Economics in the Gundam universes

[Dan the Man]

I know I'm not saying anything really groundbreaking here, but there's still the factor of the unknown technology if the future. According to UC timelines, the development of space colonies began around 2045, and given the vast amount of time and resources needed to construct such large structures is obviously no walk in the park, and the UC era begins after most of the Sides are completed, so there's an unknown gap in the timeline which could be anywhere from 50 to 500 years. (Though I like to guess around 100-200) The first colonies were quite different from the ones you see in UC 0079, so as the series progressed, technology in space construction improved, and it became easier to develop bigger and more self-sufficient colonies much easier than the first time around.
What I'm really trying to get at is that we have no idea what kinds of technological advancements will come over the next 200 years. Look at how much has changed in one century, communication, construction techniques, and all around efficiency in all manners of production are higher than they've ever been in history. Thinking that people in the future will have to adhere to the exact same method of production as we have now seems kind of pointless, as we have no idea how they'll be able to produce the same materials as we do so far in the future. I know I'm not really making a valid point in this argument, but try to give some credit to the unknown.

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by Dan the Man

What I'm really trying to get at is that we have no idea what kinds of technological advancements will come over the next 200 years. Look at how much has changed in one century, communication, construction techniques, and all around efficiency in all manners of production are higher than they've ever been in history. Thinking that people in the future will have to adhere to the exact same method of production as we have now seems kind of pointless, as we have no idea how they'll be able to produce the same materials as we do so far in the future. I know I'm not really making a valid point in this argument, but try to give some credit to the unknown.

While that's true in some areas, it's not necessarily true in others. Some areas have hardly advanced at all, while some have advanced, but in terms of efficiency rather than totally new procedures and methods.

Most of the things I'm describing (cement and concrete production, steel production, certain materials, etc.) have hardly changed at all in a long, long time. Cement has hardly changed in over 2,000 years. That's a pretty good recipe there if it's got that kind of longevity.

In terms of SEED/D, the C.E. begins after the Reconstruction War, which was the result of the exhaustion of petroleum resources.

When was that? Estimates of world petroleum reserves vary. It could be anywhere from 15 years to 50 years to 150 years. We don't know, this is very true. If it were as short as 15 years from 2003, you're talking about construction of the PLANT colonies in roughly 2050-ish. We're only 43 years from then right now. Also, there are certain things observed in the C.E. which point to it not being overly past our own current time (as if 70 years isn't long!). For example, some of the military technologies used are current (or even old!) by our standards. Two of the Earth Alliance's ship classes are currently in use today (Tarawa- and Burke- class ships). It would be rather hard to convince me that the C.E. began even 30-40 years after our own time. I think that it started around the time SEED came out, which was 2003, I believe. Some technologies are so similar to our own today that I'd feel let-down if it were really, really that far in the future. And this doesn't necessarily go against what I said earlier about not everything advancing... Technology almost always advances. Finished products, ingredients, and production methods are what I referred to. Steel is still steel, cement is still cement, copper Romex wire is still copper Romex wire, but the machines used to create them have advanced, of course.

Like I've said numerous times, we know very little about the.... Um.... "reality".... of a fictional universe such as the C.E. in SEED/D. We can only really base our arguments on educated guesses and visual observation.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Jagdpanther

We don't know anything about the depicted technology. We don't know how they do things and what certain things are capable of. Therefore we must go on visual observation and assumptions. In order to be able in any way to truly discuss the possibilities we have to mix those observations with what we DO know to be possible in our own time, as well as what is reasonably forseeable in our own future.

Actually we know a fair bit. Not the least of which is that the Cosmic Era's materials technology and construction capabilities vastly outstretch our own. It's not a stretch at all to claim that they can do many things that we can't.

Originally Posted by Jagdpanther

Oh please. I'm a writer. Spare me the logical fallacy lecture. You're just dodging now.

If you are already aware of logical fallacies, then you should know not to use them as arguments. This is not a point in your favour.

Originally Posted by Jagdpanther

Your understanding is perfectly relevant in this discussion of colony construction possibility. What you're saying flies in the face of the reality of construction. Therefore, I am taking advantage of that by explaining to you how construction works and how it would most likely work in the future, given current movement of the manual trades industries.

And I don't really care about the feasibility of advances in this field in the near future.

Originally Posted by Jagdpanther

You ARE, in fact, making assumptions that there will be material available in space with the exact qualities required for basic building without knowing what those basic qualities are with which to begin.

Not at all. I'm just saying that the possibility is there.

Originally Posted by Jagdpanther

Exactly, they can be deceiving. But we have no other information on which to base our arguments.

Sure we do. We can see the colonies functioning. It's not exactly far-fetched to assume that the builders found a way to make it work.

Originally Posted by Jagdpanther

This discussion ALLLLL goes back to whether or not the Earth-to-space transportation system depicted in Gundam SEED/D is as expensive and inaccessible as you say. My argument has been a round-about way of saying that in order for the colonies to have been built, a not-necessarily vast Earth-to-space transportation sytem must exist, but one that is accessible and inexpensive enough to warrant the construction of massive structures in space.

Your argument doesn't work to begin with: it's stated quite a few times that the only practical way of moving large amounts of material into space is by using the mass drivers. The limited number of mass drivers already dictates that space transportation is expensive.

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Actually we know a fair bit. Not the least of which is that the Cosmic Era's materials technology and construction capabilities vastly outstretch our own. It's not a stretch at all to claim that they can do many things that we can't.

Where? WHERE does the SEED/D series and spinoffs tell us about the technology and construction materials? "Well, they have massive construction capabilities" isn't good enough. We have massive construction capabilities today, comparitively. I need exact information. At least Gundam Wing had that "Gundanium" crap and you could argue that steel wasn't needed because of some fake metal they use. But I don't remember any fake materials being talked about in SEED/D.

If you are already aware of logical fallacies, then you should know not to use them as arguments. This is not a point in your favour.

Yeahmmm. >_>

And I don't really care about the feasibility of advances in this field in the near future.

That's fabulous.

Not at all. I'm just saying that the possibility is there.

Of course it's a possibility. There's a possibility for darn near everything.

Sure we do. We can see the colonies functioning. It's not exactly far-fetched to assume that the builders found a way to make it work.

Where did I say the colonies weren't possible? Obviously the construction was successful. People live there. >_>

Your argument doesn't work to begin with: it's stated quite a few times that the only practical way of moving large amounts of material into space is by using the mass drivers. The limited number of mass drivers already dictates that space transportation is expensive.

That doesn't necessarily matter. It doesn't say how expensive it is for a single use of them. It's stated that non-human cargo can be sent into space far more rapidly than human cargo because it can be accelerated over hundreds of g's, thus requiring no additional thrust to clear into satellite orbit. How expensive is that procedure? My argument is that it must be comparitively inexpensive in order for all the materials to reach the colonies while being built (and afterwards, too, as they will require Earthen material afterwards, too).

In addition to that, If you also look at the official timeline of the C.E., you notice the times at which the Coordinators begin moving en masse up to the colonies from Earth. If it's so incredibly expensive to move people, too, then I doubt all of them are going to be able to go up. Yes, I'll admit that the en masse movement begins in C.E. 55 and continues through C.E. 68, but we are not given exact numbers and it is reasonable to assume that it's millions of Coordinators, since the Coordinator population had long since exceeded ten million. Unless they're being subsidized by a nation or given a discount, I don't see 1. how that many people are affording the transport, or 2. how low-yield the mass drivers must be if they can launch all those people space-ward with the additional cost of booster rockets.

Furthermore, the offical SEED timeline, it isn't until C.E. 69 that Junius 1-7 colonies are remodeled for agricultural use (and let's not get into how they're remodeling 7 colonies in under about a year, since 7 appears complete when destroyed in February of 70). Until that time, PLANT solely relied on Earth for food production. Wow. Can you imagine, that by that time, the mass-drivers are responsible for sending food for 40+ million people into orbit? There's no way they can be supported unless the mass drivers are rather accessible.

I have acknowledged all along that mass drivers were limited, BUT... I say that they're more accessible and compartively inexpensive in order to support the PLANTs.

As with the ingredients materials I mentioned needing to have specific qualities, the mass drivers tend to be located near the equator so that the journey is a bit easier. Since they can't be placed everywhere, they're limited in location, yes, I understand. But I still say that the mass drivers have to be relatively accessible in order to support the PLANTs or to have even created them. I think the evidence speaks for itself.

Now feel free to trash me and talk about my mother for 3 days. I'm leaving to go back to college for a few days... *sigh*

[supperrfreek]

I like the concept of the space colony and although the colonies in Gundam series are giant, the construction would take a lot of resources and time. Although it seems impossible, so does welding underwater and that can be done, therefore if welding can be done in the water than it can also be done in space. Another thing is that it could probably be done using different alloys with the closest properties to steel and as much compatibility with steel construction techniques as possible. Or the attempt at producing steel in space can be done most of the matterials are there.

[Kaioshin Sama]

In U.C Gundam THE majority commodity is Helium 3, which is a critical and rare compound used to make a Minovsky-Ionesco Fusion Reactor work properly. The only place where Helium 3 is available in abundance in the Gundam Universe is on Jupiter, thus the main economoc powerhouse in Gundam is the Jupiter Energy Fleet/Jupiter Empire. Anaheim Electronics, the major contractor the Earth Federation and Zeon use in the First Universal Century for mobile suit development is also a major economic powerhouse. Lunar Titanium, Gundarium Alloy, the produce that is grown in the pods on the outer side of colonies, all of these are commodities as well.

Also in order for the AEUG to succeed and have the capacity to run an Anti-Earth Federation campaign, they also need funding from a certain Won Lee who is their major sponsor and a Von Braun City businessman. Factories and Mines on the moon are also of importance to the U.C Economic system, as were the mines in Odessa to Zeon's war effort during the One Year War. Augusta Research Labs, The Flannagan Institute, SNRI, Zeonic Corporation, MIP Company, Zimmad Company (Which later became a laughing stock) are yet more economic powerhouses in Mobile Suit and weapons production.

[supperrfreek]

Yes that type of resource is in space but until it is discovered and utilized I'm afraid that the whole concept is a dud round.

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by supperrfreek

I like the concept of the space colony and although the colonies in Gundam series are giant, the construction would take a lot of resources and time. Although it seems impossible, so does welding underwater and that can be done, therefore if welding can be done in the water than it can also be done in space. Another thing is that it could probably be done using different alloys with the closest properties to steel and as much compatibility with steel construction techniques as possible. Or the attempt at producing steel in space can be done most of the matterials are there.

I'm hijacking from a router hidden in the building in which I'm staying. ^_^

Yes, that is perfectly understandable. I acknowledge that, too. I don't think we've actually talked about that, though (the welding in space). lol

Yes, alloys could be used. But again on the steel issue, no, coke is not in space. That's one of the key ingredients in steel production. Without coke, you don't have anywhere near the efficiency of steel production as you do with coke. So they'd need to develop new processes, which is all well and good, but we're not told that they have.

I was thinking about some things in the car while driving across Pennsylvania today to the function which I am at:

1. One of the problems that I thought about was that stories naturally have holes. SEED/D is no different, and in fact it has quite a large amount of them. One of the holes in most every story is how they do just about everything mundane, like building colonies and such in SEED. Who, really, would care how they produce metals while watching an animated show featuring huge mechs duking it out, lots of flashy (pink) explosions, and the occassional girl? I know I wouldn't (normally). I wonder how this dicussion is even possible.

2. I realized while driving that I used "canon," to a degree, in my argument about concerning the offical C.E. timeline, despite earlier saying that it really had no relevancy to the discussion. My bad.

3. I'm not going to really convince of anyone of anything here on the internet, and this particular topic has taken up a large portion of my life since it started. Some of my posts have taken hours to write because I was researching things while writing them to provide for a more accurate and sound argument. So I'm just gonna stop now. I want my life back. ^^;

Hoo-ah!

[Dan the Man]

Just curious, if steel were used for colonies, would it actually be able to withstand the forces like rotation, atmosphere pressure, and the sheer weight of the earth, water and structures on top of it? It seems to me that something like Titanium or another stong alloy would be needed to make a strong structure.

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by Dan the Man

Just curious, if steel were used for colonies, would it actually be able to withstand the forces like rotation, atmosphere pressure, and the sheer weight of the earth, water and structures on top of it? It seems to me that something like Titanium or another stong alloy would be needed to make a strong structure.

Grrrr......... >_<

Gotta... Resist....

Gaaaah!

Okay, just this last one then I'm really done with this topic:

Anything can be reinforced. To put this in perspective, a standard wood joint (let's say a dowel joint) is not the strongest of joints, but it's good. If you use wood glue that joint becomes nearly unbreakable. Something else will always break before that joint even cracks. Another example is one I used before. Concrete has poor tensile strength but awesome compression strength. Adding steel Re-bar during the pouring of the concrete gives it superb tensile strength in addition to the compression strength.

Steel can be reinforced in many ways, and unless there are vast titanium deposits in space, it'd seem to be more economical to just ship coke up to space and make steel with the massive quantities of iron ore in the asteroids.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

Where? WHERE does the SEED/D series and spinoffs tell us about the technology and construction materials? "Well, they have massive construction capabilities" isn't good enough. We have massive construction capabilities today, comparitively. I need exact information. At least Gundam Wing had that "Gundanium" crap and you could argue that steel wasn't needed because of some fake metal they use. But I don't remember any fake materials being talked about in SEED/D.

You're sort of missing the forest for the trees. The colonies, ships, and so forth seen in Seed are far, far beyond what we're capable of. Hence, by inference, they are capable of using techniques that we can't; and to an incredible scale. We don't need any funky materials to determine prove anything.

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

That doesn't necessarily matter. It doesn't say how expensive it is for a single use of them. It's stated that non-human cargo can be sent into space far more rapidly than human cargo because it can be accelerated over hundreds of g's, thus requiring no additional thrust to clear into satellite orbit. How expensive is that procedure? My argument is that it must be comparitively inexpensive in order for all the materials to reach the colonies while being built (and afterwards, too, as they will require Earthen material afterwards, too).

You're talking about speed, while I'm mostly concerned with the energy requirements. There's no way of getting around the 60MJ/kg problem.

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

Furthermore, the offical SEED timeline, it isn't until C.E. 69 that Junius 1-7 colonies are remodeled for agricultural use (and let's not get into how they're remodeling 7 colonies in under about a year, since 7 appears complete when destroyed in February of 70). Until that time, PLANT solely relied on Earth for food production. Wow. Can you imagine, that by that time, the mass-drivers are responsible for sending food for 40+ million people into orbit? There's no way they can be supported unless the mass drivers are rather accessible.

The food issue isn't as great as you might imagine. It's quite possible for the it to come from either the Moon or from different orbital facilities.

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

As with the ingredients materials I mentioned needing to have specific qualities, the mass drivers tend to be located near the equator so that the journey is a bit easier. Since they can't be placed everywhere, they're limited in location, yes, I understand. But I still say that the mass drivers have to be relatively accessible in order to support the PLANTs or to have even created them. I think the evidence speaks for itself.

Sure they are. However, the mass drivers can only transport so much cargo per day, and the EA has access to just the two at Victoria and in the Panama.

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

Now feel free to trash me and talk about my mother for 3 days. I'm leaving to go back to college for a few days... *sigh*

Hmm... I'm a little bit out of practice at this. "Your mother wears army boots!" How's that?

Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama

In U.C Gundam THE majority commodity is Helium 3, which is a critical and rare compound used to make a Minovsky-Ionesco Fusion Reactor work properly. The only place where Helium 3 is available in abundance in the Gundam Universe is on Jupiter, thus the main economoc powerhouse in Gundam is the Jupiter Energy Fleet/Jupiter Empire.

If Helium-3 is the only real energy source in UC, then how is it that it never ended up getting nationalized? Why would any of the governments put their very existence in the hands of a single corporation?

Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama

Anaheim Electronics, the major contractor the Earth Federation and Zeon use in the First Universal Century for mobile suit development is also a major economic powerhouse.

The same questions go for Anaheim; no government allows a corporation in its territory to sell weapons and military secrets to its enemies (especially if they are at war), so what's the secret to Anaheim Electronics' survival?

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

Yes, alloys could be used. But again on the steel issue, no, coke is not in space. That's one of the key ingredients in steel production. Without coke, you don't have anywhere near the efficiency of steel production as you do with coke. So they'd need to develop new processes, which is all well and good, but we're not told that they have.

There's a lot of background information about all sorts of shows that we're not told. However, it's still relatively straightforward to infer. I'm rather skeptical that it's impossible to make steel from pure carbon as opposed to coke, but it's not horribly relevant.

Originally Posted by Dan the Man

Just curious, if steel were used for colonies, would it actually be able to withstand the forces like rotation, atmosphere pressure, and the sheer weight of the earth, water and structures on top of it? It seems to me that something like Titanium or another stong alloy would be needed to make a strong structure.

The colonies are far beyond our capability to build; both in terms of materials technology and sheer size. I suppose that it's possible to use steel as one of the major components, but something like the huge transparent pieces of material they use? That's way beyond what we can do.