Economics in the Gundam universes

[4Tran]

So far, of the different Gundam, I think that the Cosmic Era has one of the better portrayals of economics. Politically, as of the end of the Cosmic Era 73 war, the EA is in shambles - each constituent state is either shattered, or has serious issues with the others. PLANT has tons of its own issues to deal with, so it's unlikely to interfere very much with Earth's affairs. That leaves Orb and the other smaller Earth nations as the engines of growth and recovery.

Of the rest of the Gundam universes, the situation in Turn A is the most fascinating one: how a steam-age civilization is jump-started to spacecraft in a matter of years. However, many of the questions of how it will proceed is completely unexplored, and the question of how well the Moon will integrate with such a civilization goes unasked.

UC Gundam has some interesting ideas about economics, but I think that it's got a bunch of loopy ones as well. I'm a little unsure of the precise details, so I wonder if anyone can expand on it.

I'm pretty sure that Gundam Wing said a few interesting things about economics as well, but I can't recall anything at the moment. I'd appreciate it if anyone can fill in the details.

Of the rest, Gundam X betrays the ramifications of its premise, so there isn't much left to discuss. And the geopolitical situation in G Gundam isn't meant to be taken seriously, so it can be safely ignored for our purposes.

I believe that the following is better suited for this thread than for the original one:

Originally Posted by Jagdpanther

I am saying that in a futuristic society, the chances of two large countries (so to speak) being able to not really care about the others' politics is beyond belief, especially when they both just wiped out a large portion of the solar system's population in two large wars. It's a necessity to keep diplomatic relations with each other at a high in order to prevent such disasters from happening again.

Being isolationist isn't entirely about not caring about another country's politics. It's about not being involved with them vis a vis political or economic alliances and the such.

Originally Posted by Jagdpanther

And even all the way up until World War II, you're talking about a technologically (comparitively) poor society. Yes, there was the trans-Atlantic telephone and air travel already by then, but even so, it's nothing like today where the internet connects us instantaneously with some guy in a hut in the middle of Burma.

However, the oceans of yesteryear are very much analogous to colonies established in the lagrange points and Earth. While the exchange of ideas and communication is relatively easy, actual travel or transport of goods is anything but.

Originally Posted by Jagdpanther

You must have heard the sayings that alude to the "world is always getting smaller."

Such quips may sound neat, but they are largely irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Jagdpanther

It's rather difficult to be isolationist on Earth today. I cannot possibly imagine that 70 years from now a space society could remove themselves from the earth even in terms of just political concerns.

That's mostly because you don't seem to grasp how much of a barrier Earth's gravity actually represents. The 60MJ/kg required to put anything into space is pretty much immutable. Unless a terrestrial society has a vast amount of excess energy (and very efficient delivery vehicles), space colonies will be relatively isolated by default.

Originally Posted by Jagdpanther

It would be unwise of PLANT to think the way to avoid another Bloody Valentine War would be to just not give a crap about Earth politics.

"Hey, some dude who thinks PLANT is evil and needs to be destroyed just got elected the President of Ficitiousland on Earth. Maybe we should've paid attention sooner."

If some evil dictator were to be elected President of Russia, or the U.S., or China, there's not much the rest of the world can do short of plotting an assassination or starting a war. Globalization can do many things, but it's also got a lot of limitations.

Originally Posted by Jagdpanther

Have you heard of this lovely thing called air travel?

I was refuting your claim that "This is not the 17th, 18th, or even 19th centuries when trans-Atlantic travel took weeks." Given decent winds, it would take a little more than a week - not that much different from a Hohmann transfer.

Originally Posted by Jagdpanther

You're making the mistake (as I probably am with other things) of applying physics to this situation. The same universe we're talking about has large walking/flying/swimming mechs with god-like powers. They don't particularly explain the finer points of space travel in SEED/D but they show it enough for me to believe that in that particular universe, space travel isn't exactly something that comes with fanfare and TV cameras anymore. More or less common, while maybe not as common as planes, trains, and automobiles. >_>

Here, you're quite incorrect. While the Seed shows are quite unrealistic in some respects (especially combat), it's actually been quite consistent in treating space travel as a difficult prospect. Most cargo has to be sent into orbit using mass drivers - at last count there were only a handful of these: Victoria, Panama, Gibraltar and Orb. Otherwise, the only forms of transport are either shuttles or boosters (and they're probably not all that common either). Neither of these latter methods are particularly efficient or economical. It's nowhere nearly as easy as you make it out to be.

[monster]

For CE:

Well, I believe one of the original disagreements between PLANTs and the Earth governments was that PLANTs wanted to be politically and/or economically independent from its sponsor nations which were predominantly governed by people who are biased against Coordinators. In fact, I believe that was why Junius 7, an agricultural colony, was attacked. So this would tell me that they are capable, at least in the foreseeable future, to stand on their own and they have the means to sustain their environments.

Now if this is the case, then it wouldn't be too hard for them to choose isolation (maybe partial at first) since they're already geographically isolated as it is. The only issue would be they would probably have to eventually give up all the territories they've acquired on Earth, otherwise the probability of contact would still be higher than it should be. At any case, it is possible for now, in my opinion, to not interfere in Earth's politics much. They can still keep an ey on the Earth as well as maintaining minimal trade relations with the more favoring nations.

On the other hand, they still have the issue of maintaining their population I believe. If they can't igure out how to solve their declining birth rates in time, they may have to look to Earth for help, which may somehow get them involved with Earth again. Then again, they may have enough time to find a solution. Or Mars...

[Tak]

So far, the economic models for every Gundam series came off as highly unimaginative and unrealistic. Take CE for example, because its the most recent Gundam franchise out there.

I shall begin by stating that I am hardly convinced that Orb is in any position to be the primary influence of Earth's immediate future. How many times was Orb burnt to cinders? In contrast, despite the division of EA, we are not provided with any concrete evidence that the rest of EA were as devastated as their enemies.

Let us not even forget that Plant was but a fraction of the scope and size that was EA (in terms of manpower, industrial capacity... etc), and throughly weakened by the conclusion of the first war. Yet, by the second war, they were able to churn out so many advanced mobile suits even developed nations would be jealous! Obviously, there is an absence of a coherent economics explanation. Realistically, if CE was a real war, the EA would have won, for the sake of simple logic.

And then we get Orb. Within two years, Orb suddenly bounced back to its former glory, with enormous cities and skyscrapers. Then I was reminded that only less than five years ago, Orb was a battered wasteland.

Not to mention the way wars are engaged. It took the Russians two years to reorganize and three years to counterattack after Germany invaded in '41. Yet, it took only mere days for either EA or ZAFT to mount multiple invasions against each other! We are also talking about the enormous loss of resources here. Every single time there is a huge operation, hundreds of mobile suits would engage in the open skies, by the battle's end, hundreds of mobile suits became scrap metal. Unless EA and ZAFT somehow acquired the magical speed-build code of 'operation cwal' and/or resources by magically summoning raw materials out of the blue, the way they fight wars cannot even be considered superficially realistic (economically).

It is true, Orb actually had a much more realistic portrayal of economics in the series, but that in itself isn't saying much, if anything at all. By the latter end of Destiny, my 'realism' mindset trickled in, and kept on nudging my brain telling me "they still have mobile suits!?"

Please do not look into Gundam for creative economic ideas, its sad man, sad...

Lastly, I am reminded that Gundam is fictional.

- Tak ("The British Empire was one where the sun never sets, because God couldn't trust the Englishmen in darkness")

[Dan the Man]

I must say, of all the Gundam series I've watched over the years, Char's Counterattack and SEED Destiny were the only one which actually made a reference to economics, when Neo Zeon purchased Axis, and when Chairman Dullindal mentioned that MS were incredibly expensive. Though, it seems that the economies of those two universes are quite different, since only a few briefcases of gold were needed to completely pay for an enormous asteroid like Axis, which (I'm not sure how much a briefcase of gold bullion goes for nearly 200 years in the future...) Couldn't be much more than 1 or 2 billion dollars, give or take. That could be the equivelant of an advanced fighter jet, or a common MS in the SEED universe. ... I don't really know what I'm trying to say through all of this, but I guess you could say that economics in the Gundam universes is pretty much a useless argument. Of all the things they expand upon, economics is probably one of the last ones they'll explain.

[Nightengale]

Gundam economics are rarely portrayed well. While C.E may have a better showcase of it, itself is by no means really solid, and believable within context, unless it's somehow revealed that C.E uses the same technology as True Odyssey, where mechas can be created within a snap of a finger just with use of godly technology.

In many ways, it can be said that the strongest economical portrayal of Gundam are always better handled in the background. Take C.E's power crisis, Reconstruction War timelines, and stuff that lead to the birth of C.E as we know it for example. It gives out highlight on the importance of power source, along with the rationale of how ORB prospered, despite being a small island nation. Gundam for one, never really takes itself strongly to explore the pre-world happenings as it is at core, a mecha anime. It takes place in an interesting setting, but unless there's a Gundam-spin off that's somehow politician, historian, or even journalist (( Jess not counted )) centric, that has concepts of narrative storytelling, I don't think much of economics will ever be a strong highlight in Gundam.

I for one can mildly accept how the general war in correlation with economics is shown in a dfferent shade left and right, but sometimes, I wish they show the collapse and recovery of economic strongholds following large-scale wars. I still found it strangely perplexing that both sides had the economic front, even with the restoration of power-bases, to amass everything in line for what happened in Destiny, just within 2 years.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by monstert

Well, I believe one of the original disagreements between PLANTs and the Earth governments was that PLANTs wanted to be politically and/or economically independent from its sponsor nations which were predominantly governed by people who are biased against Coordinators. In fact, I believe that was why Junius 7, an agricultural colony, was attacked. So this would tell me that they are capable, at least in the foreseeable future, to stand on their own and they have the means to sustain their environments.

That's a very good point. With the destruction of Heliopolis, there aren't exactly a whole lot of colonies out there for PLANT to interact with. For all extents and purposes, PLANT (or any other space colony) will have to be almost completely self-sufficient. Given that we already know that PLANT has enormous manufacturing and construction capabilities, it's hard to imagine what they might absolutely need from Earth.

Originally Posted by monstert

On the other hand, they still have the issue of maintaining their population I believe. If they can't igure out how to solve their declining birth rates in time, they may have to look to Earth for help, which may somehow get them involved with Earth again. Then again, they may have enough time to find a solution. Or Mars...

This is an issue I'd love to see future Cosmic Era shows explore. However, even though it's an extremely serious problem, it's not a particularly immediate one; rather it's something that needs addressing in the 20-70 year timeframe (depending on how serious it is). In comparison, if my memory serves, Japan has had a negative birth rate since the mid-60s.

Originally Posted by Tak

So far, the economic models for every Gundam series came off as highly unimaginative and unrealistic.

Given that no Gundam universe is constructed with a mind towards realism, this is to be expected. However, that doesn't mean that all of them are equally unrealistic, nor does it mean that none of them are worth discussing.

Originally Posted by Tak

I shall begin by stating that I am hardly convinced that Orb is in any position to be the primary influence of Earth's immediate future. How many times was Orb burnt to cinders? In contrast, despite the division of EA, we are not provided with any concrete evidence that the rest of EA were as devastated as their enemies.

Orb has never been "burnt to cinders" - when the EA attacked, the only major losses in industry were the destruction of the mass driver and the Morganrete facility. The PLANT invasion forces never targetted any of the industry at all, so the damage was only superficial at best. Much of their industry and other advanced facilities were underground, and there's nothing to indicate that they suffered any damage. Besides, Orb's greatest influence isn't economic at all (we have no idea how they compare to the other Earth nations). Instead, it's primarily political.

Need I remind you that despite invasion and widespread strategic targetting of German industry, they still managed to have their highest production in 1944?

Originally Posted by Tak

Let us not even forget that Plant was but a fraction of the scope and size that was EA (in terms of manpower, industrial capacity... etc), and throughly weakened by the conclusion of the first war. Yet, by the second war, they were able to churn out so many advanced mobile suits even developed nations would be jealous! Obviously, there is an absence of a coherent economics explanation. Realistically, if CE was a real war, the EA would have won, for the sake of simple logic.

That just indicates that the major nations of the Cosmic Era have tremendous production capabilities. It's already been obvious for quite a while.

Originally Posted by Dan the Man

Though, it seems that the economies of those two universes are quite different, since only a few briefcases of gold were needed to completely pay for an enormous asteroid like Axis, which (I'm not sure how much a briefcase of gold bullion goes for nearly 200 years in the future...) Couldn't be much more than 1 or 2 billion dollars, give or take. That could be the equivelant of an advanced fighter jet, or a common MS in the SEED universe.

Was that actual gold bullion? That's hilarious! Gold is currently trading for about $21,000 USD per kilogram; and assuming that the transaction was for a tonne of gold, we're talking about $21,000,000 for the purchase of Axis! In today's terms, that won't even get you a new F-16 (a brand new F-22 will set you back about 150-250 million, depending on how you do the math). The only reasonable conclusion is that gold is much more valuable in UC than it is currently.

Astronomers have theorized that there's actually more gold in the asteroid belt than there is on Earth, and that this and other metals would be much easier to extract as well. Assuming that this is the source for Char's gold, then the situation is hard to explain without resorting to some sort of shortage and massive demand for gold in UC 0093.

By the way, I can't recall if you've seen it, but Turn A probably focuses on economics the best. We find out that the Moon's economy and infrastructure are incapable of supporting its entire population, and that the nations of North America are in the midst of the Industrial Revolution. Unfortunately, it doesn't give us much information on how things would proceed after the events of Turn A.

Originally Posted by Nightengale

I for one can mildly accept how the general war in correlation with economics is shown in a dfferent shade left and right, but sometimes, I wish they show the collapse and recovery of economic strongholds following large-scale wars. I still found it strangely perplexing that both sides had the economic front, even with the restoration of power-bases, to amass everything in line for what happened in Destiny, just within 2 years.

The only answer is massive production capabilities. Remember that, during World War II, the U.S. produced as much materiel in a single year as it currently has in its entire active military. Since the EA is much larger, it's reasonable to assume that it's industrial capability is that much greater. Given the speed of the introduction of large numbers of Daggers in the Cosmic Era 71 war, this should have already been pretty obvious.

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Being isolationist isn't entirely about not caring about another country's politics. It's about not being involved with them vis a vis political or economic alliances and the such.

Well then we've been talking about the same thing and we just didn't know it. Using two different terms for the same thing...

That's mostly because you don't seem to grasp how much of a barrier Earth's gravity actually represents. The 60MJ/kg required to put anything into space is pretty much immutable. Unless a terrestrial society has a vast amount of excess energy (and very efficient delivery vehicles), space colonies will be relatively isolated by default.

I was refuting your claim that "This is not the 17th, 18th, or even 19th centuries when trans-Atlantic travel took weeks." Given decent winds, it would take a little more than a week - not that much different from a Hohmann transfer.

Here, you're quite incorrect. While the Seed shows are quite unrealistic in some respects (especially combat), it's actually been quite consistent in treating space travel as a difficult prospect. Most cargo has to be sent into orbit using mass drivers - at last count there were only a handful of these: Victoria, Panama, Gibraltar and Orb. Otherwise, the only forms of transport are either shuttles or boosters (and they're probably not all that common either). Neither of these latter methods are particularly efficient or economical. It's nowhere nearly as easy as you make it out to be.

I simply turn to this:

There's a lot of man made stuff floating around space in C.E. It had to get there somehow. And yes there are space-borne production facilities, but there is a lot of stuff needed to make those colonies, space stations, lunar facilities, etc. which had to come from Earth. I think it's slightly wrong to say that space travel is shown quite well in SEED when, in less than 70 years, which technology growing all the time, that ALLLLLL that was created.

I'm not disagreeing that space travel is difficult. I'm saying in the C.E., technology would have to regress in order to fit your bill.

We've been working on the ISS for quite some time now. It's not easy to put together. How much has space travel really progressed since the space shuttle came into existence? In terms of C.E., to accomplish what they did, there needs to be some mighty advanced forms of travel that are relatively easy to use and efficient to contruct ALLLLLLL of that in under 70 years. At the start of SEED there's a whopping 120 colonies in PLANT alone. That requires quite a bit of time and resources. To outfit those colonies with certain things, you need a lot of material from Earth. I don't believe mining in space is described well in SEED, but consider the aggregate required for modern building materials. Certain materials alone cannot exist in space because space doesn't provide the conditions necessary to form certain rocks and minerals.

I'm just saying, in order to build and outfit all those locales in space in C.E., there has to be a method of space travel that is fairly efficient, cheap, and easy to use. What you describe seems to be a regression from what I believe would be required.

Yes, they may, in fact, have massive production capabilities, but you can't "produce" many of the materials they'd need to even manufacture the colonies, let alone outfit them. And outfitting them... Holy Hell! The dimension stone and aggregate needed to outfit the colonies is beyond my ability to calculate. SOME of the aggregate could come from space, as well as some of the minerals, but so much of the dimension stone and aggregate would need to come from Earth. NEED TO.

And let's not forget the amount of people living in space. If it were so ridiculously expensive to travel to space, I'd be shocked if there really were millions upon millions of Coordinators in space. Unless they're breeding like rabbits, you can't just send up a few tens of thousands worth of people and then populate 120 colonies to hundreds-of-thousands of people each. America didn't grow to 300+ million people overnight. It took time. And it didn't require space travel.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Jagdpanther

Well then we've been talking about the same thing and we just didn't know it. Using two different terms for the same thing...

Hmm... I thought I was being fairly clear when I used the U.S. as my example of isolationism. It's okay, I wanted to start a thread about economics anyways.

Originally Posted by Jagdpanther

There's a lot of man made stuff floating around space in C.E. It had to get there somehow. And yes there are space-borne production facilities, but there is a lot of stuff needed to make those colonies, space stations, lunar facilities, etc. which had to come from Earth. I think it's slightly wrong to say that space travel is shown quite well in SEED when, in less than 70 years, which technology growing all the time, that ALLLLLL that was created.

I'm not disagreeing that space travel is difficult. I'm saying in the C.E., technology would have to regress in order to fit your bill.

We shall see how true this is...

Originally Posted by Jagdpanther

We've been working on the ISS for quite some time now. It's not easy to put together. How much has space travel really progressed since the space shuttle came into existence?

Very little. The ISS was largely built using '70s technology, and while there have been improvements in some areas, most of our heavy lift capability has actually regressed from that period. Currently, no country can put a person on the Moon. In any case, the ISS masses a mere 200 tons - it's hardly a shining example of technological progress.

Originally Posted by Jagdpanther

In terms of C.E., to accomplish what they did, there needs to be some mighty advanced forms of travel that are relatively easy to use and efficient to contruct ALLLLLLL of that in under 70 years. At the start of SEED there's a whopping 120 colonies in PLANT alone. That requires quite a bit of time and resources. To outfit those colonies with certain things, you need a lot of material from Earth. I don't believe mining in space is described well in SEED, but consider the aggregate required for modern building materials. Certain materials alone cannot exist in space because space doesn't provide the conditions necessary to form certain rocks and minerals.

It's much more efficient to mine, refine and build using raw materials found in space. There are a fair number of asteroids at the lagrange points (after all, the reason they're used for colonies is because they have very stable orbits), so they can be used for construction. Also, material can be gotten from the Moon where only 2.8MJ are required to send a kilogram of cargo into orbit. Heck, energy-wise, it's more efficient to gather material from the asteroids and bring them to the lagrange points than it would be to get them from the Earth. I would imagine that much of the start-up materials do originate from Earth, but since this amount only needs to be sufficient to get the project going, it's probably a very modest figure compared to the total. Hence, there's no need for any massive amount of heavy-lift capability beyond what we already saw in the shows.

I don't think that a lack of the proper types of metals are much of an issue. Just about all terrestrial substances can be found in space, and in both purer concentrations and easier-to-extract forms as well. The only exception would be substances that have an organic origin (such as petroleum).

As a side note, if I recall correctly, most of the UC Gundam colonies were built using materials gathered on-site. In Seed itself, we can see that asteroids were used in the construction of quite a few structures: A Baoa Qu, Artemis, etc.

Originally Posted by Jagdpanther

I'm just saying, in order to build and outfit all those locales in space in C.E., there has to be a method of space travel that is fairly efficient, cheap, and easy to use. What you describe seems to be a regression from what I believe would be required.

The problem is that you're assuming that most of the material used in building the colonies has to be lifted from the Earth. This is simply not the case.

Originally Posted by Jagdpanther

Yes, they may, in fact, have massive production capabilities, but you can't "produce" many of the materials they'd need to even manufacture the colonies, let alone outfit them. And outfitting them... Holy Hell! The dimension stone and aggregate needed to outfit the colonies is beyond my ability to calculate. SOME of the aggregate could come from space, as well as some of the minerals, but so much of the dimension stone and aggregate would need to come from Earth. NEED TO.

Actually, space is actually extremely rich in lots of resources, and you can build just about everything you'd need. Most of the (real-world) proposals for space colonies rely on construction using those resources for everything from high-quality metals to fuels to water and so on. Such proposals have to rely on local resources because getting them from Earth is simply so inefficient. Given sufficient materials technology and the proper equipment, these structures aren't all that far-fetched.

Originally Posted by Jagdpanther

And let's not forget the amount of people living in space. If it were so ridiculously expensive to travel to space, I'd be shocked if there really were millions upon millions of Coordinators in space. Unless they're breeding like rabbits, you can't just send up a few tens of thousands worth of people and then populate 120 colonies to hundreds-of-thousands of people each. America didn't grow to 300+ million people overnight. It took time. And it didn't require space travel.

There are fewer than 50 million Coordinators in PLANT. Assuming 10 tonnes to account for each person and the supplies and what not to support him, you're only looking at a maximum of 500 million tonnes spread out over several decades. In comparison, the port of Singapore sees about 1 billion tons of cargo every year.


By the way, if you're interested at a more detailed Gundam-like solar system, you might want to check out Dream Pod 9's Jovian Suns series of games.

[Dan the Man]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Was that actual gold bullion? That's hilarious! Gold is currently trading for about $21,000 USD per kilogram; and assuming that the transaction was for a tonne of gold, we're talking about $21,000,000 for the purchase of Axis! In today's terms, that won't even get you a new F-16 (a brand new F-22 will set you back about 150-250 million, depending on how you do the math). The only reasonable conclusion is that gold is much more valuable in UC than it is currently.

Astronomers have theorized that there's actually more gold in the asteroid belt than there is on Earth, and that this and other metals would be much easier to extract as well. Assuming that this is the source for Char's gold, then the situation is hard to explain without resorting to some sort of shortage and massive demand for gold in UC 0093.

By the way, I can't recall if you've seen it, but Turn A probably focuses on economics the best. We find out that the Moon's economy and infrastructure are incapable of supporting its entire population, and that the nations of North America are in the midst of the Industrial Revolution. Unfortunately, it doesn't give us much information on how things would proceed after the events of Turn A.

Yeah, as far as I know, Cameron Bloom looks at the gold in the briefcases, about 10 or 20 of them, filled with gold bars, so I guess they were about as pure as you can get. But maybe the fact that 3 major wars within 14 years would probably brig the economy of the Earth Sphere to it's knees. If MS are as expensive as fighter jets are today, chances are the deficits after the One Year War alone was probably in multiple trillions of dollars, so maybe a few suitcases of gold for a hollowed out rock with thrusters seemed like a good idea at the time.

And I haven't seen Turn A yet, but I plan to as soon as I can find it.

[Crusader]

I hardly find CE's economics believable. As many have pointed out.

The devistating war, and the ability to go another consecutive round in only two years. i won't go into detail.

I agree with 4tran on Gundam x's betrayal. Everyone spat how they didn't have the resources for another war, but it happened and they didn't seem to have any problems.

in gundam wing, they put emphasis on oz utilizing the resources in outer space. Especially all of those asteriod mining facilites, as well as the moon. Oz used a lot of spaces resources, which was part of the reason for the artemis revolution.

i can't speak much for uc, but i do know that by the time victory rolled around the earth it'self was lacking a lot of resources.

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Very little.

Exactly.

It's much more efficient to mine, refine and build using raw materials found in space. There are a fair number of asteroids at the lagrange points (after all, the reason they're used for colonies is because they have very stable orbits), so they can be used for construction. Also, material can be gotten from the Moon where only 2.8MJ are required to send a kilogram of cargo into orbit. Heck, energy-wise, it's more efficient to gather material from the asteroids and bring them to the lagrange points than it would be to get them from the Earth. I would imagine that much of the start-up materials do originate from Earth, but since this amount only needs to be sufficient to get the project going, it's probably a very modest figure compared to the total. Hence, there's no need for any massive amount of heavy-lift capability beyond what we already saw in the shows.

You cannot find everything you'll need in space. I concede that ore mining in space may, in fact, be more effcient and even what we, in reality, will eventually have to turn to for our own ore and minerals. However...

I don't think that a lack of the proper types of metals are much of an issue. Just about all terrestrial substances can be found in space, and in both purer concentrations and easier-to-extract forms as well. The only exception would be substances that have an organic origin (such as petroleum).

Yes, it would be. Let's take.... Limestone.

Do you realize the sheer amount of limestone required to make cement? Unless the Coordinators have found a replacement for something the Romans developed and we still use today (okay, so Portland cement is, admitedly, newer), I doubt there will be much in the way of buildings inside the colonies. And how about roads? If the Coordinators are smart, they'll be using concrete roadways in great thickness because they last far longer than asphalt. Per mile of 2-lane road there is over 20,000 tons of aggregate (commonly sand, gravel, and limestone) let alone the limestone required to make the cement used in making concrete.


Let's continue with limestone. Suppose space-dwellers would like to, hmm.... Brush their teeth. String some fiber-optic cable. Maybe make some brake pads for their cars. Or, maybe they just want to make some glass for a coffee table. Guess what you need? Limestone. And a lot of it. Where are you going to find limestone in space when it needs to be formed by weather patterns, deposition of sediments, biogenic activity, and precipitation from solution? Last time I checked, there aren't rain storms in the asteroid belt or on the moon. It is possible that Mars and Jupiter have some forms of sedimentary rocks on them, but, as far as I know, that has yet to be proven. SEED, probably by accident, shows that Jupiter has sedimentary rocks by having that fossil thingy that they show in conjunction with George Glenn. But are the colonies really going to get all that sedimentary rock from Jupiter (if there is even the right kind)?

Junius 7, would require, as an agricultural colony, immense amounts of dolomite (another sedimentary rock). And that would far surpass the construction phase. It would be required constantly for fertilization. Sandstone is a classic sedimentary rock that would be needed. And then there's shale, which eventually becomes the metamorphic rock known as slate. Slate is a key building material with uses from roofing to wall covering to floor tiling. Billards tables are almost always made with slate surfaces.

Where are you going to find these rocks in space? Oh, of course space-dwellers are smart enough to change how it's been done for centuries because there is no other way to do it, right? Of course.

I used to be a minining engineering student and have since moved into Supply Chain & Information Systems. I've spent most of my college life in mining engineering, and did an internship at quarry. The sheer volume of work we did at the quarry per day is staggering. To make the world run with quarried materials (it was a limestone quarry) is a massive job. Agrgregates such as limestone and dolomite cannot be found in deep space, though possibly on other planets. They'd have to come from the Earth. Without those rocks, the colonies cannot be outfitted with anything. The metals may be able to be mined and produced in space, but nothing required to actually outfit the colonies.

And I would suppose the space-dwellers want things to look nice so they'll probably want some classic dimension stone, too, such as marble or granite. I doubt you'll be finding any marble in space because it comes from the metamorphism of, you guessed it, limestone.

I cede that the colony can be easily built using materials from space, but outfitting the colony would be near impossible without massive imports from earth. You're not going to be finding much in the way of sedimentary rocks. Again, I suppose Jupiter, in C.E., has sedimentary rocks given that fossil found by Glenn, but what kind of rocks do they have? That appears to be a type of shale. Do they have slate? How about limestone or dolomite? These are all rocks required in unbelievably huge quantities to make the world run.

As a side note, if I recall correctly, most of the UC Gundam colonies were built using materials gathered on-site. In Seed itself, we can see that asteroids were used in the construction of quite a few structures: A Baoa Qu, Artemis, etc.

This all comes back to realism. No one in the creativity department is paid to think of this, nor should they if they want to make an interesting storyline instead of explaining how a problem that a person like myself, an ex-mining engineering student, would only think of. And I suppose I want to know as much as possible about the state of C.E.'s space travel because I am now a Supply Chain & Information Systems major, someone who's in charge of getting everything from point A to point B quickly and efficiently.

[The problem is that you're assuming that most of the material used in building the colonies has to be lifted from the Earth. This is simply not the case.

Or not.

But again, the "colony" may be built using only space-borne metals and production facilities, but to outfit any colony, you're going to need a lot of things only available on Earth, such as quarried rocks, dirt (otherwise known as "earth" ), people (hey, kids don't really grow up overnight though parents may think so), and many other things.

Taking a quick jab at the people aspect. There are 120 colonies in PLANT alone. How many electricians, plumbers, HVAC technicians, carpenters, masons, welders, machinists, locksmiths, and Heavy Equipment Operators (HEOs) would be required to outfit a colony? Heliopolis (I know, not PLANT) seemed to me to be a rather sizeable colony. Can you imagine the amount of tradesmen required to install all the wire, pipes, door frames, and dead bolts in New York City from scratch? Now lets multiply that by 120. That is decades worth of work by a single crew, unless..... Thousands upon thousands of tradesmen were cheaply and efficiently moved up into space to work on multiple colonies at a time.

Which, in a very round about way, makes me think of how the Coordinators ever kicked the naturals out of PLANT. I highly, highly doubt there are enough Coordinators, even in C.E. 70, who are in the aforementioned trades to outfit tens of colonies at one time. Now rewind to the early C.E. when the space colonies of all nations were being built. There is NO WAY the colonies of PLANT could be completed without massive Natural support. And then they finish the colonies and the Coordinators turn around say, "Get the **** out" and give the Naturals the boot.

Kind of reminds me of that scene in Clerks where Dante and Randall are discussing the fate of the independent contractors on the Second Death Star when it blew up. ^_^

Actually, space is actually extremely rich in lots of resources, and you can build just about everything you'd need.

I would have to say no.

Most of the (real-world) proposals for space colonies rely on construction using those resources for everything from high-quality metals to fuels to water and so on. Such proposals have to rely on local resources because getting them from Earth is simply so inefficient. Given sufficient materials technology and the proper equipment, these structures aren't all that far-fetched.

I seem to remember seeing roads, toothpaste, and glass in the colonies. Don't know where in space you're going to find all that limestone. ^_^

There are fewer than 50 million Coordinators in PLANT. Assuming 10 tonnes to account for each person and the supplies and what not to support him, you're only looking at a maximum of 500 million tonnes spread out over several decades. In comparison, the port of Singapore sees about 1 billion tons of cargo every year.

Ten tonnes per person? Hooooooooo........ Yeah....... Can you say "low-ball?"

I cannot even fathom the amount of material required per person to build a colony, let alone the entire mass of the colony as a whole.

By the way, if you're interested at a more detailed Gundam-like solar system, you might want to check out Dream Pod 9's Jovian Suns series of games.

I might have to. It'll be interesting to see how what I said is addressed (if at all).

[Tak]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Given that no Gundam universe is constructed with a mind towards realism, this is to be expected. However, that doesn't mean that all of them are equally unrealistic, nor does it mean that none of them are worth discussing.

Humor me, but I don't believe I have ever come across a viable economics theory proposed in Gundam, if any, at all.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Orb has never been "burnt to cinders" - when the EA attacked, the only major losses in industry were the destruction of the mass driver and the Morganrete facility. The PLANT invasion forces never targetted any of the industry at all, so the damage was only superficial at best. Much of their industry and other advanced facilities were underground, and there's nothing to indicate that they suffered any damage. Besides, Orb's greatest influence isn't economic at all (we have no idea how they compare to the other Earth nations). Instead, it's primarily political.

Actually, now that I think about it, we were never given a proper assessment of the specific areas of invasion by EA forces. However, we do know that Orb's capital was decimated at least twice, not to mention they lost nearly their entire cabinet during the first war. I am not convinced that they could rebuild all their losses within 2 years time, especially with the lack of a government! By the second war, Cagali was STILL trying to consolidate her power within Orb! Everything in Orb during Destiny just screams 'inefficient'.

Not to mention, Orb's national territory was TINY to begin with (smaller than Japan, even). How many serious industrial centers do they really have? Certainly not many.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Need I remind you that despite invasion and widespread strategic targetting of German industry, they still managed to have their highest production in 1944?

Yes, but keep in mind by then Germany was still largely untouched (unlike Orb, being bombed left and right). Moreover, their effort had a serious trade-off, the lack of propellant comes to mind. Planes can't take off, tanks can't roll. You've got thousands of ME262s on the ground that couldn't fly due to the lack of fuel. By then, whatever 'production' Germany had, it lacked a practical value.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That just indicates that the major nations of the Cosmic Era have tremendous production capabilities. It's already been obvious for quite a while.

And I've also stated that by a logical (realistic) standpoint, that would not have been possible.

- Tak "800 years of war, famine, pillage and rape, and who did that to us? The English! And what do we Irish do as a people? We sail to their isle, lookin fer werk!"

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by Tak

Yes, but keep in mind by then Germany was still largely untouched (unlike Orb, being bombed left and right). Moreover, their effort had a serious trade-off, the lack of propellant comes to mind. Planes can't take off, tanks can't roll. You've got thousands of ME262s on the ground that couldn't fly due to the lack of fuel. By then, whatever 'production' Germany had, it lacked a practical value.

I did an honors paper on that freshman year. ^_^

"How Oil Won (or Lost, if you're Germany) the War in Europe."

^^;

I remember that presentation. That was a tough one.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Dan the Man

Yeah, as far as I know, Cameron Bloom looks at the gold in the briefcases, about 10 or 20 of them, filled with gold bars, so I guess they were about as pure as you can get. But maybe the fact that 3 major wars within 14 years would probably brig the economy of the Earth Sphere to it's knees. If MS are as expensive as fighter jets are today, chances are the deficits after the One Year War alone was probably in multiple trillions of dollars, so maybe a few suitcases of gold for a hollowed out rock with thrusters seemed like a good idea at the time.

If the Federation was that badly in debt, then a ton of gold is only a drop in the bucket. I have no idea how this was supposed to represent a large amount of capital.

If we assume that the Federation lost 20,000 mobile suits worth the equivalent of $100 million USD each over the course of those 14 years, then that's equal to $2 trillion or $143 billion per year. In comparison, the US military budget for 2007 is $439 billion - not counting the funding for wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (they're covered by supplementary spending bills; the amount for 2007 is supposed to be $124 billion).

Originally Posted by Crusader

I agree with 4tran on Gundam x's betrayal. Everyone spat how they didn't have the resources for another war, but it happened and they didn't seem to have any problems.

I'll say. Given that over 90% of humanity had supposedly just perished, I'd imagine that it would be a struggle just to survive. But what do we get? A world that has far less signs of that than say, the aftermath of the Spanish Civil War. And in the latter part of the show, the creators just about ignored their original premise.

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

Let's continue with limestone. Suppose space-dwellers would like to, hmm.... Brush their teeth. String some fiber-optic cable. Maybe make some brake pads for their cars. Or, maybe they just want to make some glass for a coffee table. Guess what you need? Limestone. And a lot of it. Where are you going to find limestone in space when it needs to be formed by weather patterns, deposition of sediments, biogenic activity, and precipitation from solution?

You're assuming that we use limestone to make these products because it's the only substance that can be used for such purposes. The opposite is true: we use limestone precisely because it's cheap and available. It's not exactly impossible to substitute another substance for the similar uses - we only don't do it because it's not economical. Moreover, if limestone is truly indispensable, then it's possible to make it.

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

Where are you going to find these rocks in space? Oh, of course space-dwellers are smart enough to change how it's been done for centuries because there is no other way to do it, right? Of course.

Precisely. We've been using the old techniques because they've been the most economical. In space, they wouldn't be, so we'll either develop new ones, or we wouldn't live out there. Why did you put together such interesting points if you already knew the answer?

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

Taking a quick jab at the people aspect. There are 120 colonies in PLANT alone. How many electricians, plumbers, HVAC technicians, carpenters, masons, welders, machinists, locksmiths, and Heavy Equipment Operators (HEOs) would be required to outfit a colony? Heliopolis (I know, not PLANT) seemed to me to be a rather sizeable colony. Can you imagine the amount of tradesmen required to install all the wire, pipes, door frames, and dead bolts in New York City from scratch? Now lets multiply that by 120. That is decades worth of work by a single crew, unless..... Thousands upon thousands of tradesmen were cheaply and efficiently moved up into space to work on multiple colonies at a time.

I agree, and I pointed out what would be needed to support them out there. I'd also imagine that much of the work would be done using robotics and other heavy machinery. Remember that this civilization is capable of massive 30km structures massing hundreds of millions of tons. Their materials technology and construction capability must be absolutely incredible.

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

Which, in a very round about way, makes me think of how the Coordinators ever kicked the naturals out of PLANT. I highly, highly doubt there are enough Coordinators, even in C.E. 70, who are in the aforementioned trades to outfit tens of colonies at one time. Now rewind to the early C.E. when the space colonies of all nations were being built. There is NO WAY the colonies of PLANT could be completed without massive Natural support. And then they finish the colonies and the Coordinators turn around say, "Get the **** out" and give the Naturals the boot.

It's hard to say exactly how many personnel would have been required to build the PLANTs because of the enormous amount of automation that had to have been used. It's pretty much inconceivable given our current technology. Coordinators have always been stated as the vast majority of PLANT's occupants from the very get go, and it's not an utterly implausible explanation, so there's no need to assume that they kicked the Naturals out.

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

I would have to say no.

I'm afraid that you're quite wrong. Every single plausible idea for space colonization precludes the use of massive amount of material from Earth. A much better source for construction material is the Moon. Read up on O'Neill - he's the guy who first thought up the concept of cylindrical colonies at the lagrange points.

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

Ten tonnes per person? Hooooooooo........ Yeah....... Can you say "low-ball?"

I cannot even fathom the amount of material required per person to build a colony, let alone the entire mass of the colony as a whole.

That's just the amount to get everybody off the ground and to sustain them for a period of time. I'm not counting what would be required to build the colonies themselves since they would mostly be built from material already in space. I also left out whatever material that would be required from Earth to build the colonies.

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

I might have to. It'll be interesting to see how what I said is addressed (if at all).

I'm afraid not. They already assume that the ideas of O'Neill and his adherents are workable, and the story itself takes place long after the era of colonization. It's also a very high-tech (in a hard-SF manner) civilization where the nations have already terraformed Mars and Venus. On the other hand, it's still worth looking at since it's basically a much more realistic version of UC Gundam (one of their Exo-Armors even looks just like Neue Ziel).

Originally Posted by Tak

Humor me, but I don't believe I have ever come across a viable economics theory proposed in Gundam, if any, at all.

Huh? There probably hasn't been a single viable economics theory proposed in any anime.

Originally Posted by Tak

Actually, now that I think about it, we were never given a proper assessment of the specific areas of invasion by EA forces. However, we do know that Orb's capital was decimated at least twice, not to mention they lost nearly their entire cabinet during the first war. I am not convinced that they could rebuild all their losses within 2 years time, especially with the lack of a government! By the second war, Cagali was STILL trying to consolidate her power within Orb! Everything in Orb during Destiny just screams 'inefficient'.

Actually, it's quite clear that the oligarchies remained in power much as before. Cagalli had to try to consolidate power because they were largely trying to take her power away.

Originally Posted by Tak

Not to mention, Orb's national territory was TINY to begin with (smaller than Japan, even). How many serious industrial centers do they really have? Certainly not many.

Most of the industry would be untouched since the EA wanted to capture it intact. We also see that their underground facilities are quite extensive.

Originally Posted by Tak

Yes, but keep in mind by then Germany was still largely untouched (unlike Orb, being bombed left and right). Moreover, their effort had a serious trade-off, the lack of propellant comes to mind.

Since you were talking about materiel production, it's pointless to try to shift the topic to questions of fuel. Besides, Orb was attacked for a grand total of about 4(!) days throughout both wars - about 3 days in the EA invasion, and a single day for the PLANT invasion. Moreover, both attacks focused their efforts towards destroying military assets, not economic ones. Most of the damage done to Orb's infrastructure was by Uzumi's self-inflicted detonations.

In comparison, the Ruhr was being bombed by thousands of heavy bombers on a daily basis from 1943 on. You can't be serious in trying to claim that the former inflicted more economic damage than the latter.

Originally Posted by Tak

And I've also stated that by a logical (realistic) standpoint, that would not have been possible.

We're talking about a civilization that can build several-hundred-million ton structures in space relatively quickly. Logically speaking, building a thousand mobile suits is trivial in comparison.

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

"How Oil Won (or Lost, if you're Germany) the War in Europe."

^^;

I remember that presentation. That was a tough one.

I'm not surprised that this would be difficult to present. Germany effectively lost World War II in 1941, and largely due to their strategic incompetence. Oil's just the last nail in the coffin.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Huh? There probably hasn't been a single viable economics theory proposed in any anime.

Yes, but you also said "I think that the Cosmic Era has one of the better portrayals of economics".

Which is something I disagree with.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Actually, it's quite clear that the oligarchies remained in power much as before. Cagalli had to try to consolidate power because they were largely trying to take her power away.

I do not believe everyone was out there to get her. It looked as if Cagali (being part of the oligarchies herself) and the other Oligarchies were simply vying for power. The others had an upper-hand but eventually stepped down after that bride-jacking fiasco. Cagali was at a disadvantage after making obviously bad political decisions, and left the power vacuum for others to fulfill. Nothing more.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Most of the industry would be untouched since the EA wanted to capture it intact. We also see that their underground facilities are quite extensive.

No. The EA wanted Orb as an ally, but once that was no longer possible, the EA opted for their launching capabilities instead. We are shown pretty clearly that EA had no problem destroying Orb's population centers. The first few minutes of Destiny was pretty obvious. Why Shinn and his family had to escape? Because EA was attacking cities directly. There are no evidence suggesting that EA only concentrated on Orb military facilities, since they purposely targeted civilian centers as well.

Moreover, despite Orb's underground manufacturing capabilities, they are still tiny compared to EA or Zaft, and where the hell are they going to acquire their raw materials? Logically, they'd require massive imports to be able to maintain their level of productivity in Destiny. Quite difficult when most of the world turned against Orb.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Since you were talking about materiel production, it's pointless to try to shift the topic to questions of fuel. Besides, Orb was attacked for a grand total of about 4(!) days throughout both wars - about 3 days in the EA invasion, and a single day for the PLANT invasion. Moreover, both attacks focused their efforts towards destroying military assets, not economic ones. Most of the damage done to Orb's infrastructure was by Uzumi's self-inflicted detonations.

I really don't know where you got the number of days from. In the first war, with Uzumi detonated the launching facilities after sending Cagali into space, am I supposed to immediately believe that EA stopped attacking Orb proper? I don't think so.

As I stated earlier, the EA had no problems attacking Orb's population centers, and they did.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

We're talking about a civilization that can build several-hundred-million ton structures in space relatively quickly. Logically speaking, building a thousand mobile suits is trivial in comparison.

Does not matter, I am still hardly convinced that the world could suddenly rebuild itself so quickly after being totally devastated two years prior. Not to mention the speed they conduct wars. Immense invasions are conducted almost only a weekly basis, total destruction on various parts of the world is a frequent sight, and by the grace of fictional miracles, they managed to keep the war going in full scale. The battles weren't isolated as well, we are talking about dozens of Eastern-Front type battles being fought daily!

- Tak

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Tak

Yes, but you also said "I think that the Cosmic Era has one of the better portrayals of economics".

Which is something I disagree with.

I did say that, but it was specifically in relation to the rest of the Gundam shows. Also, that doesn't mean that the Cosmic Era shows went out of its way to propose any sort of economics theory. In this case, "portrayal" only refers to the economic activity that we can either observe or infer from the shows.

Originally Posted by Tak

I do not believe everyone was out there to get her. It looked as if Cagali (being part of the oligarchies herself) and the other Oligarchies were simply vying for power. The others had an upper-hand but eventually stepped down after that bride-jacking fiasco. Cagali was at a disadvantage after making obviously bad political decisions, and left the power vacuum for others to fulfill. Nothing more.

They didn't have to be out to get Cagalli. In fact, I sort feel that they liked having her as a figurehead. The thing is, she has a certain amount of power, and the oligarchies wanted to use it for their own purposes. It's equivalent to taking her power away.

Originally Posted by Tak

No. The EA wanted Orb as an ally, but once that was no longer possible, the EA opted for their launching capabilities instead. We are shown pretty clearly that EA had no problem destroying Orb's population centers. The first few minutes of Destiny was pretty obvious. Why Shinn and his family had to escape? Because EA was attacking cities directly. There are no evidence suggesting that EA only concentrated on Orb military facilities, since they purposely targeted civilian centers as well.

Alternatively, Shinn had to evacuate because Uzumi knew that Coordinators would suffer under EA authority.

The EA's goal in attacking Orb was to capture it's mass driver and all attendant support structures intact. Why then would you assume that they would target either the infrastructure or population centers? The only reason to attack either is to deny them to their enemy. However, the OMNI forces were sent there to occupy Orb, and they had an overwhelming military advantage, so why would they need to resort to such tactics?

Originally Posted by Tak

Moreover, despite Orb's underground manufacturing capabilities, they are still tiny compared to EA or Zaft, and where the hell are they going to acquire their raw materials? Logically, they'd require massive imports to be able to maintain their level of productivity in Destiny. Quite difficult when most of the world turned against Orb.

So? They'd need to export raw materials from abroad from the very beginning. Their relatively strong economy suggests that this has never been much of an issue. Besides, why would you say "most of the world turned against Orb"? I don't recall this ever happening.

Originally Posted by Tak

I really don't know where you got the number of days from. In the first war, with Uzumi detonated the launching facilities after sending Cagali into space, am I supposed to immediately believe that EA stopped attacking Orb proper? I don't think so.

You were trying say that Orb was "being bombed left and right", and trying to somehow contort that into it suffering more than Germany did from the Allied bombing campaign. Pointing out that the timeframe wherein Orb was attacked adds up to only a few days should dispel any notion of that.

Uzumi only destroyed his assets when they had completely run out of military options - i.e. the Orb had nothing left to fight with. Why would OMNI continue attacking at that point?

Originally Posted by Tak

Does not matter, I am still hardly convinced that the world could suddenly rebuild itself so quickly after being totally devastated two years prior. Not to mention the speed they conduct wars. Immense invasions are conducted almost only a weekly basis, total destruction on various parts of the world is a frequent sight, and by the grace of fictional miracles, they managed to keep the war going in full scale. The battles weren't isolated as well, we are talking about dozens of Eastern-Front type battles being fought daily!

I wasn't talking about the world being rebuilt. I was referring to just Orb. The ability to rapidly produce colonies makes the ability to rapidly produce mobile suits look trivial in comparison.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I did say that, but it was specifically in relation to the rest of the Gundam shows. Also, that doesn't mean that the Cosmic Era shows went out of its way to propose any sort of economics theory. In this case, "portrayal" only refers to the economic activity that we can either observe or infer from the shows.

I did not accuse CE of producing any economics theory. The summary of my previous statement should be a simple one, "Gundam economics are BS, they are highly unrealistic and unimaginative".

Originally Posted by 4Tran

They didn't have to be out to get Cagalli. In fact, I sort feel that they liked having her as a figurehead. The thing is, she has a certain amount of power, and the oligarchies wanted to use it for their own purposes. It's equivalent to taking her power away.

Eh? Its more like Cagali's faction vs. others. Cagali made a horrid political choice and thus lost the upper-hand. She had a degree of autonomy in the beginning but she screwed that up. She could have allied with PLANT and that would have had half of the oligarchies writhing in pain.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Alternatively, Shinn had to evacuate because Uzumi knew that Coordinators would suffer under EA authority.

Along with other non-coordinator human beings. As if the EA would go through the trouble separating the coordinators from the normal population. No, they were bombing entire cities, and having fun while doing it.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The EA's goal in attacking Orb was to capture it's mass driver and all attendant support structures intact. Why then would you assume that they would target either the infrastructure or population centers? The only reason to attack either is to deny them to their enemy. However, the OMNI forces were sent there to occupy Orb, and they had an overwhelming military advantage, so why would they need to resort to such tactics?

Urm, no, I did not say they purposely targeted population centers. I merely stated that they had no problems attacking them, and they did. Moreover, a lot of cities were in harms way during the first and second wars, some, I doubt had any serious military value. Orb wasn't big to begin with, its an archipelago with military bases intertwined with population centers. Attacking Orb anywhere is akin to attacking its population. A small battle could send a shock-wave throughout the entire nation.

So why would they need to resort to such tactics? You tell me. As they did exactly what you thought they wouldn't do.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

So? They'd need to export raw materials from abroad from the very beginning. Their relatively strong economy suggests that this has never been much of an issue. Besides, why would you say "most of the world turned against Orb"? I don't recall this ever happening.

A strong economy based on massive imports. Once that source is cut off, there would be no chance for Orb's continued survival as a military power. Orb could only rely on stock materials and weapons when things go bad with no chance of replenishing their supplies quickly enough to fend off any major invasion.

As for it never been much of an issue? Wrong. They were indeed issues to Orb. They retreated to space during the first war (and second) because they knew they couldn't hold any longer on the ground, and had to resort to hit-n-run tactics in order to bid their time. Well, they were highly successful in that, instigating major battles between EA and PLANT.

And "most of the world turned against Orb"? Lets see, besides a handful of neutral countries and Plant friendlies, most of the nations on Earth belonged to EA.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

You were trying say that Orb was "being bombed left and right", and trying to somehow contort that into it suffering more than Germany did from the Allied bombing campaign. Pointing out that the timeframe wherein Orb was attacked adds up to only a few days should dispel any notion of that.

Given the scale of battles fought in CE and the almost reckless use of WDMs, yes, I stand by my point.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Uzumi only destroyed his assets when they had completely run out of military options - i.e. the Orb had nothing left to fight with. Why would OMNI continue attacking at that point?

Then comes the issue of occupation, re-organizing whatever assets EA could muster from the battered wasteland of Orb. Also dealing with sporadic resistance groups that may be present. I have very good reasons to believe that Orb was occupied up to a point.

You pretty much answered yourself with "Orb had nothing to fight with". You are right. So if you said this, I do not know why you would insist on Orb being a major center of influence after the second war, even if it was to be a politically one. Political influence without a military institution to enforce it (even during peacetime) is a pretty useless one.

- Tak

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

You're assuming that we use limestone to make these products because it's the only substance that can be used for such purposes. The opposite is true: we use limestone precisely because it's cheap and available. It's not exactly impossible to substitute another substance for the similar uses - we only don't do it because it's not economical. Moreover, if limestone is truly indispensable, then it's possible to make it.

I'm sorry, but you're very wrong there. Limestone is not cheap. It is actually one of the more expensive stones to quarry. The only stones more expensive to quarry are marble and granite because of the worth on the open market as decorative dimension stone (besides their other uses, such as extremely fine marble being that white power you see in foil gum wrappers).

Limestone is used because it of its versatility, but most importantly because it is so key to the cement and concrete making processes. I happen to live in the Cement Capital of the World (the Lehigh Valley of Pennsylvania). I can say for certain that not a single one of the 10 competing cement plants in the Valley use something other than limestone to cut cost... Because nothing does the job the way limestone does. The space-dwellers are going to need limestone from Earth one way or another. The Lehigh Valley is the Cement Capital of the World because it also happens to have large limestone deposits. I remember in high school you could feel the ground shake ever so slightly as charges were set off in the local quarries. Having lived amongst the quarries and cement plants my entire life, having been a mining engineering student, and having worked in these fields, I can say with the utmost confidence that this material is JUST THAT IMPORTANT to civilization as we know it. And that's just one material. I keep on limestone, but I've previously mentioned things like slate, dolomite, sandstone, marble, etc. that are just as important in other ways.

Making limestone.... Um.... Hmmm...... >_> Yeah..... Check back with me when they figure that one out.

Precisely. We've been using the old techniques because they've been the most economical. In space, they wouldn't be, so we'll either develop new ones, or we wouldn't live out there. Why did you put together such interesting points if you already knew the answer?

Because there is no better way to do it. Going back, limestone isn't cheap, but there just isn't any viable substitute.

Roman structures are still standing 2,000 years later. Why? Because they had a darn good idea and it worked. They, unthinkably, developed hydraulic cement in their time. That's astonishing. We still use that today in the form of Portland Cement, which is only minorly different that its Roman ancestor. Why? No one has thought of a better idea.

I agree, and I pointed out what would be needed to support them out there. I'd also imagine that much of the work would be done using robotics and other heavy machinery. Remember that this civilization is capable of massive 30km structures massing hundreds of millions of tons. Their materials technology and construction capability must be absolutely incredible.

I'm not denying the materials technology and construction capability must be absolutely incredible. You keep failing to realize I am not talking about building the colony shell, but outfitting the colonies with water, electricity, air purifiers and conditioners, buildings, roads, playsets, and shopping malls.

Show me a machine that think for itself and string 12-2 Romex cable for an entire house and I'll concede the point. But we need something even more advanced that a Star Wars droid for that job.

I spend my summers working construction (though not this summer as I have a job at the University now) and I've helped remodeled two homes as well constantly working with my dad to work on our current house. Electricians, plumbers, carpenters, HVAC technicians, locksmiths, and all those trades and more cannot be reasonably replaced by robots and machinery. It is an incredible job to do those things. Even if you could program a robot to string Romex, I'd love to see it be able to think for itself enough to critically think of solutions to the plethora of problems that arise in construction of structures. No two jobs are ever the same.

Some things can be pre-fabbed, I'll admit. Plumbing is one of the easier things to prefab, but it can't be done in nearly all situations. Jobs the size of a colony would require thousands upon thousands of human workers to complete.

It's hard to say exactly how many personnel would have been required to build the PLANTs because of the enormous amount of automation that had to have been used.

Ya still don't get it. You cannot automate the vast majority of tasks required to outfit the colonies. I doubt it will ever be possible. This isn't like someone before hot air ballons or airplanes saying, "Oh, we'll never be able to fly." This is a matter of saying that there are certain things you can't get a machine to do, unless you make it so much like a human that the lines are blurred. It'll be possible if we have bio-roids such as in Appleseed, yes. But when will we? I doubt anytime soon. None appear to be in the C.E.

To do HVAC or electrical alone a machine would need great problem solving skills. And how do you give a robot experience? You obviously become better and are more reputable as you gain more experience in the trades.

It's pretty much inconceivable given our current technology. Coordinators have always been stated as the vast majority of PLANT's occupants from the very get go, and it's not an utterly implausible explanation, so there's no need to assume that they kicked the Naturals out.

I have read that there are a very few Naturals there, but my point stands. There's no way Coordinators could have built the colonies without massive, massive amounts of Naturals helping.

I'm afraid that you're quite wrong. Every single plausible idea for space colonization precludes the use of massive amount of material from Earth. A much better source for construction material is the Moon. Read up on O'Neill - he's the guy who first thought up the concept of cylindrical colonies at the lagrange points.

And I'm afraid that you don't understand basic construction.

I have read up slightly on him for this and I can tell that these thoughts didn't cross his mind, or at the very least he never consulted anyone with experience in construction. It's all well and good for him to imagine colonies. We're still waiting for those flying cars and houses with Robot Maids we were promised back in the 1950s. But concept and practice are two greatly different things.

That's just the amount to get everybody off the ground and to sustain them for a period of time. I'm not counting what would be required to build the colonies themselves since they would mostly be built from material already in space. I also left out whatever material that would be required from Earth to build the colonies.

No, no they wouldn't... I cannot stress this enough that the materials in space are not nearly sufficient for the building of what we see in the various Gundam series. You can build a metal shell and thats about it. Once you start thinking about something so big it has things like roads and buildings in it, you've got a problem. You'd need such incredible amounts of material from earth that you need a highly advanced and cheap method of transportation of nothing would be monetarily feasible to build, let alone practically able to build.

I'm afraid not. They already assume that the ideas of O'Neill and his adherents are workable, and the story itself takes place long after the era of colonization. It's also a very high-tech (in a hard-SF manner) civilization where the nations have already terraformed Mars and Venus. On the other hand, it's still worth looking at since it's basically a much more realistic version of UC Gundam (one of their Exo-Armors even looks just like Neue Ziel).

Well he would have had to have thought about those points in order for it to be feasible.

In order for the colonies of the Gundam series to be feasible, there needs to be an efficient and relatively cheap method of Earth-to-space transportation and a massive human workforce well versed in the manual trades. Without that, nothing in the Gundam series are possible. At all.

I'm not surprised that this would be difficult to present. Germany effectively lost World War II in 1941, and largely due to their strategic incompetence. Oil's just the last nail in the coffin.

Actually, I got it approved by the Honors council.

It was one of my better works, if I do say so myself. ^_^

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Tak

Eh? Its more like Cagali's faction vs. others. Cagali made a horrid political choice and thus lost the upper-hand. She had a degree of autonomy in the beginning but she screwed that up. She could have allied with PLANT and that would have had half of the oligarchies writhing in pain.

What faction? Cagalli had absolutely no political support. Attempting to make an alliance with PLANT would have been both unworkable and stupid.

Originally Posted by Tak

Along with other non-coordinator human beings. As if the EA would go through the trouble separating the coordinators from the normal population. No, they were bombing entire cities, and having fun while doing it.

You seem to have watched a different version of the shows. OMNI didn't seem to be having fun bombing cities or anything like that; they were attacking Orb's defenders.

Originally Posted by Tak

Urm, no, I did not say they purposely targeted population centers.

You did: "There are no evidence suggesting that EA only concentrated on Orb military facilities, since they purposely targeted civilian centers as well."

Originally Posted by Tak

A strong economy based on massive imports. Once that source is cut off, there would be no chance for Orb's continued survival as a military power. Orb could only rely on stock materials and weapons when things go bad with no chance of replenishing their supplies quickly enough to fend off any major invasion.

This is only true if Orb had no strategic reserves.

Originally Posted by Tak

And "most of the world turned against Orb"? Lets see, besides a handful of neutral countries and Plant friendlies, most of the nations on Earth belonged to EA.

But this is only true during the period between EA's invasion and the end of the Cosmic Era 71 war. Nobody is trying to claim that they managed to produce much during this period. However, you claimed that they wouldn't be able to "maintain their level of productivity in Destiny" - a period when their relations had normalized with the EA. What's the logic connecting your two statements?

Originally Posted by Tak

Given the scale of battles fought in CE and the almost reckless use of WDMs, yes, I stand by my point.

Please point out the use of WMDs in the attacks on Orb. I must have missed them.

Originally Posted by Tak

Then comes the issue of occupation, re-organizing whatever assets EA could muster from the battered wasteland of Orb. Also dealing with sporadic resistance groups that may be present. I have very good reasons to believe that Orb was occupied up to a point.

I'm not sure if "battered wasteland" is at all an accurate assessment of Orb's condition after the EA invasion, but I suppose that they could have stripped some of the resources. However, is there any reason to suggest that they actually did this?

Originally Posted by Tak

You pretty much answered yourself with "Orb had nothing to fight with". You are right. So if you said this, I do not know why you would insist on Orb being a major center of influence after the second war, even if it was to be a politically one. Political influence without a military institution to enforce it (even during peacetime) is a pretty useless one.

The rather obvious explanation is that the two wars were different. Just because Orb's ground forces were annihilated at the end of the first war doesn't have much bearing on its condition at the end of the second. It's also obvious that Orb had a fairly powerful military in Cosmic Era 74, so I'm not sure what you're trying to argue.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

I'm sorry, but you're very wrong there. Limestone is not cheap. It is actually one of the more expensive stones to quarry. The only stones more expensive to quarry are marble and granite because of the worth on the open market as decorative dimension stone (besides their other uses, such as extremely fine marble being that white power you see in foil gum wrappers).

I stand corrected on the cheap point. However, my argument still largely holds. While concrete and all of those other substances are very useful, there's no reason why we are absolutely incapable of substituting other substances.

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

Making limestone.... Um.... Hmmm...... >_> Yeah..... Check back with me when they figure that one out.

Sure. Right after we figure out how to build 30km space colonies.

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

Because there is no better way to do it. Going back, limestone isn't cheap, but there just isn't any viable substitute.

Correction: there isn't any cheaper viable substitute. You're confusing inefficient with impossible.

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

Some things can be pre-fabbed, I'll admit. Plumbing is one of the easier things to prefab, but it can't be done in nearly all situations. Jobs the size of a colony would require thousands upon thousands of human workers to complete.

I believe that you mean that you can't think of a way to do it. Obviously, if we were to build colonies, we would have to develop technologies which would be considered fanatasical today.

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

I have read that there are a very few Naturals there, but my point stands. There's no way Coordinators could have built the colonies without massive, massive amounts of Naturals helping.

You're making a few too many assumptions here. The fact is that the PLANTs were largely built by Coordinators, and there's no evidence of them kicking out vast numbers of Naturals.

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

I have read up slightly on him for this and I can tell that these thoughts didn't cross his mind, or at the very least he never consulted anyone with experience in construction. It's all well and good for him to imagine colonies. We're still waiting for those flying cars and houses with Robot Maids we were promised back in the 1950s. But concept and practice are two greatly different things.

There are lots of ideas that were envisioned but aren't currently feasible. However, that doesn't mean that they're necessarily impossible either. To do that you'd have to show why such ideas are impossible rather than simply asserting that it is so.

By the way, Robot Maids are quite possible within the next couple hundred years, but flying cars aren't.

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

No, no they wouldn't... I cannot stress this enough that the materials in space are not nearly sufficient for the building of what we see in the various Gundam series. You can build a metal shell and thats about it. Once you start thinking about something so big it has things like roads and buildings in it, you've got a problem. You'd need such incredible amounts of material from earth that you need a highly advanced and cheap method of transportation of nothing would be monetarily feasible to build, let alone practically able to build.

Why wouldn't we be able to use metal for those as well?

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

Actually, I got it approved by the Honors council.

It was one of my better works, if I do say so myself. ^_^

Cool.