What Gundam shows count as war anime? [All shows]

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Blaat

About Haman's betrayal it was a well established fact that she wanted AEUG and Titans to destroy each other so that Neo Zeon would have a much easier time taking over the earth sphere. Siding with one faction too long would mean that Neo Zeon would be facing a much stronger opponent later on.

I don't know if Haman's true goals have ever been established. And since we have no real idea as to the relative strength of her forces, an attempt to take over the entire Earth Sphere may well be ruled out. At the end of Zeta, it seemed like she was reduced to only a handful of combat troops, but by the time of ZZ (A whole week later? Less?), there seemed to be endless numbers of Axis units to send into battle.

Besides, even if that was Haman's goal, Zeta depicts it extremely poorly. AEUG and the Titans were evenly enough matched that they would have destroyed each other without her intervention. Even if she just skipped out on her betrayal, she could have waited for AEUG to destroy the Titans, and either turn on them then, or she could help out the AEUG forces and end up smelling like roses. But no, Haman had to do the stupidest thing possible. The sad thing is that I wouldn't mind nearly as much if the show at least depicted why she made such a bone-headed decision, but all we get is that silly narration.

Originally Posted by Blaat

About the Titans forces at the end of the show. Scirrocco did establish after the Titan spacefleet was destroyed by the giant beam cannon (well that's realistic ;p ) that this isn't enough to defeat AEUG. From that sentence (admittingly its vague) one would then assume that the Titans forces are considerably weaker in numbers then the AEUG forces.

I'm still not sure if Scirocco was referring just to the forces at the Colony Laser, or if he was admitting that all of the Titans wouldn't be able to take on the rest of the AEUG forces. Heck, I'm not even sure if any Titan assets decided to join up with him after Jamitov died.

Originally Posted by Blaat

About the original thread topic, what Gundam show is considered a war anime. I can't answer that until I know why the CE Gundams are excluded in the comparison. To avoid a UC vs CE discussion? If that's so then the creator of the thread has failed with that.

My intent was just to create a thread where the discussion where I wouldn't have to discuss Seed. If anybody else wanted to, I have no problems with that.


As an aside, I don't know about Quattro's crimes during the One Year War, but I always thought that the Titans should have just branded him as a terrorist. It would have ruined any of AEUG's attempts to come off as the righteous party.

[Blaat]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Besides, even if that was Haman's goal, Zeta depicts it extremely poorly.

What I said was directly stated in the show it self by characters. So I'm not sure how can you can depicts it more then that. Now if her plan was executed poorly well that's a matter of opinion and I'm not going to bother with that.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

As an aside, I don't know about Quattro's crimes during the One Year War, but I always thought that the Titans should have just branded him as a terrorist. It would have ruined any of AEUG's attempts to come off as the righteous party.

I agree having the Titans calling Quattro a terrorist would have helped them a lot. But then again the show was created in the mid 80s and to be honest as possible terrorism, although existing since the mid 20th century, only appeared in our consciousness since September 11. Heck in retrospect Tomino should have used more computers and mobile communication devices.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

At the end of Zeta, it seemed like she was reduced to only a handful of combat troops, but by the time of ZZ (A whole week later? Less?), there seemed to be endless numbers of Axis units to send into battle.

ZZ proved that wrong didn't it? Anyway bad guys in Gundam always have endless numbers, no matter show it is. Although ZZ fights usually happened between extremely small units (Haman's fleet that went into the Earth it self only consisted of 3 ships which isn't really big)

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I'm still not sure if Scirocco was referring just to the forces at the Colony Laser, or if he was admitting that all of the Titans wouldn't be able to take on the rest of the AEUG forces.

Hmm well if its only the forces at the colony laser he would have retreated in order to regroup the Titans. If it was the bulk of the Titan forces he would have been pissed, mind blasted Kamille and died ;p

Anyway I'm not sure what this discussion has any thing to do with the the topic at hand.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Blaat

What I said was directly stated in the show it self by characters. So I'm not sure how can you can depicts it more then that.

Can you refresh my memory as to when and who explicitly said that Haman's goal was to take over the entire Earth Sphere?

Originally Posted by Blaat

I agree having the Titans calling Quattro a terrorist would have helped them a lot. But then again the show was created in the mid 80s and to be honest as possible terrorism, although existing since the mid 20th century, only appeared in our consciousness since September 11. Heck in retrospect Tomino should have used more computers and mobile communication devices.

You are quite incorrect. There were probably more terrorist incidents in the 1970s and 1980s than there are now. The main difference is that the methodology of terrorists have changed a little, but what Quattro did is actually more in line with this older methodology. In any case, there were lots of examples of terrorist activity brought to the public spotlight such as the Iranian embassy in 1980 or Munich 1972 or the marine barracks in Lebanon 1982. It's a myth that the public was relatively unaware of terrorism twenty years ago.

Originally Posted by Blaat

ZZ proved that wrong didn't it? Anyway bad guys in Gundam always have endless numbers, no matter show it is.

And that's one of the reasons why it's hard to take Gundam's approach to war very seriously.

Originally Posted by Blaat

Anyway I'm not sure what this discussion has any thing to do with the the topic at hand.

Most of these points relate directly to the scope of the action, so I'd say that they're quite relevant.

[Blaat]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Can you refresh my memory as to when and who explicitly said that Haman's goal was to take over the entire Earth Sphere?

The quote where Haman wanted AEUG and Titans to destroy each other was stated either at their first meeting (which would be episode 33-35) if not then its after the Rosamia arc so episode 43-45 (which also that meeting).
The person who said was I think an Argama member. If you want more details then that my apologies, but it doesn't hurt for you to refresh your memory about Zeta Gundam.

Oh and its not in the movies, so don't bother checking that one.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

It's a myth that the public was relatively unaware of terrorism twenty years ago.

I stand corrected.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

And that's one of the reasons why it's hard to take Gundam's approach to war very seriously.

Therefore Gundam is not a war anime.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Most of these points relate directly to the scope of the action, so I'd say that they're quite relevant.

It certainly started that way but now, at least from my perspective, it feels like the discussion lost track.

[Crusader]

Originally Posted by Blaat

About Haman's betrayal it was a well established fact that she wanted AEUG and Titans to destroy each other so that Neo Zeon would have a much easier time taking over the earth sphere. Siding with one faction too long would mean that Neo Zeon would be facing a much stronger opponent later on.

About the Titans forces at the end of the show. Scirrocco did establish after the Titan spacefleet was destroyed by the giant beam cannon (well that's realistic ;p ) that this isn't enough to defeat AEUG. From that sentence (admittingly its vague) one would then assume that the Titans forces are considerably weaker in numbers then the AEUG forces. Sadly enough Zeta Gundam lacks a large amount of small details (whatever happened to the 2nd Mk II unit?) which ruins the show for some.

Curious to know; what war crimes are you thinking about?

Haman had nothing to gain from bartering with the Titans, but everything to gain from the Aeug. so again it makes no sense.

Scirocco didn't estabilsh jack, after the space fleet was vaped, infact he joined them in death not too long afterwards.


As for Char's war crimes i can really only think of one well maybe two. It was his forces that took out side 7, a colony. Then i do recall him gunning down some civilians that were leaving White base. civillians that were unarmed.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Blaat

The quote where Haman wanted AEUG and Titans to destroy each other was stated either at their first meeting (which would be episode 33-35) if not then its after the Rosamia arc so episode 43-45 (which also that meeting).

Wanting AEUG and the Titans to destroy one another is a farcry from wanting to take over the whole Earth Sphere. By the way, I doubt that it happened at the first meeting since Haman was quite willing to team up AEUG until Quattro went on his rant.

Originally Posted by Blaat

The person who said was I think an Argama member. If you want more details then that my apologies, but it doesn't hurt for you to refresh your memory about Zeta Gundam.

Since the Argama's crew is hardly privy to Haman's goals, I wouldn't rate this as a very reliable source.

Originally Posted by Blaat

I stand corrected.

No problem. It's a shame that the more things change, the more they stay the same. The only good news is that there aren't any airplane hijackings anymore.

[picjusbro]

Originally Posted by Blaat
ZZ proved that wrong didn't it? Anyway bad guys in Gundam always have endless numbers, no matter show it is.

In Mobile Suit Gundam I think they made it clear that Zeon's numbers were running low. In example when Char requested for three more mobile suits and only got two according to Admiral Dozle Zeon doesn't have the same resources or numbers anymore. Also during the final battle of A Baoa Qu wasn't most the Zeon defenders just traniees. I only think the reason for it to seem that the enemy was unlimited numbers ( at least in UC) is that the good guys fight such small fraction of the enemy at one time. That they never cause any real damage to the enemy's overall force.

[Edgewood]

So, to begin, I'm going to have to examine the very origin of the metaseries itself.

Mobile Suit Gundam began as a fairly decent ploy (in the scathing sea of licensing and merchandise rights that was 1970's robot anime) to sell model kits to young people. When deciding on an individual who would be capable enough to create a narrative that would become popular among young males (ages 12-24), Bandai pitched the idea to Yoshiyuki Tomino.

Little did they know that this would be both a curse and blessing.

Tomino, who had penned a great deal of fine literary works, including the original background work for Aura Battle Dunbine, scoffed at the idea of directing a series with such a blatantly obvious marketing premise. However, after being given a fair amount of authority over the project, he began to work with the first generation of the Sunrise writing team know collectively as "Hajime Yatate", and created the masterpiece that we know and love today.

One of the problems with the Mobile Suit Gundam franchise's mainstream television productions is that they do not offer a view of warfare that is consistent with what war actually is in the social sense. Very rarely are we offered consistent opportunities to hear and watch the "enemy" side of a conflict. The OVAs and productions like MS IGLOO, while not being mainstream, do offer us very short albeit entirely wholesome look at what just how equally human either side is in a war. What was amazing about MS IGLOO's approach to the flip-side was the way the final episode of each miniseries was narrated. EFSF propaganda denouncing the Zudah should conjure memories of American and German public propaganda films that were aired in theaters during daytime slots in the 1940's. Finally, the narrative twist that occurred when the 603rd was attacked by Federation Mobile Suits in Sector E after the cease-fire, effectively placing the same face on them that the original MSG series in 1979 so happily pasted onto the Principality.

Then again, MS IGLOO, one of the finest works in Gundam history, doesn't count in this argument. Crying shame.

So, you know, I'm tempted to agree that not a single Gundam television production has done an outstanding job of depicting war in a way that isn't polarizing. The dozens of canonical and soft-canon sidestory mangas and the OVAs do a better job, so it's not to say that Gundam has never done a war narrative properly in its entire history. It's really very dependant on the target audience and the merchandising.

The good stuff aside, you have to remember that Gundam's direction in the 21st century has been that of rampant commercialism. Model kits and toys, folks. Don't try to lie to yourselves. You know it in your heart to be true.

While the same can be said for every Gundam series in the metaseries itself, no decade has been prosperous or full of so many model and merchandise releases than this one, and this can especially be attributed to the Cosmic Era Timeline.

If anything, Gundam SEED and Gundam SEED Destiny adhere to the stereotypical "good guy beats bad guy" formula that passed for DECENCY in the 1970's, but this story direction gets us nowhere with such paper-thin characters and idiotic storyline pacing.

So, for now, let's just assume we're in the Dark Ages of Gundam, right before the Renaissance or some kind of enlightening. The 30th anniversary is just two years off.

[PowerBarEX]

yeah, but it seems like camillie is the only character that really mourns anyone or gives a crap, perhaps emma mourned a couple of times.

You forget that time when Fa cries deeply at the end of that episode when Jerid, Camille and Katz were in the same room because she's the one that accidentally led the Titans to fight inside the colony. I found that scene important because although she's become part of the AEUG and she's been in battle several times, she hasn't forgotten about the innocent civilians she's supposed to protect.

but Zeta lacked a lot of the caring factor. It almost came across as if the cast didn't care about anyone who died. This lack of caring made some of the characters carbon.

I don't know how you can see that. Most of the dialogue in the series is one character showing concern for another. Fa for Camille, and the kids. Bright serving as a father figure while at the same time is holding in the pain of being in the absence of his own kids. Char and Emma both look over Camille. And in terms of death, each showed their mourning period and how fast they can put it in the back of their minds, and not everyone's period were the same. Just look at Reccoa Londe's 'death' arc. I do find it interesting that you feel that the characters in the series seem carbon while 4tran says they're one of the more positive aspects of the series.

I don't even understand how Scirocco gained any influence especially with Bask breathing down his back. Not to mention most of the Titans and Feddies hated him. Bask disappears, and reappers with Scirocco somehow on a postions almost equal to him.

First, Bask and Scirocco don't even see each other until the end of the series. Bask left to meet up with Jamitov and left Jamaican to deal with Scirocco. Second, I saw Scirocco's role in the Titans as similar to Cima's in 0083. He was more of a 'hired mercenary' than someone that rose up the ranks in their hierarchy. Of course with Jamitov and Jamaican gone, and Bask having no recent association with Scirocco, the control of the Titans falls into whoever's left standing, at that's Scirocco after he kills off Bask.

On the subject of Haman's Betrayal, there is no real reason for it to make sense. She was promised side 3 for her help (which she got eventually). If she stayed with Aeug till the titans were crushed she could have still been in a powerful position. Her bargaining with the Titans made no sense either, and seemed only there so they could find an effective way to kill jamitov and glorify scirocco. (who wasn't that compelling) The Titans had nothing to offer her, and the Aeug's offer was much more valuable in terms of zeon symbolism. Especially how she was spouting about restoring the Zabi family crap. so there's some more REAL politics.

I don't know why I feel like I see this very clearly and others don't. Well, it is clear that Haman is playing each side. While she could side with either side and probably still win, her chances are easier if she sides with the Titans first because they have the colony laser and the Gates of Zedan base. While being under the pretense of an alliance with the Titans, she makes a deal with the AEUG which offers a distraction so that she can destroy (although she only disables) the colony laser. Now without the colony laser, Haman openly reneges on her deal to the Titans, destroying the Gates of Zedan using AEUG's support to eliminate as much of the Titan force as possible.
Now without the colony laser and the Gate, the Titan's military strength (including their backing from the EF) is greatly diminished CLEARLY giving Haman the upper hand in negotiations. And while in negotiations, Char goes off alone to kill Haman followed by the AEUG's mission to retake the colony laser (still a threat) from now Zeon control. This is why the AEUG and Zeon ties were broken. So even though 4Tran was leading everyone to think Haman betrayed the AEUG (though she would've done so sooner or later anyway), it was actually AEUG who decided to take the initiative and defend themselves from Haman. Though long-winded, i'm pretty sure things are more clear to everyone now.

About side 3, she was promised side 3 in ZZ, not Zeta. She obviosly wouldn't have been in such a good bargaining position for side 3 if not for the events in Zeta.

The fact that he was an important politician is one thing. I mean when jfk was killed, America ceased a lot of activity to bring to light that our nations leader was dead. It's absurd to believe that it would be glossed over as just another death.

As i mentioned before i can't think of any important political figure that died, and was glossed over as it was in Zeta. Not to mention Blex was in a very important postion at the time of his demise. The only true rep for the Aeug...Hmm seems improtant to me.
I still find it hard to belive that it was kept such a secret when the Titans knew about it. (asided from the fact they were responsible.)

Except JFK wasn't the underground political head of a rebel militant group. Blex wasn't that big of a politician as JFK. He's just one guy that secretly sided and backed their beliefs. Blex WAS a very important figure...to the AEUG. He's their only tie to a legitimate figure. Kind of like Martin Sheen in the Departed (or rather his counterpart in Infernal Affairs) once he dies, AEUG loses all chance of possible legitimacy in the realm of the EF and has to resort to crashing in on their congregation in Dakar.

Would would the Titan's gain by spreading the word that they assassinated him? Or even that he died? I would think that one of the major consequences would be that he would be looked at as a martyr and provoke even greater anti-EF sentiment, or even stir uneasiness within the EF themselves, that a member would be assassinated that way. Also, this falls in line with the way the Titans do all their work, as evidenced by how they prefer to gas colonies and keep it hush hush.

[PowerBarEX]

Nope. I'm saying that it's a waste of time to talk about "super robot" and "real robot" classes to begin with.

Why is it a waste of time? If you want to side-step the existence of both genres, then we might as well stop the debate right here.

Nonsense. If she had the upper hand, then it makes even less sense for her to talk to the Titans. She already had AEUG eating out of her hand. Perhaps if Haman's decision making were actually in the show it would make sense, but it wasn't.

See above post. It certainly makes alot of sense to me.

It may be, but it's really just a comparison between a mecha and a real vehicle. Again, your comparison doesn't do any convincing unless the idea that "real robots" are realistic is already accepted.

Again, you're taking my words out of context, sidestepping and ignoring the existence of the genre entirely.

The idea of humans "evolving" differently in space is laughable to begin with. That's not the way evolution works at all. Moreover, ESP isn't even close to being realistic.

I never described how they 'evolved' into having this ESP. You're just assuming I did. Of course, that doesn't rule out the possibility that humans can develop ESP through means of natural selection and the like. In the beginning of Gundam, the people in the realm of Gundam didn't believe ESP was realistic either.

The last I heard, the US military didn't have a policy of using the brig as a place where soldiers could get more rest.

I don't recall them doing this in Gundam either. In fact, I was referring to the US military and their incompetence as a super-power, unable to deal with a relative small fry like Vietnam.

Machines in the vast majority of mecha shows require maintenance - how is UC special in this regard?

How many do it to the amount of consistent detail that Gundam does?

But in writing "THere is NO superhero, especially in Zeta because unlike Kira or even Amuro, Camille gets tricked and gets his assed saved by others numerous times.", you're insinuating that some UC Gundam shows have superheros. Since superheroes are unrealistic, wouldn't this apply to the show as well?

No, I'm insinuating that UC Gundam has no superheroes, and the GREATEST example out of all 3 series is Camille in Zeta Gundam. A lesser example would be Amuro. I'm insinuating that Zeta is more of a war-anime than the MSG that you seem to be half touting.

I can assure you that they all meet the first two criteria handily, and none of them (with the exception of Lime-iro Senkitan) are much more unrealistic than some of the stuff we see in UC Gundam. Would that mean that they would all be considered war anime based on your definition?

Possibly so, but I'd have to watch them before I can decide if that's actually the case. As for FMP, from what I remember, certainly the slap-stick comedy throws off the notion of a war-anime. And if you wanna talk in terms of scope, they provided even less 'scope' than Gundam. Those are a couple of reasons. And the mech details? How were they more realistic? You were lead into accepting the technologies of the arbalest and such instead of having some kind of plausible explanation to them. Look at all the detail they put into the concept of the minovsky drive. They've got a whole background and even equations.

realism - 1#An inclination toward literal truth and pragmatism.
2# The representation in art or literature of objects, actions, or social conditions as they actually are, without idealization or presentation in abstract form.

Taken from dictionary.com, I'd say both definitions are to my liking.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

I don't know why I feel like I see this very clearly and others don't.

The reason is that you're making assumptions that may or may not be founded.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Now without the colony laser and the Gate, the Titan's military strength (including their backing from the EF) is greatly diminished CLEARLY giving Haman the upper hand in negotiations. And while in negotiations, Char goes off alone to kill Haman followed by the AEUG's mission to retake the colony laser (still a threat) from now Zeon control. This is why the AEUG and Zeon ties were broken. So even though 4Tran was leading everyone to think Haman betrayed the AEUG (though she would've done so sooner or later anyway), it was actually AEUG who decided to take the initiative and defend themselves from Haman.

Haman's betrayal was to negotiate separately with the Titans in the first place.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Why is it a waste of time? If you want to side-step the existence of both genres, then we might as well stop the debate right here.

There aren't two genres. The distinction between Real Robots and Super Robots was made by the Super Robot Wars games. While it might be a great idea for game balance, it isn't very useful for much else. In particular, there are sufficient differences Zeta Gundam and say, Patlabors that to classify them all the same is misleading at best. What you're trying to do is to use the definition in place of an argument; if you want to prove that Zeta is realistic, then you'll have to provide the evidence for it. Simply saying that it's more realistic than the Seed mobile suits won't get you very far.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Again, you're taking my words out of context, sidestepping and ignoring the existence of the genre entirely.

Incorrect. You've done nothing to show that "real robots" are realistic to begin with.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

I never described how they 'evolved' into having this ESP. You're just assuming I did. Of course, that doesn't rule out the possibility that humans can develop ESP through means of natural selection and the like. In the beginning of Gundam, the people in the realm of Gundam didn't believe ESP was realistic either.

To begin with, there's nothing realistic about ESP, so why would it be possible for people to "evolve" such abilities? Next, even if you didn't describe how your interpretation of evolution works, it's still impossible for humans to do so simply by moving into space. And especially not in the context of one or fewer (Amuro, for example was born on Earth) generations.

Out of curiosity, how do you think this evolution of newtype abilities works?

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

I don't recall them doing this in Gundam either. In fact, I was referring to the US military and their incompetence as a super-power, unable to deal with a relative small fry like Vietnam.

In that case, you misinterpreted my argument. I was referring to the way, once anyone was a prisoner onboard Argama, they would be certain to escape (or be let out) within an episode. In a way, it's an expression of the lack of consequence for one's actions.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

How many do it to the amount of consistent detail that Gundam does?

How is the amount of detail relevant?

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

No, I'm insinuating that UC Gundam has no superheroes, and the GREATEST example out of all 3 series is Camille in Zeta Gundam. A lesser example would be Amuro. I'm insinuating that Zeta is more of a war-anime than the MSG that you seem to be half touting.

Have you misread my argument from the very beginning? The reason that I say that Mobile Suit Gundam qualifies as a war anime isn't because of how realistic it is. It's because it expresses the scope of the action and it establishes the consequences of success and failure fairly well.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

As for FMP, from what I remember, certainly the slap-stick comedy throws off the notion of a war-anime.

How does the existence of slap-stick comedy detract from the rest of the story?

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

And if you wanna talk in terms of scope, they provided even less 'scope' than Gundam.

What are you talking about?

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

And the mech details? How were they more realistic? You were lead into accepting the technologies of the arbalest and such instead of having some kind of plausible explanation to them. Look at all the detail they put into the concept of the minovsky drive.

I didn't say that all of the technologies in Full Metal Panic are more realistic than Zeta, I said that most of them are. Note that having lots of explanation for a piece of nonsensical technology doesn't make them more realistic or more plausible in the slightest. I'd actually prefer if they didn't try to explain them at all.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

They've got a whole background and even equations.

I reserve my right to laugh at this .


"realism - 1#An inclination toward literal truth and pragmatism." - This isn't a very good defintion since literal truth and pragmatism are totally different things. Nothing in fiction is the literal truth, and I'm not sure what role pragmatism is supposed to play.

"2# The representation in art or literature of objects, actions, or social conditions as they actually are, without idealization or presentation in abstract form." - This definition works much better, but how does Zeta qualify?

Originally Posted by Edgewood

Then again, MS IGLOO, one of the finest works in Gundam history, doesn't count in this argument. Crying shame.

My original intent was just to take the TV shows and the other works separately. That doesn't seem to be much of an issue now, so feel free to comment on MS Igloo. To be honest, I'm rather curious: what are the merits of these OVAs?

[PowerBarEX]

The reason is that you're making assumptions that may or may not be founded.

That's funny, because if you rewatch the series, its quite evident.

Haman's betrayal was to negotiate separately with the Titans in the first place.

Now who's making assumptions?

There aren't two genres.

No, actually they are. Gundam helped to create that genre and you neglecting this fact is only selfishly serving your argument.

Incorrect. You've done nothing to show that "real robots" are realistic to begin with.

Anyone that has seen any type of mecha anime would know what i'm talking about. Again, feigning ignorance and avoiding the issue is not going to work.

Have you misread my argument from the very beginning? The reason that I say that Mobile Suit Gundam qualifies as a war anime isn't because of how realistic it is.

No, you've misread my argument. It is through my definition and my opinions that Zeta is more of a war-anime than MSG. Heck even under your definitions I'd say the same thing, but the way this has been going, I'm not even going to trouble as to why because I already know what the vague answer you're going to give me.

To begin with, there's nothing realistic about ESP, so why would it be possible for people to "evolve" such abilities? Next, even if you didn't describe how your interpretation of evolution works, it's still impossible for humans to do so simply by moving into space. And especially not in the context of one or fewer (Amuro, for example was born on Earth) generations.

Like I said in the beginning of Gundam, nobody thought ESP was realistic either. Next, genetics is just half of evolution, expression is the other. So even if Amuro was born on Earth, his genetic expression can still change when he moves to outer space.

How is the amount of detail relevant?

Why are you asking me to go into detail and explain everything? Its the same reason.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

That's funny, because if you rewatch the series, its quite evident.

You know, just claiming that your arguments make sense don't actually make them so.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Now who's making assumptions?

How's it an assumption to say that Haman's action of bargaining with the Titans is an act of betrayal?

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

No, actually they are. Gundam helped to create that genre and you neglecting this fact is only selfishly serving your argument.

Anyone that has seen any type of mecha anime would know what i'm talking about. Again, feigning ignorance and avoiding the issue is not going to work.

Have you quit trying to from any arguments for your position?

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

No, you've misread my argument. It is through my definition and my opinions that Zeta is more of a war-anime than MSG.

Fine. Let's go by your definition then. How is Zeta more realistic than Mobile Suit Gundam?

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Like I said in the beginning of Gundam, nobody thought ESP was realistic either. Next, genetics is just half of evolution, expression is the other. So even if Amuro was born on Earth, his genetic expression can still change when he moves to outer space.

Is this really what you think evolution is? You know, I'm still not sure why the heck you're trying to argue that newtype abilities, and the way they come into being, are even slightly realistic.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Why are you asking me to go into detail and explain everything? Its the same reason.

I'm specifically asking how showing maintenance in more "consistent detail" is supposed to make a show more realistic. So far, you've come up with a bunch of examples, but you haven't been very forthcoming when it comes to showing how they are supposed to support your conclusions.

[PowerBarEX]

You know, just claiming that your arguments make sense don't actually make them so.

I never just 'claimed' that my arguments make sense. I thoroughly explained the plot and then said if you don't believe me, then you'll have to watch the series over yourself. You're statement that Haman was betraying the AEUG by meeting with the Titans is more of an assumption than my entire explanation of what happened, because if you've watched or remembered that scene, Haman said she has no reason to cooperate with the Titans and that the Titans should be the one submitting to Zeon. It's still not considered betrayal if both AEUG and the Titans submit to Zeon. Therefore, it's AEUG that 'betrayed' first.

Fine. Let's go by your definition then. How is Zeta more realistic than Mobile Suit Gundam?

Two major points that stick out. The scenario in MSG where the military sends absolutely no reinforcements to a top experimental Carrier AND Mobile Suit while they are both in Enemy territory is IMO unbelievable/unrealistic. You'd think that they wouldn't want both to fall into enemy hands. Second is that while Amuro realistically saves the day every time. Camille's role in Zeta is more realistic because he makes plenty of near fatal mistakes and requires his weaker comrades to bail him out. I can only remember one time that Amuro gets his butt saved and that's when Ryu kamikaze's himself. Even then, Ryu was protecting White Base, not Amuro.

s this really what you think evolution is? You know, I'm still not sure why the heck you're trying to argue that newtype abilities, and the way they come into being, are even slightly realistic.

No actually, I don't feel like going through the whole natural selection/genetic drift mendel's laws BS. I have a degree in biochem, so its not like I don't know what evolution is. I'm saying that the way they explain it in detail along with our existing knowledge of science, that it is plausible even if its by the slightest possibility. Similar to Ghosts and Cyberbrains in GiTS.

I'm specifically asking how showing maintenance in more "consistent detail" is supposed to make a show more realistic. So far, you've come up with a bunch of examples, but you haven't been very forthcoming when it comes to showing how they are supposed to support your conclusions.

Well I thought you would understand more than anyone else why details have to be consistent. When an author or writer creates a world, he also creates the laws that the world abides to. Some of these details or laws are inherent like gravity. When the story or plot goes against these details without proper explanation, it takes away from the realism and legitimacy of the plot. One example is a grunt suit can be obliterated with the slightest of ease by a single shot in Wing or Seed. However, put the hero like Heero or Kira in the grunt suit, and all of a sudden it takes an infinite amount of hits to destroy the same grunt mobile suit. You don't see that in the UC Series.

(Now that's not to say I didn't like or am flaming those two series...I actually like Wing alot.)

Have you quit trying to from any arguments for your position?

No, I formed my arguments and you refuse to accept them. It's like me saying 'scope is not relevant to YOUR definition' even though you've stated that scope is a determining factor in your definition.

C'mon, lets not be petty here. Like Wingdarkness has said, I and just about everyone else on this forum has already conceded that Zeta and the entire franchise is not a war-anime in your strict definitions. It seems however that you can't accept that the franchise CAN be classified as a war-anime in a less strict, more general sense such as mine. And while it was initially interesting and amusing to see yours and everyone elses opinion on the matter, your double standard of making everything you say relevant while what everyone else says that doesn't agree with you, irrelevant, is getting tiresome. And that's after we give thorough examples from the material itself. I do thank you for the anime suggestions though. Who knows, maybe after finishing some of them, I'll agree with you on your stance in this issue.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

I never just 'claimed' that my arguments make sense. I thoroughly explained the plot and then said if you don't believe me, then you'll have to watch the series over yourself.

That's the same thing as not trying to support your arguments.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

You're statement that Haman was betraying the AEUG by meeting with the Titans is more of an assumption than my entire explanation of what happened, because if you've watched or remembered that scene, Haman said she has no reason to cooperate with the Titans and that the Titans should be the one submitting to Zeon. It's still not considered betrayal if both AEUG and the Titans submit to Zeon. Therefore, it's AEUG that 'betrayed' first.

That isn't quite correct. Treating with an enemy entirely for one's own advantage without regard to one's allies is a betrayal. Then again, your version of events is pretty bad as well .

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Two major points that stick out. The scenario in MSG where the military sends absolutely no reinforcements to a top experimental Carrier AND Mobile Suit while they are both in Enemy territory is IMO unbelievable/unrealistic. You'd think that they wouldn't want both to fall into enemy hands.

Generally, this is dependent on the cost versus the benefit of setting aside a unit (one that can keep up with White Base) to protect them. The show itself depicts the difficulty of supplying White Base, and if they were in enemy territory, the difficulty of reinforcing them would have been that much harder. It's very much a military decision, and there's no one right way to proceed. I don't think that Mobile Suit Gundam is all that realistic to begin with, so I don't really want to defend it on this basis, but this point doesn't say much either way.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Second is that while Amuro realistically saves the day every time. Camille's role in Zeta is more realistic because he makes plenty of near fatal mistakes and requires his weaker comrades to bail him out. I can only remember one time that Amuro gets his butt saved and that's when Ryu kamikaze's himself. Even then, Ryu was protecting White Base, not Amuro.

I'm not sure how you connect this to realism. Heck, it'd be more realistic to simply die as soon as you make a mistake.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

No actually, I don't feel like going through the whole natural selection/genetic drift mendel's laws BS. I have a degree in biochem, so its not like I don't know what evolution is. I'm saying that the way they explain it in detail along with our existing knowledge of science, that it is plausible even if its by the slightest possibility.

Then you should know that science doesn't work that way. There are lots of things that have the slightest possibility of being true, but we would still regard them as completely implausible. In this case, it's impossible for newtype abilities to be a product of evolution (at least not as an effect of moving into space). Then again, there isn't anything plausible about newtype abilities to begin with. I don't have a problem if we simply gloss this over, but it's sort of silly to see anyone claim that they have the slightest relationship to reality.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Well I thought you would understand more than anyone else why details have to be consistent. When an author or writer creates a world, he also creates the laws that the world abides to. Some of these details or laws are inherent like gravity. When the story or plot goes against these details without proper explanation, it takes away from the realism and legitimacy of the plot.

I'm specifically asking how showing maintenance in more "consistent detail" is supposed to make a show more realistic. How does showing maintenance all the time make it more realistic than showing it occasionally?

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

No, I formed my arguments and you refuse to accept them. It's like me saying 'scope is not relevant to YOUR definition' even though you've stated that scope is a determining factor in your definition.

Incorrect. I specifically refuted your arguments. You can then choose to either defend them or not.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

It seems however that you can't accept that the franchise CAN be classified as a war-anime in a less strict, more general sense such as mine. And while it was initially interesting and amusing to see yours and everyone elses opinion on the matter, your double standard of making everything you say relevant while what everyone else says that doesn't agree with you, irrelevant, is getting tiresome.

That isn't quite true. I'm even open to exploring the idea of war anime according to your definition - hence the probe about how Zeta is realistic compared to Mobile Suit Gundam. As for relevant/irrelevant, while I definitely like using those phrases, but I actually haven't done so very much in this thread. Besides, there's nothing wrong with pointing out that a particular point is relevant or irrelevant - as long as it can be shown to be so. I'm not sure why you would try to characterize it as my response whenever I disagree with someone's statement given that this is far from the case.

[Tak]

Getting back to the original topic somewhat. In my opinion, no Gundam series is a true war anime. I will note several exceptions however, and that come in the form of War in the Pocket, MS08 and maybe stardust memories.

Nonetheless, since the OVAs are obviously ruled out, then I have to say that no Gundam anime I've watched could be considered as a war anime. Although considered to be a real-robot genre, Gundam has traces of super-robot dating from the ol' days. That silly hovering maid MS from the first Gundam pretty much killed it.

As of right now, the only serious war anime I've seen with mecha involved is none other than Macross and its offspring, with the exception of seven. I need not mention the reasons, because its quite obvious.

- Tak