Tate no Yuusha/Shield Hero - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Frontier

It's kind of funny that the Heroes of the other Earth seem to work better then the Melromarc Heroes .

Although, I wonder...does that other world have an equivalent number of Heroes? So there would probably be one more after Glass, L'Arc, and Therese. Or does Therese count as a Hero? I thought she was more L'Arc's Raphtalia equivalent then a full-fledged Hero, but maybe she is one of them.

I don't think she's a hero since she's using accessories to fight. There doesn't seem to be a difference between the one Naofumi made and the other ones she uses.

Another argument: her words weren't auto translated until L'arc used his weapon on her.

[The Green One]

She seems to be on par with an effective Hero though.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by The Green One

She seems to be on par with an effective Hero though.

Same goes for Raphtalia.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I don't think she's a hero since she's using accessories to fight. There doesn't seem to be a difference between the one Naofumi made and the other ones she uses.

Another argument: her words weren't auto translated until L'arc used his weapon on her.

Ah, yeah, so she's probably just part of L'Arc's party.

So there's potentially two other Heroes from their world who we haven't seen yet. Which I guess begs the question of why they've only started appearing now. Like, Glass didn't show up in the first Wave and L'Arc didn't show up in the second, so is there a pre-requisite for how many of them can leave their Earth during a Wave? Will the third Hero of their Earth show up for the fourth Wave?

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by The Green One

The fact still remains that they themselves are hiding from a plain and simple fact. Their actions are going to make them mass murders. They may have good intentions and reasons for it but they are lying to themselves and others by not embracing the fact that they are telling this world and everyone in it to die so that their's can live. They can be sorry about it all they want but spending time and energy to "protect" their victims from their own attacks is just escapism to protect their own feelings. You have to admit that their behavior is contradictory.

They even failed to make more than a token effort at the other heroes, clearly much easier prey and would be enough to utterly doom this world according to Fitoria.

You missed my first part about it being an automatic thing. And while I agree that their actions are contradictory, it takes more than that to make a person a "hypocrite". To be a hypocrite they'd have to demonstrate some sort of contradiction between their stated values and their actions or something like that. Or maybe condemn others for actions that they're taking. What they're doing isn't hypocrisy, it's internal conflict: they hate the idea of killing innocent people for the sake of their own world, and when they see people in trouble they help them without thinking about it, but they have to do what they're doing. Again, would they be hypocrites if they fought the waves and struggled to protect the people of their world while refusing to go and kill the Heroes of the other world? They'd still be saving people that they'd condemned by their own choices. That's the thing about the trolley conundrum: there is no good answer and no answer makes you a "hypocrite".

[Lukes YGO & WS on YT]

Well gosh what an episode that was.

Was really enjoying them fighting together to take down the enemies in the wave and then all that happened.

At least we know why though, good thing Naofumi and the others have powered up, now they might be able to beat Glass or at least repel her until another time.

[The Green One]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

You missed my first part about it being an automatic thing. And while I agree that their actions are contradictory, it takes more than that to make a person a "hypocrite". To be a hypocrite they'd have to demonstrate some sort of contradiction between their stated values and their actions or something like that. Or maybe condemn others for actions that they're taking. What they're doing isn't hypocrisy, it's internal conflict: they hate the idea of killing innocent people for the sake of their own world, and when they see people in trouble they help them without thinking about it, but they have to do what they're doing. Again, would they be hypocrites if they fought the waves and struggled to protect the people of their world while refusing to go and kill the Heroes of the other world? They'd still be saving people that they'd condemned by their own choices. That's the thing about the trolley conundrum: there is no good answer and no answer makes you a "hypocrite".

You've missed my point as well apparently. My argument is over the futility of going out of their way to save people from collateral damage when they're going to kill them anyway as an end result of their own exact actions. It's a pointless waste of their time. You can try to rationalize it as internal conflict but contradictions are contradictions. They're trying to make themselves feel better even though they're still killing people, even if they aren't swinging the weapon that cuts them down or cast the spell either.

A way to define hypocrisy: the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.

What is their excuse of sacrificing a world and it's inhabitants to save their world. IS it the only way? Can they even know it's the only way? They "show" they have morals but they are still two people who consider genocide on a global scale to protect their world is an unfortunate but acceptable price. Trying to claim letting innocent people die as a result of collateral damage is bad so they save them instead rings hollow in the face of that.

[Twi]

Originally Posted by The Green One

Why are they worrying about innocent's lifes when killing their Heroes screws the world and everyone in it anyway? Seems like a pointless waste of time beyond "Well yeah they still die but at least I didn't do it to them personally."

Well yeah but you caused it to happen so yes you did do it personally.

Probably so they could live with themselves afterwards. It's one thing to say, "just kill them all and be done with it", but its another carry it out. They just aren't those kinds of people and we have to accept that the author wrote them that way, because if they were being pragmatic, the series would have ended already.

Glass would have killed the other three heroes on that Ship when she first met instead of brushing them off, which would have basically screwed them over right then and there. The moment she didn't do so was the moment you basically had to accept they're basically half-assing it. So while we can complain about them playing nice, which is a luxury they can only afford because they're basically stronger than the protagonists, the series would have been over if they were the kind of people who would have gotten this done already.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by The Green One

You've missed my point as well apparently. My argument is over the futility of going out of their way to save people from collateral damage when they're going to kill them anyway as an end result of their own exact actions. It's a pointless waste of their time. You can try to rationalize it as internal conflict but contradictions are contradictions. They're trying to make themselves feel better even though they're still killing people, even if they aren't swinging the weapon that cuts them down or cast the spell either.

A way to define hypocrisy: the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.

What is their excuse of sacrificing a world and it's inhabitants to save their world. IS it the only way? Can they even know it's the only way? They "show" they have morals but they are still two people who consider genocide on a global scale to protect their world is an unfortunate but acceptable price. Trying to claim letting innocent people die as a result of collateral damage is bad so they save them instead rings hollow in the face of that.

You made my point for me with that definition. They never said what they're doing is the right or moral thing, and they never said anything about it being right or wrong to save people or anything like that. You're imposing assumptions of morals on them as well as assumptions of how much or little they know about the Waves. It could very well be that they're wrong and there are other ways to deal with the waves. It could even be that they're completely mistaken and killing the other Heroes and dooming this other world won't do anything. But they have clearly been completely convinced of it, and we have no real reason to believe that this was a conclusion they came to lightly.

If you choose you can certainly view this as them claiming some moral high ground or trying to make themselves feel better by saving people they're going to kill anyway, but I for one think it fits better and is a preferable viewpoint to think that jumping in to save people in danger is kind of wired into them (something I'd expect of a serious long-term hero) to the point that even if they know they're on a mission that will end in those people's death they still save them for now out of habit or reflex, or because there really is a part of them that can't stand this and in these short term moments that side wins out.

But again you didn't answer my question. Suppose for a moment that, knowing that doing so would doom their world to destruction or at least doom millions to death over the course of the Waves, those three chose not to attack the Heroes on the other side. They travel about and do their best to actively save people in trouble and protect them from the Waves. But they're refusing to carry out an action that would put an end to these Waves and save millions more than they can protect on their own. Are they hypocrites for trying to save and protect these people they're dooming by inaction?

[Kinematics]

So is this the conflict that Fitoria was talking about? The choice of whether to save the people or save the world? Obviously one of those choices involves beating the heroes from the other world, leaving that world to 'die' (?) while protecting your own. Finding a way to end the Waves while saving both worlds seems a much more difficult task.

I suspect the prior heroes made the choice to defeat the enemy heroes, which saves their world, but leaves regret, and that's why Fitoria was hoping that Naofumi would make the other choice.


I do wonder whether the conflict is always between these two same worlds (which seems unlikely, given the speculative premise that saving your own world destroys the other), or that each of these worlds are the survivors of a sort of battle royale among a multiverse of worlds? If it's a perpetual storm of colliding universes, I don't know how to even begin considering how to stop the Waves permanently, rather than simply protecting your world each time it happens.

It does open the question of what exactly happens to the world that was defeated, and why beating the heroes of that world 'saves' the other.


I do wonder about the origin of all the undead and monsters that fall from the sky in each Wave. Given L'arc, Terese, and Glass, it feels unlikely that the undead are from their own world. Do the monsters sort of spring into existence in the space between universes, and 'fall' in when the Wave whirlpools open?

Also, what's the deal with L'arc and Glass coming to the Melromarc world, when presumably this Wave will also be hitting their own world? Do the remaining two heroes on their side deal with the monsters that appear there? Given Glass and L'arc's strength, I wouldn't be surprised if two of their heroes could hold the line on their side.

And of course, how do they travel to the Melromarc world? Well, it's probably another function of the legendary weapons, like the teleportation feature.

[Twi]

Fitoria's comment about that choice is something that doesn't pop up until much later, like Season 2 materials.

[The Green One]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

You made my point for me with that definition. They never said what they're doing is the right or moral thing, and they never said anything about it being right or wrong to save people or anything like that. You're imposing assumptions of morals on them as well as assumptions of how much or little they know about the Waves. It could very well be that they're wrong and there are other ways to deal with the waves. It could even be that they're completely mistaken and killing the other Heroes and dooming this other world won't do anything. But they have clearly been completely convinced of it, and we have no real reason to believe that this was a conclusion they came to lightly.

If you choose you can certainly view this as them claiming some moral high ground or trying to make themselves feel better by saving people they're going to kill anyway, but I for one think it fits better and is a preferable viewpoint to think that jumping in to save people in danger is kind of wired into them (something I'd expect of a serious long-term hero) to the point that even if they know they're on a mission that will end in those people's death they still save them for now out of habit or reflex, or because there really is a part of them that can't stand this and in these short term moments that side wins out.

But again you didn't answer my question. Suppose for a moment that, knowing that doing so would doom their world to destruction or at least doom millions to death over the course of the Waves, those three chose not to attack the Heroes on the other side. They travel about and do their best to actively save people in trouble and protect them from the Waves. But they're refusing to carry out an action that would put an end to these Waves and save millions more than they can protect on their own. Are they hypocrites for trying to save and protect these people they're dooming by inaction?

I already answered that in my previous post. IS dooming this world the only way? Do they know it as fact? Can they know it as fact? Furthermore, how do they know this method will even work? Do they have a prior instance to reference? Are they grasping at straws out of desperation?

Look we're clearly just going around and around in circles until one of us gets bored and walks away. We have differing points of view on the same piece of information and I don't see us seeing eye to eye on this if we're now on the third repetition of this. Let's just agree to disagree at this point. I don't feel I'm wrong on this and neither do you. There's no objective "right" answer to this. Just different points of view. Which highlights the problem.

[Kinematics]

Originally Posted by Twi

Fitoria's comment about that choice is something that doesn't pop up until much later, like Season 2 materials.

Fitoria was talking about it at around 18:00-19:00 in episode 17.

Originally Posted by Fitoria

I can't tell you after how many Waves it will happen, but there will come a time when the world demands sacrifices from all life. The heroes will be forced to choose what they fight for in that battle.

Will you fight for the world, or will you fight for its people? If you choose the world, many lives will be lost. But you'll be able to fulfill your duty.

/And what if we choose the people?/

It'll be a thorny path.

There is a lot I have forgotten, but there is one thing I remember. Saving the world isn't the same as saving its people. Past heroes wished for their successors to save the people.

When it first came up, there was confusion about how "saving the world" could lead to many lives being lost. If you consider that saving "this" world means "the other" world's people are lost, it makes a lot more sense.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by The Green One

I already answered that in my previous post. IS dooming this world the only way? Do they know it as fact? Can they know it as fact? Furthermore, how do they know this method will even work? Do they have a prior instance to reference? Are they grasping at straws out of desperation?

Look we're clearly just going around and around in circles until one of us gets bored and walks away. We have differing points of view on the same piece of information and I don't see us seeing eye to eye on this if we're now on the third repetition of this. Let's just agree to disagree at this point. I don't feel I'm wrong on this and neither do you. There's no objective "right" answer to this. Just different points of view. Which highlights the problem.

One question: where did you answer my question? I didn't see any spot where you addressed the idea of them trying to save or protect people in their own world while refusing to do what they "know" will save everyone.

Otherwise indeed I agree. I can't deny that your POV could be valid as much as mine. But I don't see that as necessarily a problem. All depends on how things pan out. If we were to both read/watch to the very end of the entire story and feel satisfied that questions we had were answered, even if we disagreed on those answers, I think it'd be a good story. It's hardly unusual for even brilliant masterpieces to have multiple interpretations depending on individuals' assumptions and opinions. Especially when dealing with a trolley-type plot. Sometimes one really is faced with ethical questions that have no right answer, but that in and of itself makes it a compelling trial to face characters with.

[Chosen_Hero]

OH NO, WE'RE BEING ATTACKED BY BAD CG!

I gotta say, if Fitoria knew about the whole deal with the heroes from other worlds and didn't tell Naofumi than a lot of what she said about trust and all that bs just went down the drain in this episode.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

OH NO, WE'RE BEING ATTACKED BY BAD CG!

I gotta say, if Fitoria knew about the whole deal with the heroes from other worlds and didn't tell Naofumi than a lot of what she said about trust and all that bs just went down the drain in this episode.

I mean, even she admitted she didn't remember everything exactly about what went on back then and only had some vague recollections.

What she told Naofumi about what past Heroes had to do might've been the most she remembered about the Wave conflict, as Kinematics alluded to.

[Lex79]

So now I'm curious about what way Naofumi will find to save both worlds.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Frontier

Or does Therese count as a Hero? I thought she was more L'Arc's Raphtalia equivalent then a full-fledged Hero, but maybe she is one of them.

She is L'Arc's Raphtalia equivalent.

Originally Posted by frodonk

I guess the staff was already taken by the pope and his shape-shifting weapon, so will we also see a dagger and an axe in the source material?

The Pope wasn't a "staff hero". Just as Raphtalia using a sword does not mean Ren cannot be the Sword Hero.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by GDB

The Pope wasn't a "staff hero". Just as Raphtalia using a sword does not mean Ren cannot be the Sword Hero.

A part of me thinks she'd be a better Sword Hero at this point .

[The Green One]

As the three stooges have proven, that's a very LOW bar to clear.