2008-05-12, 06:47 | Link #121 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Age: 35
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Edit: Also, to see Sander's picture you have to quote him and then get the link from there (because he used a url to a page rather than a direct image link :P), not like it matters since we know which part he means anyway I'd always just passively thought that it was a VF-171, even though it (the 171) doesn't have any canards :s |
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2008-05-13, 03:05 | Link #125 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2004
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Kibou no hikari yo Messiah. SHAO PAI LON VF-25! Yes, it's a pretty silly name, isn't it? |
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2008-05-13, 03:27 | Link #126 | |
Illegal Additives
Join Date: Jun 2004
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I suspect that there's nothing really 'new' about the VF-25 other than the speed, control systems and manueverability to match/surpass the gold standard in combat mecha [that should still be the QR armour]. But that's for space combat and close assault, there's still atmospheric operations which the VF's were originally designed for. It's also rather easier to use in the hands of a novice pilot in civilian powered armour . If that makes it more accessible to the rank and file pilot as well as allows for better combat performance vs alien mecha, then it's enough to be a godsend in my book |
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2008-05-14, 16:00 | Link #127 | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Loveable Jerk
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Imported from the Analysis thread via Mod Request.
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This also isn't even really about the UN they fought the Supervision army for millennia: with the same weapons. You're telling me that over the course of thousands year long war there was nothing that could be adapted for better performance against there enemy? I find that... unlikely to say the least. Probably the only reason they ultimately won was becasue if the Supervison Army was anything like the later Varuta army it was staffed by brainwashed humans(/proto-culture) who where probably even less creative then the Zents where... I'd also venture that even at it's height the Supervision army was probably signifcantly smaller then the Zent Armada was. Quote:
Also assuming then won't break down why did the factory the UN captures seems so utterly feeble? It's managed to churn out at best a few thousand ships in like 50 years Quote:
They themselves probably didn't even realize this fact until after they joined the UN IMO after all they'd been basiclly brainwashed to fight and be utterly confident in victory, but that hardly means there own boosts to that effect are to be taken literally! Seriously how can a species whose sole means of reproduction is a cloning process they don't understand, that lacks even the concept of natural procreation, and is engaged in a seemingly unending war NOT be on the slow road to oblivion? Seriously use your noodle and do the math. Quote:
As I recall dialogue from the ep 12 from the mouth of Boddole no less when the supreme commader of a major fleet basiclly says "learning how these guys fixed that ship could give us an advantage..." Quote:
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The VF-19 and 22 were the first VFs that acutally seemed to be moving to fix this (and indeed as I recall fluff background says one of the goals of the project was to fix the weak weapons fit of older VFs). The VF-22 in particular was quite well armed sporting a pair of high powered fore-arm/wing route guns, a head laser, internal missile bays, and twin gunpods. I've acutally always felt that simply stripped of the whole thought control system the VF-22 would have been a superior machine, but it's possible that intangibles that are hard to gauge from simple statistics might have won it for the VF-19. (easier to build, probably cheaper, built using proven tech and so lower risk and probably faster into service) Of course the writers merrily ignored that and retconned us back to the VF-25 with it's one real basic weapon; oh and they gave it a knife... space fighter with a bloody knife what a joke. the VF-25 has left me massively underwhelmed in general basiclly I've been like "they took this piece of shit over the VF-22/19?" Quote:
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I’d say the Zent weapons are similar perhaps somewhat studier (due to the fact Zent’s didn’t understand them and probably didn’t baby them much as a result), but ultimately inferior to what more advanced civilizations that acutally understand how there weapons work can produce or maintain. I have no doubt that UN weapons require more upkeep, but I’ve also little doubt that they out-perform any non-upgraded Zentradi tech easily by the time of Frontier. Quote:
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I acutally perfer it in a number of aspects mostly how they dumped the singing bullshit pretty much totally after the first season Macross 7 in particular is EASILY worse then anything in robotech IMO. Robotech had some dog ideas to be sure, but so does Macross and frankly until Frontier and excluding Plus Macross had yet to produce anything after the initial saga that I found nearly as interesting as the Robotech EU. Robotech started off as a cash in I'll admit, but IMO some decent writing and neat ideas have turned it into an interesting universe in it's own right; different, but not automatically "inferior" despite what some overzealous fanboys would have you believe.
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2008-05-14, 16:50 | Link #128 | ||||||||||
Go to DMC! Go to DMC!
Join Date: May 2008
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Just to respond to comments made in posts I directly participated in...
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The FAST pack-equipped Super Valkyries seemed to have been purpose-built to counter this lack of armament (lasers in the arms, missile pods), and could apparently be retrofitted easily and quickly onto standard Valkyries, like they would missiles into hardpoints. With this sort of upgrade, standard VF's seemed to experience a major boost to combat performance, to judge by how Hikaru finished off Quamzin's flight in its first deployment along with how he was able to take on a small capital ship by himself during the battle for Earth. Quote:
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And the way I understood the line from that episode was that the Zentradi has SPECIFICALLY lost the ability to make or repair Reaction weaponry, which is part of why they wanted the ASS-1 intact, as it apparently had the data on how to do so... data that the humans obviously understood, and as you've noted improved on, in the decades since the ASS-1 landed on Earth. They could make ships fine in those automated factories, ditto weapons; but the Zentradi, lacking any culture or society beyond what they had, also lacked the ability to recover or rediscover that knowledge themselves since they lacked the vital spark of creativity and imagination which humans had... which drove human innovation. Quote:
The VF-25 in its basic form is somewhat underarmed (gun pod, knife, lasers on head, missile hardpoints), but it seems to have been designed with the ability to easily fit on other packs in order to improve its capabilities; a modular approach which makes the whole mecha easier to upgrade or change mission roles without expensive retrofitting. Quote:
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Did anyone else look at that last ship in the preview and think "Meltlandi Attack Ship'? |
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2008-05-14, 17:42 | Link #130 | ||||||
Catholic = Cat addiction?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: MURICA!!
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And is yours? Because if anything, you sound far more angry than I will be in the next 24 hours or so. You are certainly not a very merry fellow, tsk tsk tsk.
Chill out, the Zentradi won't burn your house down tomorrow. Quote:
On the other hand, were the Zents fighting a war of annihilation against the Supervision Army and other, more minor civilizations? Yeah. Earth wasn't the only planet they plan to destroy. And when they finally put their mind to it, they pretty much destroyed Earth, too. Quote:
And of course, the galaxy is so tiny we would be seeing waves of Zent ships just swarming the Solar System. I mean, nevermind that a bulk of them is still engaged in a grueling war of attrition against the Supervision Army. That, and no where had it been stated the Supervision Army were defeated. Nowhere. In fact, here is what a production member once stated: "The Supervision Army, while an immensely powerful force to be feared, has not yet encountered mankind. We don't know when they will, after all, the galaxy is a big place" Quote:
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As for that Zent gun, yeah, it was also floating in the vacuum of space. Not like dirt suddenly got in or oxygen making it rust. As for your comment about newer Macross cannons being better than Zentradi/Meltlandi versions? Not quite. If you in fact watched the original series, or even DYRL (which is confirmed to be semi-canon), you will note in one scene, a tiny Meltlandi gunship simply ripped through the Macross for a very long distance with its main gun without even breaking a sweat! The Zentradi main guns also have a faster rate of fire than their Macross counterparts, which needed a long time to reload, and this process is only prolonged in Macross 7 for a trade-off of a more powerful gun. Quote:
And why all of the sudden we were talking about Macross 7? Where did that came from? If you want to complaint about M7 (which I am sure isn't 'duly vented' in your case), there is another thread for that stuff. But, just so you know, as much as I do not appreciate Macross 7, it was also insanely popular, and lots of people dig that stuff. So just because you don't like it, well, too bad. Robotech on the other hand, was nothing more than a badly rearranged series of programs that would have been an affront to modern senses. It managed to create more BS than actually answering its own BS. Even when the answers were available, they were conveniently 'forgotten' by the next series and left more holes open than closed. Heck, they don't even know how to fix this 'patchwork' of theirs, as I saw their attempts as creating even more confusion for themselves. And neat ideas? Cut me some slack boyo, most of their better 'neat' ideas were rip-offs anyway. So if you are still clinging onto that stuff they sold you on the 80s, you haven't improved one single bit. - Tak Last edited by Tak; 2008-05-14 at 23:55. |
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2008-05-14, 20:20 | Link #131 | |
Holy Beast ~Wuff!~
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there's also a thread for all that Robotech heathen stuff too, Tak.
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2008-05-15, 07:16 | Link #133 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
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On to other things now... :P
I am wondering very hard about the "Macross Quarter" This is not the Colony's Main ship (which from Macross 7 is attached at the front of the ship) Its clearly transformable, and if they are taking it out, means they are confident all the bugs are worked out. But here is the thing that makes me wonder most. Why was this ship used versus the the Colonies main ship. Was it because they did not want to leave MF defenseless, or its the next generation Macross flags ship with more fire power? According to the story only the SMS has the VF-25, which is basically the only VF on that ship. Is it "their" ship? It would explain why it had all the markers of a "new" ship in the show. |
2008-05-15, 07:33 | Link #134 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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The choice of sending out Macross Quarter is probably predicated on a combination of feeling that it's sufficient (along with the Guantanamo carriers) for the task and feeling that its loss would not cripple the fleet. The full name is SMS Macross Quarter, so it's a safe guess that it's an SMS ship. While it's privately owned, most SMS personnel seem to have been subsumed into the NUNS military structure; hence Kathy's presence on the bridge as a liaison officer.
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2008-05-15, 07:43 | Link #135 | |
Holy Beast ~Wuff!~
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It thus defeats the entire purpose of the ship to deploy it away from Frontier. Asking "Why?" is akin to asking "why" The "Pentagon" was not deployed with it's forces. Thus it makes sense to send a ship that can act as the local command centre, or part of a joint expedition force HQ structure. I'm sure the S.M.S won't be the only Contractor with there own Command ship, but reflecting on current hardware, we can assume that they are a rather more fortunate outfit with a better sponsor, so the "Macross Quarter" might indeed be a unique unit on the front. It's probably unique in that the NUNS has never developed a smaller version of a transformable Capital ship. Probably because the combined arms of traditional medium sized capital ships and Valkyries patch that gap and also the lack of need. Since if it requires mobile HQ that requires a Gun-ship HQ, they just send out one of the traditional classes i.e. "New Macross" from a colony planet. However it seems that tactically if you already on a mobile fleet, the requirements of a deployable mobile HQ in smaller 1/4th of a full size class, therefore easier to maintain, is good idea if you are heading into a sector that you might expect to encounter an unknown enemy, where you might be expected to set up an advancing front...or secure a retreat. It works both ways.
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2008-05-15, 09:11 | Link #138 |
Macross Lifer!
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Ok this is has been bothering me, what powers the Valkyries? I ask after seeing the Vajra use their seemingly abundant energy to make their energy conversion armor almost impenetrable.
It seems like increasing the energy output would be the best way to boost the defensive ability of the VF's without having to had heavier armor plates. |
2008-05-15, 09:30 | Link #140 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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