Macross Delta - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[Thess]

Originally Posted by CriiGV

Nah, I don't think Mirage will win the triangle. She doesn't have the same emotional/inspiring impact that Freyja has on Hayate.

Don't crush my dreams.



Anyway, I understand what you say, but I think they can easily make Hayate bond with Mirage with some flags properly made: Mirage can understand the whole pilot angle which she's talked with him before (similarly how Freyja and he bonded with the whole "my senpai is mean" earlier) and the stuff with family burdening, follow your own path. At the same time, it would (sic) help her growth to actually walk the talk. Maybe she needs him to grow her wings and fly while Freyja doesn't necessarily need Hayate (Hayate does need Freyja, though).

Freyja having a larger than life concern was highlight in this episode while Mirage is concerned about Hayate which makes her a worse person but maybe a more likely one to be his love interest.

However, I think Freyja's going to have the final say, instead of Hayate. Hayate is really into Freyja (in general, not just romantically). The thing about Freyja is that she's becoming one of those "too good for this sinful world" characters and those have some unattainable tag attached. Mirage is obviously lame in comparison, but she's a girl Hayate can settle with. I don't ignore that Hayate might have to fight back to get Freyja back (as your ENDING theory), but I also think this could also work. Yes, the resolution would be bad, but it's Mirage, what did you expect? I may sound cynical, but I think is less about what Hayate will choose or what will be good for Mirage and more about Freyja.

Freyja's story needs to be wrapped up in a grand way and I'm not sure if her story would benefit of hooking up with Hayate.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Freyja would be instrumental (or vocal) in making the common population of Windermere appreciate culture again, after the suppression of the last seven years, and a relationship with a foul human person would also help bridge the gap between her world and everybody else.

And of course that's Max/Milia v3.0, but why not?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Thess

Well, I think she was never meant to be a protagonist like those two. She's still a major character, not a supporting one.

Thats what we would like to think. Just not whats happening. This episode is the most extensive use of her character yet. Most of the time she comes on screen, she would utter a few lines and/or make a snarky remark before fading into relative obscurity.

Yeah, isn't she supposed to Valkyrie dance duet with Hayate or is that just OP trolling?

One of the protagonists? Don't feel it. Try harder.

- Tak

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Tak

Yeah, isn't she supposed to Valkyrie dance duet with Hayate or is that just OP trolling?

She already did, briefly during a Walkure concert. That was the OP of season 1 too, so maybe it meant to cover that scene.

[CriiGV]

Dammit Thess. I will go down with this ship.

Spoiler for in it to win it:

The family burden while Mirage shares that problem as well, it's more logical for Freyja to help Hayate out with that. I can imagine Hayate would feel a certain guilt against Freyja and Freyja would be the one to snap him out of it. Freyja -wars are never good, what's important is that we forgive, love and learn to go forward and live in peace. I don't blame you and you shouldn't blame yourself. The past does not define the future - Wion. Plus, if they both overcome it (Freyja will at least be a bit shocked, "Hayate, your dad was responsible for that tragedy...? I..." but they'd pick themselves up eventually and thus making their relationship all the more significant.)

This might sound mean but how can Mirage be the one to pick up Hayate if she can't even pick herself up from her own legacy? The same applies for "follow your path". God I'm terrible, I don't mean this in a bad way it's just...Mirage has no room to talk about picking Hayate up when she herself doesn't follow her own example. It's like, two wounded dogs licking each other's wounds. That's....kind of a pathetic way to go on about a relationship. Oh god, I'm so sorry. I swear this is no diss to Mirage.

Plus, the whole reason Hayate is following his path is because Freyja inspired him to do so. When they're down, they pick each other up. And it's not true that Freyja does not need Hayate. When she was unsure about staying in Walkure and continuing to sing, Hayate reached out to her and picked her up. When Hayate was all "Messer why did you have to die and never show us how great you were, we could've been friends", Freyja was the one "Messer was a great person. He loved flying and that's why he paid so much attention to all of you."

I don't think Freyja is coming on to be too good for Hayate. If anything, they're being set up as these two heroes who will be the ones to lead into a new era. Hayate with his desire to free the skies and end the war, and Freyja with her desire to end the war and save everyone with her songs.

Then there's the fact that Hayate and Freyja are these type of people who never contemplate love or a partner as a means to achieve happiness or feel that they need someone else by their side. But now you have that slowly changing with how they're learning to depend on each other.

Basically it's like

Hayate and Freyja = Two spirits who think they walk a path on their own but learn that they don't have to be alone.

And Mirage = A spirit who doesn't think she's good enough but has to realize that she can stand on her own two feet.

Also, UNMEI and all of that foreshadowing.

We have the ED of Hayate chasing after Freyja and catching up to her. We have the OP with Mirage fading away as Hayate and Freyja take the stage with their resonance behind them with the lyrics "We burn our lives for this fusion"

And the obvious Max and Milia of Delta. That's like, the cherry on top. Two ends of the war. One end was the cause, the other represents the affected. Love brought them together and now they fight to bring peace and build bridges.

P.S: Freyja deserves to have love. She's head over heels for the guy, if episode 16 and their "God Bless You" song is any indicator. I just want her to be happy and sing and have love and live a wonderful life.

10/10 would definitely ship again.

But at the end of the day, whatever Freyja chooses is fine. As long as she's happy.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Thess

She already did, briefly during a Walkure concert. That was the OP of season 1 too, so maybe it meant to cover that scene.

That wasn't dancing in the opening but flying a combat formation as Brera/Alto or Milla/Max did.

What you mean is episode 4 after Delta Squad performed a star while walküre held a concert. Hayate broke out of the formation and chased after Mirage. The maneuver both performed like both were dancing.

[Tak]

I went through all the trouble to meet Hory Froating Head in person, shook the bastard's hand, and the reward bestowed upon me was Stalled!Mirage.

Holy ProtocultureReaction$h!tballs.

Great way to diss a fan!

- Tak

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Welcome to the Minmay and Ranka side of the room.

[CrowKenobi]

Okay, let's return to the topic at hand and move the character discussion to the proper character thread(s).

Thanks.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by CriiGV

Dammit Thess. I will go down with this ship.

Spoiler for in it to win it:

The family burden while Mirage shares that problem as well, it's more logical for Freyja to help Hayate out with that. I can imagine Hayate would feel a certain guilt against Freyja and Freyja would be the one to snap him out of it. Freyja -wars are never good, what's important is that we forgive, love and learn to go forward and live in peace. I don't blame you and you shouldn't blame yourself. The past does not define the future - Wion. Plus, if they both overcome it (Freyja will at least be a bit shocked, "Hayate, your dad was responsible for that tragedy...? I..." but they'd pick themselves up eventually and thus making their relationship all the more significant.)

This might sound mean but how can Mirage be the one to pick up Hayate if she can't even pick herself up from her own legacy? The same applies for "follow your path". God I'm terrible, I don't mean this in a bad way it's just...Mirage has no room to talk about picking Hayate up when she herself doesn't follow her own example. It's like, two wounded dogs licking each other's wounds. That's....kind of a pathetic way to go on about a relationship. Oh god, I'm so sorry. I swear this is no diss to Mirage.

Plus, the whole reason Hayate is following his path is because Freyja inspired him to do so. When they're down, they pick each other up. And it's not true that Freyja does not need Hayate. When she was unsure about staying in Walkure and continuing to sing, Hayate reached out to her and picked her up. When Hayate was all "Messer why did you have to die and never show us how great you were, we could've been friends", Freyja was the one "Messer was a great person. He loved flying and that's why he paid so much attention to all of you."

I don't think Freyja is coming on to be too good for Hayate. If anything, they're being set up as these two heroes who will be the ones to lead into a new era. Hayate with his desire to free the skies and end the war, and Freyja with her desire to end the war and save everyone with her songs.

Then there's the fact that Hayate and Freyja are these type of people who never contemplate love or a partner as a means to achieve happiness or feel that they need someone else by their side. But now you have that slowly changing with how they're learning to depend on each other.

Basically it's like

Hayate and Freyja = Two spirits who think they walk a path on their own but learn that they don't have to be alone.

And Mirage = A spirit who doesn't think she's good enough but has to realize that she can stand on her own two feet.

Also, UNMEI and all of that foreshadowing.

We have the ED of Hayate chasing after Freyja and catching up to her. We have the OP with Mirage fading away as Hayate and Freyja take the stage with their resonance behind them with the lyrics "We burn our lives for this fusion"

And the obvious Max and Milia of Delta. That's like, the cherry on top. Two ends of the war. One end was the cause, the other represents the affected. Love brought them together and now they fight to bring peace and build bridges.

P.S: Freyja deserves to have love. She's head over heels for the guy, if episode 16 and their "God Bless You" song is any indicator. I just want her to be happy and sing and have love and live a wonderful life.

10/10 would definitely ship again.

But at the end of the day, whatever Freyja chooses is fine. As long as she's happy.

All good points. But I'm still not convinced Freyja's story needs to end with hooking up with Hayate. She already feels larger than life. Not in a Minmay way of Hikaru telling her she's like that or has to become like that, but that she realizes she is already. Meanwhile, Mirage is weak willed and needs Hayate because she can't do anything on her own. If her story was about standing up on her own two feet, all her growth and changes so far wouldn't be ruled by her relationship with Hayate, IMO. I didn't say it would be a great love story, but I don't think you can underestimate how low could Mirage stoop.

Think about it, Freyja and Hayate were affected by different people (even if each other are the strongest catalyst), but Mirage's solely reliant on her barely discernable changes because of Hayate.

Maybe there needs to be a triangle discussion (at last?!).

[Dauerlutscher]

Maybe Kawamori just wanted to avoid in Delta what happened with his favourite Ranka in Frontier?
I mean, why create a character with a good and interesting basis for a characterdevelopment but don't do anything with it and at the same time everyone else is treated better?

[magnuskn]

Well, my assertion still is that Kawamori is somewhat traumatized about the severe reaction to TV series Ranka and hence is actively working to elevate the loli singer archetype at the cost of the other two main protagonists. Yes, yes, Freyja is more akin to Sheryl than Ranka (thank the gods for that!), but her being so far ahead of the other two MC's in terms of character development is really strange and I'm trying to find an explanation.

[ippus]

...I REALLY want to refute this Freyja - Sheryl comparison but I'm doing my utmost to refrain. I'm hoping there is actual legit reasoning for this in the episodes I'm haitusing from cus if she was anything like what I know of her so far this is totally ridiculous-

-drags self away-

[magnuskn]

It's more a thing which Thess thinks is true and I don't have the energy to dispute it in detail. Sheryl was, of course, about 20x as awesome as Freyja, who still comes off to me as being way too childish (which is why I really see her as a continuation of Ranka, rather than Sheryl as a country bumkin, as Thess thinks she is).

[Thess]

Oh god, please don't compare Mirage's "development" with neither Ranka or Minmay's. Ranka's development was a bit meh (she had the "she's a foil issue") but she actually did change and had a overachieving storyarc. Minmay is possibly the best-developed character in SDFM. Is she the most likeable? No, but she had a realistic take of what could a teenage girl do in her shoes in her circumstances - with ups and downs - and she grew up. Mirage could only hope she could even reach to Minmay's pinky of character development.

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

Maybe Kawamori just wanted to avoid in Delta what happened with his favourite Ranka in Frontier?

His favorite in Frontier was Sheryl. You can even hear him speaking of her in almost level of adoration to his beloved Minmay as the "sun" and such. I don't even know why you think he liked Ranka more when he tossed all the best and glamorous Minmay traits to Sheryl instead of Ranka.

As for this "Freyja is Sheryl/Ranka" comparison. Uh, all idols in Macross, IMO, come and are inspired by the same model: Lynn Minmay. However, there are those who are far more reactive, brooding, immature (not confused with supercificial childishness) side: like Ranka or Mylene. While others have the most mature and proactive side: Sheryl, Basara and now Freyja, for example. IIRC, Kawamori wanted to make with Freyja, an ultimate proactive and risk-taking idol on their vein. That's what I meant with Freyja is more like Sheryl. Her musical style and her relationship with Mikumo in that senpai-kohai way is more like Ranka but that's where similitudes ends, IMO. Because she heavily borrows elements of Sheryl, particularly in the movies, in her relationship with Hayate and some traits she displays, even if they are developed in a different way (ditto with her 'Ranka role' toward Mikumo, Mikumo is nowhere as nice to her as Sheryl was to Ranka, she was more a harsh and tough love type instead of gentle nudging):

Spoiler for those elements are:

girl of the enemy faction (Galaxy/Windermere), some espionage stuff, finds her new home within the cast as a foreigner and makes protagonist think about the value of home too, possible childhood connection with the main character, gave the sky/wings to the main character and is the single-catalyst and source of inspiration, special fold connection where protagonist feels her emotions/sorrow, scene she powers up to save main character from falling while everyone watches (Obelisk-episode 13 parallel), she'll die young storyarc, etc.

There are a lot of elements lifted from Sheryl that were popular and that Kawamori reapplied on Freyja. Of course she lacks her mature, worldly vibe because she's younger and from the countryside. They aren't a copy/paste, but I hardly see similitudes in her personality with Ranka. I see more similitudes with Mirage and Ranka: not temper or superficial stuff, but their tendency to sulk, brood, low self esteem or be introspective. While Sheryl and Freyja are far more action-oriented and extrovert. They are different characters, naturally. Sheryl is more angsty and less headstrong than Freyja, Freyja is more childish and lacks Sheryl's class.

[krln99]

I may be dating myself, and the love triangle was kind of reversed (at this point in the series), but did anyone else get Macross I, Ep 36 "Sayonara Yasashisa" (the last ep of the series) feels with the snow at the end?! I fail to believe the way that scene was framed was mere coincidence.