Macross Delta - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[Thess]

Originally Posted by D-Joe

More like just you.
Many "others" not a fan of her, but i don't see they hate her like how you doing right now.

Yes, so? At least now even the wonder twins have some "meaningful" plot contribution as of now as part of the young fanatic and bloodthirsty viewpoint of the Windermere who believe in Roid's propaganda with Bogue, which serves as a contrast with the older moderates like Cassim or Herman who are against Roid's new plans.

Meanwhile Mirage is just shallow fanservice girl without any input to the plot besides the boring romance. She can be taken out and she won't be missed.

And no she don't ruined the show, writers ruined the show.

Things are simple, i want her more developed, you want delete her since beginning.
Both way can improve the show, that's for sure.

But the writers end up half-ass done with her, therefore it's writer's fault.

But I like the show in most aspect except what is ruined by Mirage's toxic presence. So if you remove her (with a good death scene), it'll be perfect to me.

Why are you so arms up defending an awful character? I don't remember you defending Ranka, who was 10xtimes better written character in Frontier (yes, she made mistakes, but at least she wasn't just a shallow fanservice character and throwaway romance plot device). I don't remember you or anyone blaming the writers about that or about how Hikaru or/and Minmay were acting obnoxious when the triangle prolonged itself in the original show.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Thess

But I like the show in most aspect except what is ruined by Mirage's toxic presence.

Jeez, she's toxic, now? I mean, I don't even...
That's it, I'm out.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Thess

Meanwhile Mirage is just shallow fanservice girl without any input to the plot besides the boring romance. She can be taken out and she won't be missed.

Oh. If I remember correct, Apple Girl would be dropping from the sky hitting the sea or the ground if Mirage would not have been there.

Or Hayate would not have been able to bridge electrity, because it was Mirages boobs what gave him the exact grip.

[Triple_R]

I don't want to rain too hard on Mirage, because really, her biggest fans have it hard enough as it is.

That being said, Thess does have a point.

Through 16 episodes, what impact has Mirage had on the plot? What impact has she had on other characters?

She and Messer helped Hayate in the practical aspects of becoming a better pilot. She ironically helped Freyja and Hayate to realize their romantic feelings for each other. Anything else?

Reina and Makina have probably had more plot/character impact than Mirage has. Reina and Makina were critically important plot-movers in Episodes 7 and 8. Reina and Makina have also played important roles in Freyja and Hayate's development as characters. Reina and Makina also tend to drive romance drama a lot in this show.

Heck, even mysterious Mikumo has arguably been more important than Mirage has been. I would argue that Mikumo has influenced Freyja more than Mirage has influenced Hayate.

Now that I think about it, each and every one of the Walkure members have had more plot/character impact than Mirage has. Mirage has nothing to compare to Kaname's big moments, after all. Delta is less about its core triangle than it is about Hayate and Walkure. Hayate and Walkure (as a whole) are the real stars of the show.

If you replaced Mirage with a random female mecha pilot, would anything change? Anything at all?


But yeah, this is a writing issue, or at least it's one area where the writing is unusually weak. Mirage badly needs a scene where she takes center stage, and steals the show for awhile. Characterization-wise, it might be too late for her, but they can still salvage her as a badass pilot at least. If any Aerial Knight other than Keith dies, they should have Mirage be the one to deliver the finishing strike (if Keith were to actually die, that will almost certainly be at Hayate's hands).

[Thess]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Jeez, she's toxic, now? I mean, I don't even...
That's it, I'm out.

Yes, if wasn't for Mirage, Freyja's and Hayate's friendship would have remained like that. Don't forget it was my favorite relationship and because of her presence it became something muddy and romantic. Ugh.

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Oh. If I remember correct, Apple Girl would be dropping from the sky hitting the sea or the ground if Mirage would not have been there.

Or Hayate would not have been able to bridge electrity, because it was Mirages boobs what gave him the exact grip.

Replace Mirage with Chuck or Arad. There you go. Anyone could fill her role (better yet: Messer, a real squad leader and decent pilot skills with an actual believable close relationship with Hayate. Just switch which mentor dies to Keith, and there you go, show improved vastly and Mirage could have been useful, taking a bullet for Messer instead of gawking as always in the battlefield). Meanwhile, the twins and Bogue vs Quasim/Cassim and Hermann views are specific generational, so their roles cannot go to anyone else.

The boobs didn't give Hayate any 'exact grip' (that part? just fanservice: her main role, you see), but the fact Mirage stopped acting like an idiotic little girl and held him closer when she was avoiding that because so embarrassing to save thousands of civilians lives! Give Chuck that scene or dunno Messer, and you'll just have Hayate saving lives faster (and lots of BL fanart made of the scene, I guess). Mirage so far is only pivotal to develop the boring and forced triangle and be fanservice I guess?

[D-Joe]

Waste my time.

Are there ignore or black list or something similar feature in Animesuki?

[Thess]

Originally Posted by D-Joe

Waste my time.

Are there ignore or black list or something similar feature in Animesuki?

Maybe if you actually brought up a valid reason what is Mirage's input besides:

1. Horrible romantic developments.
2. Trashy fanservice.

Because all her actions can be done better by someone else already. She's nothing special. If you have a problem with someone's opinion, you can scroll down.

[Dauerlutscher]

Guys, I think Triple_R has a point about Thess having a point and pretty much nailed it.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

Guys, I think Triple_R has a point about Thess having a point and pretty much nailed it.

I know I do. It's amazing how they cannot argue against it, right? I expected to love Mirage and have her as my favorite character since the trailer. Things that didn't happen. Even if she suddenly starts to have relevance and do things, it's far too late for me to forget she's been a non character for over half of the show. And no, it's not a writer's issue when they handle everybody's else somewhat decently (from passable to fantastic). Mirage has a lot of screentime, so it's not this problem. IMO, she's meant as a foil for Freyja and Hayate, that's why she's slow, takes no risks, and she's fairly dishonest with her feelings, crushed by her family legacy and constraints. Unfortunately, I'm not interested in such a character or have eternal patience for her to finally make progress.

[Tak]

As I said before, Mirage is one step away from being less than a supporting character at this point.

Unfortunately, she is not Mao Nome, and exist in a full blown TV series as opposed to a short OVA.

This pains me greatly as I still like Mirage a great deal, and retain a degree of faith in her character development. Although its an ever dwindling one.

- Tak

[Dauerlutscher]

Originally Posted by Thess

I know I do. It's amazing how they cannot argue against it, right? I expected to love Mirage and have her as my favorite character since the trailer. Things that didn't happen. Even if she suddenly starts to have relevance and do things, it's far too late for me to forget she's been a non character for over half of the show. And no, it's not a writer's issue when they handle everybody's else somewhat decently (from passable to fantastic). Mirage has a lot of screentime, so it's not this problem. She's meant as a foil for Freyja and Hayate, that's why she's slow, takes no risks, and she's fairly dishonest with her feelings, crushed by her family legacy and constraints.

When Kawamori can handle everybody else somewhat decently and only Mirage not, than it's the author fault for wasting a character. Why create a love triangle in a Marcoss show when it's only fake in the first place?

Originally Posted by Tak

As I said before, Mirage is one step away from being less than a supporting character at this point.

Unfortunately, she is not Mao Nome, and exist in a full blown TV series as opposed to a short OVA.

This pains me greatly as I still like Mirage a great deal, and retain a degree of faith in her character development. Although its an ever dwindling one.

- Tak

I don't get why they created her in the first place...

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Tak

As I said before, Mirage is one step away from being less than a supporting character at this point.

I don't think this is the issue here. Mirage has screentime which supporting characters don't. Her personality and character traits are what are unappealing: she is the reactionary type of character, introvert and timid with her own decisions and emotions, unable to brave away the heavy shadow of her family 99% of the time. It's all this package put together with a stoic/serious front (which was what I originally liked) that made of quite a problematic mix because it doesn't let her growth too much (at least for now until the inevitable "she was good all along" cheap plot development).

So because of this, even if she has screentime, she does little with all what she has. Because Hayate and Freyja are fast moving action-oriented characters who are extroverts and seamlessly move the plot, she has to foil them and be the opposite which of course going to be overshadowed. I think I did mention this early, even if I think the show does not need Mirage except for the mandatory love triangle development, I think her problem is that she's foiling the two protagonists. She's not just Freyja's 'rival' heroine which means all she does will be compared and contrasted with her but also she's Hayate's rival and pilot comrade, which means her professional performance will be compared to his. Remember how much of polarity Ranka suffered because she was Sheryl's foil, not just as heroine but also as idol (with scenes with her brooding about unable to)? Yeah, it's the same, but worse because she has to keep up with Hayate and Freyja (also with mandatory brooding scenes that Mirage feels left out just happened with Ranka; I think her envy isn't just of romantic nature). It would have been better for her character, I think, if Mirage had been a doctor (like her father or like Hayate's mom), struggling to find her own path against her expectations of piloting. I don't know. It may have salvaged her and become her own character rather "the chick who foils the main characters". I wanted a female pilot but not like this, the doctor path would have maybe allowed her to have relevance if she happened to find a way to help to cure Var too. Her problem is very similar to Ranka's, but without the plot bonus and popularity that came with being a singer.

I hope for one day to have another triangle like with Misa and Minmay, because both characters shone separately, and how it should be.

[Dauerlutscher]

Originally Posted by Thess

I don't think this is the issue here. Mirage has screentime which supporting characters don't. Her personality and character traits are what are unappealing: she is the reactionary type of character, introvert and timid with her own decisions and emotions, unable to brave away the heavy shadow of her family 99% of the time. It's all this package put together with a stoic/serious front (which was what I originally liked) that made of quite a problematic mix because it doesn't let her growth too much (at least for now until the inevitable "she was good all along" cheap plot development).

So because of this, even if she has screentime, she does little with all what she has. Because Hayate and Freyja are fast moving action-oriented characters who are extroverts, she has to foil them and be the opposite which of course going to be overshadowed.

That is all a great basis for a good characterdevelopment in a story...but they chose to do nothing with it.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

That is all a great basis for a good characterdevelopment in a story...but they chose to do nothing with it.

I think they chose to do it this way. Like I said, I think Mirage is a foil character of sorts. Wasn't she created last? IIRC, Hayate was also a late character and his personality was different. I think they just developed Mirage after this change to counterbalance Freyja and Hayate (after the personality make over).

Of course, I still expect Mirage to win the romantic triangle because it's all she has and what they are focusing on her so far. And maybe a faint hope Freyja's and Hayate's relationship will return to what it used to be.

[Dauerlutscher]

Originally Posted by Thess

I think they chose to do it this way. Like I said, I think Mirage is a foil character of sorts. Wasn't she created last? IIRC, Hayate was also a late character and his personality was different. I think they just developed Mirage after this change to counterbalance Freyja and Hayate (after the personality make over).

Of course, I still expect Mirage to win the romantic triangle because it's all she has and what they are focusing on her so far. And maybe a faint hope Freyja's and Hayate's relationship will return to what it used to be.

If that is what they intended, they should have done a better job.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

If that is what they intended, they should have done a better job.

Mirage or her triangle role? Because, despite of disliking the triangle, I think it's not a bad job to set her up to hook up with Hayate so far (probably because most of her screentime is her relationship with him I guess).

[Dauerlutscher]

Originally Posted by Thess

Mirage or her triangle role? Because, despite of disliking the triangle, I think it's not a bad job to set her up to hook up with Hayate so far (probably because most of her screentime is her relationship with him I guess).

Mirage and her whole role in in this show...

[Tak]

Mirage's focus had been less than that of Frjya and Hayate, with corresponding screentime to boot. Nevermind that Mikumo's characterization thus far is even better than hers. I mean, I get it, Delta is about Walkure, but what a waste. What an absolute waste of her talents and what an absolute waste of her name. If Max could break the 4th wall, he probably would have Macross-cannoned the writers tarnishing his granddaughter. Yeesh.

- Tak

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

Mirage and her whole role in in this show...

While her progress of why she falls for Hayate (why tho???) is bad as usual, her role as potential love interest isn't bad (if you ignore her feelings appear to come from nowhere):

1. Blind interest on his issues (while Freyja spreads thin which means she might have a larger role which isn't to be Hayate's girlfriend).
2. Acts 'feminine' around him.
3. Wants to talk about Hayate's issues and reach out. He's just not necessary interested to talk to her for now. Nonetheless, it's established she tries to seek him to talk about his problems and things she understands (burden of legacy, pilot stuff, etc) which could lead to potential bonding.

Originally Posted by Tak

Mirage's focus had been less than that of Frjya and Hayate, with corresponding screentime to boot.

Well, I think she was never meant to be a protagonist like those two. She's still a major character, not a supporting one.

[CriiGV]

Nah, I don't think Mirage will win the triangle. She doesn't have the same emotional/inspiring impact that Freyja has on Hayate. At the rate we're going, it's like Hayate and Freyja are Max and Milia 2.0 in the sense that two opposite ends of the war come together to show that they can live in peace (even their character designs hint at it. Blue delta/Red Walkure. Blue and Orange fold waves that are complementary colors). The resonance, now sharing feelings a la Sheryl/Alto, the mp3 player, Hayate's dad Nuking the Windies (strongly hinted at) it all just screams UNMEI.

Also I'd feel pretty cheated if someone won the triangle simply because "the romance was their sole purpose". If we don't get a Freyja end, a sky end would be much better than a Mirage end.

I hardly believe fixing Mirage's problems simply because "here you go, have this boy" would work. Mirage comes off to me like the character that has to learn to stand up by themselves and that they don't need someone to make them happy/validate them. Mirage puts too much importance of legacy and validation. Typically the best resolution in these cases is accepting that you, yourself are enough. Having her win a silly triangle with her problems would be the biggest middle finger towards what an actual relationship should be.

Anyway, that's just how I view it.