What Gundam shows count as war anime? [All shows]

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by 4tran

Well, there were those newtype ghosts, and Quattro's miraculous escape...

Sheeesh...I wouldn't say those two instances describe in totality the feel and atmosphere of the series on whole ...

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Sheeesh...I wouldn't say those two instances describe in totality the feel and atmosphere of the series on whole ...

Nor would I, or else I wouldn't have liked Zeta. Kira's survival after Strike got blown up was poorly written, and so was Mwu's "death" in Seed. However, it's not as if they were completely without precedent. Using these events as a knock against one show without doing so for another for similar reasons is just poor logic.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Nor would I, or else I wouldn't have liked Zeta. Kira's survival after Strike got blown up was poorly written, and so was Mwu's "death" in Seed. However, it's not as if they were completely without precedent.

Not quite sure what your insinuation is, but if it's somehow defencing or giving validity to whatever goal you have in considering SEED or GSD as more of a "war anime" by your standards I'm missing something...

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Not quite sure what your insinuation is, but if it's somehow defencing or giving validity to whatever goal you have in considering SEED or GSD as more of a "war anime" by your standards I'm missing something...

If I said that I wanted to discuss Seed or Destiny in this thread, I wouldn't have prefaced it with "As an addendum, I would prefer it if the discussion was confined to the first eight Gundam TV shows - without any reference to the OVAs, mangas, audio dramas, and what not." The first eight TV shows being:

1. Mobile Suit Gundam
2. Zeta Gundam
3. Gundam ZZ
4. Victory Gundam
5. G Gundam
6. Gundam Wing
7. Gundam X
8. Turn A Gundam

I wasn't making any insinuation. I was just pointing out that if you use a criteria for criticizing a show, then you should apply that criteria consistently.

[Crusader]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

I mean obviously that's gonna be subjective...I saw Wing before I saw Zeta and I enjoyed Zeta more for the nuaince of it's battles...The kid in me loved Wing for it's high-paced, high energy, high color explosion fest, but the adult in me loved Zeta for it's intimate approach to certain battles...Going into the minds of it's pilots, being unforgivable in it's theme of death associated with the horror that is war, being unglorifying in that theme (which is why I suspect you viewed it more like a game)...I've said it once if I've said it a thousand times, but Zeta tells you clearly that in this battle of mecha on the war-field, "If you f_ck up you die..." Period, end of sentence...It's the only G-series that looks at war in those purist of terms (Victory Gundam while being as if not more brutal is different from Zeta because it DID glorify death)...There is no margin for error, no Malchio the wizards saving you from a blown up STRIKE...Simply the coldness of space, sprinkled with moments to appreciate and people to love if by the grace of God you were able to live one more day...

I never said the battles in seed were good, but they just aren't in zeta either. You're right it is unglorifying. It's easy to kill characters, but it's another to make it actually interesting. Sheesh at least Ryu actually had some sort of funeral in MSG, and in ZZ after the colony drop they took the time to mourn those who were killed. Same with victory they set up grave markers for some of thier allies that died, infact they guy uso met and killed got a grave. Not to mention at the beginning of ZZ the zeeks mourned the loss of thier fallen comrades (much to mashima's frustration.) there is also mention that Haman made a mermorial in space to those who died for the Zeon/Zabi cause. (The giant cross in space).

Someone dies and it's mentioned in passing and people move forth, and it's not addressed. I was half-way expecting a funeral or something for Blex, but we get nada. He was an important politician, he died and it seems like his death is barely even mentioned.

[PowerBarEX]

I never said the battles in seed were good, but they just aren't in zeta either. You're right it is unglorifying. It's easy to kill characters, but it's another to make it actually interesting. Sheesh at least Ryu actually had some sort of funeral in MSG, and in ZZ after the colony drop they took the time to mourn those who were killed...Someone dies and it's mentioned in passing and people move forth, and it's not addressed. I was half-way expecting a funeral or something for Blex, but we get nada.

Why does it have to be interesting when a character is killed? Do you think in war that everyone dies an interesting death? You're saying that they don't take the time to mourn for the dead in Zeta and you're totally incorrect. Heck, do you know how much screentime it would take up if we had a funeral for at least every half-significant character that died in Zeta? You don't have to have a funeral just to mourn for the dead. There's plenty of grieving in Zeta that helps forward the plot and flesh out the characters. Camille shows it everytime someone dies while he's in battle...heck he even mourns when people get gassed and he's like a thousand miles away. Jerid's whole MO was to get revenge for all the comrades that Camille killed. It was to the point that it didn't matter if his overall mission was morally wrong.

Yes there's death and people move forth. And I imagine that's how it can be whan you're in the heat of battle. Do you think people just stop fighting and and hold a funeral in the middle of a battle?

And Blex, what exactly does holding a funeral add for his death or for anyone else for that matter? You saw the guy die with his last words. A funeral would just be glorifying his death in a traditional american movie-like manner. I think what was more important was that his death and the meetings meant that the Titans were now firmly in control of the EF and the AEUG had to quickly mobilize to stop whatever the Titan's were thinking about doing next.

In fact, it is only when when Char comes back 3 episodes later from the meeting to address Henken and Bright about the 'rumors' that the crew of the Argama finally learn of Blex's assasination, followed by this dialogue 'but we've no time to grieve for him, we have to carry out this next operation before...', to which Bright says 'I guess that's the harsh realities of war'.

[PowerBarEX]

Sorry i'm answering out of order, i missed your earlier post crusader.

Are you sure that the Zeta crew were civilians? Most if not all joined the AEUG at some point or another. I'll have to go check to verify that for sure.

It wasn't as spotlighted as it was in MSG, but a good amount of the crew were civilians. You had Camille obviously, and then Fa. You find out Torres joined as a civilian in ZZ. You have Katsu who's also a civilian, and Shinta and Kum whom were adopted (I don't know why...you got me on that...) by Char. Reccoa is somewhat of a civilian, being that she was previously a rebel fighter of a group that has been just about completley wiped out. There did seemed to be less interaction with civilians say on a 'in colony', but that was primarily because Camille and them were almost always too late to save them from getting gassed or dropped and most of the time was spent on missions. One scene I do remember was when Jerid, Camille and Katsu were caught together with a bunch of civilians that show their siding with the AEUG and their hatred of the Titans. It ends powerfully with Jerid knocking a civilian kid's lights out. Another was the mayor thinking of trying to negotiate with the Titans as they threaten to gas his colony. I don't know how many of those scenes there are in comparison to MSG and ZZ, but I thought there was just so much information in every episode and scene in Zeta.

Speaking of Reccoa and mourning, how about it when Camille was blaming Char for letting her go out and 'die'? Even when she wasn't really dead, it was apparent how much it affected the rest of the crew.

you have failed to point out anything realistic about zeta. The politics weren't all there. Titans hunting Zeeks, latter trying to ally with them, even though they were suppose to be hunting them. Not to mention the whole premise of the AEUG and how it was started doesn't fit either.

The politics? What about the infighting between the Titans, specifically Scirocco, Yazan, Jamaican and Jamitov? How Scirocco successfully captured Van Braun City through some slyness at Jamaican's expense? And Blex's death was important as it meant the AEUG had no legitimate representative in the EF anymore (at least until Char shows up).

Char's speech to dakar is utter garbage, you would think he would have been arrested for war crimes from the first war. I mean he was one of the biggest aces of the oyw, but nothing happens and i don't see many goverments just letting someone like him walk away scott free.

I thought of that too, but i believe its also well known that Char wasn't really siding with the Zabi's. There were plenty of rumors circulating about Char killing Kycelea Zabi to finish off that generation of Zabi's. I can't remember when they brought that up, but I think it was stated in the series somewhere.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

The politics? What about the infighting between the Titans, specifically Scirocco, Yazan, Jamaican and Jamitov?

I don't think that the infighting was very realistic; but more to the point, I think that it detracted more from Zeta than it contributed to it. I feel the same way, only much stronger, about ZZ. In general, politics aren't handled particularly well in any of the Gundam shows.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

How Scirocco successfully captured Van Braun City through some slyness at Jamaican's expense? And Blex's death was important as it meant the AEUG had no legitimate representative in the EF anymore (at least until Char shows up).

What are either of these points supposed to prove?

I gave my definitions of what would qualify as war anime, but it's not necessarily the only one that's valid. So, this deserves to be commented upon:

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

My definition, while it may be off topic, are simply that it has to portray war in a realistic/believable manner. This is what separates UC Gundam from most of its AU, specifically CE counterparts. Because while UC is based on plausible concepts (legrange points, minovsky particles, designs for space colonies) and the majority of the plot and motivations for each character is fully fleshed out, the CE is basically a super robot anime in a very superficial/shallow Gundam setting.

Why do you think this is a good definition, and why do you think that war is realistically depicted in any of the UC shows?

By the way, leaving aside all comments on the Cosmic Era, and whether the UC plots are fleshed out, minovsky particles aren't even close to being realistic or plausible. They may sound plausible, but they are anything but that.

[PowerBarEX]

You misread my statement. I both pointed out that the things that Amuro_Rei said were different, and agreed with him that the relative realism is relevant.

You're right. After reading it over, I see what you're saying. However I don't know how you can disregard the portrayal of morality and equipment in a war-anime. It's real robot vs super robot. And IMO you can't have a war-anime with a super robot anime.

But why would Haman betray AEUG?

Actually, if you watch closely, Haman doesn't 'betray AEUG', at least not outright. It's the AEUG that betrays Haman. First with Char trying to kill everyone in the meeting between Haman, Scirocco and Jamitov, then with Operation Maelstrom, to take away the colony laser (a threat to AEUG and the moon) from what is now in Haman's control. But heck, even if that didn't happen, Haman had the upper hand, with Axis destroyed, she wouldn't have much use for the AEUG much longer anyway. So see, its not super politics, but politics nonetheless.

I thought that Char's speech was pure drivel, and the Titans' response to it was moronic

Ok, that's another example of pure opinion and no good example.

AEUG is short handed, but why?

Because they didn't have enough people to handle the weaponry. That much is evident when they take Fa and Katz out of the brig and almost force Torres to sortie one of the mobile suits.

my question is how many Titans are left outside of the final battle

I thought maybe you had a point on this one, even though I agree scope is a weakness if you're going to want people to blurt out numbers. But then I thought, who cares? It's kind of like asking...how many forces are left outside of the battle between Patton and Rommell? Or what the hell took so long for reinforcements to arrive in Saving Private Ryan? You didn't need to know to appreciate the story. And while I like to 'assume' as you say that the majority was gathered to defend against the three way battle between the Titan's and Axis, all you need to know is in the end the Titan's and AEUG are nearly destroyed while Axis clearly has the upper hand going into ZZ. Btw, that Camille was an idiot thing was just an example. Katz was the real idiot =D

Camille said that kind of thing all the time, mostly in combat. wingdarkness seemed to remember it.

Actually, Camille almost never says that. In fact, its totally out of his character as well as Judau's. He was never into the fighting just because a war was a war. He fought because he couldn't stand the pain and suffering and thought the war and the aspects of it came from adults and their stupid 'adult ideas'. That was one of the themes of Zeta and ZZ. Wingdarkness misread your quote as a question instead of a statement. That would sound much more like Camille, but he doesn't say that much in the series either.

My original requirements were that a war anime had to either show either the scope of the war or it had to generate the immediacy of it. So far, you haven't established any of your claims in either regard.

Don't forget about 'a good war story' which again you can twist and turn the definition in whatever way you want. I did make my claims, I provided examples. Simply put, they're just not good enough for you. Hence the 'impossibly greater' standards. Like I said, detailed military history in an ENTERTAINING and SUCCESSFUL 50-episode anime seems near impossible and has not been done yet IMO. And if your Galactic Heroes doesn't even cut it in that respect, then what does?

[PowerBarEX]

I don't think that the infighting was very realistic; but more to the point, I think that it detracted more from Zeta than it contributed to it.

How so? I can't disagree more. The infighting was absolutely central to the plot. Had the Titans worked together, things would have turned out diffrently. Just as if Ramba Ral had those new mobile suits and reinforcements (he also didn't get it because of infighting), he could've taken down White Base.

What are either of these points supposed to prove?

The example of politics and its importance in Zeta. Crusader said the politics 'weren't all there'.

Why do you think this is a good definition, and why do you think that war is realistically depicted in any of the UC shows?

It's a good definition because it takes the literal definition of 'war-anime' and adds a third dimention (realism). Like you said, it can be an anime, and it can have war in it (conflict by two armed forces), but you need the realism to put it all together. That's why I used CE as an example. With UC setting and creating the standard of the real mecha genre, and CE basically being a remake or retelling (kinda like a Marvel Ultimate line if you will), CE essentially keeps the gundam name and throws away the realism, becoming a super robot anime. That is why so many UC people can't accept CE.

In UC everything is based on plausible and explained concepts. The colony is based on a real scientific concept. Their designations in space are based on real scientific concepts. And if i remember correctly, Minovsky particles are derived from the concepts of a real scientist. Also, the damage is realistic in UC. GUndam and MS are constantly being repaired. People actually sortie with a one-armed gundam. There are one-hit kills, but there are also sawed off appendages. The running out of ammo and energy is consistent. THere is NO superhero, especially in Zeta because unlike Kira or even Amuro, Camille gets tricked and gets his assed saved by others numerous times.

Also, people's emotions/motivations are fully fleshed out and there are relatively few times in Zeta where you have to find yourself asking 'WTF did he do that for?! It's SOOO illogical and COMPLETELY unbelievable!' Every moment in Zeta focuses on someone and their motivations and reasoning, even the fights (I guess hence why some consider it boring). THat's simply not the same for CE, a SUPER ROBOT ANIME that depicts WAR, but is unrealistic. I'm not going to go into all the examples of CE...I believe its already been well documented.

So in a very big nutshell, that's why I believe that war is realistically depicted. I could go on, but that's too much posting in one night...

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

You're right. After reading it over, I see what you're saying. However I don't know how you can disregard the portrayal of morality and equipment in a war-anime. It's real robot vs super robot. And IMO you can't have a war-anime with a super robot anime.

I normally disregard morality and equipment because they don't affect a show's sense of scale or its immediacy. Besides, I find that the vast majority of anime military philosophy and morality are either awful or extremely poorly presented. Likewise, I think that there's no difference in the realism between UC mobiles suits (and other equipment) and any of the other Gundam shows (except for G Gundam). For the most part, they're all about equally implausible. Also, I'm not too fond of the distinction between "super robot" and "real robot" to begin with. As I said earlier, "As far as I'm concerned, such categorization can be misleading, especially since the boundary between the two is quite often unclear." Instead of categorizing them, I tend to prefer just evaluating how realistic each mobile suit is.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Actually, if you watch closely, Haman doesn't 'betray AEUG', at least not outright.

I'm talking about the episode right after the Gate of Zedan is destroyed. One episode, Haman is the AEUG's savior, and the next, she's talking up alliance with the Titans.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

So see, its not super politics, but politics nonetheless.

I wasn't disputing that it wasn't politics; instead, I was pointing out that it's horrible direction and writing (In fact, I think that it's the worst example of writing in all of Gundam).

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Ok, that's another example of pure opinion and no good example.

It was just meant to be a statement of my opinion, not an argument. What's your problem with it?

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Because they didn't have enough people to handle the weaponry. That much is evident when they take Fa and Katz out of the brig and almost force Torres to sortie one of the mobile suits.

Here's the rest of my question: "Is it because they have more ships than they have personnel for, or because they have a small force but insufficient volunteers, or because they're spread thin amongst all the Sides?" The point is that this rather important part of the story is poorly explained.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

I thought maybe you had a point on this one, even though I agree scope is a weakness if you're going to want people to blurt out numbers. But then I thought, who cares? It's kind of like asking...how many forces are left outside of the battle between Patton and Rommell?

If the story involves top-level commanders, a show had better deliver this kind of information. Without it, there's no way of telling what's actually going on.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Or what the hell took so long for reinforcements to arrive in Saving Private Ryan?

The answer to this question is much less important since we don't really care about the tactical situation beyond the fact that that part of the battle was over.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

You didn't need to know to appreciate the story. And while I like to 'assume' as you say that the majority was gathered to defend against the three way battle between the Titan's and Axis, all you need to know is in the end the Titan's and AEUG are nearly destroyed while Axis clearly has the upper hand going into ZZ.

Actually, we don't know for a fact that the Titans and AEUG were nearly destroyed at all. I've heard contradictory stories saying that Axis absorbed the rest of the Titans to AEUG being the only force to struggle against Axis, and so on. The shows themselves aren't very forthcoming on this issue because of this lack of attention to detail.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Actually, Camille almost never says that. In fact, its totally out of his character as well as Judau's. He was never into the fighting just because a war was a war.

I'll have to get back to you on this one since my recollection of that exact phrase might be off. I'm just paraphrasing what Camille said, but I can't remember the exact wording.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Don't forget about 'a good war story' which again you can twist and turn the definition in whatever way you want. I did make my claims, I provided examples. Simply put, they're just not good enough for you. Hence the 'impossibly greater' standards. Like I said, detailed military history in an ENTERTAINING and SUCCESSFUL 50-episode anime seems near impossible and has not been done yet IMO. And if your Galactic Heroes doesn't even cut it in that respect, then what does?

What are you talking about? As I've pointed out (several times), Mobile Suit Gundam itself qualifies, so how is it impossible? It doesn't have to be any sort of detailed military history, it just needs to satisfy one of the two criteria I set.

I'm not sure what Legend of Galactic Heroes has to do with this. I've certainly never claimed that it was super-realistic or anything like that. Moreover, I've also stated that a show doesn't have strictly have to be realistic to qualify either in scope or in immediacy.

Again, please point out where I've been shifting my definitions. So far I've found that your examples have been weak, hence I refuted them. If you can either counter my refutations or provide better examples, feel free to do so.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

How so? I can't disagree more. The infighting was absolutely central to the plot. Had the Titans worked together, things would have turned out diffrently.

Exactly; the result would have been that AEUG would have had to rely on their skills to win rather their enemies' incompetence.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

The example of politics and its importance in Zeta. Crusader said the politics 'weren't all there'.

I believe that Crusader meant that the portrayal of politics was poor in Zeta. Even if it wasn't his meaning, this would be the overriding concern.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

It's a good definition because it takes the literal definition of 'war-anime' and adds a third dimention (realism). Like you said, it can be an anime, and it can have war in it (conflict by two armed forces), but you need the realism to put it all together.

Very well. But how would you define the first two elements? The anime part is obvious, but how about the war part? Does the story have to deal with a war directly, do the characters have to fight, does the war have to be big, does the war have to be violent, and what if there's only one armed force? Also, how do you determine if a show depicts war realistically?

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

That's why I used CE as an example. With UC setting and creating the standard of the real mecha genre, and CE basically being a remake or retelling (kinda like a Marvel Ultimate line if you will), CE essentially keeps the gundam name and throws away the realism, becoming a super robot anime. That is why so many UC people can't accept CE.

This is a very bad idea in debates. All that you can suceed in establishing is that UC show are more realistic in comparison to Cosmic Era ones. However, unless you can also show that Cosmic Era shows are fairly realistic as well, this will do absolutely nothing in proving that the UC shows are realistic on an absolute sense.


I'll break these down:

"In UC everything is based on plausible and explained concepts." - Ahem: Newtypes. Ghosts. Forcefields.Minovsky Physics. Crappy militaries. Etc.
"The colony is based on a real scientific concept." - Agreed. This is excellent.
"Their designations in space are based on real scientific concepts." - If you're talking about the lagrange points, you're absolutely correct.
"And if i remember correctly, Minovsky particles are derived from the concepts of a real scientist." - Not even close.
"Also, the damage is realistic in UC. GUndam and MS are constantly being repaired. People actually sortie with a one-armed gundam." - I'm not sure why you would think that this makes a show more realistic.
"There are one-hit kills, but there are also sawed off appendages." - I'm not sure why you would think that this makes a show more realistic.
"The running out of ammo and energy is consistent." - In what way?
"THere is NO superhero, especially in Zeta because unlike Kira or even Amuro, Camille gets tricked and gets his assed saved by others numerous times." - Are you trying to argue for just Zeta, or for UC in general?

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Also, people's emotions/motivations are fully fleshed out and there are relatively few times in Zeta where you have to find yourself asking 'WTF did he do that for?! It's SOOO illogical and COMPLETELY unbelievable!'

Actually, I did that a lot, especially at the ends of Zeta and ZZ. The last couple of episodes at the end of Zeta, in particular, were full of concentrated stupidity.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

So in a very big nutshell, that's why I believe that war is realistically depicted.

Given what you've posted, there's quite a few anime that seem to fit the criteria you use for UC Gundam fairly well; would a show like Madlax fit? There's a war in this show, and it uses real world weapons with just one or two major fantasy elements.

How about something like My-Otome? Everything is powered by super-technology, and it does concern itself with war.

Or Gunparade March? Alternate universe - Aliens have invaded Earth, overrunning most of the planet. Much of the remaining defense relies on Japanese schoolkids. Arguably, their mecha are more realistic than the Gundam ones.

Or Now and Then, Here and There? Different universe. Children are drafted into fighting a war for a deranged maniac. The weapons are standard small arms.

Or something as off-the-wall as Lime-iro Senkitan? Alternate Russo-Japanese War, with some fairly realistic weapons, and a bunch of mecha.

Of all of these, only Now and Then, Here and There truly qualifies under my criteria, with Gunparade March on the bubble. In particular, Lime-iro Senkitan is rejected with extreme prejudice.

[avmoghe]

Originally Posted by Amuro_Rei

Have you even failed to consider how realistic war really is? I think you have even failed to grasp the true meaning of war.

I know perfectly well what a war is - and UC Gundam (MSG, Zeta, Victory, ZZ, CCA) is far, far from it. Idiotic teens running around on ships and showing off their psychic powers does not make a war show regardless of what you might think.

The U.C. Gundam series are the most realistic ones when it comes to MS specs, war and morality. Tomino really put a lot of effort in keeping the focus of the show into the characters' thoughts and principles which made the show and intense war drama. Tomino showed that war really has no sides and that each side would end up in the worst way possible.

Is this supposed to be funny? Have you even watched any Gundam series from the Universal Century? The freaking Gundams absorb power from ghosts!!! They channel psychic powers to move funnels. What the hell is one supposed to make of the end of CCA? Turning people into babies by chanting? Soldiers switching alliances for no bloody reason (the retarded soldiers at the end of CCA who suddenly try to push axis back after laying down their lives to make it crash, Reccoa from Zeta, ... )

We have crossed the boundaries of science-fiction (even bad SF), and moved into fantasy territory - the technology is doing random things it was never designed to do. Did those Anaheim designers "design" the Nu Gundam to do what it did? (Hell, I don't even know what to call it other than a giant green aura across the earth to push away an asteroid) Tomino in all his infinite brilliance seems to believe that putting newtype in a Gundam is a license to pull any random crap from his ass. While it may be entertaining and a statment about "the potential of humanity" (whatever that may mean), it certainly doesn't fit any definition of the term "realistic".

Let me put this as concisely as possible: UC Gundam is as realistic as Dragonball Z (and I suspect just about every other Gundam series is the same way).

War is not just about big guns, cool tricks, and skillful men and women; it's all about how people strive in just staying alive. U.C. Gundam series showed a lot of this and this is all true. Many people try to stay away from the conflict, do stupid things just for something, and in fact support even the most drastic of all measures.
And when it comes to viewing civilian views about the wars, U.C. is the closest thing you get in making it real.

No - we got a crappy soap opera with shiny Gundams and idiotic teens and adults spouting nonsensical philosophical bullshit toward each other. If you want to see hate between people played out in a Gundam series - Gundam Seed does that the best. I have no doubt that we will see hate against genetically enhanced humans at some point in the future. Either way, Gundam Seed does not manage to be a "war anime" either - its just another soap opera (one I happen to like better though).

As I've said before, there is not a single Gundam series that I would call a "war drama" - although some OVA's come close. In general, Gundam is a toy commercial combined with a soap opera - there is no way around that.

[PowerBarEX]

Also, I'm not too fond of the distinction between "super robot" and "real robot" to begin with.

So you're saying something like Voltron is in the same class as Gundam?

I'm talking about the episode right after the Gate of Zedan is destroyed. One episode, Haman is the AEUG's savior, and the next, she's talking up alliance with the Titans.

All this talk about bad writing and you've seemed to miss the point of that arc. Both sides are trying to win Haman's favor. She's in control. If you rewatch the conversation, she's not talking about alliance, she's saying the Titans should submit to her because she's got the upper hand. She's basically just there to listen to offers.

This is a very bad idea in debates. All that you can suceed in establishing is that UC show are more realistic in comparison to Cosmic Era ones. However, unless you can also show that Cosmic Era shows are fairly realistic as well, this will do absolutely nothing in proving that the UC shows are realistic on an absolute sense.

I'm highlighting the realism that UC has brought to the genre by comparing it to its Super Robot counterpart. This realistic on an absolute sense is another one of your terms. I can only expect that you mean some strict military traditions and what not. Again, I simply don't believe this standard of realism is necessary for it to fit my definition of 'war-anime'. Of course if there were something out there like that, it would almost definitely be considered one. In the end, you're downplaying the significance of the realism that no other anime has provided at the time besides Macross. There's a reason for Gundam's reverence from anime fans and its not just because of model kits.

"Ahem: Newtypes. Ghosts. Forcefields.Minovsky Physics. Crappy militaries. Etc."

Newtypes is based on human evolution in space through extra sensory perception. Admittedly, the fireworks at the end of each series are probably to satisfy its commercial audience, but everything up to then is at least explained to the point where it is believable. You're right about Minovsky Physics. I mixed Minovsky up with another scientist of similar name. Crappy militaries? How is that unrealistic? Look at the US military in the Vietnam War Era.

I'm not sure why you would think that this makes a show more realistic.

I'm just stating that unlike the super robot genre, the MS in the UC break down, require maintenance etc. They're not perfect machines that remain spotless after battle.

Are you trying to argue for just Zeta, or for UC in general?

Both, however, I felt Zeta was the most realistic. Even more so than your MSG.

Given what you've posted, there's quite a few anime that seem to fit the criteria you use for UC Gundam fairly well; would a show like Madlax fit?

I wouldn't know, I haven't watched any of the series that you mentioned. I can say that out of the anime I HAVE watched, Gundam, Macross and maybe even Exosquad would fit my description. FMP incorporated alot of slapstick and elements so that you just couldn't take the anime seriously enough. Still a great anime though.

No - we got a crappy soap opera with shiny Gundams and idiotic teens and adults spouting nonsensical philosophical bullshit toward each other.

You must be thinking of Wing, cuz the philosophical BS is kept to a minimum in the UC. You repeatedly state that its a bunch of teens running around with these newtype powers. As if idiotic teens were never thrown into war, and as if the newtype fireworks at the end of each series is what everyone should remember Gundam by first and foremost. What about the BS that they spew in Seed? And come on..the hatred? That emo crap was so shallow in Seed and Destiny and was no different from the level of emo that Mai Hime and Bleach put out.

And hatred? What was that one moment that really turned me off of Destiny...Shinn kills Luna's sister and Luna responds by falling in love with him?! So people can hate others because they're genetically engineered, but I just murdered someone's sister and now she's all over me. I mean WTF is that?!!!

Btw, they fully explained the reason why Reccoa switched sides. The woman didn't care about either side of the war, she just felt she wasn't appreciated or living the way she wanted and thought switching sides and working under Scirocco would make her happier. It's her disinterest in the actual motivations of each side and the selfish reasons of her own that was the key to her character. I'm not gonna comment on CCA cuz I watched that long long ago...

So avmoghe, is there such a thing as a war-anime to you then?

[Amuro_Rei]

Originally Posted by avmoghe

No - we got a crappy soap opera with shiny Gundams and idiotic teens and adults spouting nonsensical philosophical bullshit toward each other. If you want to see hate between people played out in a Gundam series - Gundam Seed does that the best. I have no doubt that we will see hate against genetically enhanced humans at some point in the future. Either way, Gundam Seed does not manage to be a "war anime" either - its just another soap opera (one I happen to like better though).

As I've said before, there is not a single Gundam series that I would call a "war drama" - although some OVA's come close. In general, Gundam is a toy commercial combined with a soap opera - there is no way around that.

Isn't this the same thing you would consider in Seed and Gundam Wing at the same time?? Some of them were throwing all those philosophical points of view in the series. Rau really had his point of view about humans and about wars. Kira countered it with his own views about it.

Originally Posted by avmoghe

Is this supposed to be funny? Have you even watched any Gundam series from the Universal Century? The freaking Gundams absorb power from ghosts!!! They channel psychic powers to move funnels. What the hell is one supposed to make of the end of CCA? Turning people into babies by chanting? Soldiers switching alliances for no bloody reason (the retarded soldiers at the end of CCA who suddenly try to push axis back after laying down their lives to make it crash, Reccoa from Zeta, ... )

I have watched them and they are more close to reality than you think.

And oh yeah, like if we didn't see the same thing in Seed as well, you surely didn't understand what was going on in both series.

They don't absorb the power from ghosts, the power came from the pilot itself because of the pilot's will to move. It is just like a man running and runs out of energy to run, but because of his will to do so his body decides to give it a few more than it needs.
Just like in ZZ where in the ZZ ran out of power, but because of Judau it was able to move once again. It came from Judau's mind to actually move the Gundam once more, and after that short burst of energy, the Gundam simply fell down.
And the ghosts that you see are emulated by the Gundam's computer from the pilot's mind. It was able to use the same data from the pilot who was giving these brainwaves to the computer thus emulating unknown phenomena to the Mobile Suit. The only explanation that I can give that the The O couldn't move was the fact that it also had a bio-sensor and since it's a computer, it might have detected the brainpower from the pilot and thus was able to use it, but instead corrupted its systems.

The principle of computers reading human brainwaves is already old. It is widely used in medical purposes, but here they just went a step further. They used a computer to analyze human brainwave activity, thus reading and translating it into machine language and making commands in order to do functions. That's the explanation behind the Funnels being moved by human brainwaves.

AT CCA's ending, everyone was controlled by the power of the psycoframe, having 3 psycoframes actually amplified Amuro's mind by threefold thus making his mind more powerful than ever and creating a force enough to make the Gundam push Axis away from earth. And the soldiers moved on their own on that time just to push Axis away.

The Angel Halo is a powerful machine in V Gundam that was capable to use a lot of Newtypes to be used as its power source. But it also needed a powerful newtype at the center of it just for it to operate. The only explanation that I have for that one would be because of so many minds plus, a stronger newtype at the center, I think it was able to perform a wide psychic wave that was able to penetrate a person's mind and be able to control them. And I think that Angel Halo had a lot of Psycoframe like devices there that I think would have been enough to do its functions.

[avmoghe]

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

You must be thinking of Wing, cuz the philosophical BS is kept to a minimum in the UC. You repeatedly state that its a bunch of teens running around with these newtype powers. As if idiotic teens were never thrown into war, and as if the newtype fireworks at the end of each series is what everyone should remember Gundam by first and foremost. What about the BS that they spew in Seed? And come on..the hatred? That emo crap was so shallow in Seed and Destiny and was no different from the level of emo that Mai Hime and Bleach put out.

So avmoghe, is there such a thing as a war-anime to you then?

Kept to a minimum? In UC Gundam? Remember Amuro's and Char's conversation at the end of CCA? They are yelling what can only be described as nonsensical psycho babble. You want me to go through series to find more crappy psycho babble?

What exactly are you referring to with "the bs they spew in Seed"? I was talking about nonsensical philosophical-babble in UC Gundam - not seed. I was pointing out crap from UC that makes it fail miserably as a war anime - any psycho babble from Seed is irrelevant.

The hatred between populations was far, far better portrayed in Seed than any hatred in UC Gundam. We are *already* at a point where we can genetically modify humans, Seed just showed a picture of what is guaranteed to happen. Incidentally, this isn't restricted to Seed - it has been previously explored in movies such as Gattaca. Contrast this with the UC - we never saw the general populace shooting up people because they were "newtypes". The hate among the citizens was far more clearly shown in Seed - as someone else has already mentioned. You're free to call it "emo crap" if you wish - but it does not change what it was.

I've already mentioned that none of the Gundam series count as war anime. If you read my earlier post you'll see that Legend of the Galactic heroes is the closest thing to a war anime that I know of (I'm tempted to blame the absurdities on the bad translation from the novels to the anime). Portions of Banner of the Stars could be up for discussion as well. Apparently the other poster has better examples of bona-fide war anime's (Zipang, and starship operators)- I haven't watched those yet.

[avmoghe]

Originally Posted by Amuro_Rei

Isn't this the same thing you would consider in Seed and Gundam Wing at the same time?? Some of them were throwing all those philosophical points of view in the series. Rau really had his point of view about humans and about wars. Kira countered it with his own views about it.

Of course. What's your point here? The fact that Seed and Wing have it to magically excuses Zeta for having it? Is that what you're saying?

I have watched them and they are more close to reality than you think.

I doubt it...

They don't absorb the power from ghosts, the power came from the pilot itself because of the pilot's will to move. It is just like a man running and runs out of energy to run, but because of his will to do so his body decides to give it a few more than it needs.

That's just semantics - Kamille lets the ghosts "use" his body (whatever the hell that means), and the Zeta starts glowing because the ghosts are using his body. No - this is not even remotely close to reality. This has nothing to do with Kamille's "will" - it has to do with dead people's ghosts "using his body".

Just like in ZZ where in the ZZ ran out of power, but because of Judau it was able to move once again. It came from Judau's mind to actually move the Gundam once more, and after that short burst of energy, the Gundam simply fell down.
And the ghosts that you see are emulated by the Gundam's computer from the pilot's mind. It was able to use the same data from the pilot who was giving these brainwaves to the computer thus emulating unknown phenomena to the Mobile Suit. The only explanation that I can give that the The O couldn't move was the fact that it also had a bio-sensor and since it's a computer, it might have detected the brainpower from the pilot and thus was able to use it, but instead corrupted its systems.

That just completely went over my head - Now we have Gundam's "emulating" ghosts? Where are you pulling this from?

AT CCA's ending, everyone was controlled by the power of the psycoframe, having 3 psycoframes actually amplified Amuro's mind by threefold thus making his mind more powerful than ever and creating a force enough to make the Gundam push Axis away from earth. And the soldiers moved on their own on that time just to push Axis away.

Right.... and this is precisely bull. Now brainwaves are being amplified and magically push away asteroids from Earth, and have the ability to control enemy soldiers!! Are you staying with a straight face that this is "close to reality"?

The Angel Halo is a powerful machine in V Gundam that was capable to use a lot of Newtypes to be used as its power source. But it also needed a powerful newtype at the center of it just for it to operate. The only explanation that I have for that one would be because of so many minds plus, a stronger newtype at the center, I think it was able to perform a wide psychic wave that was able to penetrate a person's mind and be able to control them. And I think that Angel Halo had a lot of Psycoframe like devices there that I think would have been enough to do its functions.

Right - I know what the Halo is. And it still doesn't bring the device any closer to reality. Brainwaves of kids being amplified to create psychic waves to control people is not realistic in any sense of the word.

The point here is that newtypes are essentially used to show essentially random happenings on the screen - and this is neither realistic nor fit for a "war anime". Being an engineer myself, I don't even want to begin to list the insurmountable difficulties involved with designing these psychoframes capable of manipulating people, or Gundams which emulate ghosts......

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

So you're saying something like Voltron is in the same class as Gundam?

Nope. I'm saying that it's a waste of time to talk about "super robot" and "real robot" classes to begin with.

You may be better off trying to define what realism is, rather than by arguing what it isn't.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

All this talk about bad writing and you've seemed to miss the point of that arc. Both sides are trying to win Haman's favor. She's in control. If you rewatch the conversation, she's not talking about alliance, she's saying the Titans should submit to her because she's got the upper hand. She's basically just there to listen to offers.

Nonsense. If she had the upper hand, then it makes even less sense for her to talk to the Titans. She already had AEUG eating out of her hand. Perhaps if Haman's decision making were actually in the show it would make sense, but it wasn't.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

I'm highlighting the realism that UC has brought to the genre by comparing it to its Super Robot counterpart. This realistic on an absolute sense is another one of your terms.

It may be, but it's really just a comparison between a mecha and a real vehicle. Again, your comparison doesn't do any convincing unless the idea that "real robots" are realistic is already accepted.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

In the end, you're downplaying the significance of the realism that no other anime has provided at the time besides Macross.

So Gundam is historical significant. Why should that mean that I have to accord it any special treatment? Shouldn't how realistic it is be solely dependent on the show itself?

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Newtypes is based on human evolution in space through extra sensory perception.

The idea of humans "evolving" differently in space is laughable to begin with. That's not the way evolution works at all. Moreover, ESP isn't even close to being realistic.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Crappy militaries? How is that unrealistic? Look at the US military in the Vietnam War Era.

The last I heard, the US military didn't have a policy of using the brig as a place where soldiers could get more rest.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

I'm just stating that unlike the super robot genre, the MS in the UC break down, require maintenance etc. They're not perfect machines that remain spotless after battle.

Machines in the vast majority of mecha shows require maintenance - how is UC special in this regard?

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Both, however, I felt Zeta was the most realistic. Even more so than your MSG.

But in writing "THere is NO superhero, especially in Zeta because unlike Kira or even Amuro, Camille gets tricked and gets his assed saved by others numerous times.", you're insinuating that some UC Gundam shows have superheros. Since superheroes are unrealistic, wouldn't this apply to the show as well?

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

I wouldn't know, I haven't watched any of the series that you mentioned. I can say that out of the anime I HAVE watched, Gundam, Macross and maybe even Exosquad would fit my description. FMP incorporated alot of slapstick and elements so that you just couldn't take the anime seriously enough. Still a great anime though.

I can assure you that they all meet the first two criteria handily, and none of them (with the exception of Lime-iro Senkitan) are much more unrealistic than some of the stuff we see in UC Gundam. Would that mean that they would all be considered war anime based on your definition?

By the way, why would you want to disqualify Full Metal Panic? After all, most of the technologies in that show are far more realistic than the ones in UC Gundam shows.

[Crusader]

I may have missed something else i was going to respond too.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Speaking of Reccoa and mourning, how about it when Camille was blaming Char for letting her go out and 'die'? Even when she wasn't really dead, it was apparent how much it affected the rest of the crew.

yeah, but it seems like camillie is the only character that really mourns anyone or gives a crap, perhaps emma mourned a couple of times. Jerid's revenge was the one thing that did shine. I enjoyed the fact that he reviled in Calling camillie a murderor, but as i said the deaths didn't seem all that important. Up until the end of the series, which seemed to go more into peoples thoughts and feelings. Sure deaths occur and people move forward, but Zeta lacked a lot of the caring factor. It almost came across as if the cast didn't care about anyone who died. This lack of caring made some of the characters carbon.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

The politics? What about the infighting between the Titans, specifically Scirocco, Yazan, Jamaican and Jamitov? How Scirocco successfully captured Van Braun City through some slyness at Jamaican's expense? And Blex's death was important as it meant the AEUG had no legitimate representative in the EF anymore (at least until Char shows up).

Much of this infighting is glossed over. I don't even understand how Scirocco gained any influence especially with Bask breathing down his back. Not to mention most of the Titans and Feddies hated him. Bask disappears, and reappers with Scirocco somehow on a postions almost equal to him. I didn't find anything sly about scirocco's plan for van braun. If there was any real fighitng i'd be more inclined to believe jamaican would abandon him, but thats another thing seeing how the Titans were all that bright. Jamitov doesn't even allow bask to do anything against scirocco, so tier really isn't any fighitng thier. What fighting did occur came after Jamitov's demise, and even then the Titans didn't seem to be doing much except losing battles.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

I thought of that too, but i believe its also well known that Char wasn't really siding with the Zabi's. There were plenty of rumors circulating about Char killing Kycelea Zabi to finish off that generation of Zabi's. I can't remember when they brought that up, but I think it was stated in the series somewhere.

Rumors... i don't recall anything of the sort being mentioned. The fact still remains the federation listened to him, despite the fact that he was thier enemy. rumors are just that. Any politician with a brain wouldn't listen to an established enemy, even if they had disappeared for a time. So again it doesn't seem realistic.

On the subject of Haman's Betrayal, there is no real reason for it to make sense. She was promised side 3 for her help (which she got eventually). If she stayed with Aeug till the titans were crushed she could have still been in a powerful position. Her bargaining with the Titans made no sense either, and seemed only there so they could find an effective way to kill jamitov and glorify scirocco. (who wasn't that compelling) The Titans had nothing to offer her, and the Aeug's offer was much more valuable in terms of zeon symbolism. Especially how she was spouting about restoring the Zabi family crap. so there's some more REAL politics.

[Crusader]

Sorry i did miss something!

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Yes there's death and people move forth. And I imagine that's how it can be whan you're in the heat of battle. Do you think people just stop fighting and and hold a funeral in the middle of a battle?

I never said stop fighting to mourn. There were plenty of times when they weren't actually fighting.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

And Blex, what exactly does holding a funeral add for his death or for anyone else for that matter? You saw the guy die with his last words. A funeral would just be glorifying his death in a traditional american movie-like manner. I think what was more important was that his death and the meetings meant that the Titans were now firmly in control of the EF and the AEUG had to quickly mobilize to stop whatever the Titan's were thinking about doing next.

The fact that he was an important politician is one thing. I mean when jfk was killed, America ceased a lot of activity to bring to light that our nations leader was dead. It's absurd to believe that it would be glossed over as just another death.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

In fact, it is only when when Char comes back 3 episodes later from the meeting to address Henken and Bright about the 'rumors' that the crew of the Argama finally learn of Blex's assasination, followed by this dialogue 'but we've no time to grieve for him, we have to carry out this next operation before...', to which Bright says 'I guess that's the harsh realities of war'.

Just cuase he said it doesn't make the war an realistic. As i mentioned before i can't think of any important political figure that died, and was glossed over as it was in Zeta. Not to mention Blex was in a very important postion at the time of his demise. The only true rep for the Aeug...Hmm seems improtant to me.
I still find it hard to belive that it was kept such a secret when the Titans knew about it. (asided from the fact they were responsible.)

[Blaat]

About Haman's betrayal it was a well established fact that she wanted AEUG and Titans to destroy each other so that Neo Zeon would have a much easier time taking over the earth sphere. Siding with one faction too long would mean that Neo Zeon would be facing a much stronger opponent later on.

About the Titans forces at the end of the show. Scirrocco did establish after the Titan spacefleet was destroyed by the giant beam cannon (well that's realistic ;p ) that this isn't enough to defeat AEUG. From that sentence (admittingly its vague) one would then assume that the Titans forces are considerably weaker in numbers then the AEUG forces. Sadly enough Zeta Gundam lacks a large amount of small details (whatever happened to the 2nd Mk II unit?) which ruins the show for some.

About the original thread topic, what Gundam show is considered a war anime. I can't answer that until I know why the CE Gundams are excluded in the comparison. To avoid a UC vs CE discussion? If that's so then the creator of the thread has failed with that.

Originally Posted by Crusader

Char's speech to dakar is utter garbage, you would think he would have been arrested for war crimes from the first war. I mean he was one of the biggest aces of the oyw, but nothing happens and i don't see many goverments just letting someone like him walk away scott free.

Curious to know; what war crimes are you thinking about?