Macross Delta - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Ura-dora

Yes. It has actually been shown. Not in a dramatic or drastic way, however it has been done on numerous occasions. Keep in mind that regardless of Freyja's age, she is physically stronger than Kaname, Makina, Hayate, and even Mirage and Reina. Most things in Delta, but not all, have been done in subtile ways to make you question certain things. The episode that comes immediately to my mind is episode 17, where after their performance, Freyja is extremely exhausted. They made sure to focus on Freyja, in comparison to the other girls. Especially Makina, who performed the most during that episode. Although its up for interpretation on whether or not you want to acknowledge it, however i'm positive that's what they were going for.

Spoiler:

Um, this is not uncommon for idols to breathe for a second after performing especially if the spotlight is not on them?

I'll leave this conversation for now because it'll be answered by later episodes. Right now it's only a speculation.

Originally Posted by Ura-dora

As I stated to Kazu-kun, the girls try to reach out to Mikumo, however she dismisses them. She puts up a front because she doesn't want to worry them, or compromise the mission.

She's dismissing all of them right now; however, who is to say all the girls will not pounce on her in a later episode? I mean, Delta is vividly pouring "all these girls are a team" in our faces every episode where one or two of their members are facing hardships: Mikumo is in isolation on a Med ship, Makina and Reina plan to infiltrate and Kaname comes on board; Freyja is not singing like she should, Mikumo slaps her and all of the girls come on board. It's not a "one girl" parade here. If Mikumo falls into a situation where her emotions override her mission, all of the girls will stand up.

I believe Thess said this more than once about their teamwork.

[Ura-dora]

Spoiler:

[QUOTE=ippus;5933962]Breathe.
I keep telling myself I won't do this but, seriously what the hell.

>>Oh- Mirage has no interactions with anyone but Hayate!
When she does get interactions: Oh they're so UNNATURAL!

>>Mirage always disappears from the battle mysteriously! Why is she even a main? She's such a side character!!!
When she is a big deal in a battle scene: Oh why did everyone disappear? WHY ISN'T EVERYONE INVOLVED IN THIS SCENE!?!?!?!?!??!

>>Mirage has NO development with Hayate as a romantic interest! What an ass pull!
When Mirage has romantic development: OH MY GOD. WHY ARE YOU LIKE SO OBSESSED WITH HAYATE. Just stop it! Why can't you just be FRIENDS and be friends with EVERYONE STOP RUINING MY SHIP

>>Mirage is always around to just fix other people's problems! She has zero developments of her own!
When Mirage has developments of her own: God she's so mopey and she's not DEFEATING EVERYTHING IN THE LINE OF SIGHT and going Ultra powermode! IGNORE IGNORE IGNORE.

>>Mirage is SO WEAK
When Mirage saves Hayate from a massive explosion, When Mirage blocks a laser beam shot by an enemy ON WIND MODE then DODGES HAYATE'S BULLETS ON WIND MODE with her own WIND MODE: OMG SHE HUGS HIM IN THE BATTLEFIELD. SHE SAID SHE WOULD SHOOT HIM DOWN BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH something something writers forcing romance down your throat



I'm sorry but Uhg.

I've noticed this too. The problem is so simple, and it's kind of sad. The real issue is the fact that Mirage is apart of the love triangle. No matte what, any scene Mirage is in, it will be analyzed in a love triangle aspect. Not everyone has the skill to differentiate.

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

She's dismissing all of them right now; however, who is to say all the girls will not pounce on her in a later episode? I mean, Delta is vividly pouring "all these girls are a team" in our faces every episode where one or two of their members are facing hardships: Mikumo is in isolation on a Med ship, Makina and Reina plan to infiltrate and Kaname comes on board; Freyja is not singing like she should, Mikumo slaps her and all of the girls come on board. It's not a "one girl" parade here. If Mikumo falls into a situation where her emotions override her mission, all of the girls will stand up.

I believe Thess said this more than once about their teamwork.

I'm confused. I don't know what you're arguing against. I never said it was a "one girl" parade. I know the issue will be resolved with all the girls coming together. The person who will play the biggest role in this is Freyja. Mikumo during episode 22 is not her usual self. She isn't as happy as she is making out herself to be. Mikumo has lost her passion for singing, and is now singing as a tool.

It's hard for me to believe that you genuinely think somebody (especially Mikumo's personality), would be happy and complacent, knowing their passion was programmed. Right now while I believe its true, it's only a speculation. So we will have to wait for answers in the upcoming episodes.

[Triple_R]

Ura-dora's speculations are interesting. I don't particularly like them (in the sense I probably wouldn't want the Freyja side of them to happen), but they are interesting. I might like them as far as Mikumo is concerned.

There's an idea I want to put forward here - Maybe a lot of Rune stimulation is not good for a Windermerean. Maybe it shortens their lifespan. Maybe a Windermerean's rune, and hence Windermereans themselves, are a bit like candles. If they burn too brightly, then they can burn out more quickly, and then that's it, the Windermerean is dead.

Freyja's rune has had a lot of stimulation throughout this show, and maybe it has shortened her lifespan. I hope not, but the idea makes sense to me.


A possible side-aspect of this is that maybe Windermereans could drastically increase their lifespans by just getting rid of the runes. Granted, that might kill them for all I know, as it might be like a human cutting out his or her heart. But if you can safely cut off a Windermerean's rune(s), maybe that would result in that Windermerean having a more human-life lifespan (but also more human-like abilities/limitations).

[Ura-dora]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Ura-dora's speculations are interesting. I don't particularly like them (in the sense I probably wouldn't want the Freyja side of them to happen), but they are interesting. I might like them as far as Mikumo is concerned.

There's an idea I want to put forward here - Maybe a lot of Rune stimulation is not good for a Windermerean. Maybe it shortens their lifespan. Maybe a Windermerean's rune, and hence Windermereans themselves, are a bit like candles. If they burn too brightly, then they can burn out more quickly, and then that's it, the Windermerean is dead.

Freyja's rune has had a lot of stimulation throughout this show, and maybe it has shortened her lifespan. I hope not, but the idea makes sense to me.


A possible side-aspect of this is that maybe Windermereans could drastically increase their lifespans by just getting rid of the runes. Granted, that might kill them for all I know, as it might be like a human cutting out his or her heart. But if you can safely cut off a Windermerean's rune(s), maybe that would result in that Windermerean having a more human-life lifespan (but also more human-like abilities/limitations).

The idea of a Windermerean's life-span being shortened by their runes was foreshadowed during one of the earlier episodes when Roid stated to Kieth, "we can't afford for Heinz's runes to dry up." This episode pretty much confirms that theory. The more Cassim's rune shined, the more his body began to crystalize.

I doubt any Windermerean would want their runes to be cut off, because that's what makes them who they are. Freyja specifically would have no place in Walkure, as her runes are where her fold waves are produced.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

I'm right: Mirage promises to shoot Hayate down if he goes Var. Once Hayate does go Var, Cassim does go in for the kill regardless of his mental state (his line is "I told you I'd show no mercy"). The Mirage bit, on a battlefield no less, still comes out of nowhere (in this situation, is a triangular moment even necessary?); however, I don't personally care so much about that as the quickness in which the situation is resolved: There is no clarity on if Freyja even recognized he lost control, which is kind of important because she made a huge deal of this for 3-4 episodes so editing is not top notch on this.

Actually it wasn't a promise but a statement each "regular" soldier would do if they risk their teams life. You know responsibility and bla bla bla. This was her soldier side. The interesting point here is that she struggles between her duty as a soldier and her personal emotial feelings. would you kill a friend on the battlefield without hesitation? Btw. going into macross magic. Her emotions for him allowed her to fold. It doesn't really matter if Freyja knew if he went berserk or not. They knew the risk and Freyja was reminded (by the bitch slap) that she is a Walküre and not childish young lady.

Did someone else also notice that Mirage had tears in her eye before she folded?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Ura-dora

It's hard for me to believe that you genuinely think somebody (especially Mikumo's personality), would be happy and complacent, knowing their passion was programmed. Right now while I believe its true, it's only a speculation. So we will have to wait for answers in the upcoming episodes.

Thinking more on it, you're probably right about Mikumo. I think she was trying to joke things off, but I think there is some real sadness and bitterness there.

If Mikumo meets Roid in person, that could be a critical moment for sure.

[dmaxzero]

Originally Posted by ippus

At this point the show has gone through so many Wind mode powers that I think you're just gonna have to lie down and take it.

It feels like when people speak of the wind in Delta...they're all talking about different things. It's weird, and interesting, and I wish there were more episodes to explore this.

Yes. Indeed. I know the show is like this and I am seeing it because I just have to see it end. I do not really care anymore for any of the characters, or who wins who lose, who is the bad, who is in love. I do not even care about the whys and hows of the show, is a mess and that´s it.

But the wind thingy still bothers me.

When it appeared in Wings of Goodbye for the first time it was actually pretty cool and was used in a very grandiose way as the cherry of the cake. But here... it exist because for some reason Macross needed to have mahou shoujo genre. I still have no idea why. (Popular genre? =p)

Delta will most likely be my more disliked Macross show after Seven. I think I even liked Macross II more than this.

Oh well. It is what it is.

[Kazu-kun]

Delta had a lot of potential, but they didn't know how to keep the focus on what's relevant and tried to cover too much stuff.

Also storytelling in the second half is all over the place. The first half is all about developing the plot and characters while in action. The second half on the other hand changes to a more expository kind of storytelling, where the plot is advanced through exposition and infodump instead of going along with the action. It feels like a different series, and fucks up the buildup towards the climax (storytelling 101, the second half of your story has to be faster paced than the first half!!).

The second half seems clumsily put together. Like it's written by someone else or they didn't know what to do.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by dmaxzero

But the wind thingy still bothers me.

When it appeared in Wings of Goodbye for the first time it was actually pretty cool and was used in a very grandiose way as the cherry of the cake. But here... it exist because for some reason Macross needed to have mahou shoujo genre. I still have no idea why. (Popular genre? =p)

It's been foreshadowed before?

For one, if I recall correctly, it's used in the final episode of Zero, similar ideas utilized in 7 and episode 25 of Frontier.

It's only more obvious in Wings of Goodbye.

That said, I don't mind that Delta is abusing it a little too much because it's main rivals (Hayate and Keith, Cassim is dead) both obtain this ability through their own means (Keith from Heinz/runes, Hayate from Freyja) and ironically places them on equal ground for a fight (unlike Alto and Brera in Frontier: cyborg vs. human). Which, if you could view it like that, means the victor is determined by who will outsmart the other or who is more determined to win the fight.

Now, if everyone in the series could use it, I'd be agreeing with you on its abuse.

[SleepingTerror]

Originally Posted by ippus

>>Mirage is always around to just fix other people's problems! She has zero developments of her own!
When Mirage has developments of her own: God she's so mopey and she's not DEFEATING EVERYTHING IN THE LINE OF SIGHT and going Ultra powermode! IGNORE IGNORE IGNORE.

Please elaborate on these developments. No seriously, because one day she's confessing to Hayate that she's not as great of pilot as he is, and that she feels terrible that she can't live up to her family's name, and the next she's a okay. Where is the development in that? When did this happen? Is this not an asspull or did I somehow miss the episode where Mirage actually earns these abilities instead being granted them?
For the record, I don't actually hate Mirage. She doesn't possess any qualities I despise in particular. But I see very little to like about her either.
Also, ultra powermode? I mean, Mirage and Mikumo do have similar names so perhaps there's a little confusion here

[ReddyRedWolf]

Episode 22 finally explained how the Aerial Knights went around without having a Fold Booster or piggybacking a carrier. Protoculture Fold Quartz based Fold Systems can generate a two way Fold gate from the origin to the target destination. This is different from the explanation in Macross Chronicle where the Fold drive generates a warp bubble in Fold Space.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by SleepingTerror

For the record, I don't actually hate Mirage. She doesn't possess any qualities I despise in particular. But I see very little to like about her either.

I agree on this: I don't dislike anything about Mirage personally (her personality or background); in fact, I liked her in episode 2 and believed in her developing into a good character by episode 13, especially because of her instructor relationship/rivalry with Hayate. However, episodes passed by where all I could see is her on the sidelines observing others and ironically questionable feelings for Hayate developing. And all I could think is: Why does Macross introduce characters like this every series? Ironically, it's normally a side character who receives development on the sidelines (like Luca and Nanase in Frontier), not a main character like Mirage is displayed as endlessly. If her character development is there, it's not like a main character because it's not obvious for all Delta's viewers (Japan complains about her random development, too).

And ironically, for all the flak I receive for shipping HayaFre, the first character I liked in Delta is Hayate. Because Freyja had a similar personality trait I initially disliked in Sheryl, her character had to grow on me, and did so in episodes 2 through 5. The chemistry for Hayate and Freyja in those beginning episodes solidified my desire to ship them, that's it. That said, I didn't feel a vibe for Messar and Kaname (as a ship) and liked Makina and Reina more for their dynamic. Hell, I like a lot of characters in Delta for their potentials, regardless if the writing is living up to it. Because every character in Delta has good potentials and every single one is wasted.

[SleepingTerror]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

And ironically, for all the flak I receive for shipping HayaFre, the first character I liked in Delta is Hayate. Because Freyja had a similar personality trait I initially disliked in Sheryl, her character had to grow on me, and did so in episodes 2 through 5.

I'm a sucker for cute bundles of energy, so Freyja was an instant favorite.
Sheryl I disliked for the most part, but I won't get into that.
I also ship HayaFre, but after this episode, I kinda want Freyja to ditch Hayate and go for Mikumo hehe. As much as I enjoy Freyja Hayate moments, I ultimately like Freyja as a character more when she's around Mikumo.
Oh, and Hayate is pretty cool. He's not the kind of character I get attached to, but I do like how he cares about people to a fault so it doesn't feel entirely superficial.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

And ironically, for all the flak I receive for shipping HayaFre, the first character I liked in Delta is Hayate. Because Freyja had a similar personality trait I initially disliked in Sheryl, her character had to grow on me, and did so in episodes 2 through 5.

I was actually the opposite. I really liked Freyja a lot right from the preview episode, but I didn't particularly like Hayate until the end of Episode 3. The way Freyja and Hayate's stories beautifully paralleled each other in the first 3 episodes, and the way the two came together to ensure each others' success in Episode 3, quickly won me over to this ship. Hayate and Freyja would then go on to have a lot of very nice moments throughout the rest of the first cour, particularly in the big "Ragna Falls" episode, which still remains my favorite Delta episode.

Hell, I like a lot of characters in Delta for their potentials, regardless if the writing is living up to it. Because every character in Delta has good potentials and every single one is wasted.

I think that's a little harsh. I think Hayate's character has been handled pretty well overall. Yeah, they haven't really done much with the "Wright Immelman WMD'ed Windermere" plot thread, but there's still 4 episodes left, and with Hayate now on Windermere, there's a decent chance this plot thread will meet a good conclusion for Hayate's character. Aside from this plot thread needing closure, what's wrong with Hayate?

Freyja was a consistently entertaining and charming character throughout the entire first half, pretty much. Yeah, she's been down in the dumps lately, but that might just make it all the sweeter if she has some good moments of heroism in the next few episodes. Freyja does sometimes leave me wanting a little more on the... intellectual side of things, I guess you could say... but she's a fun lovable imagination-catching character for me.

Walkure has actually been better-developed than I thought they would be, and Mirage has had some very nice scenes in Delta's 2nd half.

The Windermere side does leave something to be desired, but given how a good number of us viewed them as borderline-irredeemable war criminals in the first half of the show, I'm not exactly disappointed here.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think that's a little harsh.

I'm more referring to how this second half is handling all those character developments from the first half.

I mean, for one, Hayate and Freyja resonance is no longer an important relationship in this series even after all its build up in the first half. Chuck is a seriously pushed aside secondary character. The whole Messar/Kaname/Arad minor triangle is more forced at this point. And even if the second half is building on Mirage as a character, it's failing so hard because none of it is really obvious if it is there in the first half.

The second half is so full of exposition and bad deliverance on its plot points that character focus right now is okay. But, of course, Delta does not know where it's going period on plot or its characters.

And I'll specify here: Every character in Delta had potential based on the first half of the series; and it's second half is bringing it all down in my opinion.
EDIT: This applies to the Chaos side of Delta; Windermere side has been developing all right for the second half aside from plot issues.

[Dash_Hunter]

I was going to give this episode a higher rating, but after watching the episode with subtitles a couple things brought it a little bit down for me.

The scene where Hayate loses control and the subsequent action is great, and Mirage was great in it, but what Hayate said (now that I understand it) was really bad, "I'll never lose control again" really? why, because you say so?
Sometimes Hayate really says stupid things out of nowhere, and what's worse is that the writers make sure to make it true without a logic explanation or a reason.

Also Cassim's death, even though I was starting to like his character his death was very telegraphed, one moment he's about to kill Hayate and the next it's Hayate shouting to him to regain control of his valk, I mean I know Hayate got to know the guy and spent 10 or 15 minutes with him, but come on! I know they did that so that his death would feel more impactful but that was just silly for me. Also, where was Theo (or was it Xao?) when Mirage and Hayate were following Cassim's valkyrie to crash?, that was a perfect opportunity to shoot down Hayate and/or Miarge.

[HirouKeimou]

It is directed by Kenji Yasuda (Arata: The Legend, Noein) and written by Toshizo Nemoto (Log Horizon, Tokyo Majin) with Shōji Kawamori being the chief director and mechanical designer, while Chisato Mita handling the original character design. Kawamori is also credited as the original creator along Studio Nue.[2]

Source

All I did while reading this is laugh so hard because the writer for the series did Log Horizon, which is criticized a lot for plot holes.

I guess old habits die hard...

I was curious about who wrote this series...

[karice67]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

All I did while reading this is laugh so hard because the writer for the series did Log Horizon, which is criticized a lot for plot holes.

I guess old habits die hard...

I was curious about who wrote this series...

It's not his fault. For either series.

The Log Horizon anime was an adaptation of the novel series written by Touno Mamare.

For Delta, it seems that Kawamori and Yasuda, along with a few producers, developed most of the concepts, themes, and the story, before Nemoto joined the team. There would have been more 'writing' after he got involved, but all of these people would have been in the writer's room with Nemoto, and Kawamori is the one who would have signed off on whatever they chose to do.

Originally Posted by Dash_Hunter

Also, where was Theo (or was it Xao?) when Mirage and Hayate were following Cassim's valkyrie to crash?, that was a perfect opportunity to shoot down Hayate and/or Miarge.

He got shot (down) by Arad.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by karice67

It's not his fault. For either series.

The Log Horizon anime was an adaptation of the novel series written by Touno Mamare.

For Delta, it seems that Kawamori and Yasuda, along with a few producers, developed most of the concepts, themes, and the story, before Nemoto joined the team. There would have been more 'writing', but all of these people would have been in the writer's room with Nemoto, and Kawamori is the one who would have signed off on whatever they chose to do.

The problem aren't so much the concepts or themes, or even the story as a whole. It's the execution particularly in the latter episodes. I think whoever wrote the scripts is most to blame for that along with the director.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

The problem aren't so much the concepts or themes, or even the story as a whole. It's the execution particularly in the latter episodes. I think whoever wrote the scripts is most to blame for that along with the director.

The execution is still something they would have developed as a group in the writer's room. Not to mention that the storyboard (which was done by Satou Hidekazu, Kawamori and Yasuda) is essentially the final version of the production script (see this ANN article for another person who says the same thing). So no, it's still not true that the blame lies mainly with Nemoto, as the person I was replying to said.