Macross Delta - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Keith had very good reason to slay/arrest Roid right then and there - Roid admitted to killing his own King, which is an act of treason greater than anything Freyja has done. Roid's manipulations are also seriously harming the current King, for highly dubious cause. So if Keith was willing to execute Freyja (back in Episode 8), then why not Roid? Is it just because of Keith's personal attachment to Roid? Is it because Keith fears that nobody is capable of being the true leader of Windermere if Roid is removed? Is this really all about Keith continuing to run away from the Windermere leadership role that arguably should have been his anyway? Somewhere in all of this lies the potential for a very strong tragedy tale, and I hope Kawamori/Nemoto makes good on that potential.

Roid is like a brother to Keith (you know in the sense Makina and Reina are like sisters ). I think he still wants to believe what he says, even if he shouldn't. That he still has Windermere's greater good in his heart even if Keith disagrees with the current way he's handling things. However, the relationship is dangerously close to collapse. Even Roid seems aware of that (with him going "I can't fly the same sky again"). I agree that Heinz is a victim in all this. Someone should call galactic social services. And yeah, it's all about Keith running away from being the heir of the throne because of his estranged family issues (Roid was the first one he felt was his 'family', before Heinz was born) and his passion of flying. Like Alto's storyline, but more dramatic and minus a Sheryl to give him a swift needed kick to straighten his act. Anyway, with all sad faces Roid's doing, I think he'll probably sacrifice himself in the end for Heinz or Keith when he becomes aware that he's lost his way and the sight of his goal. Cliche, but he doesn't seem like an antagonist who would go down to a protagonist's weapon, he's way too engrossed in this dynamic.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Thess

Roid is like a brother to Keith (you know in the sense Makina and Reina are like sisters ). I think he still wants to believe what he says, even if he shouldn't. That he still has Windermere's greater good in his heart even if Keith disagrees with the current way he's handling things. However, the relationship is dangerously close to collapse. Even Roid seems aware of that (with him going "I can't fly the same sky again"). I agree that Heinz is a victim in all this. Someone should call galactic social services. And yeah, it's all about Keith running away from being the heir of the throne because of his estranged family issues (Roid was the first one he felt was his 'family', before Heinz was born) and his passion of flying. Like Alto's storyline, but more dramatic and minus a Sheryl to give him a swift needed kick to straighten his act.

At this point, consider the level of detail the plot is focused on the Windermere leadership issues, I am starting to suspect that the war isn't going to end with just a traditional battle. Assuming there is no way for outsiders to intervene, it is starting to become plausible that there is going to be a leadership crisis that might lead to a breakdown of command.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

At this point, consider the level of detail the plot is focused on the Windermere leadership issues, I am starting to suspect that the war isn't going to end with just a traditional battle. Assuming there is no way for outsiders to intervene, it is starting to become plausible that there is going to be a leadership crisis that might lead to a breakdown of command.

I repeat what I said earlier: Macross Delta is too overambitious for its own good for the amount of episodes it has. There're conspiracies everywhere. Look at what we have to resolve and all the fronts have dubious and bad apples (pardon the pun):

- Hayate's father subplot which had Hayate saying "I'll find out the truth and..."???? That's likely going to bring back those four corrupted NUNS people who disappeared without trace after they had their little SEELE moment (come to think the guy Hayate rescued also disappeared completely after he mouthed some suspicious things about his father). Though, other side material does cover they are shifty and corrupted as hell. Corruption within NUNS.
- Windermere leadership drama subplot which is framed more about some kind of family tragedy and such than military conspiracy with all the emotional impact in their relationships. As I said earlier, this 'galactic war' declaration led nowhere except creating a riff between Roid and Keith (and other people too but mostly what is being developed is Keith vs Roid positions, even Newtype just called them incompatible: Keith wants to "fly the sky of Windermere" while Roid wants to "own the galaxy sky" or something like that, iirc. Between them is Heinz. Roid-Heinz-Keith 'triangle' is going to be important). The magazine also stressed that Roid lost his way without realizing it, so they are trying to paint as if he was a good person who just lost himself so they're just building it for tragedy, IMO. Yes, it's all internal, it'll be just bad writing if, say, Chuck somehow gets there and shoots Roid (Berger shooting him wouldn't surprise me though). Corruption within Windermere.
- Chaos... uh Lady M issues and stuff about music weaponization. There are shady business with Mikumo or when Kaname simply disagrees with the tests they wanted to run on Freyja or Hayate (or what she heard they wanted to 'research' Freyja's rune). Okay, the novelization made them shadier since the beginning (including Mirage), but in the anime it came out from nowhere. Absolutely dumb as hell leadership in Chaos.
- Epsilon. Berger's smile in the end of the conversation with Roid is frankly not looking good for either side. And I agree with a previous poster, weapons traders are the ones who are profiting from this conflict and there's no way they'll come out unscathed. It's like people forget that in the real world, what started big XX century wars are these kind of weapon manufacturers who need to sell and capitalize in any conflict (might be tied in with Hayate's dad plot I hope). Mandatory fourth greedy corrupted faction.
- Star singer and ruins magic voodoo in the end. Ominous as hell. The possibly mandatory final monster/villain thing that is sealed within the ruins by protoculture!

Too many things. Five episodes left. At this point, it feels like watching different shows within a show. I mean you could have easily made a show about Windermere drama and another about idols fighting some var syndrome thing and dealing with some conspiracy and dubious higher ups. The tone shift is kind of irritating. It does feel that Keith is just as a main character like Freyja and Hayate with the amount of focus and development he's getting (in comparison to other supposed major characters).

[magnuskn]

Since I'm on my break at work, I sadly lack a "quote" (and "edit") button, hence a more haphazard response:

@HirouKeimo:

- Heinz: Do you believe that the kid is mentally damaged? We shouldn't forget that in 2 or 3 years he is supposed to marry and have children. I find this attempt to infantilize the deeds of a walking, talking WMD quite distasteful, to be honest. "Oh, saint Heinz is totally innocent, even more so than the white driven snow which was Ranka and we must deny that he has any agency at all in enslaving the entire galaxy with his voice."

Spoiler for Sheryl:

- The key difference here is that for TV Sheryl, the betrayal by Grace came out of absolutely nowhere. You cannot blame her for getting blindsided by something which she simply had no information whatsoever about. Heinz is well aware that his faction is at war and that he is helping to conquer star systems. He has had ample time to reflect about this, since there is a passage of weeks and months, and still is not shown to have any, any regrets or doubts.

Spoiler for Ranka:

- Ranka: That in the end she stumbled into the correct solution, does not give her any agency for them. She was the cause of many things, but not of her own determination, except to bring peace with the Vajra. Which she also bumbled into.

@Thess:

- Heinz: Heinz supporting the war instantly swayed the skeptics of the war in the crown during his coronation. He has absolute power, if he chose to exercise it.

I don't even want to discuss this with you. You have the full Windbag glory blinders on again and infantilize Heinz to the point as if he were a five year old human. He is supposed to marry in about 2-3 years, remember? He has had literal months to figure out an actual opinion and at this point, I am not ready to give him the benefit of the doubt anymore.

- Sheryl [spoiler]No, I am not going to blame Sheryl for things she didn't even know existed. Unlike Heinz, who is fully aware that he is serving as a WMD. You are really getting ridiculous in your attempts to use the Sheryl card when your precious Windbags are threatened. Please don't try to throw mud at her just to make your favorite factions war crimes look better. [/quote]

[ippus]

So a few things, I'm also on the boat where Mikumo is likely not a clone- from the way she talks about it, it seemed like Mikumo is just assuming she's a clone rather than actually having been told she's a clone? (once again I'm not sure if the nuance of the translations were accurate) CHAOS seems to have at least told her the fold receptors were implanted into her cells but that doesn't necessarily mean she was born 3 years ago, just that she became her current self three years ago. Whatever it is though CHAOS seems to have at the very least done something recently to make her memories previous to that obsolete for some reason or another.

The discussion between Arad and Johnson is curious too...as they spoke like Lady M was going to deal with the reveal of Mikumo's secret yet only Mikumo has come out to speak with the rest of the Walkure??

I'm also starting to think there's some weird like..fold emitting creature manipulating the wind or something in Windermere...like...what was that whole sparkly wind thing speaking to Roid all about? It just happened to give him the missing piece to connecting all of humanity in a hive mind--??? Like forget Roid and Berger, what in the hell happened there?

[Matts]

Originally Posted by ippus

I'm also starting to think there's some weird like..fold emitting creature manipulating the wind or something in Windermere...like...what was that whole sparkly wind thing speaking to Roid all about?

Probably the thing the show's writers will pull out for the finale so the Winds get a get out of jail free card.

or

there is always my favourite guess: Grace

[Thess]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

- Heinz: Heinz supporting the war instantly swayed the skeptics of the war in the crown during his coronation. He has absolute power, if he chose to exercise it.

No? He's still a child who is doing what he's told. It's not like he came up with it either. A child who has just lost his father and was told his father wanted this and given duties from an adult which he shouldn't take up in middle of a war. No, he doesn't have "absolute" power. If he did, Roid wouldn't have been the on in charge of decisions about his doctor and leading the army. He does have power but he doesn't use it because he's a child. All he's doing is singing himself to early grave because Roid told him this is the best thing he could do.

And don't give me the "th-they'll marry in a few years" excuse was if it's the same. Their bodies are capable of reproduction, but the brain doesn't develop because your genitals do. A human boy or girl of 13 are also capable of reproduction, but the brain is still immature. A 9-11 years old isn't even capable of abstract thinking to make your reasonings. Please stop because it's embarrassing to hold accountable a child like if he was an adult.

I don't even want to discuss this with you. You have the full Windbag glory blinders on again and infantilize Heinz to the point as if he were a five year old human. He is supposed to marry in about 2-3 years, remember? He has had literal months to figure out an actual opinion and at this point, I am not ready to give him the benefit of the doubt anymore.

I'm not infantilizing him. In his age group, he's capable of operational concrete thinking, but none of the level of abstraction that you pretend him to have. I showed you a concrete evidence he has no idea about what's happening: he doesn't recognize Mikumo when she outsang him.

You're the one who is making him an adult because you need to demonize him to validate your own ethnocentric moral standards. Underlining a word that caught my eye. It's been established that humans and Windermerians bodies mature at the same speed, until, they hit their late 20s-early 30s.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

- Sheryl [spoiler]No, I am not going to blame Sheryl for things she didn't even know existed. Unlike Heinz, who is fully aware that he is serving as a WMD. You are really getting ridiculous in your attempts to use the Sheryl card when your precious Windbags are threatened. Please don't try to throw mud at her just to make your favorite factions war crimes look better.

Nope, it's exactly the same thing. Sheryl was kept in the dark but she was a tool Galaxy used to put in motion their galaxy conquest plan and thanks to her, Frontier was attacked. Heinz is singing because he wants to end the conflict once and for all to avoid deaths. This has been his motivation since the beginning, and he ignores Roid is just using him as tool like Grace used Sheryl. Maybe if you remove your bias blinders you'll realize he's being portrayed as a victim too. This doesn't make Windermere good or anything, it just portrays Roid in a worst light even because he's taking advantage of a kid and make him die for this cause.

Originally Posted by ippus

I'm also starting to think there's some weird like..fold emitting creature manipulating the wind or something in Windermere...like...what was that whole sparkly wind thing speaking to Roid all about? It just happened to give him the missing piece to connecting all of humanity in a hive mind--??? Like forget Roid and Berger, what in the hell happened there?

This is what I fear too. I just don't want another bonus antagonistic force out nowhere... Maybe it's the real Star Singer (and Mikumo got cells of hers implanted on her). Anyway, I just hope it's not some random antagonist sealed subplot. It's five episodes until it ends and we haven't resolved a single thing.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Thess

Too many things. Five episodes left. At this point, it feels like watching different shows within a show. I mean you could have easily made a show about Windermere drama and another about idols fighting some var syndrome thing and dealing with some conspiracy and dubious higher ups. The tone shift is kind of irritating. It does feel that Keith is just as a main character like Freyja and Hayate with the amount of focus and development he's getting (in comparison to other supposed major characters).

The issue here isn't the number of characters, but that the multiple subplots have no relation with each other. Had they all been truly connected in some way, you could resolve multiple plots at the same time. Yet in Delta those involve in their own subplots basically don't interact.

For example, if Mirage had some political connections in Chaos then we can have her resolve the issue with the secret conspiracy. If Freyja had some kind of minor blood relation with the Windermere royal family, she could have intervened in the Royal subplot.

It might be more contrived to have everyone connected to everyone else Star Wars style, but the benefit is then you can tell far more stories in a shorter time.

I mean, it is fascinating that Mikumo and Hayate, two of the major characters on the same side of the war, barely talked to each other. That normally just wouldn't do.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The issue here isn't the number of characters, but that the multiple subplots have no relation with each other. Had they all been truly connected in some way, you could resolve multiple plots at the same time. Yet in Delta those involve in their own subplots basically don't interact.

I agree this is one of the show greatest weakness. Yes, subplots but those subplots are connected to the huge cast of characters which are ignored or underused or not connecting at all (that's why the plots are running around and leading nowhere). Or too few episodes to explore them (why was Norman, Herman's son, introduced out freaking nowhere? What was the point?). The idea behind Delta is great and up episode 13, it had such strong beginning... Ah well...

Look at Hayate-Keith 'rivalry'. Do you feel anything about their conflict? Nah. It just seems they are fighting because both miss Messer when, if you peek the manga and novel, Keith very similar to Hayate but his past trauma embittered him. Would have been great if they bothered to address those parallels in the show. That's a problem because it makes Hayate completely removed from Windermere drama even if his father nuked it (another storyline which was merely used as plot device to make Freyja and Hayate sad and then dropped).

Frankly speaking, if they were going to give Keith this much of screentime as he's getting (mind you, I'm not against character development, so I'm happy, he, Kaname, Mikumo, etc are getting screentime but still), they really should have done any of the following, IMO: a) made him related to Freyja like you proposed, so this will involve her (thus Hayate) into that internal drama. b) Replace Mirage in the main love triangle to get a cohesive storytelling (plus making the hayate-keith rivalry get some substance). c) Set a secondary love triangle with him, Heinz and Roid, with the changes that are necessary to run in parallel to the main one (yes, this triangle is important but it makes the main love triangle look kind of useless when only Freyja-Hayate connection have some kind of impact, at least with the romance element it could be a foil). d) Have Keith fall for a non Freyja idol instead of Bogue which would make Walkure involved into the internal Windermere affairs. Or hell, Mirage, fulfilling her fantasy about bringing two sides of war together like her grandparents (and it might even give Mirage more screentime and some kind of plot weight if it was Keith->Mirage->Hayate<-Freyja stuff!). Because, IMO, again it feels like I'm watching two shows clumsily put together into one. It wasn't like this in the first half, but since the second one it looks uneven and disconnected.

[SleepingTerror]

Gonna be honest but this episode did not portray Mikumo in the light I was hoping. The bioengineered human(?) was somewhat expected, but it bothers me how she was able to pick herself right back up. I mean, applause for her, but it doesn't do much for her character in my eyes if literally all she wants to do is sing. Probably just me but kind of wanted to see a more human side to her now that the mysterious side of her is kind of gone.
The preview of the next episode where she speaks with Hayate gives me some hope.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by SleepingTerror

Probably just me but kind of wanted to see a more human side to her now that the mysterious side of her is kind of gone.

True.
Because Mikumo is in character, all right. She's not human, and justifies she isn't in the end, but from her perspective, it should not change who she is. It's up for debate if she chose this based on the others trying to save her regardless of discovering what she is or not. She chooses to sing regardless because she has nothing else.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Thess

No? He's still a child who is doing what he's told. It's not like he came up with it either. A child who has just lost his father and was told his father wanted this and given duties from an adult which he shouldn't take up in middle of a war. No, he doesn't have "absolute" power. If he did, Roid wouldn't have been the on in charge of decisions about his doctor and leading the army. He does have power but he doesn't use it because he's a child. All he's doing is singing himself to early grave because Roid told him this is the best thing he could do.

And don't give me the "th-they'll marry in a few years" excuse was if it's the same. Their bodies are capable of reproduction, but the brain doesn't develop because your genitals do. A human boy or girl of 13 are also capable of reproduction, but the brain is still immature. A 9-11 years old isn't even capable of abstract thinking to make your reasonings. Please stop because it's embarrassing to hold accountable a child like if he was an adult.

Alright, then let's just infantilize Freyja, too, from now on. She's just an airheaded 15 year old teenager, no agency blabbetyblabbetybla.

Nope. Not buying your excuses.

Spoiler for Still Frontier spoilers -.-:

Originally Posted by Thess

Nope, it's exactly the same thing. Sheryl was kept in the dark but she was a tool Galaxy used to put in motion their galaxy conquest plan and thanks to her, Frontier was attacked. Heinz is singing because he wants to end the conflict once and for all to avoid deaths. This has been his motivation since the beginning, and he ignores Roid is just using him as tool like Grace used Sheryl. Maybe if you remove your bias blinders you'll realize he's being portrayed as a victim too. This doesn't make Windermere good or anything, it just portrays Roid in a worst light even because he's taking advantage of a kid and make him die for this cause.

You know something... screw this. You are doing the worst bullshit conflations to protect your beloved, glorious Windbag war criminals. I had enough of this BS. Bye, off you go.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

On another note Kaname comes from a civil war torn planet called Divide. Who the hell names ther planet that?

It could have a giant mountain range splitting its main landmass in half, or an inconvenient sea doing the same thing, or be tidelocked and one side stays in the sun all the time and the other side only gets darkness, etc...

Originally Posted by SleepingTerror

Gonna be honest but this episode did not portray Mikumo in the light I was hoping. The bioengineered human(?) was somewhat expected, but it bothers me how she was able to pick herself right back up. I mean, applause for her, but it doesn't do much for her character in my eyes if literally all she wants to do is sing. Probably just me but kind of wanted to see a more human side to her now that the mysterious side of her is kind of gone.

Her tone seemed a little different, though. After finally seeing the scene with subs I had an unexplainable feeling that her recovery involved some sort of reprogramming; she seemed weird in a different way than usual.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Alright, then let's just infantilize Freyja, too, from now on. She's just an airheaded 15 year old teenager, no agency blabbetyblabbetybla.

I'm not one for arguing mentality of characters; however, Freyja and Heinz led completely different lives which shaped their mentality.

Freyja is a village girl who witnessed the bombing itself (which if I go by dates, Heinz is like 2 when this happens?) and cheered her people up as a child by singing. However, it's implied her parents died during the Independence War and she is living with an elder (more so implied by her saying the Mayor insisted she marry once she is 12). Because no one is really controlling her life, she is rash in decisions and charges headlong into things (like singing in episode 1), and she is not scared of dying because she is living "in the moment."

Heinz led a very sheltered life where all of his information about his people, planet, and otherwise is delivered by his servants (and Roid) and/or his family members. If you remember, when Keith dragged him to the "scar" on their planet, he implied Heinz does not go out very much either so he barely knows his planet outside of his palace. Because of his sheltered life, Heinz more than likely does not know how to function on his own or do anything with his own power. In other words, he requires guidance because he did not learn on his own.

There's a big difference in their mentality.

While Freyja is able to choose her own path and is maturing because she experienced life as it is to be enjoyed, Heinz is living in a bubble like a typical prince who is naive of the world.

[magnuskn]

Dude, he is a prince. Not a Disney princess. The job of a prince is to be king one day. They don't get the luxury of "growing up sheltered", they are required to learn to govern. Gramia wasn't going to make it another two years, Heinz would have had to be ready on day one to govern.

And don't tell me that this would be a totally novel thing on Windermere. They live thirty years, they have a history going back probably five to ten thousand years, just as we do. That situation would have come up again and again, so they would have known to school the princes young.

This whole "Heinz is young and naive and nobody ever told him anything" excuse runs straight against the pure reality of the Windermeran race.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

This whole "Heinz is young and naive and nobody ever told him anything" excuse runs straight against the pure reality of the Windermeran race.

Again, until Keith dragged Heinz up to the "scar" of their planet, Heinz had no idea why Gramia desired revenge on the NUNS or even about Earth in general. If he is not "naive" and "everyone tells him everything" then why is this important information not delivered to him before the war begins or even before he is singing for this? Did he have no right to understand why he needs to assist in this war for his people? The answer is simple: Yes. Because even if Gramia inquires he is his son, he does not care about Heinz in general, as he abuses his son's abilities even at the expense of his health in order to carry out his goal. And like a prideful, obedient son, Heinz did as father insisted, and is still trying to live up to his father's goals. However, Heinz is very naive of what his people think of the situation. How much do you see Heinz interacting with citizens outside of speeches? How much do you see him learning about his people personally? You never do. Because he's not allowed those benefits; because to Gramia (and Roid now), his only use is his abilities which rival the Star Singer. That's all he is: a tool.



Also, side note; I'm a girl.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Dude, he is a prince. Not a Disney princess.

This isn't exactly relevant to your discussion, except for the part that is.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Gravitas Free Zone

This isn't exactly relevant to your discussion, except for the part that is.

They hit on all the right marks so damn hard.

"He sings and animals come to him."

[Random14]

So at this point the best we can hope for is for the compilation movie (or two) to revise the series storyline and have a better ending? Getting rid of most of the subplots for a movie sounds like a good idea.

I don't want lasers and explosions every episode, but three episodes of recap and slow progress isn't exactly riveting (like how Freyja still looks depressed). A Walkure flashback episode helps with the background story, but while its nice to see how Messer joined, of course we don't get to see how Mirage joined up. And of course the whole Walkure tactical sound unit is uniquely... Macross, seeing those four girls go into warzones again and again is pretty dark. At least nice to hear the four of them managed to get some results on their own before Mikumo showed up.

If the nicer Aerial Knights (Herman and Cassim) ever heard about what really happened to Gramia, they'd probably revolt, not like that idiot Keith. Especially with how Roid's still clearly been experimenting rather than actually conquering the galaxy.

And getting tired of the "Lady M" excuse. Any questions? Please direct them to Lady M, who we've never seen or heard from directly ever. Maybe Lady M will just turn out to be a hologram, and pay no attention to that person behind the curtain.

[Ura-dora]

Originally Posted by SleepingTerror

Gonna be honest but this episode did not portray Mikumo in the light I was hoping. The bioengineered human(?) was somewhat expected, but it bothers me how she was able to pick herself right back up. I mean, applause for her, but it doesn't do much for her character in my eyes if literally all she wants to do is sing. Probably just me but kind of wanted to see a more human side to her now that the mysterious side of her is kind of gone.
The preview of the next episode where she speaks with Hayate gives me some hope.

The interaction between Mikumo, Kaname, Reina and Makina was very odd on Mikumo's end. It didn't do more for her character in the sense that she drastically changed, what it did do for her character was solidify that she takes singing seriously because it is the only thing she knows. Throughout the story, rather than using words to convey how she is feeling, she resorts to singing. A few good examples are Messer's death, Freyja's birthday, her induction into Walkure, and even rescuing her teammates.

The thing with Mikumo's development is that its never given entirely. Everything about her is subtile, so her development might go unnoticed if not analyzed. The Mikumo during the interaction with Reina, Kaname and Makina is not the one we are used to. She begins the conversation asking the girls what intel they got (before revealing what she knows). It's clear that Mikumo doesn't fully believe the information given to her about her past, but just accepts it. Then Mikumo proceeds to tell them the information that HQ and Lady M gave her. The emotion in her voice, and the words that came from her mouth were both empty. She just stated the facts, raw and to the point. Mikumo dehumanized herself, and Makina and Reina tries to reassure her, however she dismisses it. Even at the end when she declared that she will continue to sing, her words lacked the usual spark and passion we've come to know from her. Rather than passion Mikumo is now singing as a tool. Rather than becoming apart of the group, the information given to Mikumo makes her feel more secluded from the group. Mikumo was dehumanized.