Fun with numbers, Gundam style

[NeonZ]

NeonZ, if AMBAC behaves as you described, then it would only be used to halt a rotation initiated by the thrusters. As such, it would neither cause the machine to move faster, nor would it save much fuel. This motion is rather trivial compared to the force that can be generated by the thrusters and verniers, therefore, it is effectively useless.

Huh... I think you're missing the point. Let's say that a Zaku activates it thrusters to run in a straight line. Without Ambac, in order to make a turn, it'd need to use other thrusters and waste fuel. With Ambac, it'll only need to make a fast movement to turn around.

The reason is that the strength of a material (the gun in this case) grows as a factor of the square of it's cross-section, while the stresses grow as a cube. This means that as a gun is scaled up, it must devote mass to its structure at a much higher proportion, or else the weapon will fall apart upon firing. This explains why a modern tank gun is only about 10x the calibre of a modern sniper rifle, but have several orders of magnitude the kinetic energy. It should also be obvious why simply upscaling a gun is a very bad idea.

Well, but they didn't "simply" upscaled a gun, it's just a basic comparison. Anyway, you've just repeated what I've said. As the size grows, it gets increasingly hard to make the same weapon even bigger.

However, it's stated that the Zeon essentially managed to do that sucessfully, without any kind of real disadvantages. Is it realistic? No. But it is the official information about that weapon, you can't argue against that in the context of the Universal Century.

If an automatic weapon has a "low-recoil" then, it must perforce have a very low muzzle-velocity as well. Upscaling such a weapon will therefore produce a low muzzle-velocity weapon similar to what we see in the 120mm. On the other hand, a rifle built for sniping purposes must have a high recoil. This is after all one of the laws of motion - equal and opposite reaction and all.

Huh... I was not talking about physics contradiction, I was saying that the rifle mentioned by one book and the MachineGun mentioned by the other one are the same weapon. They both seem to be the same standard weapon of the Zakus shown in the animation.

Note that even the rifle is stated to have a "rapid fire" mode, so, it clearly wasn't built only for sniping. It seems to be able to switch modes, working like a machinegun or like a sniper rifle.

Modern tanks have special ammunition to shoot down helicopters.

Admittedly, I don't know much about helicopters... How comparable is one helicopter to a Zaku? Not only the speed itself, but its ability to change directions on the fly. Aren't the maneuvers rather slow, because its stability can be easily lost?

This would be sort of hard given the weakness of the 120mm.

But it isn't weak. If it can pierce the armor of a space battleship, it will easily destroy a tank made with the same level of technology (the Magella).

Reconaissance is generally left to specialty vehicles - this is one of the reasons for the strength of combined-arms tactics.

I don't mean only reconnaissance. With the better sensors and height advantage, the Zaku could snipe from a ridiculously far away position, out of the tank's range. When it's closer, it has a rapid fire mode that isn't avaliable to the Magella.

I'm not talking about a generic human shaped machine vs a real tank, but about the Zaku and the Magella.

[fizzmaister]

I concede on the pounds mass/ pounds force. But since I'm currently taking a physics class, I find that terminology irksome. What little time we spent in non-SI, we just learned that pounds is force, slugs is mass and a slug on earth equals 32 pounds.

[reinloch]

Originally Posted by NeonZ

Huh... I think you're missing the point. Let's say that a Zaku activates it thrusters to run in a straight line. Without Ambac, in order to make a turn, it'd need to use other thrusters and waste fuel. With Ambac, it'll only need to make a fast movement to turn around.

Well, but they didn't "simply" upscaled a gun, it's just a basic comparison. Anyway, you've just repeated what I've said. As the size grows, it gets increasingly hard to make the same weapon even bigger.

However, it's stated that the Zeon essentially managed to do that sucessfully, without any kind of real disadvantages. Is it realistic? No. But it is the official information about that weapon, you can't argue against that in the context of the Universal Century.

Huh... I was not talking about physics contradiction, I was saying that the rifle mentioned by one book and the MachineGun mentioned by the other one are the same weapon. They both seem to be the same standard weapon of the Zakus shown in the animation.

Note that even the rifle is stated to have a "rapid fire" mode, so, it clearly wasn't built only for sniping. It seems to be able to switch modes, working like a machinegun or like a sniper rifle.

Then why not eliminate all the vernier thrusters? It sure lightens up the MS.

Originally Posted by NeonZ

Admittedly, I don't know much about helicopters... How comparable is one helicopter to a Zaku? Not only the speed itself, but its ability to change directions on the fly. Aren't the maneuvers rather slow, because its stability can be easily lost?

No, they're certainly faster and more agile.

Originally Posted by NeonZ

But it isn't weak. If it can pierce the armor of a space battleship, it will easily destroy a tank made with the same level of technology (the Magella).

The argument put up is an what range? Didn't the Zakus shot battleships at point blank in IGLOO?

Originally Posted by NeonZ

I don't mean only reconnaissance. With the better sensors and height advantage, the Zaku could snipe from a ridiculously far away position, out of the tank's range. When it's closer, it has a rapid fire mode that isn't avaliable to the Magella.

I'm not talking about a generic human shaped machine vs a real tank, but about the Zaku and the Magella.

It is not a good idea to snipe a moving target at long distances with an unguided weapon.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by NeonZ

Huh... I think you're missing the point. Let's say that a Zaku activates it thrusters to run in a straight line. Without Ambac, in order to make a turn, it'd need to use other thrusters and waste fuel. With Ambac, it'll only need to make a fast movement to turn around.

You should do the math. If a mobile suit can do a 180-degree rotation in about a second. Then the maneuver would only use up a maximum of 1s of burn-time. This is an absolutely trivial expenditure of propellant. Any claims of vast (or even significant) fuel savings is greatly overblown. In addition, a thruster-propelled rotation should be the fastest method a space vehicle has for changing orientation.

Originally Posted by NeonZ

Well, but they didn't "simply" upscaled a gun, it's just a basic comparison. Anyway, you've just repeated what I've said. As the size grows, it gets increasingly hard to make the same weapon even bigger.

However, it's stated that the Zeon essentially managed to do that sucessfully, without any kind of real disadvantages. Is it realistic? No. But it is the official information about that weapon, you can't argue against that in the context of the Universal Century.

I'm afraid that the comparison is completely invalid, except as an over-simplified explanation for people who don't really understand physics. While the official information may state that that's how the gun works, this is directly contradicted by the visual evidence of the shows themselves. Which source do you think should have the greater weight in this situation?

Originally Posted by NeonZ

Huh... I was not talking about physics contradiction, I was saying that the rifle mentioned by one book and the MachineGun mentioned by the other one are the same weapon. They both seem to be the same standard weapon of the Zakus shown in the animation.

Note that even the rifle is stated to have a "rapid fire" mode, so, it clearly wasn't built only for sniping. It seems to be able to switch modes, working like a machinegun or like a sniper rifle.

It should be obvious that I was saying that the contradiction was found in the "low recoil" claim. After all, that is the basis of the analysis of the 120mm. NeonZ, you don't seem capable of reconciling the dichotomy between a weapon that can be low recoil and long ranged at the same time, so you're making up some sort of mode-switching mechanism for it. If you had even a basic understanding of how firearms work, you'd quickly realise why this is an absolutely unworkable compromise. Even if you didn't have that kind of knowledge, it should still be obvious why you can't combine the two weapons.

Originally Posted by NeonZ

Admittedly, I don't know much about helicopters... How comparable is one helicopter to a Zaku? Not only the speed itself, but its ability to change directions on the fly. Aren't the maneuvers rather slow, because its stability can be easily lost?

If a tank can peg a helicopter moving at 200-300kph, it would have no problem hitting a mobile suit at 88kph. Also, you can forget any fantasies of Zaku IIs dodging tank fire. After all, when's the last time you heard of anyone dodging bullets?

Originally Posted by NeonZ

But it isn't weak. If it can pierce the armor of a space battleship, it will easily destroy a tank made with the same level of technology (the Magella).

Please prove that battleship armor is strong before using it to argue that the 120mm is powerful. It's also not inconceivable for a tank to have superior armor to a warship.

Originally Posted by NeonZ

I don't mean only reconnaissance. With the better sensors and height advantage, the Zaku could snipe from a ridiculously far away position, out of the tank's range. When it's closer, it has a rapid fire mode that isn't avaliable to the Magella.

I'm not talking about a generic human shaped machine vs a real tank, but about the Zaku and the Magella.

So in your fantasy world, the Magella would magically miss seeing the massive target of a Zaku II, but the opposite is not true. I find this personally hard to accept especially given that the Zaku II offers about 5x the target profile.

In armored combat, the winner of a tank duel is not the one that fires the most shots, but the one that fires the most accurate shots that penetrate. In your convenient scenario, you also forgotten the fact that the Magella is going to have far superior armor.

Originally Posted by fizzmaister

But since I'm currently taking a physics class, I find that terminology irksome. What little time we spent in non-SI, we just learned that pounds is force, slugs is mass and a slug on earth equals 32 pounds.

Yep, non-SI units can be a pain in the backside to use. Most civilised countries won't touch them with a stick, but the US still uses those units, so they are commonly encountered in military specifications.

Originally Posted by reinloch

It is not a good idea to snipe a moving target at long distances with an unguided weapon.

Nitpick: with powerful guns, it's quite possible to hit targets at very long ranges. Of course, in a sensible world, the tank will see the mobile suit first (size differential), fire first, hit first (more accurate weapon) and penetrate first (superior armor) as well.

[NeonZ]

This is an absolutely trivial expenditure of propellant.

One quick turn might not be much, but a Zaku won't turn only once during a battle.

I'm afraid that the comparison is completely invalid, except as an over-simplified explanation for people who don't really understand physics. While the official information may state that that's how the gun works, this is directly contradicted by the visual evidence of the shows themselves. Which source do you think should have the greater weight in this situation?

Huh... The show itself and the official information agree on that detail. The only thing which doesn't agree with it is your personal theory, which can't possibly be right considering the shown effectiveness of the Zaku's weapon.

NeonZ, you don't seem capable of reconciling the dichotomy between a weapon that can be low recoil and long ranged at the same time, so you're making up some sort of mode-switching mechanism for it. If you had even a basic understanding of how firearms work, you'd quickly realise why this is an absolutely unworkable compromise. Even if you didn't have that kind of knowledge, it should still be obvious why you can't combine the two weapons.

I'm not making up anything. That official document is the one which talked about the mode switching rifle. It also follows the animation, which showed a few times the Zaku's weapons with a slower paced firing, usually employig explosive shells, and other times showed it aiming from distant positions.

Is it realistic? I don't care. It's still clearly a fact in this show.

If a tank can peg a helicopter moving at 200-300kph, it would have no problem hitting a mobile suit at 88kph. Also, you can forget any fantasies of Zaku IIs dodging tank fire. After all, when's the last time you heard of anyone dodging bullets?

Huh... That's a stupid comparison... A person doesn't have various thrusters spread around his body... nor is the tank's main weapon comparable to someone holding a handheld weapon.

The Gundam's acceleration is 0.93 G, that isn't much better than a Zaku. Yet, it dodged not only solid objects, but much faster Minovsky Particle based beams(even before Amuro actually developed his NT powers). If the Gundam can dodge beams, the Zaku can dodge gunfire.

Please prove that battleship armor is strong before using it to argue that the 120mm is powerful. It's also not inconceivable for a tank to have superior armor to a warship.

It is inconceivable in the case of the Magella, specially considering that it was a space battleship, which the Federation used for actual combat. It'd need increased armor just to be part of that battlefield.

So in your fantasy world, the Magella would magically miss seeing the massive target of a Zaku II, but the opposite is not true. I find this personally hard to accept especially given that the Zaku II offers about 5x the target profile.

Not in my fantasy world, in the Universal Century. And it wouldn't "miss" anything. The Zaku would be simply out of the range of its sensors, but it'd be able to see the Magella perfectly well thanks to its own superior sensors and its position.

In armored combat, the winner of a tank duel is not the one that fires the most shots, but the one that fires the most accurate shots that penetrate. In your convenient scenario, you also forgotten the fact that the Magella is going to have far superior armor.

The Zaku's fire will penetrate. The only target which showed enough armor to be hit by a Machine Gun without being pierced was the Gundam, thanks to its Lunar Titanium. That's a fact.

Where is the scene showing a Zaku failing to seriously damage a Type 61 with a sucessful hit? There isn't one. Watch the original MSG, or any of the OVAs, there isn't a single scene showing a tank (huh...) tanking hits of any solid weapons of Mobile Suits. It's hit. It's damaged or blown up. The Magella still was useful after getting hit, but that was because of its design, it had nothing to do with the armor, considering that the lower section usually was completely destroyed.

Also, about the armor... How do you know anything about the Magella's armor? The Zaku uses "Steel", though that doesn't say much, considering how it's only a generic name for different alloys based on iron and carbon. One of those official files also stated that the Zeon weren't good at making composite alloys, and that was one of the main advances done to the Zeon designs after the Federation got their technology. Considering that, the alloy used on the magella can't be significantly better.

The magella doesn't even have a weight stat. Not only that, the upper half of the Magella seems to be extremely light, considering its abilities. Unless the lower half is made from a different material, I just don't see how it'd have a good, or even decent, armor.

The Type-61 seems to be much more like a conventional tank.

Then why not eliminate all the vernier thrusters? It sure lightens up the MS.

Huh... Why not keep both? It's not like the thrusters(when turned on) will make the MS slower.

No, they're certainly faster and more agile.

Faster they are. But I don't know about agility...

The argument put up is an what range? Didn't the Zakus shot battleships at point blank in IGLOO?

Huh... The argument is that those projectiles would lack speed, and thus, wouldn't have range and power. If they have power, they must have range.

Wasn't the Zaku from MS Igloo using rapid fire? Using the sniping option, the shot would have even more speed.

[reinloch]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Nitpick: with powerful guns, it's quite possible to hit targets at very long ranges. Of course, in a sensible world, the tank will see the mobile suit first (size differential), fire first, hit first (more accurate weapon) and penetrate first (superior armor) as well.

Looking for an analogy in today's technology, I see only field guns which are for hitting static targets. For killing fast moving, highly agile targets from far away, I will put my money on a guided missile.

Originally Posted by NeonZ

Huh... The show itself and the official information agree on that detail. The only thing which doesn't agree with it is your personal theory, which can't possibly be right considering the shown effectiveness of the Zaku's weapon.

I'm not making up anything. That official document is the one which talked about the mode switching rifle. It also follows the animation, which showed a few times the Zaku's weapons with a slower paced firing, usually employig explosive shells, and other times showed it aiming from far away positions.

Is it realistic? I don't care. It's still clearly a fact in this show.

Huh... That's a stupid comparison... A person doesn't have various thrusters spread around his body... nor is the tank's main weapon comparable to someone holding a handheld weapon.

The Gundam's acceleration is 0.93 G, that isn't much better than a Zaku. Yet, it dodged not only solid objects, but much faster Minovsky Particle based beams(even before Amuro actually developed his NT powers). If the Gundam can dodge beams, the Zaku can dodge gunfire.

It is inconceivable in that case of the Magella, specially considering that it was a space battleship, which the Federation used for actual combat. It'd need increased armor just to be part of that battlefield.

Not in my fantasy world, in the Universal Century. And it wouldn't "miss" anything. The Zaku would be simply out of the range of its sensors, but it'd be able to see the Magella perfectly well thanks to its own superior sensors and its position.

The Zaku's fire will penetrate. The only target which showed enough armor to be hit by a Machine Gun without being pierced was the Gundam, thanks to its Lunar Titanium. That's a fact.

Where is the scene showing a Zaku failing to destroy a Type 61 with a sucessful hit? There isn't one. Watch the original MSG, or any of the OVAs, there isn't a single scene showing a tank (huh...) tanking hits of any solid weapons of Mobile Suits. It's hit. It's seriously damaged or blown up. The Magella still was useful after getting hit, but that was because of its design, it had nothing to do with the armor, considering that the lower section usually was completely destroyed.

To say whatever is in the show is canon, this debate is pointless. But realistically speaking, Mobile Suits are near useless on the modern battelfield.

Originally Posted by NeonZ

Huh... Why not keep both? It's not like the thrusters(when turned on) will make the MS slower.

Because I want my machine as light and as small as possible for tactical reasons. That means doing away with useless features.

Originally Posted by NeonZ

Faster they are. But I don't know about agility...

Think like this. The helo moves in 3D space. The gound-based unit in 2D space.

Originally Posted by NeonZ

Huh... The argument is that those projectiles would lack speed, and thus, wouldn't have range and power. If they have power, they must have range.

Wasn't the Zaku from MS Igloo using rapid fire? Using the sniping option, the shot would have even more speed.

I fail to see how the same ammo with the same charge fired from the same weapon can have different muzzle velocities. Fairy tale physics

And firing a solid projectile in zero-g vacuum is different from on 1-g Earth surface

[SWPIGWANG]

For reference, a modern day, current generation jet fighter all have >1G acceleration in "clean" configurations, and 9G turning acceleration. It makes a Zaku rightfully look like a slowpoke. Modern airdefenses is expected to engage such targets with out too much problems.

and note that Zaku armor can be penetrated by "60mm" vulcan.

The crazy dodging we see in Gundam is just absurdity.... Human reflexes is around .25 seconds (unless you are newtype), which translates to ~400meters of shell travel time before humans can respond. And thing fired within 400m can not be dodge.

[NeonZ]

To say whatever is in the show is canon, this debate is pointless. But realistically speaking, Mobile Suits are near useless on the modern battelfield.

Of course, but this debate is about the Zaku against the Magella, not about a real tank against a theoretical human shaped war machine.

Because I want my machine as light and as small as possible for tactical reasons. That means doing away with useless features.

But the verniers aren't useless. A MS with AMBAC and vernies has more mobility than one with only a few thrusters and relying on AMBAC for everything else.

Let's not forget that moving using AMBAC will mess with the MS's aim much more than using thrusters.

Think like this. The helo moves in 3D space. The gound-based unit in 2D space.

Huh... the Zaku can jump, and sustain it for a few seconds. The problem with an helicopter is that its maneuvers are limited to keep its stability, Mobile Suits, as presented in the Gundam series, seem to have much more flexible movements.

I fail to see how the same ammo with the same charge fired from the same weapon can have different muzzle velocities. Fairy tale physics

Well, it somehow seems to have a mode switching feature, according to an official document, and that does seem to be backed up by the animation, which shows the Zaku clearly firing in different speeds.

Of course, it doesn't explain how that mode switching actually works...

And firing a solid projectile in zero-g vacuum is different from on 1-g Earth surface

That shows mostly in long range combat.

The crazy dodging we see in Gundam is just absurdity.... Human reflexes is around .25 seconds (unless you are newtype), which translates to ~400meters of shell travel time before humans can respond. And thing fired within 400m can not be dodge.

I think that most "dodge" shown by Gundam isn't supposed to be real dodge(as in, the suit moving faster than the bullet can travel), but just the attacker failing to adjust his aim to match the movement of the enemy's mobile suit.

Of course, that doesn't make much sense considering some scenes which show the pilot only getting aware of the attack after it's actually done. In SEED Destiny, they even created that ridiculous emergency light used even in close combat.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by NeonZ

One quick turn might not be much, but a Zaku won't turn only once during a battle.

Now you're being silly. What part of "maximum of 1s of burn-time" do you not understand?

Originally Posted by NeonZ

Huh... The show itself and the official information agree on that detail. The only thing which doesn't agree with it is your personal theory, which can't possibly be right considering the shown effectiveness of the Zaku's weapon.

It's not a theory, it's a question of physics - a powerful gun will produce a large amount of recoil. The shows themselves show a very low recoil. Unless you can reconcile the dichotomy, it stands to reason that the 120mm has a low muzzle-velocity.

In the show itself, the gun cannot have a very long range because it's got a low muzzle-velocity. It's rather obvious that is not, and cannot be simply an upsized version of an existing weapon (Zeon designers aren't quite that stupid). Also, the disadvantage itself is rather self-evident - it's too feeble to damage the Gundam! A superior weapon would not have that difficulty.

Originally Posted by NeonZ

I'm not making up anything. That official document is the one which talked about the mode switching rifle. It also follows the animation, which showed a few times the Zaku's weapons with a slower paced firing, usually employig explosive shells, and other times showed it aiming from distant positions.

Sources please.

Originally Posted by NeonZ

Huh... That's a stupid comparison... A person doesn't have various thrusters spread around his body... nor is the tank's main weapon comparable to someone holding a handheld weapon.

Of course it's a silly comparison, a person actually has a much higher chance of dodging a bullet because a real tank gun has a far higher muzzle velocity than any handheld weapon. I was just trying to show how absurd your argument of dodging tank fire was.

Originally Posted by NeonZ

The Gundam's acceleration is 0.93 G, that isn't much better than a Zaku. Yet, it dodged not only solid objects, but much faster Minovsky Particle based beams(even before Amuro actually developed his NT powers). If the Gundam can dodge beams, the Zaku can dodge gunfire.

Ah, I see you're trying to introduce numbers into your argument. However, you're forgetting that there's two possible explanations for the dodging phenomenon. It can be either a case of the mobile suit being fast enough relative to weapon speed to actually dodge the shot, or it's bad shooting on the part of the attacker. Which explanation are you trying to use?

Originally Posted by NeonZ

It is inconceivable in the case of the Magella, specially considering that it was a space battleship, which the Federation used for actual combat. It'd need increased armor just to be part of that battlefield.

You still haven't shown how strong battleship armor is.

Originally Posted by NeonZ

Not in my fantasy world, in the Universal Century. And it wouldn't "miss" anything. The Zaku would be simply out of the range of its sensors, but it'd be able to see the Magella perfectly well thanks to its own superior sensors and its position.

You've got to be kidding. A Zaku II is four times the target profile of a double-decker bus! Sensor range!? Why would you need sensors to see it? The Zaku II has a sensor range of only 3200m. Are you really trying to say that it would be possible to somehow miss seeing something so freaking huge from within this distance!? Heck, even a half-blind mule would be able to see it.

Originally Posted by NeonZ

The Zaku's fire will penetrate. The only target which showed enough armor to be hit by a Machine Gun without being pierced was the Gundam, thanks to its Lunar Titanium. That's a fact.

You're making the rather ridiculous assumption that a weapon that can penetrate at 100m can do the same thing at 3km. Do some math, and try to figure out whether that's really the case or not.

Originally Posted by NeonZ

Also, about the armor... How do you know anything about the Magella's armor? The Zaku uses "Steel", though that doesn't say much, considering how it's only a generic name for different alloys based on iron and carbon. One of those official files also stated that the Zeon weren't good at making composite alloys, and that was one of the main advances done to the Zeon designs after the Federation got their technology. Considering that, the alloy used on the magella can't be significantly better.

I don't have to know anything about a Magella's armor. I know that a Zaku II's frontal target profile is greater than 100m^2. Even if it has 1/2 of its entire mass to frontal arc steel armor, it will only have about 40mm of armor protection. Only a moronic tank designer would have build an MBT with less armor protection than that. The Magella sort of takes this one by default.

Originally Posted by NeonZ

The Type-61 seems to be much more like a conventional tank.

If you think that the Type-61 is a conventional tank design, then it's rather obvious that you don't know anything about armored warfare. You may want to read up on it before continuing this debate.

Originally Posted by reinloch

Looking for an analogy in today's technology, I see only field guns which are for hitting static targets. For killing fast moving, highly agile targets from far away, I will put my money on a guided missile.

Modern tanks are designed to hit enemy targets at 4+ kilometer range. The Russians will agree with you, as they uses tube-launched guided missiles to engage targets at that kind of range. Western-style tanks rely on the sheer velocity of their guns and the precision of their optics instead.

Originally Posted by SWPIGWANG

and note that Zaku armor can be penetrated by "60mm" vulcan.

This sort of makes sense since Zaku II armor is about 40mm of RHA at best.

Originally Posted by SWPIGWANG

The crazy dodging we see in Gundam is just absurdity.... Human reflexes is around .25 seconds (unless you are newtype), which translates to ~400meters of shell travel time before humans can respond. And thing fired within 400m can not be dodge.

Yet more evidence to suggest extremely low propagation rates for UC weaponry.

[fizzmaister]

arrrrgh!!!! My post was lost! and it was a great explanation of how physical weapons would act in space and on earth plus the dropping bullet experiment. Also as a bonus I added why any smart captain would depressurize a battleship prior to a battle and how a battleships armor could be lighter than a tanks.

ok I have a little bit of time so here is the short recap.

In spce range doesn't matter power wise unless you are close to the earth and shooting away. also, you'll lose accuracy if you're close to the earth on earth range depends on muzzle velocity and firing angle. if you shoot a bullet horizontally it will hit the ground at the same time as a dropped bullet (error only by earth curvature.) Resources are hard to get in space so battleships might have thin armor. any smart captain will depressurize a space battleship prior to a battle. got to go