What Gundam shows count as war anime? [All shows]

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by avmoghe

Actually, I forgot to mention one additional Gundam entry that comes close to "war anime" category - MS Igloo.

I didn't really count MS Igloo since it's a bunch of OVAs. It's also not the first thing that springs to mind when one thinks of Gundam shows. Still, I've only seen a very small part of it - what qualifies it as war anime?
So far, I've seen the first episode, and I hated it. I saw a clip of the second episode, and I hated that as well. What are the merits of the other episodes?


Off-topic:

Originally Posted by Crusader

Haman was only one newtype, but her not sensing Char is more in the hands of the writers, but thats another subject.

Actually, I'd say that this is the exact same subject. Newtype powers are very effective when it's convenient for the writer, but weak at other times - also when it's convenient for the writer. It's a very handy storytelling tool, but it's not so hot for a discriminating audience. Camille's magical forcefield just takes the cake for silliness.

Originally Posted by avmoghe

Not impressive or reliable? How many times did Kamille dodge danger (not just danger to himself, but others as well) due to being warned off by his newtype sense? The entire climax and resolution of Zeta Gundam is one giant orgy of fancy newtype powers - mentally controlling funnels, telepathy, dragonball-Z type psychic "auras", frying people's minds, using ghosts to attack and completely disable someone's mobile suit, creating impenetrable newtype-power shields, etc

I don't really want to get into too much detail here since this is pretty far off-topic, but I have a couple of reasons for calling the display of newtype powers "not that impressive" (Ick, I really screwed up the grammar in that earlier post. ). The first is the question of reliability - newtype powers sort of manifest themselves very whimsically, with little rhyme nor reason. Next, most of them can be replicated using high-tech equipment. And finally, they are generally less effective than their proponents would have you believe. Then, there's Camille's magical forcefield, but I'd sooner characterize it as "dumb".

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

I have never watched a UC serie before, so I don't know what a UC newtype can do or what it really is, but it sounds like a even bigger bull$hit then the SEED factor...

UC newtypes have all sorts of funky psychic powers, from minor precognition to psychokinesis. Whether you'd like it or not is mostly going to depend on your tastes.

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

and btw, I wonder...what's the difference between UC newtyps and CE newtyps?

Not much is known about what Cosmic Era newtypes can do, but UC newtypes seem to have more varied powers.

[avmoghe]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I didn't really count MS Igloo since it's a bunch of OVAs. It's also not the first thing that springs to mind when one thinks of Gundam shows. Still, I've only seen a very small part of it - what qualifies it as war anime?
So far, I've seen the first episode, and I hated it. I saw a clip of the second episode, and I hated that as well. What are the merits of the other episodes?

What you hated is completely irrelevant here. Nobody cares what whether you or I *liked* the show as far as this thread is concerned. What matters is that it actually felt far more down to earth than many other gundam shows - no idiotic kids running around, no flashy gundams, no soap opera - basically everything that keeps Gundam a "robot" anime. It actually felt like a real military operation. Unfortunately, the episodes were too short to actually qualify as a real meaningful story. If they actually made it into a longer anime, we may have had our first gundam "war" anime.

I don't really want to get into too much detail here since this is pretty far off-topic, but I have a couple of reasons for calling the display of newtype powers "not that impressive" (Ick, I really screwed up the grammar in that earlier post. ). The first is the question of reliability - newtype powers sort of manifest themselves very whimsically, with little rhyme nor reason. Next, most of them can be replicated using high-tech equipment. And finally, they are generally less effective than their proponents would have you believe. Then, there's Camille's magical forcefield, but I'd sooner characterize it as "dumb".

What exactly are you talking about? The newtype powers are generally extremely reliable as far as saving the main character's life goes. As I mentioned, see how many times the newtype flash saves Kamille. Whether they are present without rhyme or reason is irrelevant - they are reliable enough to kick in when danger lurks - that's all that matters.
And no, high tech equipment does not replicate ghosts, psyshic auras, brain frying ability. I have no idea where you got this from.
Again, you seem to be confusing the issue here - nobody cares whether you think the abilities are dumb, or whether you like certain aspect of the shows. What is of significance here is that the newtype abilities were very impressive (in terms of power) to the point of rendering him invincible , and reliable enough to kick in every time they were really needed for his survival (and sometimes even for others, since Kamille can apparently sense danger from remote bombs).

I have no idea where you got the impression that Newtype abilities such as brain frying by being next to an enemy, impenetrable shields, psychic auras, or borrowing ghost power could be replicated by simple machinery. I suspect that you may need to rewatch the show to refresh your memories.

[Honey_and_Cleaver]

Yeah, gundam lacks the one thing most, zooming into the lives of the civilians who are suffering from the war.

Gundam Wing zoomed more into the civilian lives, but Gundam Seed Destiny didint.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by avmoghe

What you hated is completely irrelevant here. Nobody cares what whether you or I *liked* the show as far as this thread is concerned.

Quite correct. That wasn't an argument on my part, I was just expressing my feelings on the episode I did watch. The first part of my statement is more pertinent to this thread.

Originally Posted by avmoghe

What matters is that it actually felt far more down to earth than many other gundam shows - no idiotic kids running around, no flashy gundams, no soap opera - basically everything that keeps Gundam a "robot" anime. It actually felt like a real military operation. Unfortunately, the episodes were too short to actually qualify as a real meaningful story. If they actually made it into a longer anime, we may have had our first gundam "war" anime.

I've only seen the first episode, so in what way did it feel like a real military operation? Just because it didn't have the sillier elements that some Gundam shows have doesn't automatically mean that it's a war anime. Also, substituting flashy Gundams for flashy "super" weapons isn't much of an improvement.

The element that seems to qualify MS Igloo is the fact that the episodes take place during the One Year War, which is already a well-established conflict.


Off-topic:

Originally Posted by avmoghe

What exactly are you talking about? The newtype powers are generally extremely reliable as far as saving the main character's life goes. As I mentioned, see how many times the newtype flash saves Kamille. Whether they are present without rhyme or reason is irrelevant - they are reliable enough to kick in when danger lurks - that's all that matters.

That's part of my point. It may work to conveniently save the protagonist time after time, but it functions as little more than a fancy proximity indicator.

Originally Posted by avmoghe

I have no idea where you got the impression that Newtype abilities such as brain frying by being next to an enemy, impenetrable shields, psychic auras, or borrowing ghost power could be replicated by simple machinery. I suspect that you may need to rewatch the show to refresh your memories.

I'd classify both the ghost thing, the brain frying thing and even the power drain thing as unimpressive to begin with. The forcefield is rather more so, but it's limits aren't particularly well defined, and their effect doesn't seem that dissimilar from an I-field.

I admit that my comment about the forcefield being dumb isn't particularly relevant.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by 4tran

I'd classify both the ghost thing, the brain frying thing and even the power drain thing as unimpressive to begin with. The forcefield is rather more so, but it's limits aren't particularly well defined, and their effect doesn't seem that dissimilar from an I-field.

Boy you're like a child...Must every micro-detail be explained to you? Do you have any imagination or wonder? Besides the point I know, pfft...Oh because they're unimpressive to you then your point about machines replicating these powers are valid? Your a piece of work dude, avmoghe has a love for Zeta like myself and I know he's sarcastically laffing on the other side of the cpu with your lack of knowledge when it comes to this show...

As for MS Igloo he's clearly talking about mood and atmosphere condusive to the feeling of a more strict war-setting...Oh because you hated Igloo ep 1 it doesn't count to be examined? What kind of logic is that? Your trying to out-argue someone who has seen what you haven't...Jesus, for the entirety of this thread poster after poster has conceded that Gundam on the whole isn't really representative of "war-anime" in the obtuse terms you have applied...So now you just wanna rape the next layer of it's content by taking the many aspects that make Gundam Gundam and trivialize that aswell? (i.e. The ghost thing, brain fry thing) Gundam is not for you, don't you realize that by now?

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

As for MS Igloo he's clearly talking about mood and atmosphere condusive to the feeling of a more strict war-setting...Oh because you hated Igloo ep 1 it doesn't count to be examined? What kind of logic is that? Your trying to out-argue someone who has seen what you haven't...

In case you haven't noticed, I wasn't really challenging avmoghe's point that MS Igloo counts as war anime. I merely pointed out that he hadn't shown any significant proof that it was so. In fact, it's because I didn't like what I saw of MS Igloo that I don't really trust my initial impressions it. Hence, I've witheld my opinion on whether it should qualify or not. And, as I stated earlier, the fact that the episodes take place during the One Year War would make it more likely that they do. Earlier, I asked you to read more carefully before replying; it's a shame that you chose to disregard that.


Off-topic:

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Besides the point I know, pfft...Oh because they're unimpressive to you then your point about machines replicating these powers are valid?

They were unimpressive to me because they don't represent much of a combat advantage.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Your a piece of work dude, avmoghe has a love for Zeta like myself and I know he's sarcastically laffing on the other side of the cpu with your lack of knowledge when it comes to this show...

I like Zeta as well, so I don't see what you're trying to get at.

[avmoghe]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Your a piece of work dude, avmoghe has a love for Zeta like myself and I know he's sarcastically laffing on the other side of the cpu with your lack of knowledge when it comes to this show...

At the expense of prolonging this off topic discussion, I feel I must clarify this misunderstanding. I have absolutely no "love" for Zeta Gundam - I classify it as a very mediocre series. The only Gundam series which I do not classify as mediocre or worse are Gundam Seed (one of my all-time favorite series), and the MSG movies (which I classify as being "very good"). The rest of the Gundam franchise is either mediocre or worse to me.

I won't continue since I think I've said everything I've needed to say.

[Crusader]

Originally Posted by Honey_and_Cleaver

Yeah, gundam lacks the one thing most, zooming into the lives of the civilians who are suffering from the war.

Gundam Wing zoomed more into the civilian lives, but Gundam Seed Destiny didn't.

Yes, you're right, Wing and the Seed series did give a glimpse into civilians life, which is severly lacking in UC. In most cases we only hear the military's view on subjects, but never the people. The people's thoughts were given in narration and nothing more.

Wing did it more than any other series, but the Seed series did it slightly. This is partially why i enjoy Wing a lot more than some of the other series.

most of what Zeta showed was fighting, and some planning. That alone doesn't make much for war. Even if a lot of people died.

[PowerBarEX]

Apologies for the long absence, unfortunately i didn't have alot of time to reply these past weeks. Work and watching Gundam ZZ like a marathon doesn't leave time for much else...

QFT...

I have no idea what that means wingdarkness, but if you're saying Gundam's sci-fi elements prevent it from being a war-anime, how's that so? 4tran already has said that realism isn't necessary for something to be considered 'war anime'. Moghe has called it a soap opera HAPHAZARDLY thrown into a war background, which I think 4tran is also implying. Others can call it a war drama, but you can't minimize the significance that the war or conflict plays into everything. And, if it was so haphazard, then why was it so successful? I guess I'm trying to say the 'war' part plays too much into the premise of the entire series for it not to be considered a war-anime.

Anyway, i'm tired of picking at 4tran's argument. Obviously 4Tran and my definition of war-anime aren't the same. I just find it humourous that everytime I bring up a specific detail in the anime to backup my argument, 4Tran just shifts his definition around so I have to provide more examples.

I know he's sarcastically laffing on the other side of the cpu with your lack of knowledge when it comes to this show...

I found that comment by wingdarkness interesting. Have you really watched the show 4tran? Or maybe you've watched it ages ago and forgot the details? Because we've been going through this argument for a while and I don't think you have ever come up with any hard reference to the series. I can understand if you've forgotten most of the details of the series by now, I can't remember Wing entirely, but I'd almost swear there was more civilian contact in Zeta than Wing, heck most of Zeta's crew were civilians in the first place. All the guys in Wing are trained soldiers. I think alot of people have just forgotten many of the more relatively minor story arcs in the series.

In most cases we only hear the military's view on subjects, but never the people. The people's thoughts were given in narration and nothing more.

That's not true, first of all, the protagonists in all the UC gundam series ALWAYS start off as civilians. Then, there are several story arcs in each series which show the civilians interacting with the main characters in one way or another. In ZZ, you had the guys in Dakar and the colony that resembled HK, that's not even mentioning the whole first story arc which had the Zeons trying to win the favor of the civilians in the colony.

A strong majority of the battles in zeta, seemingly consist of lets go shoot the enemy until it's time to retreat, which made it boring, i can barely stand most of the battles in that series, except for a few. Especially when jerid and co had thier limelight. with newtypes that can sense thier enemies every move, and overcome them with thier special powers.

Whats so "real world" about Zeta?

What do you want from a battle in Gundam then? I mean, in a battle, you shoot and if you can't win, logic says you run. I think that's just part of the realism. I mean, if you want some ultra super heroics, then you can watch the CE series where the Gundams can perform tricks like shooting lasers out of every nut and bolt in its body. About Jerid, you can't forget, he has his ass saved by his comrades multiple times and alot of characters died in between their skirmishes. IMO the intensity increased each time they faced in battle.

What's so real world about Zeta? Lets see, just about everything is based on real concepts. You bring up Seed and Wing, I think comparing these two series to the UC ones will highlight the realism that UC brings. Besides the newtype fireworks at the end of each series, the Gundams aren't excessively or unrealistically overpowering. And Zeta, unlike MSG, had a protagonist that also had his butt saved numerous times by his own comrades, unlike Amuro. Those are just a few examples. But I mean besides all this talk of galactic heroes (which I've yet to watch), what and how many other series can you say is more of a war-anime than Gundam?

[wingdarkness]

^LMMFAO...

QFT = Quoted for TRUTH

Oh BTW LMMFAO = Laffin My Mutha F_ckin A$$ Off^^...

[PowerBarEX]

dammit wingdarkness...now i'm just feeling hella old...

[Amuro_Rei]

Originally Posted by avmoghe

At the expense of prolonging this off topic discussion, I feel I must clarify this misunderstanding. I have absolutely no "love" for Zeta Gundam - I classify it as a very mediocre series. The only Gundam series which I do not classify as mediocre or worse are Gundam Seed (one of my all-time favorite series), and the MSG movies (which I classify as being "very good"). The rest of the Gundam franchise is either mediocre or worse to me.

I won't continue since I think I've said everything I've needed to say.

Have you even failed to consider how realistic war really is? I think you have even failed to grasp the true meaning of war.

The U.C. Gundam series are the most realistic ones when it comes to MS specs, war and morality. Tomino really put a lot of effort in keeping the focus of the show into the characters' thoughts and principles which made the show and intense war drama. Tomino showed that war really has no sides and that each side would end up in the worst way possible.

War is not just about big guns, cool tricks, and skillful men and women; it's all about how people strive in just staying alive. U.C. Gundam series showed a lot of this and this is all true. Many people try to stay away from the conflict, do stupid things just for something, and in fact support even the most drastic of all measures.

And when it comes to viewing civilian views about the wars, U.C. is the closest thing you get in making it real.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

I just find it humourous that everytime I bring up a specific detail in the anime to backup my argument, 4Tran just shifts his definition around so I have to provide more examples.

Please point out where I've been shifting my definitions. I've always maintained that a war show has to either tackle the scope of the conflict, or generate a sense of immediacy. Heck, have you even stated what your definitions are?

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Have you really watched the show 4tran?

Yes. I've pointed out various specific issues I've had with Zeta - do I need to spell them out for you again?

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

What do you want from a battle in Gundam then?

It would be nice if the battles in Zeta (and many other shows) didn't feel so much as a perequisite on a per-episode basis. A lot of them felt superfluous, and I felt that they often detracted from the narrative.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

What's so real world about Zeta? Lets see, just about everything is based on real concepts.

That doesn't make for a very convincing argument.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

But I mean besides all this talk of galactic heroes (which I've yet to watch), what and how many other series can you say is more of a war-anime than Gundam?

Admittedly, there aren't all that many. Aside from the aforementioned shows, you can add shows like Zipang (both), SDF Macross (both), Utawarerumono (scope only) and Now and Then (immediacy), Here and There. I'd say that shows like Gunparade March, Simoun, and Full Metal Panic are on the bubble.

Originally Posted by Amuro_Rei

Have you even failed to consider how realistic war really is? I think you have even failed to grasp the true meaning of war.

I'm not sure about that. I just think that avmoghe has a stricter definition of it than you may.

Originally Posted by Amuro_Rei

The U.C. Gundam series are the most realistic ones when it comes to MS specs, war and morality.

These are totally different things. Only the relative realism of the portrayal of war is relevant to this topic.

Originally Posted by Amuro_Rei

Tomino really put a lot of effort in keeping the focus of the show into the characters' thoughts and principles which made the show and intense war drama.

The part about trying to show the characters' thoughts is true, but I don't think that they really contribute that much to making their respective shows that much more intense. In particular, I find how Camille keeps on say "This is what war is." ironic, since Zeta downplays the principles of warfare and the feel of a military at every turn.

Originally Posted by Amuro_Rei

War is not just about big guns, cool tricks, and skillful men and women; it's all about how people strive in just staying alive. U.C. Gundam series showed a lot of this and this is all true. Many people try to stay away from the conflict, do stupid things just for something, and in fact support even the most drastic of all measures.

Most of Gundam isn't all that great at creating a feel of immediacy.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by 4tran

The part about trying to show the characters' thoughts is true, but I don't think that they really contribute that much to making their respective shows that much more intense. In particular, I find how Camille keeps on say "This is what war is." ironic, since Zeta downplays the principles of warfare and the feel of a military at every turn.

For the gazillionth time, Cammille (who is a troubled kid, and not really of any mature mindset at the time) is referring to the atmosphere and cold-nature of war, not some precise set of cadet standards that would be understood by the likes of a Dearka or Athrun (if an example had to be given)...You seem to be far more superfluous in your attempts to garner strict military principles from what is essentially a soap-opera//space-drama themed to realistic mecha...

[4Tran]

wingdarkness, you don't seem to grasp the concept of irony. Zeta's depiction of the "atmosphere" of war is wrong, hence any such statements referring to it as a reflection of what it's like is contradictory. Since what Camille says about war is completely wrong, so the implication is that either he has no idea what it's like (despite supposedly fighting in one), or that the creators don't. By the way, if you define Zeta as "essentially a soap-opera//space-drama themed to realistic mecha...", then you seem to agree that it shouldn't count as a war anime.

[PowerBarEX]

Please point out where I've been shifting my definitions.

These are totally different things. Only the relative realism of the portrayal of war is relevant to this topic.

How about that one? Amuro clearly states that UC portrays WAR in a realistic manner which IS relevant to the topic along with MS Specs and morality, and yet, its as if you'd ignored the line that you quoted yourself.

Yes. I've pointed out various specific issues I've had with Zeta

It would be nice if the battles in Zeta (and many other shows) didn't feel so much as a perequisite on a per-episode basis. A lot of them felt superfluous, and I felt that they often detracted from the narrative.

Only the relative realism of the portrayal of war is relevant to this topic.

Zeta downplays the principles of warfare and the feel of a military at every turn.

Most of Gundam isn't all that great at creating a feel of immediacy.

See, these examples of your 'specific issues' is what i'm talking about. You can easily replace Zeta or Gundam with any other movie/anime/novel and the sentence could still hold 'true'. If you're specific issues were say, if Camille wasn't such an idiot and did X,Y,Z instead of A,B and C, then i think we'd be getting somewhere.

That doesn't make for a very convincing argument.

That's because you either ignored or did not see the rest of the paragraph that follows that line.

I find how Camille keeps on say "This is what war is." ironic

When does he say that? The whole thing about Camille was that his motivation changed because he could feel the pain and suffering of other people. It was this aspect of him as a teenage newtype that made his character and intentions in the war more acceptable and plausible. He repeatedly keeps on mentioning how he can feel the pain and suffering from the fighting but I don't ever recall him specifically saying 'this is what war is'.

Heck, have you even stated what your definitions are?

I'm just trying to meet the requirements using YOUR definitions. Like I said, everytime I come up with example A,B,C, you say 'well not good enough, it's gotta meet X,Y,and Z' and so on. Perhaps if you provided examples of how you'd change specific scenes or details WITHIN the anime itself, I'd have a better idea (and I don't mean the 'someone's gotta mention how where the other fleet is' kinda thing).

And Full Metal Panic? Isn't that just totally contradictory to ALL your definitions of a war-anime? Or maybe you're referring to the manga because i've only seen the anime.

My definition, while it may be off topic, are simply that it has to portray war in a realistic/believable manner. This is what separates UC Gundam from most of its AU, specifically CE counterparts. Because while UC is based on plausible concepts (legrange points, minovsky particles, designs for space colonies) and the majority of the plot and motivations for each character is fully fleshed out, the CE is basically a super robot anime in a very superficial/shallow Gundam setting.

Anyway, I don't think continuing this line of questioning is getting us anywhere. It's clear IMO that your standards for the stated requirements are infinitely and perhaps impossibly greater than my standards for those requirements. I can't find F91, so I'm gonna watch Victory and then try and get myself some Galactic Heroes.

The U.C. Gundam series are the most realistic ones when it comes to MS specs, war and morality. Tomino really put a lot of effort in keeping the focus of the show into the characters' thoughts and principles which made the show and intense war drama. Tomino showed that war really has no sides and that each side would end up in the worst way possible.

I totally agree with your post. As wingdarkness would say...QFT...lol

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

wingdarkness, you don't seem to grasp the concept of irony. What Camille says about war is completely wrong, so the implication is that either he has no idea what it's like (despite supposedly fighting in one), or that the creators don't. By the way, if you define Zeta as "essentially a soap-opera//space-drama themed to realistic mecha...", then you seem to agree that it shouldn't count as a war anime.

Do you read??

Originally Posted by wingWTFness

Jesus, for the entirety of this thread poster after poster has conceded that Gundam on the whole isn't really representative of "war-anime" in the obtuse terms you have applied...

However in acute terms Zeta Gundam supplies so many great battle moments and impromtu displays of tactical prowess...However it doesn't seem to matter how many times you hear this from the Zeta camp...

As for Cammille how in God's name can you assess what's completely wrong? Have you ever been in a mobile suit battle? "Is this what war is?" This is the question asked by a kid seeing unbridled blood on the battlefield...Who is forced to kill and struggles with the areas of grey when it comes to the choice of killing and protecting (Many instances having to kill those he has feelings toward) Do you incorporate any sense of humanity into your equations? Boy such arrogance thinking you actually know how to incorporate a strategy for for creating a genre defining anime morso than those who did so? Remember the realistic mecha genre exists...Your Macro-Military SOOOPA war documentary strategic strategem genre hasn't seen much light if I'm being frank...There's a reason for that...

Awaits your next post of bloviation to match my own...

[Crusader]

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

I found that comment by wingdarkness interesting. Have you really watched the show 4tran? Or maybe you've watched it ages ago and forgot the details? Because we've been going through this argument for a while and I don't think you have ever come up with any hard reference to the series. I can understand if you've forgotten most of the details of the series by now, I can't remember Wing entirely, but I'd almost swear there was more civilian contact in Zeta than Wing, heck most of Zeta's crew were civilians in the first place. All the guys in Wing are trained soldiers. I think alot of people have just forgotten many of the more relatively minor story arcs in the series.

Wing is the series where every single faceless character had a monologue about thier philosophy of war. (slight exaggeration) But the majority of the civilians were able to express thier opinions on the war. A lot of the episodes have that especially in the middle area of the show. I seems to recall the wing boys encoutering various civillians who had opinions on the war.

Are you sure that the Zeta crew were civilians? Most if not all joined the AEUG at some point or another. I'll have to go check to verify that for sure.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

That's not true, first of all, the protagonists in all the UC gundam series ALWAYS start off as civilians. Then, there are several story arcs in each series which show the civilians interacting with the main characters in one way or another. In ZZ, you had the guys in Dakar and the colony that resembled HK, that's not even mentioning the whole first story arc which had the Zeons trying to win the favor of the civilians in the colony.

ZZ you're right, I'll give you credit for that one.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

What do you want from a battle in Gundam then? I mean, in a battle, you shoot and if you can't win, logic says you run. I think that's just part of the realism. I mean, if you want some ultra super heroics, then you can watch the CE series where the Gundams can perform tricks like shooting lasers out of every nut and bolt in its body. About Jerid, you can't forget, he has his ass saved by his comrades multiple times and alot of characters died in between their skirmishes. IMO the intensity increased each time they faced in battle.

Yes you're right, but the battles weren't entertaining. They seemed more like an after thought. It almost seemed more like it was a game. the whole feeling that your life is on the line didn't seem to be there. That's just my opinion. I guess wing spoiled me with all those pilots vaporizing lol.

ZZ i didn't have problems with any of the battles, or MSG for that matter.

I had the same problem with Victory, but even then those battles had thier great moments.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

What's so real world about Zeta? Lets see, just about everything is based on real concepts. You bring up Seed and Wing, I think comparing these two series to the UC ones will highlight the realism that UC brings. Besides the newtype fireworks at the end of each series, the Gundams aren't excessively or unrealistically overpowering. And Zeta, unlike MSG, had a protagonist that also had his butt saved numerous times by his own comrades, unlike Amuro. Those are just a few examples.

Hmm i hardly recall Amuros gundam suffering much damage, except when he fought that underwater ma, but even then the damged worked in his favor. Of course the gundam was destroyed in the final battle.

Zeta gundam i don't recall suffered much damage, but i'll go marathon the series to be sure.

ZZ gundam didn't suffer much damage, except at the end of the show. the most damage i think that was inflicted is when judau fought with rakan for the first time.
MKII and Hyakushi were damaged on diffrent occasions, but even then none of those were the main characters unit.

F91 didn't suffer much damage, but that was a movie.

Victory gundam was trashed dozens of times, but they always seemed to have spare parts for it, and it's parts were destroyed on several occasions, and replaced in the same ep.

you have failed to point out anything realistic about zeta. The politics weren't all there. Titans hunting Zeeks, latter trying to ally with them, even though they were suppose to be hunting them. Not to mention the whole premise of the AEUG and how it was started doesn't fit either.

Char's speech to dakar is utter garbage, you would think he would have been arrested for war crimes from the first war. I mean he was one of the biggest aces of the oyw, but nothing happens and i don't see many goverments just letting someone like him walk away scott free.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Crusader

Yes you're right, but the battles weren't entertaining. They seemed more like an after thought. It almost seemed more like it was a game. the whole feeling that your life is on the line didn't seem to be there. That's just my opinion. I guess wing spoiled me with all those pilots vaporizing lol

I mean obviously that's gonna be subjective...I saw Wing before I saw Zeta and I enjoyed Zeta more for the nuaince of it's battles...The kid in me loved Wing for it's high-paced, high energy, high color explosion fest, but the adult in me loved Zeta for it's intimate approach to certain battles...Going into the minds of it's pilots, being unforgivable in it's theme of death associated with the horror that is war, being unglorifying in that theme (which is why I suspect you viewed it more like a game)...I've said it once if I've said it a thousand times, but Zeta tells you clearly that in this battle of mecha on the war-field, "If you f_ck up you die..." Period, end of sentence...It's the only G-series that looks at war in those purist of terms (Victory Gundam while being as if not more brutal is different from Zeta because it DID glorify death)...There is no margin for error, no Malchio the wizards saving you from a blown up STRIKE...Simply the coldness of space, sprinkled with moments to appreciate and people to love if by the grace of God you were able to live one more day...

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

How about that one? Amuro clearly states that UC portrays WAR in a realistic manner which IS relevant to the topic along with MS Specs and morality, and yet, its as if you'd ignored the line that you quoted yourself.

You misread my statement. I both pointed out that the things that Amuro_Rei said were different, and agreed with him that the relative realism is relevant. However, it was just a claim, not an argument; hence I didn't feel the need to address it. Also note that I did address his points further down.

Moreover, even if your accusation were true, it's still not an example of shifting definitions.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

See, these examples of your 'specific issues' is what i'm talking about. You can easily replace Zeta or Gundam with any other movie/anime/novel and the sentence could still hold 'true'. If you're specific issues were say, if Camille wasn't such an idiot and did X,Y,Z instead of A,B and C, then i think we'd be getting somewhere.

So I guess I have to list them again:

"But why would Haman betray AEUG?"
"I thought that Char's speech was pure drivel, and the Titans' response to it was moronic"
"AEUG is short handed, but why?"
"my question is how many Titans are left outside of the final battle"
...and so on. Are these specific enough for you? I'm not even sure why you're digging up the points I made in the previous post, especially since they're explicitly not what I was referring to as the "specific issues". (Heck, two of them weren't even referring to Zeta; they were about Gundam in general.)

As a side note, I'm usually less critical of characters doing boneheaded things - characters are (usually) human, and they're entitled to making mistakes. I'm only riled up about it if they were presented as competent.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

That's because you either ignored or did not see the rest of the paragraph that follows that line.

I ignored them because your arguments do not logically lead to your conclusion:

"You bring up Seed and Wing, I think comparing these two series to the UC ones will highlight the realism that UC brings." - at best, you can show that Seed and Wing are unrealistic.

"Besides the newtype fireworks at the end of each series, the Gundams aren't excessively or unrealistically overpowering." - doesn't show how everything in Zeta is based on real concepts.

"And Zeta, unlike MSG, had a protagonist that also had his butt saved numerous times by his own comrades, unlike Amuro." - at best, you can show that Mobile Suit Gundam is less realistic.

"Those are just a few examples. But I mean besides all this talk of galactic heroes (which I've yet to watch), what and how many other series can you say is more of a war-anime than Gundam?" - doesn't relate to your point.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

When does he say that?

Camille said that kind of thing all the time, mostly in combat. wingdarkness seemed to remember it.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

I'm just trying to meet the requirements using YOUR definitions. Like I said, everytime I come up with example A,B,C, you say 'well not good enough, it's gotta meet X,Y,and Z' and so on. Perhaps if you provided examples of how you'd change specific scenes or details WITHIN the anime itself, I'd have a better idea (and I don't mean the 'someone's gotta mention how where the other fleet is' kinda thing).

My original requirements were that a war anime had to either show either the scope of the war or it had to generate the immediacy of it. So far, you haven't established any of your claims in either regard.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

And Full Metal Panic? Isn't that just totally contradictory to ALL your definitions of a war-anime?

You're quite correct. Full Metal Panic has a lot of elements that I wouldn't associate with war anime, and I wouldn't really categorize it as one. On the other hand, it also has a lot of elements that are very relevant as well. Hence, I said that it's "on the bubble" - not necessarily more of a war anime than the Gundam shows (using Zeta as a reference), but worth mentioning.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Anyway, I don't think continuing this line of questioning is getting us anywhere. It's clear IMO that your standards for the stated requirements are infinitely and perhaps impossibly greater than my standards for those requirements. I can't find F91, so I'm gonna watch Victory and then try and get myself some Galactic Heroes.

I don't know about "impossibly greater" standards, since I already said that Mobile Suit Gundam qualifies. However, I've read a lot of military history, so what I consider realistic is likely to be very different from what you consider realistic. Case in point: I think of all melee combat to be automatically unrealistic. (And yes, Legend of Galactic Heroes fares badly in this regard.)

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

However in acute terms Zeta Gundam supplies so many great battle moments and impromtu displays of tactical prowess...

I didn't find the battles in Zeta very entertaining, nor do I think that they were great displays of tactics. In fact, I thought that the final battle, in particular, had many displays of tactical stupidity. It's the character interactions in Zeta that I found appealing, not any of the military stuff.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

As for Cammille how in God's name can you assess what's completely wrong? Have you ever been in a mobile suit battle? "Is this what war is?"

I always heard it as a statement of fact, not as a question.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

I've said it once if I've said it a thousand times, but Zeta tells you clearly that in this battle of mecha on the war-field, "If you f_ck up you die..." Period, end of sentence...It's the only G-series that looks at war in those purist of terms (Victory Gundam while being as if not more brutal is different from Zeta because it DID glorify death)...

I'm with Crusader here. I didn't get that kind of impression at all. For example, Jerid didn't really suffer from any of his screwups until the very end.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

There is no margin for error, no Malchio the wizards saving you from a blown up STRIKE...Simply the coldness of space, sprinkled with moments to appreciate and people to love if by the grace of God you were able to live one more day...

Well, there were those newtype ghosts, and Quattro's miraculous escape...