Tate no Yuusha/Shield Hero - Episode 4 Discussion / Poll

[Dengar]

I think people who claim that he was 'angrier' in the book is because the show seems to deliberately avoid most of the internal monologues. You know, to take a more 'show, don't tell' approach.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Sheba

To be fair to Shieldbro, the forced video games mechanics FORCES him with a weakass attack stat. No matter what he do, he'll hit as hard as a little girl. He'll have to rely on the abilities of the shield he unlocked and think outside the box.

Plus, y’know, unless he gains a skill for it later, he can’t throw his shield like Cap.
Which is a big part of what makes Cap’s fighting style so awesome.

*In Avengers Endgame*

Thanos: “Ha! I already beat you before!”
Cap: “Yeah, but this time I can throw my shield!”
Thanos: “OH SHI-”

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by Grifis

I shed some tears at the confession scene. Love conquers all. Well, I'm glad that main guy finally gets over his depression and starts enjoying food as well as realizing his aibou has grown into a fine young demi-woman.

I don't think you know what a confession is. That was just Raphtalia reassuring Naofumi that she was not going to leave him because she knows he isn't what the people make him out to be.

[Kinematics]

Detailed review of chapter 4, looking for hints and clues of stuff.


11 instrumentalists at the party, on the stairs. Probably not relevant.

Brown-haired bowl-cut assistant and grey-haired smirk assistant are both with the king, as usual.

A ton of nobles hanging around.

Something interesting: Only two party members out of all four parties are present: Raphtalia and Mein. The rest of Ren's, Itsuki's, and Motoyasu's parties are absent. Could just be animation laziness, but I'd be rather peeved at being left out of the festivities, if I were them.

Mustache knight bragging about stuff he didn't do. Still an asshole. (Also checked, didn't see him in the first episode.)

As expected, Mein is the one to inform Motoyasu about Raphtalia being a slave.

Motoyasu's "Fight me!" sounded internet meme-y. YouTube and Twitter challenges. You just know that Motoyasu had to have had a ton of followers on social media.

The king's false denigration of Naofumi, over having a demi-human as a slave. Already talked about that.

The Pope. First time we've seen him, though unsurprising that he exists, given the church. I suppose there might be a bit of oddity in having the highest position of the church reside in the capital city (usually head of government and head of church don't like to co-exist), but I suppose there's an excuse given the celebratory party.

Ah, I was mistaken. When we see Itsuki and Ren at the start of the match (6:24), the girl on Itsuki's right (blonde hair, collar, strand of hair in the middle of her face) is one of his party members — the spear wielder. And the guy to Ren's left (blond hair, elbow-length green cape) might be the knife-user in Ren's party. Maybe the celebration allows each hero to bring one party member? Still annoying.

Mein being down in the fighting arena at the start threw all kinds of red flags.

Vague estimate on crowds is about 300-500 spectators. 10-15 spectators per niche, 8 niches per wall, 4 walls, not counting the king, pope, and their respective contingents. Sounds about right for a good-sized party.

I mentioned details about Motoyasu's party's levels before (in the math post in the general thread), but I noticed another new thing: There's an asterisk next to Mein's level in Motoyasu's display. Motoyasu is level 43; Mein is level 40, with an asterisk, and larger than the others; and the fencer, witch, and dancer are levels 38, 39, and 35, respectively. Not sure what the asterisk means.

Motoyasu's Chaos Spear attack skill didn't do any actual damage to Naofumi. At least, according to the HP bar over his head. It's 133 pixels solid red both before and after the attack, despite the blood splashes from apparent hits. (Note that later in the fight, Naofumi's HP bar fades out as it's reduced.) Possibly just an editing error.

After locking Motoyasu up in the Shield Cage, Naofumi looks up into the stands — presumably at the king — and the king looks to the side. It's probably a question of whether this counts as a 'pin', by the rules, though the king of course ignores it. I am curious about what the king is looking at, though.

-- Actually, the king looks to the left, and after Motoyasu declares victory, the pan out shot shows that the Pope is seated on the wall to the left of the king's position. I had thought they were opposite each other, before. Anyway, that seems to imply that the king is checking with the Pope before deciding any result regarding Naofumi's apparent win, earlier.

After the cheat wind attack from Mein, and a few deflected strikes from Motoyasu, Naofumi is now at half health, while Motoyasu is down about 1/3 at this point. When we see Naofumi's health as his vision decays, it's slightly below 25%. So that massive Lightning Spear attack did a bit more than 25% of Naofumi's health.

Edit: Missed, but someone else pointed it out in another place, but: You can see the reduction in Mein's MP after she makes the attack, whereas she had been full up at the start. Minor clue, though of course Motoyasu wouldn't notice it (likely very few people would).

We see the Pope during a side-glance of the king, where it might possibly be implied that he's looking at the Pope, given that it cuts to the Pope immediately after, with some peon whispering stuff in his ear. The king seems more concerned about what's going on with the Pope than about the accusations that Itsuki and Ren are making.

I'll assume the Pope will come up again in the future, given the central position the church has with respect to the hourglass and the Waves. He doesn't get a good first impression, though, being part of the spectators that all ignored Mein's cheating, even though he was one of the two officials legitimizing the match.


Anyway, Raphtalia went through all her forms while talking to Naofumi, finally ending in the full adult form. Also, the next morning when Naofumi wakes back up, we get the doves flying away, reminiscent again of the Re:Zero scene.

--

Anyway, the only elements that seem like they might carry forward into new stuff are Mustache Knight and the Pope. Oh, and maybe some mechanics thing with the asterisk. And Naofumi actively looking for who else he can bring during the next Wave teleport.

[felix]

Originally Posted by Kinematics

Do you mean "Sleight of hand"? And what is it that you consider "sleight of hand"? Your sentence doesn't really make any sense.

As for the meltdown feeling forced, I did not get that impression. Perhaps a slight bit rushed (Edit: Actually, I wouldn't even say that, after another re-watch), due to the time issues they've had throughout the series, but definitely not forced.

I meant that at any time it's convenient the plot can just go that's not reality, this is reality. In this episode we got "OH no-no, he's actually been crazy this whole time! Really!" This is very problematic, because effectively the story is throwing it's exposition under the bus to some extend. Any commitment to the story is basically useless.

Some other examples of what could happen that would be similar: the other heroes were pure evil all along! the king is actually the good guy! Maybe actually had really good reasons for what she did! Raphalia is actually totally broken on the inside! Naofumi is actually the villain, etc.

Basically forced retconing into a random direction. I do not know who likes this sort of junk being pulled, but I hate it very much. It doesn't impress me, and also has the effect of tacking me out of the story (because it feels unnatural). To do it properly it needs to be at least lightly hinted.

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

It shifts the meaning a bit I'd say. It's not that his blow up here was over-the-top, it's just that his previous outbursts were shrunk down. Yes, the animators' choice to make him act out less before this made this moment seem less "characteristic", but the fault lies not with this scene but with the scenes preceding it that were cut or altered.

I do not disagree with the point that it would be better (though I'm sure it raises other problems/trade-offs), I only disagree as this being a valid defense of the way the anime doing it. This isn't even a case of "the novels explain the missing part" this is a case of a completely different take on it. Since you guys bring up the novels doing it better by so-and-so difference then I assume you are in agreement that pacing of that part was done poorly in the anime's version of the events? Which was the original point raised.

Originally Posted by Kinematics

In order for that moment with Raphtalia to mean anything, that had to be Naofumi's lowest point ever. Anger may be a part of it, but it's helplessness and depression that drive people to that point, not anger. In fact, anger is a sustaining emotion when placed against those others. When Naofumi shows anger, that's when he's surpassing even more negative emotions. It holds him up, keeps him active in that situation. We saw that a few times in episode 3.

The problem is that anger reads fine there. He got screwed. Helplessness and depression feel like they were unnatural. Especially given his situation for a while now. Also as others have mentioned he had plenty of reasons not be there at all. It's hard to sympathize with the hero going to the big bad villains to "beg" and ask for a beating. They nearly gave him the death sentence after the fake rape thing for crying out loud, why would you get close to that crowd?

Originally Posted by serenade_beta

I was wondering what this "Characters forced to act stupid just to cause drama" reminded me of. Hanebato!

Oh god you're right. well lets hope it doesn't turn into that disaster in the end.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by felix

that's not reality, this is reality

I see, so story is too complex for you to comprehend? Too bad, it seems kinda allrighty for now. Or maybe you saving yourself from a big disappointment later, it can easily turn out author bitten more he can chew and it will end in a flop.

[felix]

Originally Posted by Dharma

I see, so story is too complex for you to comprehend? Too bad, it seems kinda allrighty for now. Or maybe you saving yourself from a big disappointment later, it can easily turn out author bitten more he can chew and it will end in a flop.

Fake drama isn't what I would call hard to understand.

Anyway I do agree with you it's alright for now. Hey at least no more slave seal, one big black mark on it gone.

[Itlandm]

I am amused that despite there being separate threads for manga and light novels spoilery, the episode thread is still crawling with it. I guess it can't be helped. I don't mind spoilers myself, although I only read the start of the LN series. It was too emo for me, not saying the anime is not emo but it does not go on for hours at a time. ^_^

Now I am curious if Raphtalia will want to have the slave seal reinstated. No need to tell me, I'm just saying I am curious. I mean, if the author want to cater to the slavery fetish, I suppose it can be done. I assume you don't become magically immune to slavery just by having the slave seal washed away with holy water or whatever that stuff was.

[Dengar]

Crawling with it? Where?

Anyway I'm not sure what sort of "forced retcons" you seem to be referring to in the context of this story?

[PreSage]

Originally Posted by Twi

He was too busy cowering at the threat of having his beautiful face ruined.

Still, if I look up and see my opponent unexpectedly flat on his face like that...I would be wondering what happened.

Originally Posted by Frontier

Naofumi holding his own against Spear Hero was pretty cool. Nobody seemed to take Naofumi seriously as a combatant so it was nice to see him utilizing his different shields and attacks, as well as his patented balloon monster move, to whittle down Motoyasu .

I wonder how uncomfortable it must be to have those balloon monsters constantly on you...

Spear Hero...gah, Spear Hero. I guess any real hero has to have at least a modicum of self-righteousness, but rather then it being genuine, with Motoyasu it just comes off as him trying to make himself feel better and remaining completely oblivious to anything that goes against that. Part of me can't help but think that the reason he's so centered on Naofumi is because Naofumi's perceived "villainy" can help make Motoyasu look better. Out of all the heroes he might take the longest to come around to Naofumi because he probably doesn't want to believe Naofumi is a better person then Motoyasu thinks he is (or maybe even better then him) .

None of the heroes are outright bad. They are just foolish characters who think too highly of themselves or too highly of their ideals.

But on that note Raphtalia slapping Spear Hero and telling everybody off was so satisfying. I knew she wouldn't cater to how everyone was expecting her to act the moment they took the gag off, but it was great to see her completely steal the show and defend Naofumi from those tools. She's definitely a keeper, Naofumi .

Totally agree! Raphtalia has certainly grown to be a very strong and independent woman, and surprisingly her character suits Naofumi's very well.

The one thing I still don't quite understand is why did Naofumi lose his sense of taste and couldn't see the grown-up Raphtalia until now? I understand that whatever "spell" it was broke when he finally decided to trust someone but why was this there in the first place?

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Itlandm

I am amused that despite there being separate threads for manga and light novels spoilery, the episode thread is still crawling with it. I guess it can't be helped. I don't mind spoilers myself, although I only read the start of the LN series. It was too emo for me, not saying the anime is not emo but it does not go on for hours at a time. ^_^

Now I am curious if Raphtalia will want to have the slave seal reinstated. No need to tell me, I'm just saying I am curious. I mean, if the author want to cater to the slavery fetish, I suppose it can be done. I assume you don't become magically immune to slavery just by having the slave seal washed away with holy water or whatever that stuff was.

Doesn't need to be anything to do with "slavery fetish". The slavery was never about some sort of fetish in my view. It was about trust. About achieving a state where someone who's broken inside the way he is can put his faith in them. That seal is pretty much useless by the time of this duel judging by the previous ep, but it stands as a confirmation that Naofumi can trust her.

Also, to Felix, it's a little extreme to say that this episode just dropped "oh no he was crazy all this time". His bitterness has been quite obvious even if it's played down just a bit. And it's been clearly establish that his senses have been warped by his experience. Besides, even if he wasn't all the way to crazy at this point, it only makes sense that he'd collapse at this point. He'd had everything taken from him, worked desperately and broke rules he wouldn't have been comfortable with until then, and finally gotten to a point where he can survive and actually do something, and then this is all ripped away from him while he's taunted and dismissed and put down even further, all while learning further proof that even the one who had him summoned (I assume it was the king) was from the beginning against him and consciously aiding in his ruin. Getting hit by this sort of thing twice in a row would break most people. Additionally, even if we assumed otherwise before now, his insistence that everyone in town were lolicons makes much more sense and ties in with his delusions once they're realized. He didn't just think them pedophiles because they were interested in a girl who he thinks they should know is really ten, he actually saw the ten-year-old version every time he looked at her.

[Lukes YGO & WS on YT]

Spoiler for Episode 4 Comments/Feedback:

Now this is what you call an incredible emotional episode.

The spear hero can kiss my ass, what a wanker he is.

And then there is the cruel manipulative bitch, who abuses her power because she is the princess.

I am really happy the the other hero's came to the defense of Naofumi and called out her for her actions during that fight.

So looking forward to the next episode.

[felix]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Also, to Felix, it's a little extreme to say that this episode just dropped "oh no he was crazy all this time". His bitterness has been quite obvious even if it's played down just a bit. And it's been clearly establish that his senses have been warped by his experience. Besides, even if he wasn't all the way to crazy at this point, it only makes sense that he'd collapse at this point. He'd had everything taken from him, worked desperately and broke rules he wouldn't have been comfortable with until then, and finally gotten to a point where he can survive and actually do something, and then this is all ripped away from him while he's taunted and dismissed and put down even further, all while learning further proof that even the one who had him summoned (I assume it was the king) was from the beginning against him and consciously aiding in his ruin. Getting hit by this sort of thing twice in a row would break most people. Additionally, even if we assumed otherwise before now, his insistence that everyone in town were lolicons makes much more sense and ties in with his delusions once they're realized. He didn't just think them pedophiles because they were interested in a girl who he thinks they should know is really ten, he actually saw the ten-year-old version every time he looked at her.

Maybe. I don't completely disagree with that version of the events. Or have any serious problem with the events. I see it as lazy bad, not egregious bad. Assuming it doesn't happen again and again in the future it's not a big problem.

However, it's just a bit hard to accept it: If he is how you say, it makes NO logical sense for him to be there! (and he's shown plenty of common sense and logic thus far)
He didn't lose his mind and cool in half an episode, he lost it literally on the spot.
You also don't want to dig too deep in this "mentally ill" theory/explanation since it just makes him weak as a character.

I still feel the best explanation (if we're to find an excuse) is to blame it on the shield and just move on. It literally has "curse" in the name.

[Dengar]

I’m so confused... What exactly are you blaming on this ‘curse’? Maybe I missed something you said earlier but what sort of inconsistency are you referring to?


What part is ‘lazy bad’?

[Sheba]

I am going by the french subs and just say that the only reason Naofumi was in this place is for the reward, no matter how meager it is (because it's likely that the guards and others spun the story as "he did nothing").

He is in the position of a worker who still need his salary, to help himself and his family, stuck in a toxic workplace with a boss that absolutely hates his guts, bitchy secretary that framed him, and workmates that believed the secretary and want nothing to do with him. Worker is a good man, he knows that, and will do the job the best he can because there is no one else for that and he have a certain sense of duty, and a purpose, his family. And the current recession makes it hard for him to leave that job. False rape accusations aside, I have seen such situations in real life. Those guys, and Naofumi, are literally given no fcking choices.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by felix

Maybe. I don't completely disagree with that version of the events. Or have any serious problem with the events. I see it as lazy bad, not egregious bad. Assuming it doesn't happen again and again in the future it's not a big problem.

However, it's just a bit hard to accept it: If he is how you say, it makes NO logical sense for him to be there! (and he's shown plenty of common sense and logic thus far)
He didn't lose his mind and cool in half an episode, he lost it literally on the spot.
You also don't want to dig too deep in this "mentally ill" theory/explanation since it just makes him weak as a character.

I still feel the best explanation (if we're to find an excuse) is to blame it on the shield and just move on. It literally has "curse" in the name.

He's there for money, plain and simple. He's improved a good deal but I doubt he's yet at a point where he can afford to ignore a cash award.

Also, there's a difference between "losing it" and being "mentally ill". Trauma can cause anyone to crack, and he'd been hammered away at for a long time. Frankly, I don't mind him being "weak" because I don't feel it makes him a "weak character". Characters that are naturally able to do anything or able to stay in control in the face of situations where such a thing is absurd aren't "strong", they're unbelievable and undefeatable. A person who can't be challenged isn't strong just like a person incapable of fear isn't brave. They may be strong or brave, but it's impossible to show it. A person who's been demonstrated to be weak and broken and full of areas where positive and heroic acts are a struggle is able to demonstrate his strength as he climbs his way back out, just like a person who's terrified of his situation can show how incredibly brave he is as he throws himself into the depths of his personal hell to get the job done.

And it wasn't "on the spot" at all. He'd been furious and filled with bitterness and hate from the get-go. He'd managed to pull off some periods of positivity but it never took much to bring him back down again. One wrong look and he'd be on his guard, one wrong word and he'd be ready for a fight, one glance of certain people and his blood would boil. And that's far from hard to believe. A person who'd experienced trauma can indeed feel periods of calm and security and happiness, even long periods given the right circumstances, but still easily fall back into the depths with just one glance at a particular person or situation. That's the original meaning of "trigger" before silly little snowflakes turned it into anything they didn't like. You can find something that allows you to regain yourself bit by bit, but just one little trigger can take it all away again.

But yeah, I'd agree that the shield has a part to do with it. Sort of a two-sided thing: his anger and pain reach a certain point and the shield unlocks. Then whenever he starts to sink it reaches its tentacles out to drag him under. But it definitely seems like there's something pushing/pulling him toward full outburst.

[moridin84]

Originally Posted by felix

I meant that at any time it's convenient the plot can just go that's not reality, this is reality. In this episode we got "OH no-no, he's actually been crazy this whole time! Really!" This is very problematic, because effectively the story is throwing it's exposition under the bus to some extend. Any commitment to the story is basically useless.

You remember how upset he was at the start when he was betrayed right?

There wasn't anything in the following episodes that indicated that he had "gotten over it".

So a similar thing happens again he gets upset again. And even worse because it's the second time.

Basically forced retconing into a random direction. I do not know who likes this sort of junk being pulled, but I hate it very much. It doesn't impress me, and also has the effect of tacking me out of the story (because it feels unnatural). To do it properly it needs to be at least lightly hinted.

It's not retconning, at least not in this case.

The scene was obviously planned from the moment the show started.

The problem is that anger reads fine there. He got screwed. Helplessness and depression feel like they were unnatural. Especially given his situation for a while now. Also as others have mentioned he had plenty of reasons not be there at all. It's hard to sympathize with the hero going to the big bad villains to "beg" and ask for a beating. They nearly gave him the death sentence after the fake rape thing for crying out loud, why would you get close to that crowd?

Money. His reward for completing the wave.

[~Yami~]

First, congratulations for another sub-forum.. it's been a while since last time we got it

Spoiler for disgusting fact that I think got skipped in anime:

I think they didn't mention that the "slave mark eraser" magic would cost all Naofumi's reward for the first wave.. means that the kingdom didn't grant him anything aside from that one bite of cake that Raphtalia gave him

I'm glad that I finally went through this part..
like in first episode, I'm glad they tried really hard to mellow the three heroes' attitude
Spear guy didn't speak as loud as I predict.. while Itsuki and Ren only commented as outsiders.. you can't blame both of them in this episode
After all Itsuki is an idealist.. he might be biased but he trusted his own eyes
and Ren is a loner.. who didn't care about anything
They're different from Motoyasu, which is very emotional and STUPID

I think Raphtalia's VA could use more soothing voice during the reconciliation part
but Raphtalia smile is angelic

now we're moving forward to positive stuffs
after all, Naofumi won't face his persecution alone from now on

[Tactics]

I seriously questioned whoever called it a retcon. There is no retcon happening so far.

Naofumi is still true to his character.

He is working with others during Wave is not indicating he's completely healed, but having people outside cooperative with him does mellowing him that he can keep silent, spending his time checking Help menu to see if there are any details he missed; better than back then when he's totally hostile toward everyone when eating at lodge.

It supposed to be 'take the reward, ate the food, then go home'-- and voila! He have King and his daughter goes,
"OMG! A hero is using demi-human slave, we must freed her from this bad exemplar of hero. BTW I'd love to see Motoyasu kick his as* while doing so".
What's wrong with him feeling 'I just can't take it anymore. Damn this Shield! Damn you all!' (unlocking something in progress) when they erase Raphtalia crest after bring him down to less than 50% HP with almost no one cares about Myne cheating?

In case you forgot, she is his only proper party member. His only friend to talk properly without need to raise his guard. The only person willing to listen to him and following his order. For the first time, there's someone he can trust. So yeah, losing her is great deal enough to push him back to abyss even if you put 'he can just look for another slave' argument.

Raphtalia herself became understand why Naofumi at most times is hostile toward others, and she gave what Naofumi needed the most, reassuring him that there's someone willing to stay with him until the end in midst of that. The premise is still the same with original source, so there is no retcon.

Originally Posted by ~Yami~

Spoiler for disgusting fact that I think got skipped in anime:

I think they didn't mention that the "slave mark eraser" magic would cost all Naofumi's reward for the first wave.. means that the kingdom didn't grant him anything aside from that one bite of cake that Raphtalia gave him

Either they will tell it on next episode or not.
Although I doubt they will explain it as this event alone is telling that the King have no intention letting Naofumi having his reward - peacefully - to begin with.

[magnuskn]

BTW, does this series get two full cours or only one?