Macross Delta - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[Mistyclear]

Originally Posted by Thess

Edit: Definitely my favorite scene this episode. Bogue not so tough against a barely clothed, singing Reina. His screaming against Walkure in the end was pure comedy. How can you take him seriously as enemy after this?

He's quite pure in that regard isn't he.

[CriiGV]

Don't be fooled. Thess is an avid Hayate/Mirage shipper and very tsundere about it. He'll take Hayate/Mirage over Sky End even if it ruins Mirage's character. :P

Anyway, perhaps Cassim will defect from the Windies. We've already seen how hesitant he is as of late. I'd love it if he and Freyja could find common ground. The love for apples brings people together.

[darkplatform]

Originally Posted by Thess

Honestly, who cares about this? Her feelings came out nowhere and remain inexplicable to me. Other characters are concerned about real problems like the war while hers seem petty and childish. She needs to learn to move on and grow up. It was really unappealing she was looking silently jealous when Freyja and the girls were singing their hearts out for their mission.

Sorry Thess I could never agree with you on this.

- First, because Mirage is already IN my heart.

Not sure why though or since when; I don't think because of her last name, she's certainly not super-sexy if at all, but likely because of her problems are real and emphatic.
I have felt the pressure of family, environment and education pressing you over and over with my the intimate feeling of not being good enough trying to choke you and the struggle to keep afloat, and tbqh I'm not even talking in past here.

It pains me when nobody notices this / lends her a hand and the writers don't give her even one episode and i mean A REAL EPISODE not a filler one, for her to develop. It should be Hayate naturally but that keeps not-happening and she doesn't have a single friend to talk about (ala klan, claudia, nanase, ozma, brera) anything.

Unlike Freyja and Mikumo(but in her case is understandable given her mystical purpose), the whole universe's survival doesn't/won't rest on her shoulders and her existence isn't perfect for the sake of being perfect, as the series keeps repeating to us how perfect freyja is and how pure and perfect just because she is!


- Second, because it's necessary for Macross to work.

Visuals alone don't make a good series much less a memorable one,
Music alone won't make it,
not the Mechas on their own,
The core of any successful anime is in the people and how they intersect with each other.
People is the glue that make everything else fall in place.

And Macross core is about 3 persons and this can't be denied much less insulted as Delta is doing with Mirage.

Misa Minmay and Hikaru, take one out of the equation and tell me if everything doesn't fall apart.
Myung Isamu Guld, Basara Gamlin Mylene, Sheryl Alto Ranka, they all needed each other and none of them could have made it to the end of their stories without the others and none of them existed as fodder or fuel for the rest.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Nope, I'm with you darkplataform.

Thanks magnus. Too much of this feelings were just bottling up in my chest and I needed to write them down.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by Mistyclear

He's quite pure in that regard isn't he.

Then there's Roid, basking in the glow of a dozen Walküre videos at once. The BD omake really doesn't help any of them about this, either.

[Dash_Hunter]

Originally Posted by darkplatform

Everything in Delta feels this uninteresting and simpleton in plot points for anyone else or is just me?

It's not just you, though I wouldn't say uninteresting but simpleton is a good description, Delta's plot is interesting but really simple and has become very predictable, now if you add a huge cast of characters with barely any development then things start to get stagnant and a bit boring.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by darkplatform

I have felt the pressure of family, environment and education pressing you over and over with my the intimate feeling of not being good enough trying to choke you and the struggle to keep afloat, and tbqh I'm not even talking in past here.

If it's about that, Freyja had it far worse (Hayate now has it worse too and you don't see him crushed or sulking over it: he takes action): she was pressured by marriage she stopped celebrating her birthdays, her entire planet is isolated and she went against the flow to the point she had to escape it illegally (they weren't allowed to leave) to follow her path. Instead of giving in to peer pressure, she escaped that environment and found her path. By this comparison, Mirage's petty small problems are a child's play so her attitude is not admirable at all. She refuses to actually grow up from her own childish mental and emotional trappings.

She will break free, though. Eventually.

However, that's the point and the problem with Mirage: she's not her own character, but exists to foil our protagonists about undesirable aspects they shouldn't be like. Same happened to Ranka, in fact, only that it was limited to Sheryl, while Mirage has the issue that she's foiling Hayate and Freyja.

It pains me when nobody notices this / lends her a hand and the writers don't give her even one episode and i mean A REAL EPISODE not a filler one, for her to develop. It should be Hayate naturally but that keeps not-happening and she doesn't have a single friend to talk about (ala klan, claudia, nanase, ozma, brera) anything.

Nobody needs to help her. She has to help herself. She's in self-made depression of her own doing because she let other people's perception affect her. Nobody told Freyja "Oh poor thing, called a traitor by Bogue-kun. He's so mean!" In fact, Mikumo told her off because she couldn't get over some harsh words while she was obviously affected that her planet is wagging war like this. Mirage doesn't need to be babied or she'll lose any legitimacy she has as a character. Yes, I'm not feeling any sympathy because no character in the show received free sympathy and buttpats over inane stuff like this: they were told to get over their issues and they did to do their best in missions. Mirage has been the only one who is unable to grow up, because her immaturity is affecting her performance, thus she brings her team down.

It's annoying, but it's not fault of the cast.

Unlike Freyja and Mikumo(but in her case is understandable given her mystical purpose), the whole universe's survival doesn't/won't rest on her shoulders and her existence isn't perfect for the sake of being perfect, as the series keeps repeating to us how perfect freyja is and how pure and perfect just because she is!

Freyja's not perfect. If she was, she wouldn't have episodes and episodes mulling over Bogue's words or Mikumo constantly threatened to kick her out. But unlike Mirage, she grew up and found her reason to fight. She developed. That's why I always stated that Freyja is superficially childish but she's emotionally mature while Mirage is a child who is starved for validation wearing an adult woman's body.

And Macross core is about 3 persons and this can't be denied much less insulted as Delta is doing with Mirage.

I don't remember Mirage being introduced as protagonist in Delta.

Misa Minmay and Hikaru, take one out of the equation and tell me if everything doesn't fall apart.
Myung Isamu Guld, Basara Gamlin Mylene, Sheryl Alto Ranka, they all needed each other and none of them could have made it to the end of their stories without the others.

Episode 13 played with Mirage as a sort of vanguard of Hayate and Freyja. Her role isn't glamorous but still important because she's watching their backs while they do their team up. Hopefully she'll grow into be more comfortable with flying but frankly, she doesn't need to be a protagonist anymore.

Originally Posted by CriiGV

Don't be fooled. Thess is an avid Hayate/Mirage shipper and very tsundere about it. He'll take Hayate/Mirage over Sky End even if it ruins Mirage's character. :P

I would take any ending over Freyja/Hayate one, because I love their relationship as platonic all right? The romance stuff ruins it to me. Hayate can go and date Chuck while Freyja hooks up with Kaname.

Naturally, Mirage's feelings for Hayate can also be construed as nonromantic. She admires his carefree nature and talent as pilot is drawn to him because of this. A classic twist of "admiration mistaken by real love" which happens often. She obviously projects a lot in him.

Anyway, perhaps Cassim will defect from the Windies. We've already seen how hesitant he is as of late. I'd love it if he and Freyja could find common ground. The love for apples brings people together.

Cassim has been my favorite Knight since episode 8 and I was dubbing him a redshirt who will be killed, so I wish this could happen and he can survive and be with his wife and kid.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Thess

How many episodes does this have? Because Hayate is going to spend time with her in their mission and Freyja won't be there (though preview does show him with Freyja talking to Cassim, so idk how long will that be ). They could play the "I am in love with Freyja, but love Mirage" card too.

Around 24. Next one is episode 18 and Hayate and Freyja appear together in the preview, like you said.

No matter how you look at it, it's just too late for Mirage. At this point her fans should be hoping she gets at least some character development, not a romance.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Around 24. Next one is episode 18 and Hayate and Freyja appear together in the preview, like you said.

No matter how you look at it, it's just too late for Mirage. At this point her fans should be hoping she gets at least some character development, not a romance.

Well at least the war story now gets interesting again.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Around 24. Next one is episode 18 and Hayate and Freyja appear together in the preview, like you said.

Are you sure? I could have sworn it was 26 episodes.

Just because they are together, doesn't mean they wouldn't drift apart enough for Mirage to win his romantic affection: Her rune is dim. They could patch up their friendship though.

[darkplatform]

Originally Posted by Thess

She will break free, though. Eventually.

No much faith honestly, it's been already 17 of 24 episodes and her issues remain stagnant.

Originally Posted by Thess

Freyja is superficially childish but she's emotionally mature while Mirage is a child who is starved for validation wearing an adult woman's body.

Aren't all of them 15yo adolescents this time? Freyja isn't physically a child like Ranka or Mao, she has a normal body with curves.

Originally Posted by Thess

Nobody needs to help her. She has to help herself.

Come on Thess you know that's kind of baloney.
You just don't say to yourself "snap out of it" and problems go away one minute later, and even if it works sometimes you don't make it like that without getting scars on you. Much less with baggage that's been burdening since your memory works.

That's like saying people with emotional problems that can't overcome on their own are worthless individuals. Nobody does it on their own in this world or any other.

We know she had a failed mission in the past that might have left a mark on her but it was only commented and never explored.

And about developing alone, Mikumo's words and actions were actual help, never too soft or hard, but the perfect kind and amount of help Freyja needed every single time.

Hayate got help too when dealing with Messer's disease and after killing another human being. Help he got from Mirage exclusively.
The writers just forgot to tell us what Mirage got from those experiences so might as well never happened for her.

I don't get what's the point of Mirage not having anyone to talk or any friend other than Hayate. The rest of the squad are barely her acquaintances.

Again, I just don't get the point of what they are doing.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by darkplatform

Come on Thess you know that's kind of baloney.
You just don't say to yourself "snap out of it" and problems go away one minute later, and even if it works sometimes you don't make it like that without getting scars on you.

I feel like I kinda want to give you a hug, right now.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by darkplatform

No much faith honestly, it's been already 17 of 24 episodes.

Wasn't it 26? We're in trouble if it's only 24, not just because of Mirage, but because of the series plot pacing.

Aren't all of them 15yo adolescents? Freyja isn't physically a child like Ranka or Mao, she has a normal body with curves.

I agree that Freyja looks like a teenager (thankfully). I mean her mannerisms at times. She's obviously wise beyond her years. She reminds me to an older Ahiru from Princess Tutu and miscellaneous strong willed shoujo protagonists.

Come on Thess you know that's kind of baloney.
You just don't say to yourself "snap out of it" and problems go away one minute later, and even if it works sometimes you don't make it like that without getting scars on you.

Look, that would be a point if Mirage was still in an environment of people looking down her because of her family name but nobody in her team gives a damn. The problem is her pushing expectations and taking them seriously. How long was since anyone even mentioned she was a Jenius? Episode 6? Maybe episode 5?

Mirage holds Mirage down. Nobody else does. Hayate already told her to fly as she likes.

That's like saying people with emotional problems that can't overcome on their own are worthless individuals. Nobody does it on their own in this world or any other.

It's not a serious emotional problem, it looks like the issues Ranka had (crush doesn't like me and her self steem). She has low self esteem and issues because her family is famous. Arad gave her a (IMO undeserved) promotion and nobody of her squad gives a damn about her family. The only one who has an issue on it is Mirage herself.

We know she had a failed mission in the past that might have left a mark on her but it was only commented and never explored.

We don't know what happened in the past. It's a moot point.

And about developing alone, Mikumo's harsh words and actions were help, never too soft or hard, but the perfect kind and amount of help Freyja needed every single time.

And those harsh words or Hayate's encouragement weren't enough to snap Mirage out her funk? Mirage doesn't need to be coddled. She needs to take her time out and actually build her own confidence. Hayate isn't a miracle worker.

Sure, can expect her that Hayate's "love" magically heals her wounds and makes her a wonder ace, but that would make her and even worse character than she already is (I expect it to happen nonetheless, because I don't have high standards for Mirage).

I don't get what's the point of Mirage not having anyone to talk or any friend other than Hayate. The rest of the squad are barely her acquaintances.

Again, I just don't get the point of what they are doing.

She's an awkward antisocial person, because Hayate and Freyja are extrovert busybodies. That's the point. Ranka was a foil to Sheryl. Mirage is a foil to Hayate and Freyja. That's the whole problem with her character. Mirage has been in Chaos longer but I can easily say Freyja and Hayate are more beloved because they reach out for people around them. Even Messer was more social than Mirage (he socialized a lot with Chuck's siblings, for example).

Oh, I just realized Walkure is the new wallpaper of the Delta website. I wonder if they'll take off the focus of the triangle and focus more on Walkure anticts with this key images and the opening one.

[darkplatform]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

I feel like I kinda want to give you a hug, right now.

Heh, thanks for saying that Beto, for real.
I feel somehow lighter after ridiculing myself over the forum though

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Thess

She's an awkward antisocial person, because Hayate and Freyja are extrovert busybodies. That's the point. Ranka was a foil to Sheryl. Mirage is a foil to Hayate and Freyja. That's the whole problem with her character. Mirage has been in Chaos longer but I can easily say Freyja and Hayate are more beloved because they reach out for people around them. Even Messer was more social than Mirage (he socialized a lot with Chuck's siblings, for example).

Mirage isn't antisocial. Her problem is just she can't express feelings because she does not know how. Remember when she talked with Hayate when looking for a present? She herself said, she had experience with going out on a drink, however, she feels that it does not count in terms of a romance.

Since you mention that Messer has been more social than Mirage. Sorry, but Messer was a true badass in terms of social relationships. and why? because he was VAR infected and he build up this self protection to avoid closer relationships when the situation comes where his teammates have to kill him. Locking himself away rather than allowing others to help is more what I would understand as a antisocial behavior, because you don't trust others. In terms of trust. Mirage trusts Hayate and vice versa.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Thess

Just because they are together, doesn't mean they wouldn't drift apart enough for Mirage to win his romantic affection: Her rune is dim. They could patch up their friendship though.

It took Freyja 17 episodes to get even a slightly kinda-romantic reaction from Hayate. Mirage has no chance imo, but if you want to believe she does, be my guest.

[Mistyclear]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Mirage isn't antisocial. Her problem is just she can't express feelings because she does not know how. Remember when she talked with Hayate when looking for a present? She herself said, she had experience with going out on a drink, however, she feels that it does not count in terms of a romance.

Since you mention that Messer has been more social than Mirage. Sorry, but Messer was a true badass in terms of social relationships. and why? because he was VAR infected and he build up this self protection to avoid closer relationships when the situation comes where his teammates have to kill him. Locking himself away rather than allowing others to help is more what I would understand as a antisocial behavior, because you don't trust others. In terms of trust. Mirage trusts Hayate and vice versa.

Messer's situation wasn't about trust it was to make it easier emotionally for his allies that should the time come when he falls to Var (again) they could kill him and not be so torn over it....that's not saying they wouldn't be torn, but its a whole hell of a lot harder to kill a friend than a stranger particularly when you know there is in fact a way to save them.
But because Messer was so badass the second time around he managed to control it rather than be controlled .

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Mistyclear

Messer's situation wasn't about trust it was to make it easier emotionally for his allies that should the time come when he falls to Var (again) they could kill him and not be so torn over it....that's not saying they wouldn't be torn, but its a whole hell of a lot harder to kill a friend than a stranger particularly when you know there is in fact a way to save them.

At the farewell party at the beach that sounded different. At least that is how the others have viewed Messer.

Originally Posted by Mistyclear

But because Messer was so badass the second time around he managed to control it rather than be controlled .

Ehm, as far as I know it was because he focussed on Kanames Axia rather than being able to controll VAR directly by sheer badass will. Unless I missed your sarcasm.

[Ura-dora]

The main problem that Mirage faces, is the way she is advertised in the show. Mirage should have never been labeled as a main character. I'm not saying this because of favoritism but it's clear Mikumo should have been the third main character of Delta. In fact, her entire role in the show revolves around that plot. One can go as far as saying she is the plot. I'm not saying Mikumo should have been apart of he love triangle, Mirage can keep that storyline. I just think their secondary and main character statuses should be switched.

Based off Kawamori's interviews about how the original intent of the show, along with him creating Mirage for the love triangle (Mirage was confirmed to be the last character created). I'm starting to wonder if the first original poster for Macross Delta with the three main characters, which had Mikumo's name instead of Mirage's, wasn't a mistake, but a failure to quickly reverse the original poster.

[Thess]

The most important part of the episode to me was the preview.

Spoiler for CAN'T WAIT. I AM EXCITED:

YES.

Originally Posted by Ura-dora

Based off Kawamori's interviews about how the original intent of the show, along with him creating Mirage for the love triangle (Mirage was confirmed to be the last character created). I'm starting to wonder if the first original poster for Macross Delta with the three main characters, which had Mikumo's name instead of Mirage's, wasn't a mistake, but a failure to quickly reverse the original poster.

Kawamori didn't want a triangle and didn't want specially another two singers, one pilot triangle, so the female pilot was slotted for this part, iirc. Mikumo was never going to be a love interest, then (and frankly, I cannot imagine her interested on Hayate, unless it'll be a Mikumo >Freyja < Hayate triangle ).

[CriiGV]

Originally Posted by Thess

At least she's not putting herself a fake rune to catch Hayate's eye like Zessica would do, so she's salvageable.

This might interest you.

Spoiler for pic:

also I watching LINE live and there're a preview of her (Mirage) diary, she talking about Freyja always surrounded by mercat and she thought that Freyja luring mercat by using her rune so Mirage make up a fake rune for luring mercat but it failed.