Too many anime?

[qtipbrit]

Originally Posted by LiberLibri

Not always. Quantitative comparison is required here.

The list of TV Anime in 2004 contains one LN-based title and some VN-based titles including eroges (e.g. "月は東に日は西に")

Two seasons of Maria-sama ga Miteru and Kyou Kara Maoh!

Originally Posted by LiberLibri

In 2007, 6 LN-based and 12-VN based.

Exactly. As I stated before, last year was full of visual novel adaptations, so I didn't understand why it was stated that light novel adaptations have become more popular recently.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by SinsI

Actually, he has a point. It's extremely hard to properly develop characters and backstory in a short series, you usually only have enough time to do it decently for the main hero; for everyone else you have to resort to stereotypes.

Sounds good in theory but not necessarily in reality. I think most of the 'character development' happens exclusively inside of the heads of the audience. The characters are mostly archetypes or are given a short list of traits which can be understood quickly. The longer the series the more complex behavior they will show but more by accident or worse: because the script demands it. Not so much because the script writer follows some Grand Master Plan to illuminate the inner deepness of his heroes. It's the viewer who takes all the noise and tries to incorporate it into a consistent picture. Which then often leads to not much more insight then "Up to now it looked as he was X but now we can see that he's sometimes also anti-X."

It's like Trekkies trying to understand the design of the Enterprise's weapons console by watching Michael Dorn pressing random buttons. Now that's a bit polemic an example but you get what I mean.

I still claim most shows don't actually use the time they have to tell their story. Why should I trust them to use it to develop their charcters.

Of course there are brilliant examples of character development in shows you can't deliver in 13 episodes. Just like you can't retell Monster in 13 episodes. But they aren't the rule.

I wanted to say something about old shows vs. new shows in general. But I have some business to do. Later.

[KholdStare]

It all comes down to preference. I don't like complicated, well-drawn plots that requires many episodes. Most of the anime in my top ten list are movies, OVAs, and 13-episode series. Cardcaptor Sakura and the recently added Bokurano are the only two anime above 13 episodes that I think are amazing.

In short, it's not that longer shows are worse, but they have a greater risk to be worse.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

As I stated before, last year was full of visual novel adaptations, so I didn't understand why it was stated that light novel adaptations have become more popular recently.

When I said "as of late" I meant this year.

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

Maybe I should use "eroge" instead of "visual novel" since you seem to be confused. Then again, plenty of visual novels aren't eroge, so it wouldn't exactly be the same thing.

It's more or less the same format, which is what I was talking about. I'm not into that elitist blogger bullshit like "VNs aren't eroge" and vice-versa.

To reiterate, light novels have always been the more popular source for anime.

Thanks to LiberLibri, we now see that isn't the case. But let's not forget the feverish adult anime market that's practically raised on eroge.

[Reckoner]

Well, I honestly do not think anime has been getting worse necessarily, but more crap is being fan subbed for sure. Recent shows like Ghost Hound, and the now released Real Drive are the types of shows that are often overlooked by large audiences. I think those are plenty good. I thought True Tears destroyed many of the other slice of life animes out there, and I thought Spice and Wolf was wonderful.

Really it is just relative how you look at the situation. For example many children hated the music their parents listened to and rock music was popularized. The parents would often coment how rambunctious the music was, and that they don't listen to real music. This recently happened with rap music as well, although rap is now a dieing trend from what I've seen.

"Another man's trash, is another man's treasure."

Anime is the same, I'm sure there are many people who look back at their golden days and their favorite shows and refuse to be influenced by anything new.

[WanderingKnight]

Recent shows like Ghost Hound, and the now released Real Drive are the types of shows that are often overlooked by large audiences.

Tell me about it. Real Drive is my #1 awaited show this season, and still no fansubs for it! Ghost Hound has only one group subbing it consistently, too. If it wasn't for the heavy Masamune-speak, I'd grab the RD raws in a whim...

[Ithekro]

Anime is the same, I'm sure there are many people who look back at their golden days and their favorite shows and refuse to be influenced by anything new.

I've found this to be true, having encountered those that grew up before my time, and basically think anything made after around 1985 is crap. Sometimes they will watch it, but the idea/concept of "this sucks because it is new" remains intact.

I might have use to think that (and in the case of American TV I still do in lot of ways), but a few new shows have caught my attention and brought me into the modern age. There will always be crap, but there will also always be a gem or two to be found.

[Triple_R]

Is anime getting shorter?

Shakugan no Shana has two seasons (and quite possibly a third).

Higurashi has two seasons (with a third coming along, IIRC).

Nanoha had the original Nanoha (13 episodes), Nanoha A's (13 episodes), and Nanoha Striker S (26 episodes).

Gundam series' tend to have a good length.

And, of course, there's also Bleach, Naruto, and One Piece... which could be argued to be too long, if anything.

There still seems, to me, to be plenty of variety in the total length of animes.

[qtipbrit]

Originally Posted by Toua

When I said "as of late" I meant this year.

Ah. I misconstrued that to cover a larger period of time.
I generally don't like to use a season and a half as examples, though.

Oh well, my bad.

Originally Posted by Toua

It's more or less the same format, which is what I was talking about. I'm not into that elitist blogger bullshit like "VNs aren't eroge" and vice-versa.

lol@the two of most popular recent visual novel adaptations not being eroge.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Is anime getting shorter?

Shakugan no Shana has two seasons (and quite possibly a third).

Higurashi has two seasons (with a third coming along, IIRC).

Nanoha had the original Nanoha (13 episodes), Nanoha A's (13 episodes), and Nanoha Striker S (26 episodes).

Gundam series' tend to have a good length.

And, of course, there's also Bleach, Naruto, and One Piece... which could be argued to be too long, if anything.

There still seems, to me, to be plenty of variety in the total length of animes.

Yay for Marimite season four!
That being said, there are quite a few sequels coming this year, so anime is more generally split into seperate sequels than longer 1939491-episode series: Code Geass, Haruhi, Full Metal Panic! (nah, I'm kidding, but we can wish [though now we're going to have to wait until after Clannad: After Story] .), Maria-sama ga Miteru, Hidamari Sketch x 365, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, Zero no Tsukaima, Jigoku Shoujo, etc. (with the latter three being third seasons.)

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

Ah. I misconstrued that to cover a larger period of time.
I generally don't like to use a season and a half as examples, though.

Oh well, my bad.

lol@the two of most popular recent visual novel adaptations not being eroge.

Yay for Marimite season four!
That being said, there are quite a few sequels coming this year, so anime is more generally split into seperate sequels than longer 1939491-episode series: Code Geass, Haruhi, Full Metal Panic! (nah, I'm kidding, but we can wish [though now we're going to have to wait until after Clannad: After Story] .), Maria-sama ga Miteru, Hidamari Sketch x 365, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, Zero no Tsukaima, Jigoku Shoujo, etc. (with the latter three being third seasons.)

Well, I see what you mean by that.

I tend to think of sequel series that are chronological continuations of the original series to be, more or less, the second (or third, or fourth, etc... part) of one big anime series combining original with sequel(s).

The only exception is Mai HiME and Mai Otome, where Otome is so different from HiME that it really is more of a stand-alone anime, imo.

[Happy_Chip]

Personally, I don't mind a short series IMHO. There is a definite beginning and definite ending. (Usually). And then you're not bogged down in an infinite, never-ending story that eventually loses all relevance and interest. Start it, move it forward with a crisp, focused story; then end it. Then start something else.

[wingdarkness]

The bad thing right now is that the lack of consistent marketing verses the money being made (Especially here in America) is making studios play it safe, and what's safe? Shonen-fighter's, moe and loli titles, harems or date sims titles...So you're gonna see a $hitload of long fighter titles with merchandising power, and naughty otaku titles that seem to be the only thing that really sells off the shelf here in America (You listening Dateline NBC^^) and Japan...

Creative titles like a Cowboy Bebop or a Serial Experiments Lain just are being phased out right now...Nobody is really willing to take a chance on longer "experimental" titles verses short, money-regulated titles in this area...Yeah it's prolly my fault for what I possess on my hard-drive, I see that now, but still it would be nice to see the quality of titles that were out in the early-to-mid 90's before Japan's economic bubble popped (Or even the late 90's to early 2000's when anime blew up in America before it flattened out)...Also CG evolution has made cutting corners so easy that I doubt we will ever see the amazing intangibles 100% hand-drawn anime used to have...That's why I constantly search for every good series I missed from the 90's, because they'll never be shows like those again...I would love to see long ridiculously quality filled titles again, but the reality is until people start buying the hell out of titles like Baccano! (creating a demand for more eps) it's just gonna stay in limbo for right now...And if you ever played limbo before, when the stick is low it's harder to play it safe^^...That's what the companies are doing right now, so I'll take a quick quality series if I can find it...

[Sokar]

Foreword: This turned out longer than I thought, if you want to read about how I think the anime industry has changed in terms of general trends, just skip past the first two paragraphs.

I don't think that the Japanese anime industry has changed that much at all, it's just that fansubs have changed. The Japanese anime industry is pretty much like American TV or Films in terms of creativity. Most of the stuff is extremely derivative, with a very few truly original works. Most of anime is based on other media, because it takes a lot of money to make an Anime and the producers (and investors) want a sure hit instead of some really novel stuff that no one actually likes. And if something new blows up, then everyone will follow the leader and attempt to cash in on the phenomenon. It has always been this way, with pretty much anything, it's just capitalism. Why spend the money and the risk to come up with something new when you can just copy off the success of others and make a ton of money without the risk? Of course, it doesn't always go this way, as copies tend to be average to terrible, but the mindset doesn't change.

However, previously fansubs have acted as a gateway that filters out all the terrible stuff, and most of the average stuff as well. So a lot fansubbed anime earlier tend to be very good, and the proportion of good anime to average anime is pretty high. Now a days with more fansubbers due to the rise in anime popularity, and faster and better fansubs due to technological advances, and better ways of distributing anime, we get to see a lot more anime now. But the number of the good ones has stayed the same because pretty much all the good ones gets subbed, while the number of the average ones has increased as well. The year to year variation one the number of good anime is different just because of random chance, some years might have one really good one, others may have three. It's just random chance.

There are some general trends in anime that I have noticed. There are of course exceptions of the trends, but it's what I have noticed after watching a fair number of anime:

1. Polarization: Anime has noticeable polarized between the experimental anime such as Serial Experiment Lain, Hack series, Ghost in the Shell series, and other more fanservice (Moe, lolicon, harem and whatnot) oriented anime. A lot more of fanservice anime being made, and the fanservice have gotten more and more gratuitous, just compare Sailor Moon with Nanoha, especially the transformation sequences. This has the effect of squeezing out most of the middle ground stories, where things are more realistic, and not as much mind screw/angst or oh look panties.

2. Addition of (Really) Bishy Characters in Shounen: AKA Fanservice for girls. Shounen characters are typically pretty and not ugly, but recent years have seen the bishiness really kicked up a notch. Companies finally figured out that shows meant for boys can attract a fair number of girls if it's got bishies. And I don't mean good lucking boys, I mean really really bishy. Compare Dragonball to any of the shounen today. Even one of the first bishy shounen series Sainy Seiya got more manly people than most of the shounen today. For some reason shounen characters today just can't grow muscles anymore.

[Slice of Life]

A few more remarks about new and old anime disregarding their length.

First, I don't believe the theory that the economic bubble affected the nature of anime, letting the creators taking less risks. Anime is simply not the market where risks are be taken. Because the possible gains are limited.

If anything, one might argue that the studios and networks have learned their lessons over time, i.e. they found the magic formulas that work with the target audience. But that could be expected to happen, no matter what the economic situation is.

One could also argue that these lessons already had been learned in the 80s. A lot of anime of the mid 80s were carefully designed for maximal effect. Ninja Scroll for example, or anything with hardboiled men, big boobs, and random violence. That weren't creative pieces of anime created by courageous animators against the pressure of the conservative otaku crowd. That's simply what was popular back then. The old rule "when in doubt add a giant robot" was also well estabished in the mid 80s. If anything, mecha anime were less creative in the beginning.

It's also telling that Toua places the Golden Age of Anime in the mid 80s (which is not his personal view AFAIK, but a popular one) while wingdarkness sees it in the mid 90s or later which I see as an indication that this Golden Age is an illusion anyway. Apropos wingdarkness:

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

The bad thing right now is that the lack of consistent marketing verses the money being made (Especially here in America) is making studios play it safe, and what's safe? Shonen-fighter's, moe and loli titles, harems or date sims titles...So you're gonna see a $hitload of long fighter titles with merchandising power, and naughty otaku titles that seem to be the only thing that really sells off the shelf here in America (You listening Dateline NBC^^) and Japan...

First of all, and second, and third, it sells in Japan, the by far dominating market. That's why it is produced. If you want to look what sells in the US look at anime (people might contest this term) that were produced with American money for the American market: Afro Samurai and Highlander. This is the genre that is popular in the US if the dubbing industry is right (which, again, might be disputed). They could be indeed right from the mid 80s; with a facelifting in the animation department of course. Be it because the casual US watcher does indeed see the Golden Age back then or because the people who make the decisions in the US still live in the 80s.

I already said it at other places but in my personal and humble opinion the Golden Age is now if it exists at all. And the current season proves it again. Variety is the keyword. One can easily name anime after anime that simply wouldn't have been possible in the mid 90s and mid 80s. On the other hand, what was popular back then can still be found.

I found Sokar's statement pretty bold, saying that there are one to three "really good" anime every year. Give me a list of anime from the last 12 months and I could point out at least 20 that many people would call "really good" with good arguments even if I, personally, might hate them (the anime, not the people, there are already enough people out there who aren't able to distinguish between these concepts ). Because people's tastes are very different.

The anime market is like the music market. If you're tired of yet another surrogate girl band from Universal Music's clone labors what about trying experimental jazz, electronic music or ambient techno? It's all out there. And the big, big advantage of the anime market, at least up to now, is that it's still possible keep an overview over all productions.

I'm thanking the gods of anime, and the fansub groups of course, for all that "crap" that is subbed nowadays instead of concentrating on the metaphorical girl bands.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

I already said it at other places but in my personal and humble opinion the Golden Age is now if it exists at all. And the current season proves it again. Variety is the keyword. One can easily name anime after anime that simply wouldn't have been possible in the mid 90s and mid 80s. On the other hand, what was popular back then can still be found.

But the "Golden Age" you're talking about is the consumer's. The industry's Golden Age was certainly at a time when consumer spending power was at its strongest, which I would personally acredit to the aforementioned Japanese economic bubble.

[Triple_R]

One thing about recent anime (say, anime that's come out since the turn of the millenium) that bothers me a bit is how exceedingly self-referential, and derivative from other anime, it has become.

It's become the ultimate niche entertainment form which derives inspiration for itself from itself.

Sokar touched on this a bit with the two trends that he mentioned.

It's exceedingly rare these days to see anime with out moe (i.e. cute little girls with a slighty chibi-appearance and hence great big eyes), ecchi, or lolis. Bishies aren't everywhere, but they are growing more common.

I don't have a big problem with either of the above... until they start to outright define the anime industry. Which they have, imo.

I would argue that moe is to anime what technobabble is to Star Trek, that ecchi is to anime what gimmicks (this wrestler's a trash-collector, this wrestler's a dentist, this wrestler's an IRS agent, etc...) were to pro wrestling, and that loli is to anime what exceedingly complicated and detailed continuities are to western super-hero comics.

In other words, to those outside the immediate fandom, it comes off as very insider-esque/self-referential. And hence, I think that these elements can, in heavy doses, turn off potential fans and casual fans. People who are not yet big anime fans begin to percieve the anime entertainment medium as a closed space that feeds upon itself to create new animes, and relies very heavily on, to be frank, gimmicks that have become popularized within the hardcore anime fandom.

Pro wrestling only began to really take off when it stopped relying on gimmicky pro wrestlers, broke away from it's original insider-esque traditions, and presented more and more pro wrestlers that were more and more like real people, only bolder and louder.

Now, a little bit of technobabble won't turn off the casual Star Trek fan... but a lot of it might. The same, I fear, may be true of the affect of ecchi, moe, and lolicon on anime.

All of that being said, I actually find that the quality of story-telling has genuinely improved within anime in recent years.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by Toua

But the "Golden Age" you're talking about is the consumer's.

Of course. Aren't we all? I thought the argument for the Golden Age being before the bubble, right or wrong, was that the consumer benefitted from the creativity of the studios that were able to take more risks.

The Golden Age of the industry is, simply spoken, when they get most money for least effort.

[Seditary]

Just one thing from me.

There never has been, isn't now, and never will be a 'golden age' of anime. Just periods that six hundred million factors helped create that you remember the fondest in your contemplative moments.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

I thought the argument for the Golden Age being before the bubble, right or wrong, was that the consumer benefitted from the creativity of the studios that were able to take more risks.

Well, since I made that argument, I can assure you I had the creators in mind. Of course, as time passes, the consumer has more choice, which is why the fandom's Golden Age is now, but as far as revenue is concerned, the economy is probably the biggest factor in consumer's spending power. Japan's economic prosperity during the 80's enabled individual artists to find enough resources to start off their pet projects, which is what independent animators like Yamamura Koji still do to this day. This resulted in an abundance of new, progressive visual styles; in short, creators could afford to stray away from mainstream craftsmanship of their time.

[Faeyice]

[color=darkseagreen]I've heard that an anime with 30 or less episodes generally promotes the manga, but I'm not sure if that's true.

Currently, I'm only watching animes with 30 or less episodes, as right now I'm trying to watch tons of anime in short periods. If you look at series like Fate/Stay Night, Claymore, Rozen Maiden, Death Note, and maybe even Elfen Lied you'll have to disagree with your theory that short animes aren't that great. I don't really like sitting through fifty or more episodes as it takes for me to watch, and eventually gets tiring. That's why I stopped watching a lot of series. It may all depend on personal opinions, and it definitely varies with different animes. If it's difficult for you to find something good to watch, why don't you just look at the animes with sub forums on animesuki. All of those that I've watched I've loved.