Too many anime?

[Oppius]

We practically live in the golden age of Japanese animation industries. However this doesn't always mean a good thing.I just notice some anime runs too short than it should. As example, Rosario + Vampire only had 13 episodes and ended prematurely. Its manga still running. Oh Great's Tenjo Tenge and Air Gears also ended too soon. Even worse their story was altered by their studio in order to end the show quickly. Now its difficult to find good shows because they just too many.

Back then in 2001-2002, when fansubbing still not a trend on internet. There are lot of shows have more than 24 episodes. After that many studios decided to adapt some visual novels, the 13-episode trend was born. With less episodes, they make room for more shows. Fansubbing also contributed and we entering golden age of Japanese industries. Just like what Happened in Hollywood in 1940's, we have too many shows. Some of them aren't good. Just look at 1970's and 1980's were competition are not as intense as today. Most anime that time have more than 50 episodes. Today we have too many mass-produced anime like conveyor belt in a factory. Most are just too short. Even the directors and script writers take sacrificed the quality for quantity.

[LiberLibri]

We must distinguish the UHF animes and VHF ones. In the period 2001-2, some media conglomerates focused on the market of "anime for core otaku", and began broadcasting experimentally pilot programmes via UHF frequencies. They have been shorter and feeded upon less budget (you see Korean/Chinese names in the staff roll - offshore outsourcing). It's erroneous just to compare the "VHF in 2001"s with "UHF in 2008"s; they are two different items aimed at distinct markets.

The article "UHF-Anime" in Wikipedia is a good startpoint for the discussion.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/UHF%E3%...83%8B%E3%83%A1

[Lanner Falcon]

Originally Posted by Amex_Yohko

We practically live in the golden age of Japanese animation industries. However this doesn't always mean a good thing.I just notice some anime runs too short than it should. As example, Rosario + Vampire only had 13 episodes and ended prematurely. Its manga still running. Oh Great's Tenjo Tenge and Air Gears also ended too soon. Even worse their story was altered by their studio in order to end the show quickly. Now its difficult to find good shows because they just too many.

Back then in 2001-2002, when fansubbing still not a trend on internet. There are lot of shows have more than 24 episodes. After that many studios decided to adapt some visual novels, the 13-episode trend was born. With less episodes, they make room for more shows. Fansubbing also contributed and we entering golden age of Japanese industries. Just like what Happened in Hollywood in 1940's, we have too many shows. Some of them aren't good. Just look at 1970's and 1980's were competition are not as intense as today. Most anime that time have more than 50 episodes. Today we have too many mass-produced anime like conveyor belt in a factory. Most are just too short. Even the directors and script writers take sacrificed the quality for quantity.

I'm not inclined to worry. There's always been trash- back then it just didn't get widely propagated. There is a shift, yes, but its not that massive…

Even so, you do have a definite point: In some, quality has decreased, along with episode number. However others are just as good- and perhaps better.

[Vagrant0]

A series runs 12-13 weeks because that is what the season is. Most anime start out as those 13 week groups. Even ones which ended up being longer running had breaks after their initial season. It's only after it has aired, and has enough viewers that a series may pick up for a second season. Look even long running anime like Bleach, Naruto, ect. The first 12 episodes can usually stand on their own as a story, and any significant changes only occur in the second season, and any great climax moments are usually planned for episode 22 or 23 so that the remaining episode can be used to either finish off the series, or move onto what it happening in the next season.

As far as the role fansubbers play in this, it's undetermined. Personally I believe it actually ends up helping along lesser known series since it generates interest not only overseas, but also within Japan. Afterall, how many programs in your own country do you initially end up hearing about only because they were mentioned in online forums.

As to the increase in series being produced, much of it is because more manga is being produced, more eroge are being produced, and these things develop a fanbase that just also happens to spend time watching anime, and buying anime related products. There is simply a market which exists that is willing to take whatever is thrown at it. Your comparison to 1980's TV probably isn't too far off. But then again, there are some shows produced in that time period which played a role in influencing the generation. Meaning that the variety in anime, although not necessarily better written, is greater, and can reach a wider audience, and even a short series can impact the culture in a significant way. Just look at FLCL, the series didn't even run a complete season, but has left an impact on the culture.

[KholdStare]

I'm actually worried. As I said before, the difference between old anime and new anime is that there are few masterpieces then and many decent series now. I enjoy current anime, but they're not excellent. All we can do is hope that in one of these 13-26 episode series, one will shine. Last season, the best anime (in my opinion, no need to flame) was Clannad. However, that anime to me had more comedy and slice-of-life elements than plot, so it's still just an anime I enjoy that doesn't leave a lasting impact on me. Also, many anime tried to be unique and utterly failed (I'm not listing them to prevent flaming). One of the problem here is that the "good" plots have already been taken. If another FLCL was made, for example, then people just say that it's a mere copy and move on. Creativity coupled with good direction and execution is becoming harder and harder, which might contribute so recent anime quality.

[hero147]

The Gundam franchise is nice, since it always carries close to 50 episodes, or the stories are made for a complete 50 episode storyline, seeing as your avatar comes from Gundam Seed. Anyhow, there are lots of 13 episode animes nowadays. I think the creators of GOOD/Great animes that were 13 episodes HAVE to consider making a second season. 13 episodes is just way to short. Animes such as Elfen Lied etc.... have been a great series, yet the creators seem to never even reconsider a second series, up to the point where we are signing petitions for a second series.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Amex_Yohko

We practically live in the golden age of Japanese animation industries. However this doesn't always mean a good thing.I just notice some anime runs too short than it should. As example, Rosario + Vampire only had 13 episodes and ended prematurely. Its manga still running. Oh Great's Tenjo Tenge and Air Gears also ended too soon. Even worse their story was altered by their studio in order to end the show quickly. Now its difficult to find good shows because they just too many.

Many shows' fans want the series to go longer and consider them too short. However, people's opinions widely vary. Of your 3 examples, 2 of them should never have been made IMO.

Back then in 2001-2002, when fansubbing still not a trend on internet. There are lot of shows have more than 24 episodes. After that many studios decided to adapt some visual novels, the 13-episode trend was born. With less episodes, they make room for more shows.

Part of the reason they have shifted to 13 episodes now is because it lowers the overall risk in making the show. People are more willing to put a little bit of money up for a small risk as opposed to a lot of money for a long show. If you are making a long show and it turns into a sales or ratings failure, that is going to end up being money down the drain and the risk of that is much higher now. It is always easier to make 13 episodes, wait to see how they sell, and then greenlight more if it is selling well. Many of the shows they are making are not reaping money and some of the more surprising ones are making money.

One example of this is FFU. The sponsors and everyone had put up money for a 52 episode series and they expected a hit. The show was a complete failure in every way possible and they cut it off at 25.

Another example is one of the noitamina block shows (which are all scheduled to go long) got shortened and canned after it was a ratings failure.

Fansubbing also contributed and we entering golden age of Japanese industries.

Fansubs have done nearly nothing except raise the total number of fans in the US. There is only a small proxy effect because in the US, DVD sales and TV ratings are what actually talk. The 60k people who watch the fansubs don't matter at all. Those who turn around and buy the DVDs are what matter.

Today we have too many mass-produced anime like conveyor belt in a factory. Most are just too short. Even the directors and script writers take sacrificed the quality for quantity.

Many of these shows would have never been made if it wasn't for the shortness. The multi-season format is actually beneficial because they don't have to suddenly cut it off when they realize they are losing money.

[Slice of Life]

You make actually two points.
A) A long anime is better than a short anime.
B) Anime has become worse over the years.

It is a fact that anime have become shorter. So if we accept A) then B) immediately follows. However, I contest that A) is true.

An anime is too short only if pretends to aim for a conclusion but then doesn't deliver. But few of the anime I've watched recently left me hanging in the air. Maybe Code E, which is getting a sequel (and wasn't that good anyway). Many definitely had a satisfying ending. Most others never gave the impression to aim for anything.

If you want to tell a story in the traditional sense than I expect you to come to the point. No fillers, no straying from the path into unnecessary side-arcs. Ideally, every epsiode must fulfill a task in the greater whole. Few long running shows (> 26 eps) manage this; something like Monster is definitely an exception. There are even many 26 eps shows that aim to deliver a continuous story but are really running zig-zag most of the time without a clear target.

Arc-based or episodic anime are fine too but then I expect variety instead of repetition of a formula. The longer the show the more likely it will become repetitive. Rosario+Vampire that you mention was already repetitive as hell after 4 or so eps (This being of course because the manga was repetitive as hell.)

[cyth]

Originally Posted by KholdStare

I enjoy current anime, but they're not excellent. All we can do is hope that in one of these 13-26 episode series, one will shine.

That has been the case for decades and decades. The only real factor to the supposed golden age of anime during the 80's was the general state of the Japanese economy which allowed many anime directors to be creative with their pet projects. But signal to noise ratio in the much larger commercial anime ward has always been strongly in favor of the latter. That anime has become dramatically worse over the years is a pretty laughable concept. Our anime consumption trends have shifted, that much is true, from the masterpiece pile-up to the wider contemporary anime field.

[WanderingKnight]

Anime is much much more accessible than ever before now. It's only natural that the crap is easier to point out.

[Cheezy]

Rosario Vampire has a second season coming out.

There are lots of good 12-13 episode shows that have aired recently. True Tears and Shigofumi are examples. I dunno about Shigofumi but True Tears had a perfect number.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Toua

The only real factor to the supposed golden age of anime during the 80's was the general state of the Japanese economy which allowed many anime directors to be creative with their pet projects.

This is an excellent point. You can't really compare anime production in different historical periods without some analysis of the economic conditions of those periods. Look at this chart of Japanese GDP. It's immediately apparent that economic growth came to abrupt halt after 1990 or so. There's some indications that growth may have picked up again the past couple of years, but it's still very sluggish.

Since anime is a "luxury" good, its revenue potential is going to be more sensitive to economic trends than necessities like food or shelter. My interpretation of the rise of shorter series has always been that the financiers and producers of anime are now more often hedging their bets, especially when it comes to more risky titles.

I also think the current trend of using eroge as the basis for more and more series is another example of hedging bets. In economically uncertain times, financiers want more predictability about returns, so making shows where there's a pre-existing market makes sense to them.

Shows like Moyashimon and Baccano! (11 episodes each) have short runs because they were financially riskier propositions than shows like Clannad (23 episodes) or Sky Girls (26). The first two were also produced by relative newcomers so, again, we'd expect shorter runs to reduce risk. A studio like Production I.G has the resources to take on bigger and riskier projects like Seirei no Moribito, Ghost Hound, or Real Drive.

I think a more interesting question is how the aging of the Japanese population will affect decisions about anime production. The younger otaku market will continue to shrink in the years ahead. Will producers nevertheless continue to target most anime to this group, or will we see more and more anime designed to appeal to adults? If the past is any indication, an expansion of adult-oriented series is likely to mean shorter runs (Bartender, Hataraki Man, Moyashimon, and Mononoke all come to mind). I very much doubt we'll see another show like Monster unless the economy shows a substantial uptick.

And, like SoL says, length != quality, and shorter often means better.

[qtipbrit]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Shows like Moyashimon and Baccano! (11 episodes each) have short runs because they were financially riskier propositions than shows like Clannad (23 episodes) or Sky Girls (26).

I believe Baccano! was 13 episodes, and has three OVA's coming.

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I think a more interesting question is how the aging of the Japanese population will affect decisions about anime production. The younger otaku market will continue to shrink in the years ahead. Will producers nevertheless continue to target most anime to this group, or will we see more and more anime designed to appeal to adults? If the past is any indication, an expansion of adult-oriented series is likely to mean shorter runs (Bartender, Hataraki Man, Moyashimon, and Mononoke all come to mind). I very much doubt we'll see another show like Monster unless the economy shows a substantial uptick.

Most anime have been targeted as us younger folk over the years though, hasn't it?
And even considering that the younger group of fans will mature, it's needless to say that some of them will drop anime altogether at some point, while some will stay otaku or less hardcore fans for their older years. There are always more people to begin watching anime; Japanese children and teenagers probably still pick up anime from time to time, so there will always be a generation of younger anime fans (unless the birth rates in Japan keep decreasing to drastic levels.)
I expect that both anime targeted toward younger fans and older fans will continue to be made, and that the ratio of the two will not change dramatically, though there may be a small increase in the number of anime targeted towards more mature audiences depending on how the population looks in a couple years.
(Also, I would assume that very, very few anime series are targeted at the age 65+ population, so I don't think an increase in the senior population of Japan would affect how anime is produced.)

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

And, like SoL says, length != quality, and shorter often means better.

I agree.
Shorter series often lead to a better planned airing schedule regarding pace and plot (see Code Geass, Shakugan no Shana II), and can mean increased production quality (see Bleach, Mahou Sensei Negima!) because of the smaller allocation of budget and such.
On a personal level, about 9 of my top 28 or so anime were longer than one cours, and if movies are discounted, it's still 9 of 25.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I also think the current trend of using eroge as the basis for more and more series is another example of hedging bets. In economically uncertain times, financiers want more predictability about returns, so making shows where there's a pre-existing market makes sense to them.

Here's another trend: Eroge's been losing its runner-up status to light novels in anime source materials as of late. The real wave of eroge-based non-adult anime began in 2002~2003, but it's been a losing battle. I think light novels taking the spotlight is a consequence of anime producers peeking into an alternative entertainment industry where young talent can shine more on the individual level. The eroge industry offers very little to script writers; it's by no means a stable industry, considering all the bankruptcies and restructuring that's been going on lately, wages aren't exactly marvelous, and--let's face it--whose dream is to work in a niche porn industry? On the other hand, light novels offer wider name recognition, serialization and consequent tankoubon releases are sold to even mainstream audiences, although I imagine it's a bit harder to find a publisher as an inexperienced novelist. As light novels have a bigger readership base than eroge, I think it's safer to produce such anime that are easier to advertise.

[qtipbrit]

Originally Posted by Toua

snip.

lol@off-topic rant.

SeijiSensei's main point was that anime is a business. Anime based off of popular manga are looking to gain the same popularity themselves. Eroge turned anime have been around since (tell me if I'm wrong) ToHeart, but only recently has there been a surge in anime adaptations of visual novels. Just last year, there were maybe 10-15 visual novel adaptations (go see Kaoishin-sama's mecha thread to see the exact amount.), as opposed to the three or five each year between 2002-2005.

Light novel adaptations have been steadier through the years, and it's obvious that there have been more anime based off of light novels than visual novels in the last decade or so.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

Light novel adaptations have been steadier through the years, and it's obvious that there have been more anime based off of light novels than visual novels in the last decade or so.

Yes, that was my point? Now go compare how many light novel and eroge adaptations this April season has. Eroge have D.C.II S.S. and Yotsunoha OVA, light novels have higher numbers.

Also, what offtopic rant? Cool down your nerves and come back, you seem a bit edgy.

[NervZero]

Hmm That was just the first season of R+V.. I think they just want to see how well the shows will do, before they devote to much money to them..

[qtipbrit]

Originally Posted by Toua

Yes, that was my point? Now go compare how many light novel and eroge adaptations this April season has. Eroge have D.C.II S.S. and Yotsunoha OVA, light novels have higher numbers.

Also, what offtopic rant? Cool down your nerves and come back, you seem a bit edgy.

Maybe I should use "eroge" instead of "visual novel" since you seem to be confused. Then again, plenty of visual novels aren't eroge, so it wouldn't exactly be the same thing.

Then again, you also said light novel adaptations have been becoming more numerous as of late, so I guess you were expecting us to interpret it as the opposite?

To reiterate, light novels have always been the more popular source for anime. I'd top off the number of visual novel eroge adaptations at maybe 30-40 (with a good fraction of them within last year.), while light novel adaptations are much more numerous.

Originally Posted by NervZero

Hmm That was just the first season of R+V.. I think they just want to see how well the shows will do, before they devote to much money to them..

lolwut?

[SinsI]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

A long anime is better than a short anime.

Actually, he has a point. It's extremely hard to properly develop characters and backstory in a short series, you usually only have enough time to do it decently for the main hero; for everyone else you have to resort to stereotypes.

[LiberLibri]

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

To reiterate, light novels have always been the more popular source for anime. I'd top off the number of visual novel eroge adaptations at maybe 30-40 (with a good fraction of them within last year.), while light novel adaptations are much more numerous.

Not always. Quantitative comparison is required here.

The list of TV Anime in 2004 contains one LN-based title and some VN-based titles including eroges (e.g. "月は東に日は西に")

In 2005, there were 5 LN-based and 3-VN based.

In 2006, 11 LN-based and 9-VN based.

In 2007, 6 LN-based and 12-VN based.

(I counted quite roughly. Please correct if wrong)