Lacus & pacifism: Goals and Intentions

[4Tran]

Well, they still built Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice. And someone would have to steal the DOMs in the first place. I doubt that an independent organization like Terminal would do that kind of thing for Lacus.

Based on RX-78GP04G Gerbera's post, it seems as if ZAFT built a very small number of DOMs, and that they were stolen. The modifications Lacus' followers made seem to be extensive enough that it's pretty much a moot point who it was that built them in the first place. Also, if there was time for the original design to be rejected, it couldn't have happened right after it was built.

[M_Flores]

You know (I should perhaps rewatch the series), but I don't really remember it being fully confirmed that Lacus herself was behind the order/manufacture/steal/development/etc. of the new Justice and Freedom.

Sure, she was the one who showed them to Kira for the first time, but I don't remember any evidence to confirm that it was her idea, her plan, even her Gundams to begin with. It could very well have been Andy that may have negotiated/bargained/made-an-offer-they-can't-refuse/ordered/developed/etc. the new Justice and Freedom, considering apparently he knew about the stock Freedom being rebuilt before GSD among other things. I mean, Andy has followers too doesn't he?

I have more to be said, but I seem to have forgotten them after thinking this idea, so while trying to remember, please correct me if wrong and show me where it was been hinted or confirmed that Lacus was directly behind the new Justice and Freedom.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by M_Flores

You know (I should perhaps rewatch the series), but I don't really remember it being fully confirmed that Lacus herself was behind the order/manufacture/steal/development/etc. of the new Justice and Freedom.

I'm not sure if it was outright stated, but given that the machines are more or less tailor-made for Athrun and Kira, it's a rather natural assumption that she was behind their construction. Nobody else seems to have a reason to build them.

Originally Posted by M_Flores

I mean, Andy has followers too doesn't he?

Presumably, he does, but his followers are Lacus' followers as well. Case in point: Dacosta.

[M_Flores]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I'm not sure if it was outright stated, but given that the machines are more or less tailor-made for Athrun and Kira, it's a rather natural assumption that she was behind their construction. Nobody else seems to have a reason to build them.


Presumably, he does, but his followers are Lacus' followers as well. Case in point: Dacosta.

Yeah, but (although even being a Coordinator), as if she knows or pays attention to the specifications, settings, tailor-makings ofr Kira or Athrun's mobile suits.
IIRC, ∞ Justice wasn't really meant for Athrun to begin with (unless they predicted that we would defect) and I find it odd for Strike Freedom to be 'tailor made' for Kira, since he's never used Dragoons before.

[neilz]

They should really need to show us (hopefully in the movie), who are behind the Terminal. Because for now they look like the pink goddess army which is one of the reason why she looks so omnipotent to some.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by M_Flores

Yeah, but (although even being a Coordinator), as if she knows or pays attention to the specifications, settings, tailor-makings ofr Kira or Athrun's mobile suits.

I don't know if it's important whether Lacus had any input on the details of Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice. It's still very likely that she was the impetus for building those mobile suits in the first place.

Originally Posted by M_Flores

IIRC, ∞ Justice wasn't really meant for Athrun to begin with (unless they predicted that we would defect) and I find it odd for Strike Freedom to be 'tailor made' for Kira, since he's never used Dragoons before.

The obvious point is that they're updated versions of Athrun and Kira's signature mobile suits. While Kira may not have used DRAGOONs before (technically, no-one had used super DRAGOON before), Strike Freedom still performs the full-burst mode volleys as well as Freedom did. I get the feeling that Lacus understood Athrun well enough to believe that he'd come around to her view. After all, that's exactly what she did in Seed.

[Demongod86]

Lacus has teh mind trix! I'm telling you, she's a jedi master...

Okay seriously, nobody could have ordered those suits besides the goddess of pink herself. She took what she had seen in battle and made sure they were applied firsthand to the mobile suits...though I'm wondering why she didn't make SF better looking (it could have been) and why she didn't put a second seat for herself...

But I really think after the close call with providence or that she saw destiny's plans that she had freedom 2 on the go. And Athrun SD'd original justice so...

[OmegaZEROCustom]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Okay seriously, nobody could have ordered those suits besides the goddess of pink herself. She took what she had seen in battle and made sure they were applied firsthand to the mobile suits...though I'm wondering why she didn't make SF better looking (it could have been) and why she didn't put a second seat for herself...

Are you sure NOBODY could have ordered the suits? I mean, we know the OS is the same as the original Freedom and Justice (other than the modded version number at the bottom). Whats to say that after the Freedom and Justice were no longer in ZAFT hands, they didn't begin working on even better versions of the existing units they had. Even with them in the hands of an enemy, they could still see how superior the Gundams were compared to current gen units, so why not out do your own work and devlop new suits that could not only counter a possible next gen suit from the Earth Alliance, but also your own suits? The plans just needed to be in a database for Terminal to obtain and get to Lacus and her people, who could then use the factory in the asteroid to produce the suits. Consider this a possible timeline (all speculative and in no way official events):

CE71: Freedom stolen, Justice given to Athrun (then stolen). ZAFT observes new EA Gundams versus X09A and X10A. Devlopment continues on X13A "Providence". Planning for next-gen successors to X09A and X10A begins, integrating technology from X13A project as well as general fame base from X09A and X10A. War soon ends, Junius Treaty signed. Devlopment ceases on X19A "Knight Justice" and X20A "Super Freedom"***. At this point, the units are based roughly on the X09A and X10A, which changes such as a "Newtype" DRAGOON system added to the X20A.

CE73: Terminal obtains plans for X19A and X20A and provides them to Lacus. Making modificatiosn to plans designed in CE71, changes made include Xiphas 3 rail cannons on X20A, upgraded "Normal Use" DRAGOON system as seen on Legend Gundam swapped out for "Newtype" DRAGOON system on X20A; other such upgraded technologies replace outdated weapons on planned units. Construction begins on X19A, X20A and other stolen plans (DOM Trooper). X19A "Infinite Justice" and X20A "Strike Freedom" brought into service shortly after completion.

A Timeline like this would allow Lacus to order the construction of the units, but not the original design. Being that Terminal is a group of information brokers in a way, Lacus just had to be the highest bidder to get the SF and IJ plans. Lacus is not an engineer. She isn't going to tell them to upgrade the SF with the new DRAGOON system (which she never saw in action other than possibly the weapons pods on the Chaos). Making the SF "better looking" probably isn't top priority on the rapid devlopment of a new Gundam. If she bought semi-complete plans, getting upgrades mounted and simulation tests run is far more important than aestetics and adding a second seat to the cockpit. How often would she be planning to go on a ride along with kira anyway?. With near-complete plans, the rapid devlopment and completion of the SF would make some sense too.

So really, are you sure NO ONE could have ordered the deign, testing and construction of the SF and IJ?


***: I just wanted an excuse to use the original names for the suits...

[Demongod86]

I highly HIGHLY doubt it given the kind of antics we've seen in the show...in GS/GSD, imo, it is the number one gundam universe for "signature suits". So I definitely do think that Freedom/Justice II were made as signature suits for Kira and Athrun...and who else gets dibs on them besides Lacus anyway?

[shaolo]

She could had the original designers of the Freedom and Justice build the SF and IJ for her.

[OmegaZEROCustom]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

I highly HIGHLY doubt it given the kind of antics we've seen in the show...in GS/GSD, imo, it is the number one gundam universe for "signature suits". So I definitely do think that Freedom/Justice II were made as signature suits for Kira and Athrun...and who else gets dibs on them besides Lacus anyway?

But thats akin to the producers saying "Well, of COURSE we HAVE to give Kira and Athrun these new suits". Certainly, in devlopment, the suits were destined for the main characters; to think otherwise would be retarded. But, with an in-universe explanation, nothing has to say Lacus WILL get the SF and IJ plans/suits by virtue of being Lacus and/or her boyfriend and his buddy having been the previous pilots. I recall someone saying in a previous thread that Terminal is an independant third party who, while seeming to favor Lacus, will work with anyone, such as DSSD. If DSSD had said "Hey, we need a mobile suit duo that has all the following specs and cost is no issue.", the Stargazer and the space station could have been defended by a couple of schmoes piloting SF and IJ.

shaolo's idea of getting the original design team is plausible as well. Lacus did have access to the original Freedom (and probably knew about Justice as well), and so the design or construction team may have been sympathisers.

All in all, I doubt Lacus simply said "Hey, lets build 2 new Gundams, plus the DOM's (which are KNOWN to be a stolen ZAFT design), give the Gundams ZAFT model numbers and operating systems and give them to Kira and Athrun." The last time she saw teh Freedom, Kira was plenty able to kick as much ass as ever, so why mess whith what ain't broke? Only AFTER the loss of teh Freedom would they need to rush construction on the SF, which would be convenient to have the existing plans.

[M_Flores]

Now that I think about it, I'm not even sure if weapons or Gundams themselves are even Lacus' department.
Here's my vague theory (although not directly OT) about how the new Gundams were obtained:

*Lacus decides that Kira needs something so he doesnt feel useless anymore.
*She goes to Andy (who probably knows more about MS than she does) and asks for help and decide to find Kira a new weapon.
*Andy or Dacosta or someone, etc. tries to dig in with Terminal, who luckily are favourable to Lacus for some reason, and also have stolen/acquired/etc. new technology from ZAFT.
*Andy or somebody suggests that they make an MS that is reminiscent of Kira's suit, but incorporating new technologies such as beam shield and Super Dragoon.
*Somebody else suggests that since they're making a new Freedom Gundam that specializes in beam spamming, maybe they should create a new Justice as well that specialises in swiss cheese to compliment roles since they apparently had more resources to spare to create another super Gundam.
*The new Justice and Freedom are made, Andy tells Lacus that 'Kira's unit is ready'.
*Phase 39 happens - ANDY tells Kira to go get his new unit, HOWEVER, it is just that Lacus that showed him the way.
*Since Kira already knows Athrun is already in Orb, he decides that he should bring the spare Gundam that happens to be the new Justice Gundam along with him back down to Earth in case Athrun finally gets over his dillemmas and finally makes the decision to fight.


Basically my main point is, it might have been Lacus' idea to have the new Gundams made, but I'm guessing someone else did all the (hard) work to get them. It's just odd when people make it seem that Lacus herself headed the whole production and oversaw the entire development, choose the armaments, nor 'sprinkled Lacus dust' as some people here would say.
My theory is, she may have ordered the meals, doesn't mean she cooked them.

Also take note that everything I've said is just a different look at things - of course, 90% I'm wrong, but maybe this other view might make sense.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by OmegaZEROCustom

But thats akin to the producers saying "Well, of COURSE we HAVE to give Kira and Athrun these new suits". Certainly, in devlopment, the suits were destined for the main characters; to think otherwise would be retarded. But, with an in-universe explanation, nothing has to say Lacus WILL get the SF and IJ plans/suits by virtue of being Lacus and/or her boyfriend and his buddy having been the previous pilots.

To be honest, I don't think that anyone else has any reason to build those mobile suits. The EA had the plans to Freedom and Justice, but their replacements have PLANT-only technology, so they couldn't have been responsible. While PLANT has all the technology required to build the mobile suits, Durandal decided on the completely different design paths of Destiny, Impulse and Providence. For various reasons, he was extremely unlikely to commission Infinite Justice and Strike Freedom. Lacus is therefore pretty much the default possibility.

Originally Posted by OmegaZEROCustom

I recall someone saying in a previous thread that Terminal is an independant third party who, while seeming to favor Lacus, will work with anyone, such as DSSD.

There's no indication that Terminal has anything to do with Infinite Justice and Strike Freedom. The mobile suits were either built or completed at the Factory - an asset that belongs to Lacus.

Originally Posted by OmegaZEROCustom

shaolo's idea of getting the original design team is plausible as well. Lacus did have access to the original Freedom (and probably knew about Justice as well), and so the design or construction team may have been sympathisers.

This is a likely possibility. Lacus had access to the original Freedom and Justice designs, so it's likely that their designs were somehow influenced by her father (it's possible that he was behind their commissioning). That Lacus would have access to their designers as well is not impossible. She also needs someone to run the Factory, and any designers/engineers that were close to her father would be likely candidates for this as well.

Originally Posted by OmegaZEROCustom

All in all, I doubt Lacus simply said "Hey, lets build 2 new Gundams, plus the DOM's (which are KNOWN to be a stolen ZAFT design), give the Gundams ZAFT model numbers and operating systems and give them to Kira and Athrun." The last time she saw teh Freedom, Kira was plenty able to kick as much ass as ever, so why mess whith what ain't broke? Only AFTER the loss of teh Freedom would they need to rush construction on the SF, which would be convenient to have the existing plans.

Lacus knew that she would likely go up against long odds, so it makes sense for her to try to gain as much of a force multiplier as possible. She probably started up the Freedom/Justice production as soon as she reached the Factory (if not earlier). Soldiers and militaries are very unlikely to rest on their laurels just because they have an advantage, and this applies to Lacus' situation as well.

Originally Posted by M_Flores

Basically my main point is, it might have been Lacus' idea to have the new Gundams made, but I'm guessing someone else did all the (hard) work to get them. It's just odd when people make it seem that Lacus herself headed the whole production and oversaw the entire development, choose the armaments, nor 'sprinkled Lacus dust' as some people here would say.

Why would anyone think that she would head up mobile suit construction? While she did exhibit some interest in this subject, I'd imagine that there would be much more productive ways to spend her time.

[M_Flores]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Why would anyone think that she would head up mobile suit construction? While she did exhibit some interest in this subject, I'd imagine that there would be much more productive ways to spend her time.

Good question - I was hoping you'd answer that yourself.
Why people keep saying to me "Lacus made them." is beyond me.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by M_Flores

Good question - I was hoping you'd answer that yourself.
Why people keep saying to me "Lacus made them." is beyond me.

Actually the wording of "Lacus made them" doesn't necessarily mean that she built them herself or oversaw their construction, or anything like that. It could just mean that she commissioned them. For example, Winston Churchill had a hand in the construction of the very first tanks. It's quite fair to say that he "made them" even though he may have done nothing more than to push the idea forward to the right people.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I've been reading the "Favorite Character" thread, but I don't think that it's completely appropriate to discuss characters in too much detail there. It seems like a lot of people think that Lacus is some sort of pacifist, but they also complain that she doesn't act like a pacifist. In my mind, this seems like a rather strange accusation since she never claimed that she believed in pacifism to begin with. So the question is "why do people think that Lacus is some sort of pacifist?"

It's in the way why her team manages to secure peace and love for everybody inthe CE just by manipulating people in order to do her own bidding, something which Yoda would be probably terrified of.

Seriously though, she does those "peace speeches" while Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice decimate everything around them. She accuses other people (Zala, Djibril, Dullindal) of trying to have a future brought about by blood stained hands while she herself is quite guilty of that as well (people dying knowingly for her cause + people who unwittingly died for her cause [Lohengrin people, plus all other grunts/people involved in Freedom's GOD MODING]). She preaches peace and instead intervenes/tries to have peace by fighting and yet accuses other people again by just using war as a tool in order to create more strife, etc., when in truth they are probably fighting for the same things she wants to happen. Well, maybe "accuses" is such a strong word; "imply" would be more like it. So, what Lacus is doing (trying to end all wars by "peaceful" means in order to have peace) is what a pacifist does, except none of that total disarmament whatnots.

On to the points:
I don't really think that Lacus thought that her proper niche was in Orb. In fact, during the inter-war period, she wasn't living in Orb proper - she didn't move their until Reverend Malchio's home was destroyed. I'd imagine that both she and Cagalli wanted to reflect Kira's wish to stay out of the limelight. Political asylum isn't really an issue since there's no sign that Lacus or Kira (in particular, since he's an Orb citizen) had anything to fear from their respective governments.

Since when did Onogoro or wherever that orphanage was built on not a part of Orb?

And Kira/Lacus has nothing to fear? Remember that he defected from the EAF and became part of the Clyne Faction at the end of the war, whereas Lacus was probably on Dully's hit list ever since she decided to shy away from the spotlight...Kira and Lacus probably has nothing to fear, perhaps, on the Orb side of things. Cagalli has protected them completely (but not that completely since Yuna knew of Kira's existence in Orb... ).

Durandal's motives are rather transparent in this situation: his plan hinged on having Meer support his policies, and Lacus was a direct threat to it.

He admitted that Lacus' influence is more than his own so I could see nothing wrong with what he was planning. Dullindal was keen on trying to stop the war (or is shown to be doing so) and needed support for his many plans for the PLANTs, which are not really evil as what the last half of Destiny painted for this very unfortunate man. He used Lacus' image in order to boost soldiers' morale, and that this influence could be also used in order to stop a war (as what he did with the broadcast) and since he has Lacus backing him, there would be no stopping what he plans on doing for his people. I forgot if LOGOS really was evil, but with the likes of the Seirans involved in it and how Cagalli seemed to be upset, it would lead us all to believe that somehow, their hasty intrusion into Dullindal's broadcast was trying to stop the entire public from knowing what is really going on at that point in time. Lacus could be also found guilty of doing such tactics as well (Zala pretty much led to his own downfall and Lacus just rode on public interest at that time in order to bolster her cause) and was shown to "point out" the real culprits (Zala/Le Klueze) of the whole mess and have other people turn against them (well, Zala, that is [because of his own doing]) and by the way how her team was forcing them to do such things (which manifested again in the last episodes of Destiny). It's like a "do something stupid so that we would not be considered war freaks by the way we decimated you" kind of deal. Dullindal also resorted to such dirty tactics (probably) by the way he Sith tricked Shinn into becoming his lap dog (suddenly at the end of Destiny) and the way he manipulated Photoshop in order to edit the Freedom out of the Berlin footage. So, Lacus is not a Goddess pure as what her purists claim time and time again; in fact, she is as "evil" as Dullindal is in the very sense of the word.

Orb's neutrality was broken mostly by outside powers in the Cosmic Era 71 war (Even if it didn't, what the heck does it have to do with Cagalli). Likewise, Cagalli didn't join up with Lacus (technically, Lacus was the one who joined up with Cagalli at the battle of Orb) until Orb had already sided with the EA. There was no neutrality to preserve, only a vain attempt, on Cagalli's sake, to regain control.

The fact that Orb decided to hook up with Lacus/EA meant that their "neutrality" as a nation is moot. They could be plain accused of taking sides.

PLANT can't be only trying to defend itself if Durandal was trying to instigate another war. Lacus' troops, on the other hand, didn't seem to rearm until war had already broken out.

There really wasn't much proof that Dullindal wanted to instigate another war. Think of it like, for instance, your country needs to build up weaponry or whatever in order to defend themselves from any imminent threat; or the way the military seems to be trying to improve their technology so that in times of forced invasions or something they have the capability to neutralize this threat...

Besides, did Dullindal suddenly open fire on anybody prior to the Armory One incident just because he felt his life was in grave danger? He'd rather not use the Impulse until it was also very clear that the Gundam jackers were putting all their lives in jeopardy, and so have to resort to give orders to fire back. Impulse et al were on hand, to be prepared against something that would most likely break out at the drop of a hat (given the political situation they have by then). He wasn't amassing weapons just because he plans to make a war against all other nations. Lacus could be said to be guilty of this too.

Why shouldn't Lacus build up her armaments? She was preparing to go to war against a ruthless and implacable foe, so doesn't it make sense to have as strong a force as possible?

The answer would be very convenient plot device...

I don't think that anyone was a warmonger (although it was both Durandal and Djibril's goals to fight another war); they all knew that the previous war had ended in a postponement rather than a real resolution, so it's to be expected that they decided to arm to the teeth. You seem to be confusing the actions of Archangel and of Lacus and her personal troops. She made no decisions on the behalf of Archangel - all of that was done by a combination of Cagalli, Kira and Murrue. And their goal was nothing as lofty as to stop a war. It was primarily to allow Cagalli to reassert her authority; they made no real attempt to actually end the war between the EA and PLANT.

Dullindal and Djobril knew that the supposed Junius Treaty would be short lived, and so they decided to arm themselves for war, but not exactly arming themselves in order to go to war. As for the Archangel's involvement in that dratted EA/ZAFT standoff, if Lacus disapproves of what they would be doing, then it would have no basis whatever. Besides, for being the political prodigy Lacus is implied to be, she should've known that jumping into the war right away after Cagalli's kidnap would only create more chaos and confusion, something which she is strongly against. And yes, I think one of the characters claimed that they're trying to end the war (I think it was Kira) while he goes around slicing random appendages of MS about him.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

It's in the way why her team manages to secure peace and love for everybody inthe CE just by manipulating people in order to do her own bidding, something which Yoda would be probably terrified of.

But that's not pacifism. Lots of non-pacifists can talk about wanting peace and the like.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

She preaches peace and instead intervenes/tries to have peace by fighting and yet accuses other people again by just using war as a tool in order to create more strife, etc., when in truth they are probably fighting for the same things she wants to happen. Well, maybe "accuses" is such a strong word; "imply" would be more like it. So, what Lacus is doing (trying to end all wars by "peaceful" means in order to have peace) is what a pacifist does, except none of that total disarmament whatnots.

That's untrue. Lacus' speeches simply point out that peace is preferable to war, and that war is not the proper way to decide complex issues. This isn't what pacifists are about at all - they're the ones who state that there's no reason to fight. That's what disavowing the use of violence and war means.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Since when did Onogoro or wherever that orphanage was built on not a part of Orb?

The orphanage was never part of Orb. Remember that it's near where Aegis and Strike were destroyed; these islands were pointedly outside of Orb jurisdiction. As I stated earlier, she didn't move to Orb itself until this abode was first destroyed.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

And Kira/Lacus has nothing to fear? Remember that he defected from the EAF and became part of the Clyne Faction at the end of the war, whereas Lacus was probably on Dully's hit list ever since she decided to shy away from the spotlight...Kira and Lacus probably has nothing to fear, perhaps, on the Orb side of things. Cagalli has protected them completely (but not that completely since Yuna knew of Kira's existence in Orb... ).

Now you're being silly. Kira has always been an Orb citizen. Why would he have anything to fear from Orb for defecting from the EA? This assertion doesn't make even the slightest sense. Lacus didn't have anything to fear from the postwar PLANT government either - her father's ally, Eileen Canaver, conducted a coup, and took power. Durandal didn't enter the picture until some time later.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

He admitted that Lacus' influence is more than his own so I could see nothing wrong with what he was planning.

Nothing wrong? That doesn't make any sense - it's sort of unethical to assassinate people just because you feel that they have more influence than you do. It might not be unexpected of Durandal, but that's hardly the same thing.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Dullindal was keen on trying to stop the war (or is shown to be doing so) and needed support for his many plans for the PLANTs, which are not really evil as what the last half of Destiny painted for this very unfortunate man. He used Lacus' image in order to boost soldiers' morale, and that this influence could be also used in order to stop a war (as what he did with the broadcast) and since he has Lacus backing him, there would be no stopping what he plans on doing for his people.

"Keen on trying to stop the war"! Are you trying to kid me? The war was the very best thing that could have happened for him. Lacus' influence on the soldiers was only a minor reason for using Meer - it wasn't as if he was in any danger of losing the war. What he really needed was for someone to give him enough credibility to implement the Destiny Plan.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

So, Lacus is not a Goddess pure as what her purists claim time and time again; in fact, she is as "evil" as Dullindal is in the very sense of the word.

While I find the idea of an evil Lacus aesthetically pleasing, I'd still like to know what's your basis for asserting this.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

The fact that Orb decided to hook up with Lacus/EA meant that their "neutrality" as a nation is moot. They could be plain accused of taking sides.

I'm not sure what your point is here. Orb allied with the EA and declared war on PLANT. This is obviously not a neutral act, but then again, I never argued that it was. In fact, I've stressed that it was the very opposite. If you really want to be technical about it, it was PLANT that actually struck at Orb first.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

There really wasn't much proof that Dullindal wanted to instigate another war. Think of it like, for instance, your country needs to build up weaponry or whatever in order to defend themselves from any imminent threat; or the way the military seems to be trying to improve their technology so that in times of forced invasions or something they have the capability to neutralize this threat...

It was in Durandal's interest in instigating another war (at the timing of his choice), and he took a few steps in doing so. Namely, the leaking of information for the Armory One attack, and his participation in dropping Junius Seven. I don't blame him for arming up.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

The answer would be very convenient plot device...

What the heck are you talking about?

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Dullindal and Djobril knew that the supposed Junius Treaty would be short lived, and so they decided to arm themselves for war, but not exactly arming themselves in order to go to war.

They're both the same thing really. I still don't find any fault with the nation's respective arms build up.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

As for the Archangel's involvement in that dratted EA/ZAFT standoff, if Lacus disapproves of what they would be doing, then it would have no basis whatever. Besides, for being the political prodigy Lacus is implied to be, she should've known that jumping into the war right away after Cagalli's kidnap would only create more chaos and confusion, something which she is strongly against. And yes, I think one of the characters claimed that they're trying to end the war (I think it was Kira) while he goes around slicing random appendages of MS about him.

As I pointed out earlier, it wasn't Lacus' call to make. Besides, that first attempt wasn't a bad idea (although the execution leaves something to be desired).

I seriously doubt that Kira ever said that he was trying to end the war on his own.

[OmegaZEROCustom]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

To be honest, I don't think that anyone else has any reason to build those mobile suits. The EA had the plans to Freedom and Justice, but their replacements have PLANT-only technology, so they couldn't have been responsible. While PLANT has all the technology required to build the mobile suits, Durandal decided on the completely different design paths of Destiny, Impulse and Providence. For various reasons, he was extremely unlikely to commission Infinite Justice and Strike Freedom. Lacus is therefore pretty much the default possibility.

But like I said above, based on the older engine design, older OS version, yet upgraded tech, its also possible that the designs were completed on paper, and were simply given current generation upgrades. If the Gundams had been developed during the Junius War (wasn't that what it was called?), then the SF may have had things like the longer Xiphas 1 rail cannons versus the newer Xiphas 3's, and a DRAGOON system designed for someone with superior spatial awareness, such as Rau or Mwu, over the newer design. Throw in that the SF may have had a standard shield until they upgraded it with beam shields and we get the version we saw. I never said Durandal COMMISSIONED the design or construction, only that ZAFT MAY have already had the plans in storage, which would have gone unnoticed when Durandal began the devlopment of the Impulse and thE others. Precicely since the SF and IJ plans would be obsolete in his eyes with an inferior engine design is why he would have skipped over them in favor of a newer design. If Terminal then stole the plans, they'd have been ignored by the design teams and such anyway, so stealing plans for suits liek taht would be easy. On top of that, they coudl have gone in, grabbed every plan they could get their hands on in that particular database and then took off. DOM's, ZAKU Prototypes, SF, IJ....who knows what they may have gotten. I know the EA had zilch to do with the SF or IJ, only that BECAUSE teh EA had plans to Freedom and Justice, as well as ZAFT having them, everyone now can plan suits superior to those Gundams, and my take is that the SF and IJ could have, in theory, been designed as ZAFT successors to those suits before the end of the war in CE71.

I won't dispute Lacus had them built; what I'm saying is how certain are we that she comissioned them from the planning stage all the way through to seeing action?

Originally Posted by 4Tran

There's no indication that Terminal has anything to do with Infinite Justice and Strike Freedom. The mobile suits were either built or completed at the Factory - an asset that belongs to Lacus.

True, but nothing in particular says they didn't have anything to do with it either. We know SOMEONE had to bring Lacus the plans for the DOM's since ZAFT had fielded the test type themselves, and Lacus and her people built the ones we see. True, that doesn't say Terminal coudl have done it; it very well coudl have been a defector from ZAFT, which would explain ZAFT tech, current gen stuff like the beam shields and other such additions. Yes, this does also mean that Lacus couyld have had the Gundams designed and built right there are the factory and I accept that. I'm just saying that there are other possibilities.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

This is a likely possibility. Lacus had access to the original Freedom and Justice designs, so it's likely that their designs were somehow influenced by her father (it's possible that he was behind their commissioning). That Lacus would have access to their designers as well is not impossible. She also needs someone to run the Factory, and any designers/engineers that were close to her father would be likely candidates for this as well.

Other than the actual commissioning of the units, I don't think her father would have had too much to do with the construction of the original Freedom and Justice. With Patrick Zala in charge of the Defense Council, followed by becoming Chairman of the PLANT Council, I'd guess the most Seigel Clyne had to do with them was authorizing suits built based on stolen EA tech. Once Zala was in charge, he kicked the fact that the PLANTs had abandoned nuclear technology to the curb and no one could stop him from that (that we could see). This of course ended up withe the NJC's and stuff like DRAGOONs (which could have been a paper tech; useless without a suit with the power capacity to recharge the remote units).

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Lacus knew that she would likely go up against long odds, so it makes sense for her to try to gain as much of a force multiplier as possible. She probably started up the Freedom/Justice production as soon as she reached the Factory (if not earlier). Soldiers and militaries are very unlikely to rest on their laurels just because they have an advantage, and this applies to Lacus' situation as well.

Ture, but do we know how much time passed between her arrival at the Eternal/Factory complex and the completion of the SF? We know it was first launched into combat in PHASE 39, but that doesn't mean too much. What I'm wondering is could they really have devloped a new suit from the ground up, done tests on the spaceframe, atmospheric capabilities, weapons systems, cockpit controls, OS, life support, and engine systems all prior to Kira's arrival? We know the OS wasn't tuned, but Kira has always tuned the OS for his use. If the SF had been started with completed plans they decided to upgrade, how much less would they have been able to cut out?

-If the original design had a shield, drop it, add the beam shields and tap them into the power conduits for the hand plugs. Power flow testing would allow for an upgrade like this to be made and ensure there would be adequate power flow for the shields. Dropping a physical shield shouldn't affect the ability to fly within Earth's atmosphere, on the contrary, it should help it. Aside from adding the new beam shield emmiters and linking them to the power, this shouldn't require much extra time seeing as how it's not a refit to an existing design, and the physical shield wouldn't need to be built.

-Replace the older DRAGOON system design with the new, general use one. This should be easy enough to do assuming it's all software based. If the existing OS designed for the CE71 version of the unit had DRAGOON control built in, modifying it into the CE73 version shouldn't take long.

-Replace Xiphas 1's with Xiphas 3's. A somewhat more major modification if we figure that the Xiphas 1's were more bulky and had the larger folding system, however, the smaller Xiphas 3's would probably assist with the rotational design if it had them. If it didn't and were more like the Freedom in that the rifles would need to dock on the back and the Xiphas cannons were locked in place, this would be a MAJOR modification to add the rifle hardpoints as well as the rotation for the Xiphas 3's. I don't know that I've even seen a ZAFT MS using Xiphas 2's, but it may be that the rotation system was in place for Xiphas 2's wich could be 25% smaller than the Xiphas 1's and 25% larger than Xiphas 3's, making a good middle ground. Of course all speculation.

A lot of the systems still need testing, yes, to ensure they work right, but they don't need to be designed from scratch. Things like the DRAGOON wings would probably require extensive testing compared to the "simple" wings of the Freedom. Add to that the fact that all the other DRAGOON parts we had seen before were more outwardly attached to the backpacks of the suits they were on (not counting ASTRAY since I haven't read much of it) compared to the tight intergration to the wings on the SF.

The things is, if we go by your saying she began work on them when she got into space, unlike the Freedom and Justice, which had a good 5 months minimum for R&D if we assume they started work after they captured the 4 EA Gundams, the SF and IJ would have gotten, what, 8 weeks?

Of course, I could be horribly wrong in all of this and it could just as well be that during the peace time, the Factory workers and Eternal crew spent time just designing new Gundams, and the SF and IJ had already been put through tons of computer simulations and all Lacus had to do was go up there, go "We need new Gundams" and they started building the existing plans THEY had designed. I just find it more likely they built them based on stolen plans tehy modified....hell, maybe a combination of teh two. Stolen plans in CE72, upgraded designs, built in CE73.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by OmegaZEROCustom

But like I said above, based on the older engine design, older OS version, yet upgraded tech, its also possible that the designs were completed on paper, and were simply given current generation upgrades. If the Gundams had been developed during the Junius War (wasn't that what it was called?), then the SF may have had things like the longer Xiphas 1 rail cannons versus the newer Xiphas 3's, and a DRAGOON system designed for someone with superior spatial awareness, such as Rau or Mwu, over the newer design. Throw in that the SF may have had a standard shield until they upgraded it with beam shields and we get the version we saw. I never said Durandal COMMISSIONED the design or construction, only that ZAFT MAY have already had the plans in storage, which would have gone unnoticed when Durandal began the devlopment of the Impulse and thE others.

It's possible, but unlikely for several reasons. As you mentioned, a lot of the technologies that went into Strike Freedom didn't exist at the time. It doesn't make sense to try to introduce untested technologies into what is already a test platform. Plans aren't exactly simple documents - you can't simply make major changes if you feel like it. If Lacus had to modify it as much as you suggest, then it probably have been better if they just designed it off of the original Freedom.

Originally Posted by OmegaZEROCustom

Precicely since the SF and IJ plans would be obsolete in his eyes with an inferior engine design is why he would have skipped over them in favor of a newer design. If Terminal then stole the plans, they'd have been ignored by the design teams and such anyway, so stealing plans for suits liek taht would be easy.

It's more likely the ZAFT overlooked the plans for Freedom and Justice because they had a different design philosophy in mind. Militaries tend not to ignore older ideas altogether simply because they are older.

There's no indication that Terminal had either the capability or the inclination to steal mobile suit plans.

Originally Posted by OmegaZEROCustom

I won't dispute Lacus had them built; what I'm saying is how certain are we that she comissioned them from the planning stage all the way through to seeing action?

I'd say that the chances are fairly high since ZAFT had little reason to create the plans. However, I'm not sure that this question is all that important either. Creating the plans would be trivial compared to actually building the mobile suits.

Originally Posted by OmegaZEROCustom

I'm just saying that there are other possibilities.

True. However, to assert something positively, you have the onus of showing that there's evidence for it. At this point, there's nothing that supports the idea that Terminal had anything to do with the Factory or supplying weapons to Lacus.

Originally Posted by OmegaZEROCustom

Other than the actual commissioning of the units, I don't think her father would have had too much to do with the construction of the original Freedom and Justice. With Patrick Zala in charge of the Defense Council, followed by becoming Chairman of the PLANT Council, I'd guess the most Seigel Clyne had to do with them was authorizing suits built based on stolen EA tech.

Commissioning them is another way of saying authorizing their construction.

Originally Posted by OmegaZEROCustom

Ture, but do we know how much time passed between her arrival at the Eternal/Factory complex and the completion of the SF?

We'll have to wait until the timeline is clarified. It doesn't matter much since mobile suits in Gundam take ridiculously short periods of time to design and construct.

Originally Posted by OmegaZEROCustom

If the SF had been started with completed plans they decided to upgrade, how much less would they have been able to cut out?

The technical difficulties involved in such drastic design modifications are much greater than you make it out to be. I think that by far the greatest would be in changing from a DRAGOON system (a component that has never been tested with Freedom and its HiMAT mode) and replacing it with the super DRAGOON system (a technology that has never been tested period). The thing is, designing is one thing, implementing is a much more difficult job. They're dealing with too many new and untested technologies for it to go smoothly.

Originally Posted by OmegaZEROCustom

The things is, if we go by your saying she began work on them when she got into space, unlike the Freedom and Justice, which had a good 5 months minimum for R&D if we assume they started work after they captured the 4 EA Gundams, the SF and IJ would have gotten, what, 8 weeks?

I think that Lacus started the program even sooner than that - probably as soon as Durandal tried to assassinate her.

As a side note, most mobile suits in the various Gundam universes take only about 2-3 months to design and build. For example, there were only three months between Athrun's report to PLANT and Kira's theft of Freedom.

[OmegaZEROCustom]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

It's possible, but unlikely for several reasons. As you mentioned, a lot of the technologies that went into Strike Freedom didn't exist at the time. It doesn't make sense to try to introduce untested technologies into what is already a test platform. Plans aren't exactly simple documents - you can't simply make major changes if you feel like it. If Lacus had to modify it as much as you suggest, then it probably have been better if they just designed it off of the original Freedom.

True, looking at it that way, it is more likely that the units were built as they were from the start versus being upgraded 2 year old plans. The thing is, if they somehow got all these new ZAFT parts, where was the Hyper Deuterion reactor? Aside from the battery issue on the Destiny in the battle of Orb (which was retconned in the SE's), they seemed to be perfectly capable of running just as long as the NJC based units. Why take the chance of trying to run all these new systems on an outdated engine type? If they got the Super DRAGOONs, beam shield tech and the WoL, why not the Hyper Duterion reactor? I can't believe that someone could get all those weapons specs but NOT the new reactor specs. Sure, I just said that the NJC units appeared capable of running just the same as the HD reactors, but until SF came onto the scene, the only comparison that can be made is the abilities of Freedom versus the later abilities of Destiny. I just don't see them taking a brand new design and using a 2 year old engine system in it, no matter how successful it turned out.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

It's more likely the ZAFT overlooked the plans for Freedom and Justice because they had a different design philosophy in mind. Militaries tend not to ignore older ideas altogether simply because they are older.

I agree; what I meant more was simply what you said. They overlooked the designs because they were of an older generation unit and not the direction they were headed in.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

There's no indication that Terminal had either the capability or the inclination to steal mobile suit plans.

Maybe not directly, but as information brokers, if someone came to them with plans and said "Wanna buy 'em?", if they saw the opportunity to sell them back to the right people, they may very well have been the ones to provide them. They did get the info for the WoL around to the different factions (DSSD->ZAFT->Lacus? I think thats the flow).

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I'd say that the chances are fairly high since ZAFT had little reason to create the plans. However, I'm not sure that this question is all that important either. Creating the plans would be trivial compared to actually building the mobile suits.

True, putting info on paper and actually building the suits are two different beasts. I see what you are getting at here. I suppose it isn't all that important in the end, all taht amtters is they got completed and tehy work.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

True. However, to assert something positively, you have the onus of showing that there's evidence for it. At this point, there's nothing that supports the idea that Terminal had anything to do with the Factory or supplying weapons to Lacus.

True, and not to turn this into any sort of childish bickering of any sort, but doesn't the same ring true for yourself? Nothing directly supports that Terminal didn't have something to do with the SF and IJ. We know someone got Lacus the info about the DOM's. I'm not saying Terminal supplied the weapons themselves, but simply the information. Kind of like those eBay auctions where people sell the INFO on how to get a PS3.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Commissioning them is another way of saying authorizing their construction.

I realize that. I didn't word what I was saying the way I wanted to looking back. Whne you said that her may have had some influence on their designs, I took it as though he had a hand in their construction the way Durandal did. Looking at it now, I realize you mean that his hand in it may have been his comissioning of the suits, which I agree, but I think his influence on the original Freedom and Justice stops there. Once Zala had the OK to build suits based on the stolen EA tech, he took the next step, that being the NJC's and nuclear engines. I doubt Clyne had anything to do with that since Zala was head of the Defense Comittee, and shortly after, Chairman of the Council. Hell, Zala may have planned it so that Clyne didn't find out about the NJC's until after he was out of his post. I may have the timing on this all wrong those since I haven't watched SEED in a while now.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

We'll have to wait until the timeline is clarified. It doesn't matter much since mobile suits in Gundam take ridiculously short periods of time to design and construct.

True. I've been trying to apply some real world timing to a fantasy world. While it might take years to devlop a new fighter craft and weaponry, but not so in SEED...I gotta remember that.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The technical difficulties involved in such drastic design modifications are much greater than you make it out to be. I think that by far the greatest would be in changing from a DRAGOON system (a component that has never been tested with Freedom and its HiMAT mode) and replacing it with the super DRAGOON system (a technology that has never been tested period). The thing is, designing is one thing, implementing is a much more difficult job. They're dealing with too many new and untested technologies for it to go smoothly.

But what I'm saying in regards to the DRAGOONs is that if the Super DRAGOONs work on the same principle for the hardware side of things, and the new system is simply a new function of the OS, then I can't see any good reason why the Super DRAGOONs would be that drastic of an upgrade.

You mention all these untested technologies. Even on a new suit, wouldn't all these be too difficult for things to go smoothly? The Super DRAGOONs, while not explicitly stated, have been tested to some capacity on the Chaos. Even though Sting is an Extended, I don't this he has the super spatial awareness like Rau had. While probably not called "Super DRAGOON's" they were probably as close as one could get to it. Couple that with the fact that the Legend had them prior to the SF's launch, and if a ZAFT insider had access to combat and/or devlopment data, then the SF could have launched with those systems being as close to tested as possible.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

]I think that Lacus started the program even sooner than that - probably as soon as Durandal tried to assassinate her.

If that were the case, I'd be willing to accept that the entire project was handled under Lacus and her people.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

As a side note, most mobile suits in the various Gundam universes take only about 2-3 months to design and build. For example, there were only three months between Athrun's report to PLANT and Kira's theft of Freedom.

True, and like I said above, I have got to try and remeber that instead of applying real world construction times to such projects.