Lacus & pacifism: Goals and Intentions

[4Tran]

I've been reading the "Favorite Character" thread, but I don't think that it's completely appropriate to discuss characters in too much detail there. It seems like a lot of people think that Lacus is some sort of pacifist, but they also complain that she doesn't act like a pacifist. In my mind, this seems like a rather strange accusation since she never claimed that she believed in pacifism to begin with. So the question is "why do people think that Lacus is some sort of pacifist?"

On to the points:

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

As for Lacus, it's not that she found a niche in Orb. Remember that she was wanted and she went to Orb for hiding purposes only. If she did find a niche or as you say so, she would be sort of helping Cagalli in the background, right? Orb also has a non-discrimination policy, that is whythere are Naturals and Coordinators living on that island nation/kingdom. I have no idea if it also grants political asylum as well. And Lacus' location is secret, too. Now, if Lacus wasn't wanted, why would Cagalli go through all that trouble into keeping Lacus' secret safe? And why exactly was Dullindal looking for Lacus?

I don't really think that Lacus thought that her proper niche was in Orb. In fact, during the inter-war period, she wasn't living in Orb proper - she didn't move their until Reverend Malchio's home was destroyed. I'd imagine that both she and Cagalli wanted to reflect Kira's wish to stay out of the limelight. Political asylum isn't really an issue since there's no sign that Lacus or Kira (in particular, since he's an Orb citizen) had anything to fear from their respective governments.

Durandal's motives are rather transparent in this situation: his plan hinged on having Meer support his policies, and Lacus was a direct threat to it.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

And about Cagalli...think. Allying herself with Lacus twice, now who would be dense enough to think that Orb is still "neutral"? Cagalli probably violated the neutral cause in the first Jachin Due War, sort of violated its neutrality cause again when it allied with EA (courtesy of Yuna), and Cagalli for the win by allying with Lacus YET again at the end of Destiny. Who are they kidding?

Orb's neutrality was broken mostly by outside powers in the Cosmic Era 71 war (Even if it didn't, what the heck does it have to do with Cagalli). Likewise, Cagalli didn't join up with Lacus (technically, Lacus was the one who joined up with Cagalli at the battle of Orb) until Orb had already sided with the EA. There was no neutrality to preserve, only a vain attempt, on Cagalli's sake, to regain control.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Yes, and it could also be said for Dullindal/Orb/EA. But prior to this building of Gundams and DOMs, there really wasn't much info coming from ZAFT, and they didn't know who Dullindal was until the assassination attempt on Lacus' life. Prepared for anything? Yes, the aforementioned trio above could also be said to be guilty of this. But being THAT prepared against a potential madman... now who says Lacus isn't Master Yoda in disguise... Why is it when the aforementioned trio did this things...no, ZAFT and EA did these things...they're accused of war mongering whereas Lacus and company aren't blamed for anything else except for the fact that they're just prepared for war? ZAFT didn't really DO anything to the EA until they were forced to defend themselves, and EA didn't attack ZAFT straightaway except during the Armory One incident..there may be skirmishes prior to the events in Destiny...but as Cagalli had presented, everything was in peace (a bit shakily though), not enough to start a full scale war. They're only guilty of trying to defend themselves, as much as Lacus et al are also guilty of.

PLANT can't be only trying to defend itself if Durandal was trying to instigate another war. Lacus' troops, on the other hand, didn't seem to rearm until war had already broken out.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

As I said, she was only guilty of trying to defend herself as much as ZAFT and EA were, but in the latter's case (ZAFT/EA) they're always accused of war mongering when the whole truth is that they're just guilty of trying to defend themselves. As for building Strike Freedom et al out of scrap... no can do, Lacus would always want the BEST for her knights. Flying pieces of junk would only make her fleet very susceptible to more danger, as they could actually explode if Kira presses the HiMAT spam button. Assuming that it was Providence DRAGOON System they used for Strike Freedom...that just made me shudder...and why does Lacus have backup suits? She conveniently knew Freedom would get Freedomed? Why the high technology? Preparedness?

Why shouldn't Lacus build up her armaments? She was preparing to go to war against a ruthless and implacable foe, so doesn't it make sense to have as strong a force as possible?

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Another proof of Lacus' "war mongering"...yes, she didn't even say no when Archangel attacked EA/Orb and ZAFT...why, those two factions weren't even threatening her hide, she just let Kira and Cagalli do the talking, causing more dissent to the already fractured peace by that time. As much as you could say that they are trying to stop a war, now why the heck would you even do something as very aggressive like that in the first place...and yes, lots of innocent people DIED. War always has casualties, but the intention of Archangel to haphazardly stop a war could be likened to war mongering because they didn't stop the war, they just further escalated it. And Lacus didn't even try to stop them!

I don't think that anyone was a warmonger (although it was both Durandal and Djibril's goals to fight another war); they all knew that the previous war had ended in a postponement rather than a real resolution, so it's to be expected that they decided to arm to the teeth. You seem to be confusing the actions of Archangel and of Lacus and her personal troops. She made no decisions on the behalf of Archangel - all of that was done by a combination of Cagalli, Kira and Murrue. And their goal was nothing as lofty as to stop a war. It was primarily to allow Cagalli to reassert her authority; they made no real attempt to actually end the war between the EA and PLANT.

[Tak]

I've always thought Lacus was an instrument in preserving the status quo between PLANT and ZAFT, with Orb acting as a mediator of sorts.

However, that does not translate into pacifism. I cannot understand why people are attributing 'pacifism' to Lacus, since she is anything but.

If she wanted power, she had numerous chances after the first war.

- Tak (Or maybe we are just thinking too hard)

[anselfir]

make no mistake, lacus is an idealistic character, except the ideal in seed is not ideal. that is it. they didn't have the guts to make an anarchistic work, or else kira and athrun would be doing gardening instead of piloting. it is a fight show, of course they are not going to go total pacifism.

[M_Flores]

Originally Posted by anselfir

else kira and athrun would be doing gardening instead of piloting.

lol... can u just imagine...?


BTW before we jump the gun here, can we properly define pacifism/pacifist, for those who are too lazy to open a book or search?
Pacifism is basically a belief of zero weapons and zero fighting, and full disarmament of every single harmful force or medium, is it not?

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Tak

I've always thought Lacus was an instrument in preserving the status quo between PLANT and ZAFT, with Orb acting as a mediator of sorts.

I figured that she was always just trying to make the best of a bad situation.

Originally Posted by Tak

However, that does not translate into pacifism. I cannot understand why people are attributing 'pacifism' to Lacus, since she is anything but.

Pacifists are defined as people who disavow the use of force to serve a goal. Lacus has demonstrated nothing of the sort. About the most that could be said of her is that she doesn't like using violence unless she had to. Of course, since this is a position held by most intelligent people, we have a specific term for it - normal. The only major character in all of Gundam that I would categorize as a pacifist is Relena Peacecraft.

Originally Posted by anselfir

make no mistake, lacus is an idealistic character, except the ideal in seed is not ideal. that is it. they didn't have the guts to make an anarchistic work, or else kira and athrun would be doing gardening instead of piloting. it is a fight show, of course they are not going to go total pacifism.

While Lacus is presented as an ideal character, she is hardly an idealistic one. In fact, she seems quite aware that her actions lead to both violence and death. In fact, I'd categorize her more as a realist.

I don't think that Seed and Destiny try to present pacifism at all, so it's hardly surprising that their characters don't display the corresponding traits.

Originally Posted by M_Flores

BTW before we jump the gun here, can we properly define pacifism/pacifist, for those who are too lazy to open a book or search?
Pacifism is basically a belief of zero weapons and zero fighting, and full disarmament of every single harmful force or medium, is it not?

Your definition is a rather extreme form of pacifism, but it's pretty much correct. Of course, it's quite possible for an individual to hold pacifistic leanings without actively trying to disarm other people. All that's needed is that the individual does not believe in, and does not use, violence. Anyone else should be considered a nonpacifist.

[SNT1]

Originally Posted by dictionary.com

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) -
pac·i·fism /ˈpæsəˌfɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pas-uh-fiz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. opposition to war or violence of any kind.
2. refusal to engage in military activity because of one's principles or beliefs.
3. the principle or policy that all differences among nations should be adjusted without recourse to war.

its safe to say that intervening in wars and battles and building uber MS that can decimate forces from both sides of the war isn't pacifism.

[Demongod86]

Lacus is no Relena...she knows what happens when things get itchy...shit, she lost her father to it...so, of COURSE she's going to come prepared. Come on, the goddess of all that is good and soft and pink always has her knights equipped with the best...

And odds are, she probably had her spy network realize that freedom was getting outclassed by the likes of Destiny and somesuch...so wham bam, upgrade!

[Deacon Blues]

And odds are, she probably had her spy network realize that freedom was getting outclassed by the likes of Destiny and somesuch...so wham bam, upgrade!

Lacus doesn't have a spy network you douche.

Orb's neutrality was broken mostly by outside powers in the Cosmic Era 71 war (Even if it didn't, what the heck does it have to do with Cagalli). Likewise, Cagalli didn't join up with Lacus (technically, Lacus was the one who joined up with Cagalli at the battle of Orb) until Orb had already sided with the EA. There was no neutrality to preserve, only a vain attempt, on Cagalli's sake, to regain control.

Actually Orb maintained neutrality up until the point where the Seiran's decided to sign the treaty with the Earth Alliance. I still wouldn't exactly say they joined forces since Lacus and co kidnapped here and everything. Even still, she didn't really regain control of anything.

Why shouldn't Lacus build up her armaments? She was preparing to go to war against a ruthless and implacable foe, so doesn't it make sense to have as strong a force as possible?

Uh... what? She didn't have that many armaments to begin with... she doesn't believe that fighting is the way to resolve everything...

[anselfir]

While Lacus is presented as an ideal character, she is hardly an idealistic one. In fact, she seems quite aware that her actions lead to both violence and death. In fact, I'd categorize her more as a realist.

I don't think that Seed and Destiny try to present pacifism at all, so it's hardly surprising that their characters don't display the corresponding traits.

I just meant that the audience is asked to identify with her ideals, which are not idealistic when put into practice. Two different meaning for one word in teh same sentence, was my sloppy work.

[Meehlimo]

Originally Posted by Deacon Blues

Lacus doesn't have a spy network you douche.



Actually Orb maintained neutrality up until the point where the Seiran's decided to sign the treaty with the Earth Alliance. I still wouldn't exactly say they joined forces since Lacus and co kidnapped here and everything. Even still, she didn't really regain control of anything.



Uh... what? She didn't have that many armaments to begin with... she doesn't believe that fighting is the way to resolve everything...

I agree with everything u said Deacon expcet the spy. She obviously had one, alot of the technologies on strike freedom were newer zaft tech like the dragoons for one it cant be said that they do or dont use the new system like on legend. That and they got they gaia back i really doubt good ol gilbert just gave them it and they aquired the Dom production line. I dunno how u can say there is no way she had a spy when all that is way to much to ignore.

[Gundam Zero Force]

Darn, I really can't anything becasue I have to watch Seed and Seed Destiny to understand all this . . . .

Real funny though . . it seems the girls in the Gundam Series always seem to be the hot topics and the fan base is always split . .

Like Relena and now this person lol

When I see the Series maybe then I'll have an opinion, but for now all I can do is be a spectator . . . .

[SNT1]

My mind is kinda hazy on GSD (outside of the battles) so I gotta ask: Why do people believe that Lacus uses violence as a last resort? I mean, seeing Meer on TV they shouldv'e already gone public on that. Plus, she's pretty much head-honcho of the "good guys", why didn't she stop Archangel/Freedom's rampage through the battles, when it clearly had nothing to do with them? (I mean, did Lacus just say, "alright Kira, Murrue, AA, do whatever, none of my business"?)Clearly the best thing to have been done is to expose Dullindal with that fake Lacus of his, amirite?

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

It was really a mix of spies AND sympathizers that allowed Lacus to gain so much.

[Meehlimo]

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

It was really a mix of spies AND sympathizers that allowed Lacus to gain so much.

Yea deff u dont get the parts and Mechanics to build them ms just outa nowhere.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Originally Posted by Meehlimo

Yea deff u dont get the parts and Mechanics to build them ms just outa nowhere.

Yep. The spies are where she gets information from and the sympathizers secretly provide plans, parts, soldiers, mechanics, etc, etc.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Deacon Blues

Actually Orb maintained neutrality up until the point where the Seiran's decided to sign the treaty with the Earth Alliance. I still wouldn't exactly say they joined forces since Lacus and co kidnapped here and everything. Even still, she didn't really regain control of anything.

I really only count them allying at the battle of Orb. Up to that point, Cagalli joined up with her own supporters while Lacus was just along for the ride. However, some people would interpret that as somehow "joining up".

On the other note, the Seirans had decided to sign the treaty with Earth from the get go. Even when Cagalli opposed the alliance, it was still a certain thing. Of course, aside from Cagalli's objections, Orb wasn't even slightly neutral in Destiny, so I'm not sure if the exact details are all that important.

Originally Posted by Deacon Blues

Uh... what? She didn't have that many armaments to begin with... she doesn't believe that fighting is the way to resolve everything...

I was responding to Eidolon Sniper's question about why Lacus needed mobile suits. I don't think that a handful of mobile suits represents a lot of weapons, but it's still natural for her to build up as much as possible. While Lacus doesn't seem to think that violence is a good method for resolving grievances, she's rather willing to use it to force her foes to the negotiating table (call it the Nanoha style of diplomacy if you will ).

Originally Posted by SNT1

My mind is kinda hazy on GSD (outside of the battles) so I gotta ask: Why do people believe that Lacus uses violence as a last resort? I mean, seeing Meer on TV they shouldv'e already gone public on that.

Clearly the best thing to have been done is to expose Dullindal with that fake Lacus of his, amirite?

I don't think that this plan would have worked. Without a power base to work from, trying to claim that a powerful leader is a liar doesn't work very well. Lacus didn't really gain such a power base until the battle of Orb, so it makes sense that that's also when she decided to expose Durandal.

Originally Posted by SNT1

Plus, she's pretty much head-honcho of the "good guys", why didn't she stop Archangel/Freedom's rampage through the battles, when it clearly had nothing to do with them? (I mean, did Lacus just say, "alright Kira, Murrue, AA, do whatever, none of my business"?)

Lacus wasn't in charge aboard Archangel. She wasn't involved in the decision-making process, nor was it really her call. Of course, her lack of disapproval signals tacit support for what they were doing, but I'm not sure that she thought that their chances of winning the Orb fleet over were all that high. Also note that she was only involved in their first battle against Minerva; this was also Cagalli's first attempt, and it was the one that had a modest chance of suceeding.

[Deacon Blues]

Originally Posted by Meehlimo

I agree with everything u said Deacon expcet the spy. She obviously had one, alot of the technologies on strike freedom were newer zaft tech like the dragoons for one it cant be said that they do or dont use the new system like on legend. That and they got they gaia back i really doubt good ol gilbert just gave them it and they aquired the Dom production line. I dunno how u can say there is no way she had a spy when all that is way to much to ignore.

*cough* Stolen mobile suit *cough* Lacus could very well of paid Terminal, which if you aren't familiar with, you need to check the thread, for finding out information. Sure, she could have had "spies" which are merely sympathizers working within ZAFT, but to say that she had a "network" is highly unplausible. A "spy network" in the terms of CE, is nothing shy of what Terminal is. Meaning... there probably aren't many.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Deacon Blues

*cough* Stolen mobile suit *cough* Lacus could very well of paid Terminal, which if you aren't familiar with, you need to check the thread, for finding out information. Sure, she could have had "spies" which are merely sympathizers working within ZAFT, but to say that she had a "network" is highly unplausible. A "spy network" in the terms of CE, is nothing shy of what Terminal is. Meaning... there probably aren't many.

Unless Terminal was building and stealing mobile suits for Lacus, her own intelligence apparatus would have to be fairly substantial. It's likely to be at least as large as the one she had in Seed. Of course, Lacus' agents were likely to be active only in PLANT, so it's far less diverse than Terminal is.

[Deacon Blues]

No one was specifically building mobile suits for her. From what I remember, they stole the Dom suits from ZAFT shortly after they were completed... D:

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Actually, from what I read, the DOM (the Original Spec Type, NOT the Trooper) was actually a REJECTED design by ZAFT that was given to Lacus by sympathizers, who then had it modified into the DOM Trooper.


From MAHQ: (Original Spec Type)

In the post-war era, ZAFT begins to develop its next generation of mobile suits, dubbed the "New Millennium" series. One such design is the ZGMF-XX09T DOM (Defensive Obliterator Magnificent) Trooper Original Spec Type, a prototype design that never makes it to full production. The DOM Trooper's main armament is its pair of Giga-Launcher bazookas. It can also carry a "Fodio" drill lance and a defensive shield. Finally, the DOM Trooper is equipped with a chest-mounted scattering beam gun that emits a cloud of beam particles similar the energy from a beam rifle blast. Since the suit was rejected by ZAFT, it was aqcuired and modified by forces loyal to Lacus Clyne. The modified ZGMF-XX09T DOM Trooper units make their debut in C.E. 74 during ZAFT's attack on the Orb Union, codenamed Operation Fury.



From MAHQ: (Trooper)

In the post-war era, ZAFT begins to develop its next generation of mobile suits. One such design is the ZGMF-XX09T DOM Trooper Original Spec Type, a prototype design that never makes it to full production. Instead, the DOM (Defensive Obliterator Magnificent) Trooper's production line is acquired by forces loyal to Lacus Clyne. Several upgrades are performed to the original design. The Knight Wizard pack is dropped and replaced with an EZ Wizard pack to mount a beam saber. The shield and drill lance are dropped in favor of "Solidus Fulgor" beam shield generators used by ZAFT's latest model mobile suits ZGMF-X42S Destiny Gundam and ZGMF-X666S Legend Gundam.

The new version of the DOM Trooper is first deployed in C.E. 74 during ZAFT's attack on the Orb Union, codenamed Operation Fury. Piloted by three former ZAFT pilots, the DOM Troopers make an impressive show of force against the ZAFT forces with their coordinated "Jet Stream Attack." When the battle moves to space, the DOM Troopers participate in the battle to capture the Requiem cannon from ZAFT. During the battle, lead pilot Hilda Harken's unit is damaged in combat. Soon after, the death of ZAFT Supreme Council Chairman Gilbert Durandal and the destruction of the mobile space fortress Messiah mark the end of the war.