What Gundam shows count as war anime? [All shows]

[PowerBarEX]

Yea i know noone probably reads this anyway, but after watching Zeta I had to disagree.

All UC shows (the only ones I haven't watched are F91 and ZZ) are good war-anime that should meet 4tran's criteria. They all carry war-themes and points of conflicts that are realistic in terms of war. Although there will be some elements that AREN'T consistent to the harsh realities of war and the typical war-epic such as Saving Private Ryan, you also can't expect to watch Saving Private Ryan for 50 episodes (like 15+ hours) without losing significant interest.

There are plenty of war-politics and positioning involved in Zeta, the strenghts of the Titans, AEUG, and Axis are clearly defined throughout the series and there are plenty of basic war strategies such as flanking and formations throughout the series. You also get a good story out of Kamille who undergoes a realistic and significant change in character throughout the series.

But, if you're going to look for Saving Private Ryan in Gundam, you'll be disappointed because 1) This is a Sci-fi/War epic, not simply a War-epic. 2) As it is Gundam, the main character and crew will be subject to favorable treatment because Gundam and its crew ARE NOT you're average soldier/crew. and 3)The scope of Gundam is never focused on a grand scale for an extended period of time because you'll lose scope of the main characters, which drive the series.

So IMO, MSG and Zeta meet both requirements fairly well, although not completely, and thus, that's what makes Gundam such a unique mecha anime. If there is any big counterargument to what I've just said, it would probably be Macross and Robotech, which btw i've liked just as much for its similarities and differences to Gundam.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Yea i know noone probably reads this anyway, but after watching Zeta I had to disagree.

Cool. I'll limit all my comments to Zeta since that's what you brought up.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

All UC shows (the only ones I haven't watched are F91 and ZZ) are good war-anime that should meet 4tran's criteria. They all carry war-themes and points of conflicts that are realistic in terms of war. Although there will be some elements that AREN'T consistent to the harsh realities of war and the typical war-epic such as Saving Private Ryan, you also can't expect to watch Saving Private Ryan for 50 episodes (like 15+ hours) without losing significant interest.

Actually, I was just used Saving Private Ryan as an example of the kind of immediacy a show can produce. I don't really expect any show to be like it. Then again, aside from its depiction of Omaha Beach, I don't think it's very realistic either. In the case of Gundam, having war themes is nowhere near enough to making a show into a good war anime.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

There are plenty of war-politics and positioning involved in Zeta, the strenghts of the Titans, AEUG, and Axis are clearly defined throughout the series and there are plenty of basic war strategies such as flanking and formations throughout the series. You also get a good story out of Kamille who undergoes a realistic and significant change in character throughout the series.

I agree that there is a lot of talk about politics in Zeta, but I felt that the problem that it isn't presented very well. We don't even have a vague idea as to how much resources any of the factions can contribute to the war. Also, what you described as "flanking and formations" are merely tactics (and not particularly impressive ones either), not strategies. Character change would apply more to a "coming of age" theme than it would a war story.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

But, if you're going to look for Saving Private Ryan in Gundam, you'll be disappointed because 1) This is a Sci-fi/War epic, not simply a War-epic. 2) As it is Gundam, the main character and crew will be subject to favorable treatment because Gundam and its crew ARE NOT you're average soldier/crew. and 3)The scope of Gundam is never focused on a grand scale for an extended period of time because you'll lose scope of the main characters, which drive the series.

1. To truly qualify as a Science Fiction/War epic, it's necessary to pay more than lip-service to military conventions. Zeta Gundam doesn't feel like a war epic at all.
2. Being a Gundam show is no excuse for anything.
3. Nonsense. It's not exactly hard to give an impression of the bigger picture even if you want to concentrate on a small part of a conflict. This is especially true given that Zeta shows us the leaders of all the factions!

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

So IMO, MSG and Zeta meet both requirements fairly well, although not completely, and thus, that's what makes Gundam such a unique mecha anime. If there is any big counterargument to what I've just said, it would probably be Macross and Robotech, which btw i've liked just as much for its similarities and differences to Gundam.

In what way does Zeta fulfill any of the qualities that make up a war anime?

[PowerBarEX]

Actually, I was just used Saving Private Ryan as an example of the kind of immediacy a show can produce. I don't really expect any show to be like it. Then again, aside from its depiction of Omaha Beach, I don't think it's very realistic either. In the case of Gundam, having war themes is nowhere near enough to making a show into a good war anime.

I took your Saving Private Ryan example as an example of a good war story (which I'd agree). Whether it is realistic enough really depends on how realistic the viewer wants it to be.

I agree that there is a lot of talk about politics in Zeta, but I felt that the problem that it isn't presented very well. We don't even have a vague idea as to how much resources any of the factions can contribute to the war. Also, what you described as "flanking and formations" are merely tactics (and not particularly impressive ones either), not strategies. Character change would apply more to a "coming of age" theme than it would a war story.

Well, what exactly do you want in terms of resources? It sounds like you want number crunching. I've never seen number crunching in an epic-movie. But I have seen number crunching in documentaries such as the military, history and discovery channel. The same with tactics...while I admit, it would be great if they were able to delve into some neat tactics, I'm pretty sure thorough detailed explanations of such tactics is more along the lines of a documentary than a war-epic/series.

1. To truly qualify as a Science Fiction/War epic, it's necessary to pay more than lip-service to military conventions. Zeta Gundam doesn't feel like a war epic at all.
2. Being a Gundam show is no excuse for anything.
3. Nonsense. It's not exactly hard to give an impression of the bigger picture even if you want to concentrate on a small part of a conflict. This is especially true given that Zeta shows us the leaders of all the factions!

1)Ok then, tell me what is a war-epic to you? How about War-epic/anime? In terms of anime, I can't really think of one that's more fitting than Macross and Gundam.
2)Excuse for being another Saving Private Ryan? Gundam is unique in that it is set in the hypothetical and fictionalized future utilizing machines that have yet to have arrived in the real world. Can you really draw a strict comparison between those aspects and WWII era Private Ryan?
3)Ok then, name an epic that does so? One that can give a bigger picture and give the more intimate setting with a large cast of characters that Gundam provides? Maybe Macross/Robotech if i remember correctly, and I'd like to think Igloo did a good job also, but I think it would still take away from portrayal of the main characters of which they spent so much time on. I think Zeta does a good job. Yes they do show the leaders of the conflict. What exactly are you thinking in terms of scope? I'm thinking about whole troop movement and depictions of vast armies and their functions.

In what way does Zeta fulfill any of the qualities that make up a war anime?

In your original post, you wanted something that tackles the overall aspects. MSG and Zeta do just that and they do it fairly convincingly IMO. In fact, Gundam's realism as opposed to most other mecha anime is what made it so popular in the first place. From the sounds of it, you're looking for more of a documentary than a series. I love war documentaires, but I just don't think you can fit that kind of detail, add in a story and cater to a certain VIEWER demographic successfully all in one shot IMO. Look at the CE remakes, they try to pull off the same thing and they just couldn't do it. But hey, you tell me a war-anime that meets your standards and i'll be sure to check it out.

[Dan the Man]

I don't think any individual Gundam series truly portrays war in it's entirety, but to make a series like that may involve too many people, and the lack of main characters might be off-putting to some. If anything really portrays war accurately, it's the entire One Year War collection of Gundam series'. Each one in and of themselves doesn't fully depict war, but all of them combined can show the true scale of the conflict. In the numerous series (First, 08th, 0080, IGLOO, 0083) You see the war from youths forced into combat, hardened soldiers in a remote conflict, the war from a child's perspective, the views of a shipping barge brought into weapons testing and examination, and the remnants of Zeon giving all they have into one final offensive against the Federation. Numerous MSV pilot stories and other video game and manga side stories add on to the scale, showing the war from dozens, if not hundreds of different perspectives.

So in conclusion, I agree that a Gundam series doesn't really show the broad scale of a full fledged war, (possibly due to it restricting character development and adding too many people to keep track of) but if numerous stories of the same time period can help to add a sense of the war being a large scale conflict, instead of being nothing but random waves of MS being flung at an angst-ridden teenager and his/her super-powered Gundam inbetween periods of character and story development.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

1)Ok then, tell me what is a war-epic to you? How about War-epic/anime? In terms of anime, I can't really think of one that's more fitting than Macross and Gundam.

He has no contained answer for this...Trust me you're not the first to ask this question of him (I've lost count)...IMO what he wants doesn't exist and honestly can't exist outside of some documentary nuainced effort (FLAG perhaps is the best example I can think of at this moment--Not necessarily the content but the mood)...When you are talking about character-based war drama you live and die with the micromanagement of the war via the character interactions...Gundam series like Zeta, MSG, 8th MS Team, and CCA deal with many tactical and strategic points whether it be highly political (like Char's role in Zeta) or highly analytical (Like Char's startegic plannings in CCA) or highly individual (Like Char in MSG)...There are countless amounts of tactical fodder that exist in Gundam..It's just the level of what you are expecting that is in question (and impressions of this vary on the mentality of the watcher)...


A watcher going into Gundam expecting some percieved Alexander the Great or Patton type of individualistic view (in-terms of sheer battle strategem) is asking for too much out of this genre...Most who love Gundam (especially UC) love that realistic approach to the scenerios given to the character's of interest (Over an umbrella view of just the war itself)...One person's view of strategy can be how Amuro gets away from 3 DOMS or Rey and Shinn planning for FREEDOM's weakness, another person's view can be strictly the preparations and scaled war-game aspect of this (which Gundam skims over for the most part--Also this is something the show has never been based upon)...For the same reason you don't go into a candy store looking for BBQ, you don't go into Gundam pining for a fleshed-out version of the board game RISK...

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

I took your Saving Private Ryan example as an example of a good war story (which I'd agree). Whether it is realistic enough really depends on how realistic the viewer wants it to be.

Well, even if I don't think that Saving Private Ryan is very realistic, it still does manage to capture the feel of war very well. For that aspect, I would consider it a good war story as well; I just don't necessarily think that it should be emulated. Realism is a nice bonus, but I don't think that it's absolutely necessary for depicting a good war story.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Well, what exactly do you want in terms of resources? It sounds like you want number crunching. I've never seen number crunching in an epic-movie. But I have seen number crunching in documentaries such as the military, history and discovery channel. The same with tactics...while I admit, it would be great if they were able to delve into some neat tactics, I'm pretty sure thorough detailed explanations of such tactics is more along the lines of a documentary than a war-epic/series.

I'm not really looking for number crunching per se - I just want to get a sense of scale. It'd also really help to know what the rest of AEUG and the Titans were up to when Zeta focuses on just Argama and Camille. Without any such indicators, there's a real disconnect between the story and the war that's supposedly going on.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

1)Ok then, tell me what is a war-epic to you? How about War-epic/anime? In terms of anime, I can't really think of one that's more fitting than Macross and Gundam.
2)Excuse for being another Saving Private Ryan? Gundam is unique in that it is set in the hypothetical and fictionalized future utilizing machines that have yet to have arrived in the real world. Can you really draw a strict comparison between those aspects and WWII era Private Ryan?
3)Ok then, name an epic that does so? One that can give a bigger picture and give the more intimate setting with a large cast of characters that Gundam provides? Maybe Macross/Robotech if i remember correctly, and I'd like to think Igloo did a good job also, but I think it would still take away from portrayal of the main characters of which they spent so much time on. I think Zeta does a good job. Yes they do show the leaders of the conflict. What exactly are you thinking in terms of scope? I'm thinking about whole troop movement and depictions of vast armies and their functions.

I don't think that there are all that many good war anime out there. I'd say that SDF Macross is a much better example than any of the Gundam shows are. Another show that would fit this descriptor would be Legend of Galactic Heroes.

As an aside, Saving Private Ryan itself doesn't qualify as an epic. I think that you're concentrating too much on my comparison between that film and Gundam. I used it only as a well-known example of one of the approaches for capturing the feel of a war.

In my opinion, any work that depicts the leaders of a war without also giving a good impression of the bigger picture has failed in that aspect. As it stands, we have little idea of what's going on outside of the immediate action in Zeta despite the amount of time devoted to Scirocco and Haman and the like.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

In your original post, you wanted something that tackles the overall aspects. MSG and Zeta do just that and they do it fairly convincingly IMO. In fact, Gundam's realism as opposed to most other mecha anime is what made it so popular in the first place. From the sounds of it, you're looking for more of a documentary than a series. I love war documentaires, but I just don't think you can fit that kind of detail, add in a story and cater to a certain VIEWER demographic successfully all in one shot IMO. Look at the CE remakes, they try to pull off the same thing and they just couldn't do it. But hey, you tell me a war-anime that meets your standards and i'll be sure to check it out.

You didn't bring up any points that answered my question. You just restated your claims. Again, are there any specific reasons why you think that Zeta has any qualities that qualify it as a war anime?

Originally Posted by Dan the Man

I don't think any individual Gundam series truly portrays war in it's entirety, but to make a series like that may involve too many people, and the lack of main characters might be off-putting to some. If anything really portrays war accurately, it's the entire One Year War collection of Gundam series'. Each one in and of themselves doesn't fully depict war, but all of them combined can show the true scale of the conflict. In the numerous series (First, 08th, 0080, IGLOO, 0083)

I agree. The One Year War period is the one where it actually feels like there's a war going on. A war that matters and affects the characters in many ways. The other wars seem like the characters are participating because they feel like it rather than a sense of necessity.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

He has no contained answer for this...Trust me you're not the first to ask this question of him (I've lost count)...IMO what he wants doesn't exist and honestly can't exist outside of some documentary nuainced effort (FLAG perhaps is the best example I can think of at this moment--Not necessarily the content but the mood)...

I guess you missed my original point then - Mobile Suit Gundam itself is a fairly good depiction of war, but none of its immediate successors seem to be. And I posed the question of whether they should be considered war anime.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

When you are talking about character-based war drama you live and die with the micromanagement of the war via the character interactions...Gundam series like Zeta, MSG, 8th MS Team, and CCA deal with many tactical and strategic points whether it be highly political (like Char's role in Zeta) or highly analytical (Like Char's startegic plannings in CCA) or highly individual (Like Char in MSG)...There are countless amounts of tactical fodder that exist in Gundam..

In case you forgot, neither 08th MS Team nor Char's Counterattack are TV shows. I'm also less interested in discussing Mobile Suit Gundam since I already think that it's a pretty good depiction of war. It's the other non-Cosmic Era shows I was interested in.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

A watcher going into Gundam expecting some percieved Alexander the Great or Patton type of individualistic view (in-terms of sheer battle strategem) is asking for too much out of this genre...Most who love Gundam (especially UC) love that realistic approach to the scenerios given to the character's of interest (Over an umbrella view of just the war itself)...One person's view of strategy can be how Amuro gets away from 3 DOMS or Rey and Shinn planning for FREEDOM's weakness, another person's view can be strictly the preparations and scaled war-game aspect of this (which Gundam skims over for the most part--Also this is something the show has never been based upon)...For the same reason you don't go into a candy store looking for BBQ, you don't go into Gundam pining for a fleshed-out version of the board game RISK...

This in no way addresses any of my points. Please read a little more carefully before replying.

[Blaat]

Perhaps the reason why the other UC Gundams don't feel like a war anime is because it isn't or doesn't feel like you're in an total war? In fact only the first Gundam presents a war between two nations, while the other wars (or conflicts whatever) were between elite groups, resistance and remnants of a nation that no longer exists.

Just my 2 cents.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by 4tran

This in no way addresses any of my points. Please read a little more carefully before replying.

I'm just addressing watchers who have no practical idea what Gundam is about and think words like "strategy" only have macro-meanings as it pertains to war...Since you don't fall under any of this you have nothing to worry about...

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

I'm just addressing watchers who have no practical idea what Gundam is about and think words like "strategy" only have macro-meanings as it pertains to war...Since you don't fall under any of this you have nothing to worry about...

Your statement didn't address any of my points, any of PowerBarEx's points, and it has nothing to do with the topic. Therefore, my comment stands. Also, I was saying in general that you should read more carefully before replying.

[Dan the Man]

Originally Posted by Blaat

Perhaps the reason why the other UC Gundams don't feel like a war anime is because it isn't or doesn't feel like you're in an total war? In fact only the first Gundam presents a war between two nations, while the other wars (or conflicts whatever) were between elite groups, resistance and remnants of a nation that no longer exists.

Just my 2 cents.

That is very true. The One Year War was a complete global conflict, with (to my knowlege) only Side 6 as a neutral party. The fighting then was so intense that the opening week saw over 3 billion people dead, though it lessened after the Antarctic Treaty. In Zeta, the fight is between an anti-Zeon police faction, and a group of rebels backed by independant companies. There was no global conflict, which is the same with Counterattack, with only a small taskforce taking on Neo Zeon. So, 4tran, that may be why the later series seem lackluster in depicting war, due to the fact that fery few, if any of the following conflicts really involve a war on such a large scale as the original.

[4Tran]

I forgot to respond to this earlier:

Originally Posted by Blaat

Perhaps the reason why the other UC Gundams don't feel like a war anime is because it isn't or doesn't feel like you're in an total war? In fact only the first Gundam presents a war between two nations, while the other wars (or conflicts whatever) were between elite groups, resistance and remnants of a nation that no longer exists.

You bring up a good point - Mobile Suit Gundam is the only one that's really about a total war. However,
even smaller wars can be quite intense for the people fighting them. Besides, Mobile Suit Gundam doesn't really feel like a total war; what it does better than its successors is in presenting the scope of the conflict and the stakes involved. There simply seems to be much more of a sense that lots of things are going on, and that we only see a small part of it.

Then again, my original point was more along the lines of which of the other Gundam shows should be considered as war anime. If the others don't feel like wars, then wouldn't that disqualify them?

Originally Posted by Dan the Man

So, 4tran, that may be why the later series seem lackluster in depicting war, due to the fact that fery few, if any of the following conflicts really involve a war on such a large scale as the original.

To be honest, I don't think that Mobile Suit Gundam was that great at depicting a total war. Most of the events you described happened in the background, and they tended to have very little impact on the show itself. If you missed out on the fact that billions of people had already died, it wouldn't have affected the way you viewed the show whatsoever. I mostly give Mobile Suit Gundam a passing grade because it happens to depict the other elements of warfare fairly well.

[Crusader]

I'd say Wing becuase of it's feel, and its closeness to guerilla warfare, Not to mention the heavy inclusion of politics and philosphy. For somereason when i think of Wing, i think about the Iraqi war. Namely becuase of the way Wing presented itself.

Crud i was going somewhere with this.

jeeze you lose your train of thought for one second and can't recover. I'll post more if i remember.

[Zeon]

Total War Animes:
Gundam 08th MS Team
Mobile Suit Gundam

War Animes (That mainly focus on the cost of war on the Main Cast)
Mobile Suit Gundam ( A bit of everything I'd say)
Gundam Zeta (So I assume Double Zeta as well)
Gundam 0083
Gundam 0083
Gundam Seed
Gundam Wing

Non War:
Turn-A (IS debateable)
G Gundam (Terrible series IMO)

Everything involving The One Year as said before here invovled the entire world aside from Side Six, kind of like WWII.

I strongly would agree with the original Zeon sentiments, and the latter neo zeon movments, but during the one year war they were easily the villians.

[Crusader]

Double Zeta didn't really feel like a full scale war, namely cause thier were only like two major battles featured in the series, well three if you can't the battle before the colony drop. Those major conflicts consisted of small numbers.

The battle in Dakar was Aeug/Karaba vs Neo zeon and those numbers were small. then later on the civil war which was Zeon, and even then it didn't really affect anything but the Zeeks.

[PowerBarEX]

Again, are there any specific reasons why you think that Zeta has any qualities that qualify it as a war anime?

Ok...lets start with your original requirements...1) Strategic elements: We can start with the fact that there's constant strategic planning when Bright orders to sortie the mobile suits and which and how many suits he deploys. One specific incident involved Bright deploying all his mobile suits and then falling prey to a diversionary tactic with the Argama facing Yazan/Jerid (one of these pilots). Another point are the various strategies used to take down the Gundam. Jerid and Kacricon employ a strategy where two mobile suits appear as one and nearly defeats a rather green Kamille. Another method involves an electrocutive net that also almost defeats Kamille if not for the intervention of Fa. And last but not least what about all the elements involving the colony drop, the colony laser cannon, the Argama treating itself as bait to lure them into the path of the laser cannon, and the Radish tossing strategy and wisdom out the window and destroying itself to protect Ema? There are also the various political positioning moves involving Haman, Scirocco, Ajimov and Char?

2) Scope of the conflict: This is probably Zeta's weakest point considering how well Macross/Robotech and its portrayal of war. Zeta focuses (as all gundam do) on a tight cast of characters surrounding the star gundam pilot. Now what blaat said I think is very valid, while the One Year War is a full scale World War type of thing, Zeta Gundam focuses on a time of insurgents against a large domineering force. In a way, you can liken it to the insurgents and rebel forces in the middle east opposing U.S. and the like, except that the insurgent have an ace in the hole called a gundam, an ace pilot, and technological equivalency.
Now before I go off on a tangent, one of the things you said were that you couldn't even get a vague idea of how much resources each force is contributing to the war:

I just want to get a sense of scale. It'd also really help to know what the rest of AEUG and the Titans were up to when Zeta focuses on just Argama and Camille. Without any such indicators, there's a real disconnect between the story and the war that's supposedly going on.

However, I disagree...if you can 'read between the lines' throughout the events of Zeta Gundam, you can most certainly know who has more resources and who has the upper hand. In the beginning, its obvious the Titans/EF are the domninant force and that the AEUG is an underground rebel insurgency. I think that's clear from the start. The TItan's greatest extent of their power are when they're given total control by the EF bureacrats and they start using forms of large scale destruction on their enemies without hesitation (ie. colony drop, laser cannon, several attempts at gassing colonies).

When Haman and the Zeon show up, they're the X factor. Noone knows their relative strength, however, they're formidable enough that both sides would try to form an alliance with them, and Char has to swallow his pride in order for the AEUG to form its alliance. The Titan's strength then begins a rapid decline starting with the prevention of the colony laser, the destruction of the Zedan Gate, Ajimov's followed by Bask and Paptimus' death and destruction of the fleet by the colony laser. This leaves Axis Zeon as the dominant power heading into ZZ Gundam. If you wanted numbers, the closest you'll probably get is the attack on Jaburo in which someone says the AEUG had x amount of warships (between 15 and 20 if i remember correctly).

You always have a sense of scale of forces and who's the dominant force in the series. In fact, you can even get a sense of how immense the last battle involving the three factions were by witnessing all the deaths towards the end. Zeta gets criticized for how the deaths get to the point where you're desensitized but I think that's another POINT and EXAMPLE of the scope and story exhibited by Zeta. The intensity was greatest at the end, therefore its only logical to experience as many deaths as there were at the end.

3) A good war story: What's wrong with a story focused on a child who comes of age because he's thrown into the fires of war? I know its been tried and done many times before (namely every other Gundam series), but that doesn't make it any LESS of a war story. Kamille loses his parents to the ravages of war, matures to a point where he's an ace gundam pilot and at the end, suffers from the constant death and loss he feels at the end of the war.

I know its more out there than usual, but I took his mental breakdown as all the deaths catching up to him rather than just an attack by a newtype. In fact, if there wasn't such a thing as a newtype, wouldn't it be fitting that Kamille and his experiences in this war all catch up to him? I'm sure that's a discussion for another thread...anyway, I think these are enough points to prove that Zeta has merits as a war anime.

[PowerBarEX]

In fact, I don't see how you can really say that MSG is more of a war anime than Zeta in terms of scope. The Argama had more joint missions with other forces (ie. Karaba and the Radish) than White Base, which was rather uniquely alone as a single carrier throughout MSG until the end. The Argama on the other hand almost always has the Radish as its sister ship and coordinates many of its actions with Karaba's.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Crusader

I'd say Wing becuase of it's feel, and its closeness to guerilla warfare, Not to mention the heavy inclusion of politics and philosphy. For somereason when i think of Wing, i think about the Iraqi war. Namely becuase of the way Wing presented itself.

I'd say that you make a good point. Wing certainly tries to create the feel of a larger conflict. However, the story's too incoherent to pull it off properly.

Originally Posted by Crusader

Double Zeta didn't really feel like a full scale war, namely cause thier were only like two major battles featured in the series, well three if you can't the battle before the colony drop. Those major conflicts consisted of small numbers.

How can you qualify it as a major conflict if only small numbers are involved?

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Ok...lets start with your original requirements...1) Strategic elements:<SNIP>

When I was talking about strategic elements, I was referring specifically to military strategy. All the points that you brought up would be better classified as tactics.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

There are also the various political positioning moves involving Haman, Scirocco, Ajimov and Char?

This wouldn't have been too bad if Zeta didn't completely flub the political part.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

However, I disagree...if you can 'read between the lines' throughout the events of Zeta Gundam, you can most certainly know who has more resources and who has the upper hand. In the beginning, its obvious the Titans/EF are the domninant force and that the AEUG is an underground rebel insurgency. I think that's clear from the start. The TItan's greatest extent of their power are when they're given total control by the EF bureacrats and they start using forms of large scale destruction on their enemies without hesitation (ie. colony drop, laser cannon, several attempts at gassing colonies).

Oh, it's obvious that AEUG is the underdog, but there's not really any more information than that. We don't know if there are any operations on the other Sides, or anything like that. Heck, we're not even given a clear indication as to whether AEUG and the Titans committed all of their forces at the last battle.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

3) A good war story: What's wrong with a story focused on a child who comes of age because he's thrown into the fires of war?

Nothing, as long as it feels like a war. However, just because it focuses on a child coming of age in the middle of a war doesn't make it a war story either.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

In fact, I don't see how you can really say that MSG is more of a war anime than Zeta in terms of scope. The Argama had more joint missions with other forces (ie. Karaba and the Radish) than White Base, which was rather uniquely alone as a single carrier throughout MSG until the end. The Argama on the other hand almost always has the Radish as its sister ship and coordinates many of its actions with Karaba's.

The number of joint missions have nothing to do with it. In Mobile Suit Gundam, there's a very clear progression in the sequence of events, and the later battles flow naturally into the next. More important, we also have a good feel for the scale of the conflict, and there's much more immediacy for all of the characters involved.

[PowerBarEX]

When I was talking about strategic elements, I was referring specifically to military strategy. All the points that you brought up would be better classified as tactics.

steategy:
1. The science and art of using all the forces of a nation to execute approved plans as effectively as possible during peace or war.
2. The science and art of military command as applied to the overall planning and conduct of large-scale combat operations.
2. A plan of action resulting from strategy or intended to accomplish a specific goal. See Synonyms at plan.

i'm pretty sure tactics can be used as a synonym or even as a subset of the word strategy. If you're looking for some scene where they throw a map out and discuss their movements, Zeta actually had that also. Just because its not Rommel or Patton and some brilliant idea doesn't mean its not a strategy to drop a colony or to cause a diversion.

This wouldn't have been too bad if Zeta didn't completely flub the political part.

how did they flub the political part? I thought they portrayed Char especially well in this manner, though i'm not going to spoil it for everyone, the change in his role politically was a very big deal in the series.

We don't know if there are any operations on the other Sides, or anything like that. Heck, we're not even given a clear indication as to whether AEUG and the Titans committed all of their forces at the last battle.

Well, we know there are constant operations on Earth where the EF are situated. All the major operations we already see during the series. This isn't like White Base where they kicked the Gundam into a little corner until the very end. You also see an instance when the Argama runs off on its own mission (I think it was to disable the colony laser) and then had to run back and help protect the Radish and the rest of the AEUG forces under siege.

I also don't see the relevence of having to know whether all their forces were committed to that last battle. First, that battle was basically the AEUG under siege, so you know the majority of AEUGs resources were spent during that battle. Second, noone still knows the true strength of Haman and the Axis Zeon. Third, seeing as their base was at Zedan was already destroyed and Bask and Paptimus were there leading the Siege, it would be fairly safe to conclude that most of remaining Titan fleet was destroyed at the end, causing them to lose the war (some nobody says this in the anime anyway).

Nothing, as long as it feels like a war. However, just because it focuses on a child coming of age in the middle of a war doesn't make it a war story either.

Ok? then what is a war story to you? Do you consider grave of the fireflies to be a war story? Or does it have to be like Patton? You say it has to capture the feel of a war. It may not be WWII, but Zeta does capture the feel of a rebel insurgency against a dominant force even from the very beginning when they hijack and steal the gundams.

In Mobile Suit Gundam, there's a very clear progression in the sequence of events, and the later battles flow naturally into the next. More important, we also have a good feel for the scale of the conflict, and there's much more immediacy for all of the characters involved.

I agree MSG has a more clear progression in sequence of events, but that's because its missions were quite linear. It was :get to safety, get out behind enemy territory and then run your decoy route until you get to Operation Odessa. Zeta on the other hand participates in more operations, the hijacking in the beginning, Jaburo, Kilamanjaro and then its various missions counteracting the Titans and their attempts to gas/ laser/colony drop whatever they wanted. I'm not sure about what you want for sense of immediacy, but I think Zeta had more instances of it.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Powerbar EX

strategy:
1. The science and art of using all the forces of a nation to execute approved plans as effectively as possible during peace or war.
2. The science and art of military command as applied to the overall planning and conduct of large-scale combat operations.
2. A plan of action resulting from strategy or intended to accomplish a specific goal. See Synonyms at plan.

i'm pretty sure tactics can be used as a synonym or even as a subset of the word strategy. If you're looking for some scene where they throw a map out and discuss their movements, Zeta actually had that also. Just because its not Rommel or Patton and some brilliant idea doesn't mean its not a strategy to drop a colony or to cause a diversion.

Dude I feel for you, because anyone with common sense knows what you mean...Unfortunatley the guy you're debating thinks he has the patent on the term "strategy"...I once did the same thing as you actually listing the 100% pure definition of the word and still this guy thinks strategy only pertains to macro levels of war...

When people like me and you talk about strategy we mean Cammille's fight on the asteroid surface or Char's impromtu planning whether it be in the earth caves or a colony surface...Me and you both know a tactic can be a strategy..So my purpose is to let you know you're not on another planet trying to convey this...

"Based on the schematic read-outs if I use my positron disabler when he flares up his ion-disrupters I'll have a half second-window to immobilize his Gundam." (When a Gundam is trying to frag your a$$ that's a strategy) "If I do this, then that, maybe I'll surprise my opponent..." Even the cow goes "Moooooooo" knows simplistically even that's a strategy....

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

steategy:
1. The science and art of using all the forces of a nation to execute approved plans as effectively as possible during peace or war.
2. The science and art of military command as applied to the overall planning and conduct of large-scale combat operations.
2. A plan of action resulting from strategy or intended to accomplish a specific goal. See Synonyms at plan.

Of your definitions, only the "The science and art of military command..." one can qualify as military strategy. I tend to prefer defining it as "the management of armed forces in the conduct of a campaign (or series of campaigns)". But no matter which definition of strategy you use, it's very important to not confuse it with tactics. Heck, for more modern conflicts, I even prefer to insert a third layer of military activity between the two: the operational level.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

i'm pretty sure tactics can be used as a synonym or even as a subset of the word strategy. If you're looking for some scene where they throw a map out and discuss their movements, Zeta actually had that also. Just because its not Rommel or Patton and some brilliant idea doesn't mean its not a strategy to drop a colony or to cause a diversion.

I wouldn't even use Rommel or Patton as examples of good strategists: Rommel is well-known for being a poor logistician, and Patton often had a hard time seeing the bigger picture. Also, just because some people are pointing out military units on a map doesn't necessarily mean that they're discussing strategy. Very generally, the planning leading up to a battle can be thought of as strategy, while how the battle is fought should be considered tactics. This definition, doesn't really apply to Zeta since the battles are too small to involve strategy.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

how did they flub the political part? I thought they portrayed Char especially well in this manner, though i'm not going to spoil it for everyone, the change in his role politically was a very big deal in the series.

The most important political move in Zeta was told to us in narration rather than depicted: Haman Karn's betrayal of AEUG. Also, when the principal leaders discuss politics or if they give speeches, the dialogue/monologue is generally stilted; with little meaning or purpose, and with arguments that are anything but strong.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Well, we know there are constant operations on Earth where the EF are situated. All the major operations we already see during the series. This isn't like White Base where they kicked the Gundam into a little corner until the very end. You also see an instance when the Argama runs off on its own mission (I think it was to disable the colony laser) and then had to run back and help protect the Radish and the rest of the AEUG forces under siege.

I'm talking about the activity of AEUG's other forces. Until they showed up for a major operation, we hardly even knew that they existed.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

I also don't see the relevence of having to know whether all their forces were committed to that last battle. First, that battle was basically the AEUG under siege, so you know the majority of AEUGs resources were spent during that battle. Second, noone still knows the true strength of Haman and the Axis Zeon. Third, seeing as their base was at Zedan was already destroyed and Bask and Paptimus were there leading the Siege, it would be fairly safe to conclude that most of remaining Titan fleet was destroyed at the end, causing them to lose the war (some nobody says this in the anime anyway).

How do we know any of this though? What we're doing is making assumptions, when we shouldn't have to. Heck, even to this day, I'm not sure what's up - were the Titans wiped out in the final battle, and the AEUG reduced to little more than Argama, or were there large elements of both forces left to fight Haman's troops later on? When the nobody said that most of the Titan fleet was destroyed, was he referring to the entirety of the Titans, or just their forces in the local area? My point is that this should be explicitly stated somewhere.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

Ok? then what is a war story to you? Do you consider grave of the fireflies to be a war story? Or does it have to be like Patton? You say it has to capture the feel of a war. It may not be WWII, but Zeta does capture the feel of a rebel insurgency against a dominant force even from the very beginning when they hijack and steal the gundams.

I haven't watched Grave of the Fireflies yet (I have yet to work up the mood to do so), but I feel that I know enough of it to comment. It does qualify as a war story because it tries to tackle just one or two aspects of the war, and it does so very well. The most important point is that the war is shown to have a major impact on the protagonists.

For the most part, Zeta feels like a bunch of teenagers who decide to fight each other for some reason. I expect guerrilla warfare to contain certain elements, but Zeta pointedly did not depict them. In particular, the lack of operational security betrays the mood the creators were trying to instill. That there was very little competence to go around is another big minus.

Originally Posted by PowerBarEX

I'm not sure about what you want for sense of immediacy, but I think Zeta had more instances of it.

Basically, it's the lack of cohesion among many Zeta episodes. You knew that there was going to be a skirmish every episode, whether or not the story called for one, so the level of tension was very low. Beyond that, the plot was very herky-jerky, and many episodes could have been excised without any meaningful detriment to the rest of the story.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

When people like me and you talk about strategy we mean Cammille's fight on the asteroid surface or Char's impromtu planning whether it be in the earth caves or a colony surface...Me and you both know a tactic can be a strategy..So my purpose is to let you know you're not on another planet trying to convey this...

Correction: people like you don't know what military strategy is, so they display their ignorance as if it's something to be proud of. Have you read this tread carefully enough to make the meaningful contribution of either addressing points, or putting up interesting points of your own, or are you just here to meander about? If your message is just to PowerBarEX, then I suggest that you confine it to a PM - after all, it's what they're for.