Tate no Yuusha/Shield Hero - Episode 4 Discussion / Poll

[frodonk]

Originally Posted by Dharma

Convenience. It was a way to get Naofumi. Are you really expecting moral integrity out of king and princess of all people?

No, obviously they're using anything they can to make Naofumi look bad, but this flip-flopping about how enslaved demi-humans should be treated is part of the story that's been problematic for me for a few episodes now, it's just another instance of inconsistency regarding slaves.

Good thing Raph slapped Motoyasu after she was freed, I imagine her being put to death for being a slave who disrespected the spear hero, instead we only got Myne ranting about how she's just a lowly demi-human, imagine the chaos it will do to the story if Raph lived without repercussions if she slapped the spear hero while being a slave.

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

For starters, it's hardly unheard of for slavery to be a touchy subject that some would view as evil even in places where it's legal. I myself have an ancestor who lived in the South and even gave most of his money to the war effort on account of family in the army, but who freed every slave he inherited because he could not reconcile it with his beliefs.

To be clear, I don't have a problem with slavery, we all know it's bad BUT if the story used it as a plot device then the author should've been consistent, the story established that it's bad but legal, but then we have merchants giving away goods to slaves and the king this episode saying stuff about rotten slave owners, all the while showing demi-human children in chains doing manual labor in the background.

Originally Posted by Tactics

I don't see problem with Naofumi sticking around.

He is poor, can be said the poorest among 4 Heroes.

Aside of reward, the feast have large amount of foods for free, going there would the best if you want to keep expenses minimum.

Like I said, he could've taken the money while not being in the same room. Also, didn't he throw down the last remaining silver back at the king in ep1? right after he was accused? What made him change his mind to accept money from the king this time???

As for the food, he can't enjoy it since he can't taste anything, and a decent meal isn't that much of an expense as we've seen before.

The only thing that makes sense for me as to why he was at that party was so that he could be emo while looking out the window and refuse the food Raph offered him.

With his reputation, not going there won't make it better but only make others perception on him worsened as he might be branded as anti-social hero who didn't want to socialize with others. At least by going there, he can keep himself away from unnecessary opinions while also keeping distance (until Motoyasu arrives).

Everyone is already convinced on what he allegedly did, nothing can change that, even he's convinced that everyone is out to get him and is against him, there's no reputation to salvage, and being an anti-social hero is the least of his worries.

Brooding is normal on his case.
He arguably working the hardest among heroes, his trust at most times low since he framed, then he have an ally of justice asking for duel on arena where 99% people despise him, ignore how there's someone cheating, while also taking his only close person to trust who also his only way to get stronger under Shield limitation.

Motoyasu wouldn't have been able to challenge him if he didn't stick around, granted, he didn't know what the king and Myne was plotting, but if he's not there then the story could not have gone the way it did

I'm more surprised if he stop brooding and be able to take all of that with happy-go-lucky attitude.

Yes, and just as fast as he turned from happy-go-lucky to alleged rapist, he also quickly became normal again after a hug from raccoon girl.

For others this might seem to be fine, but for me the sudden changes in his personality seems to be too quick to explain properly.

Originally Posted by Twi

Naofumi was far more emo in the manga, but the point is Naofumi is justifiably angry. Rationally speaking, there was literally nothing stopping Naofumi from freeing Raph, her meeting up with him outside, and going to get the brand reapplied or even just staying partied afterwards. Or him getting another slave.

But this? This was personal. It made it perfectly clear if they did it once they'd do it again. It made it clear that the King and Myne wanted to screw him over solely because he was the Shield Hero, summoned by them and unable to go back home until they say so. This was everyone else in that audience (all Nobility at that) willing to turn a blind eye while he got screwed over and then calling for him to be killed. It is literally him against the world for reasons that aren't his fault.

Motoyatsu, as established, is an idiot and a perfect pawn. Because right here you saw both the Sword and Bow would actually speak up. While they do believe that Naofumi may have done what was said before, they personally saw in front of their eyes that he was wronged and Raph actually did care about him.

This makes a lot of sense, there was that part of the episode where he realized the king and Myne did plan this all out BUT

- Why hasn't he realized or even asked out loud why he's being singled out this way either personally or as the shield hero?

- If he knew or thought that they did go after Raph to hurt him, he could've easily realized Raph's intentions when she came to comfort him, but nooo, he had to be all emo again before they resolved his lack of sense of taste when eating problems

Is it because Raph's a girl, and he's been betrayed by a girl before? That's why he thought Raph came back to gloat over him? It would make sense if that's the case.



I'd still want to see more of these, I'm especially curious about that big white chicken in the OP.

[Kinematics]

Originally Posted by Dharma

Raftalia's rebuke was quite on point.

So sword and bow are willing to confront the king... Brave or stupid? Still playing a game much?

Spoiler for speculations:

Maybe king and princess are good guys and did all that to unlock that curse thing which is OP and will be instrumental in winning the war? Why else would they undermine their protectors?

Regarding your speculations, I just can't see that degree of Xanatos gambit going on here. It seems wildly implausible, particularly since we can see their physical reactions during events, which do not in any way suggest that.

Originally Posted by Kanon

Raphtalia is definitely the best girl, which doesn't mean much given she has basically zero competition, so let's just say she's a great girl. She was aware of the rumors surrounding Naofumi but chose to trust him.

Actually, I was just thinking about that yesterday, when considering Naofumi's reaction to Raphtalia possibly learning about the rumors of him from Motoyasu, during the hourglass room incident. Then I realized, she had to have at least heard what people were muttering about him when they went to that very first restaurant, so Naofumi's attempts to hide that from her seemed poorly considered at best.

Originally Posted by HandofFate

Rathalia is a treasure T_T
channeling Rem.

Yep. There was a lot of the same feel of the Rem confession scene in Re:Zero here, though I will say that Re:Zero's version was far more impactful. Of course Re:Zero had that scene in episode 18, so had vastly more build-up to it as well.

Originally Posted by frodonk

Does that end the first arc? I ended up skipping most of the episode.

I couldn't stand how pompous that spear guy was, and I couldn't stand how emo Naofumi was even more.

Pompous he may have been, but Motoyasu's stance was exactly the sort of stance most people would take (and have taken) against Naofumi's actions, if based on modern world perspectives. If we hadn't been seeing what's going on with Naofumi, the vast majority of people would be cheering Motoyasu on in that fight. And that's without whatever strange prejudice people have against the Shield Hero, here.

Originally Posted by frodonk

Sure, he'd say he was in that feast mainly because of the reward, but he was sticking around as well, if he didn't like the place he could've gone somewhere else, get the money then scram.

Why would you think that they'd be passing out the rewards at the beginning of the evening? Even without the king and Mein's plotting, ceremonial parties like that are designed around the intermingling (eating, talking, dancing) happening first, and the awards second. Look at any type of awards ceremony, and you'll see the same type of general flow and pacing.

So Naofumi staying during the party seems perfectly normal and natural. He's stuck there until they give out the awards, and is just killing time. He clearly doesn't need, or even want, the food, as it's still tasteless to him, and thus worthless.

Originally Posted by frodonk

This Motoyasu guy let his fame get into his head and is being lead around by Myne, no problem with that, but how can he be so dumb that the other 2 heroes were able to see what happened and he still didn't believe them? Did he really believe he can do no wrong? Is critical thinking not taught in their world?

Um, the attack by Mein happened when Motoyasu wasn't looking. He never saw it happen. When Itsuki and Ren accused her of that, he reacted, and prompted Mein for an explanation.

Originally Posted by frodonk

Lastly, that issue with slaves!!! This world can't make up its mind on whether slaving demi-humans are actually good or evil! The KING himself considers slave owners to be "rotten to the core" but it is legal? WHAT? Then you have Myne saying things about Raph being demi-human, but that's more because she's a demi-human, not because she's a slave (that has been freed now)

Read what the king said again: a hero, using a demi-human as a slave

Yes, slavery is legal. But this isn't about the average person having a slave, it's about a hero having a slave. The heroes are held up to a higher standard. Certainly the heroes themselves would generally avoid slavery, but it's an easy to way to throw mud on Naofumi by using their own modern morals against them. This is a dirty tactic, but this is the king we're talking about.

Second, it's a demi-human slave. Even if you have a slave, you're not using a human; rather, you're allowing a demi-human to associate with you — a hero. Given the kingdom's feelings about demi-humans, allowing one to be part of a hero's party is despicable. It's like a bunch of white nationalists finding out that you let a black guy into your party when you set out to fight the demon lord.

Third, it's a hero using a slave. Despite the fact that the situation was entirely engineered by the king and Mein, it's an accusation against the fact that Naofumi couldn't even get a single free person to voluntarily join his party, which just makes Naofumi look pathetic. This is the part that I think Itsuki and Ren reacted to. It's a sad and despicable state of affairs.

With just one sentence, the king managed to attack Naofumi on three different levels, without ever admitting that the very existence of slaves, and slavery of demi-humans, was wrong, or should reflect on him and his rulership. This is absolutely not an issue with the story or the worldbuilding. It's a character very skillfully using words to destroy a man, and reinforce the hatred that all the nobles in the court have against the Shield Hero.

Originally Posted by felix

The meltdown felt a bit forced. He didn't seem that out of control till now. Hm.
Not sure I like this slide of hand antics for plot development. You can just introduce any shit at any time like this.
I guess it's inline with the rapid aging deus ex machina shenanigans.

Do you mean "Sleight of hand"? And what is it that you consider "sleight of hand"? Your sentence doesn't really make any sense.

As for the meltdown feeling forced, I did not get that impression. Perhaps a slight bit rushed (Edit: Actually, I wouldn't even say that, after another re-watch), due to the time issues they've had throughout the series, but definitely not forced.

[Lex79]

First part of the episode made me rage (like my DnD barbarian character), the end made me almost cry. I would have actually preferred Naofumi going mad and violent after being screwed again instead of crying, but in the end the important thing was Raphtalia saving him. Now he realized there is at least one person he can trust, I hope things are going to be better from now.

[Dengar]

Uhhh I’m not seeing any “inconsistency” regarding the slave thing. Obviously the trash king just needed a reason to shit on Naofumi. Do you really think he actually cares about the whole slavery thing?

People are giving stuff to Raph because she’s cute af. Don’t really need better logic than that.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by felix

Hm. Give me a reason/argument why I should care that in the manga/novel he's more out of control in other parts?

He's not in the anime, I don't see why the "alternative history" matters here.
If it wasn't adapted (or adapted differently), doesn't count. Different Naofumi's.

It shifts the meaning a bit I'd say. It's not that his blow up here was over-the-top, it's just that his previous outbursts were shrunk down. Yes, the animators' choice to make him act out less before this made this moment seem less "characteristic", but the fault lies not with this scene but with the scenes preceding it that were cut or altered.

[Twi]

Basically what BWTraveller stated. You said it was out of place and felt forced. That's why. When you change the sequence of events preceding something, you also change the weight the scenes afterwards carry, which can change how these events can be perceived. Even without seeing it in another medium, it was pretty clear though that Naofumi had reached the point where he was about to lose what little progress he had made specifically because the King and Princess were just trying to screw him over.

At this point its not just a lie one woman said to turn the world against him. It's the King and the kingdom itself that's screwing him over, not because they even think she's telling the truth, but because they hate the Shield Hero in general. It could have been anyone else who was summoned, yet he's the one who has to put up with this when he'd done nothing wrong to start with.

[Grifis]

I shed some tears at the confession scene. Love conquers all. Well, I'm glad that main guy finally gets over his depression and starts enjoying food as well as realizing his aibou has grown into a fine young demi-woman.

[Kinematics]

So, Naofumi's emotional roller coaster.

A lot of people have mentioned that the manga/light novel had Naofumi be a lot more angry in the recent past, rather than the numb depression they used in the anime, and say that that helps explain his behavior better. I'm going to say: I disagree.

There are three problems with using anger as a primary driving emotion for extended periods:

1) You lose the differentiation. If Naofumi is angry all the time, what makes this time any different than the last time? It gets tedious and boring. The impact of using anger is diminished because the audience has become so used to it. It's "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" syndrome. The anger of the first episode worked well because it allowed the mellowing of Naofumi in episode 2 to stand out more, which in turn let the depression of episode 3 to work. If episode 3 had gone back to mostly angry, it would have both hurt the value of what happened in episode 2, and weakened the impact of episode 4.

2) You lose nuance. If anger is Naofumi's constant state, then he becomes less, as a character. The fewer emotions he experiences, the less human, and the more artificial, he seems to be. This is the most stereotypical angry light novel protagonist that gives the entire medium a bad name.

3) If anger is his constant response, then how can he possibly break in a believable way? If that anger is always there for him, then that anger should continue to drive his reactions in the pivotal events, and he shouldn't break. (And if this had happened at the end of episode 1, he wouldn't have broken.)


In order for that moment with Raphtalia to mean anything, that had to be Naofumi's lowest point ever. Anger may be a part of it, but it's helplessness and depression that drive people to that point, not anger. In fact, anger is a sustaining emotion when placed against those others. When Naofumi shows anger, that's when he's surpassing even more negative emotions. It holds him up, keeps him active in that situation. We saw that a few times in episode 3.

'Breaking' means that even anger isn't enough to escape the crushing grip of losing all hope. In fact, the Curse Shield is quite literally a manifestation of going beyond mere anger. It's the state where you've fallen so low that even anger can't drag you back ou. It's cursing the world and all that it represents. It's a complete loss of belief in anything, and giving in to the desire to simply destroy everything. If he were a magical girl in PMMM, he'd be witching out.

The writers in the anime clearly have a better handle on the dynamics of emotional states than the original author did. Life has been grinding him down, taking everything away from him, leaving him in the highly depressed state we saw in episode 3. He had a few things he could still hold onto, but ultimately all of them hinged on Raphtalia, since the end of episode 2. (This is why I think he wouldn't have broken if this same event happened at the end of ep 1/start of ep 2, as his constant angry state, prior to softening with Raphtalia, would have sustained him through that.)

So now, after the slight emotional high of beating the wave, and being thanked by the villagers (even if he seemed somewhat indifferent to them), we get the drop back to 'baseline' Naofumi at the start of the party, where he's examining the options relating to teleporting people with him, and what that could have meant in the battle, and then a constant series of ups and downs through the rest of the episode. Anger at Motoyasu, resentment at the king forcing the duel to take place, elation at actually beating Motoyasu, the betrayal of Mein's actions, the hopelessness as it was clear even against blatant cheating, no one would speak up for him, the realization when it was revealed that Mein was the king's daughter, and the final loss as they took Raphtalia away from him.

All of that was heavily informed by the mix of softening emotions from being with Raphtalia, anger at specific events, and depression that was destroying him now that he no longer had the constant anger holding it at bay. Lots of anger prior to that would not help it make more sense; it would have taken away from the human-ness of Naofumi's situation.


I know that some people want that anger, regardless. There's been commentary here and elsewhere that they feel that putting more angry outbursts to reflect the reader's emotions would make the story 'better'. But I feel that what they did in the anime is better. The writers want to evoke that anger in the viewer, when the world is unjust. If Naofumi reacts with anger (as can only happen with a fictional character), the viewers get the satisfaction that that angry release brings, but that satisfaction steals away the feelings that the writer wants to evoke at the climax. It doesn't help Naofumi, and it doesn't help the audience. It's simply weaker writing.



So yeah, that's my impressions of how the emotional writing of the story has worked so far. I can see the intent, and I think that it's just what the story should have. There may be a little weakness in the execution (particularly in the feeling that the story is a little bit rushed, due to the time limits of a TV series), but I think the overall approach has been very well done.

[PreSage]

Seriously how thick are those coloured glasses that Motoyasu is wearing? I agree with the other heroes that he still has the gall (or stupidity) to even say that he's done nothing wrong/Raphthalia is under mind control after witnessing Naofumi/Raphthalia end scene.

And, hello, but who would suddenly start flying forward like they were blasted from behind, all by themselves? No one. Obviously someone attacked him and yet Motoyasu didn't see that?

[AC-Phoenix]

Spoiler for cut content vs Manga:

The bow and sword hero actually forced the King to punish Myne, or more specifically the entire group.
As punishment spear-jerk's team got the lowest possible funds.

There is one more, which is also a really important one, but maybe they'll do that next episode so I'll keep my fingers away from the keyboard on this one for the time being

[Itlandm]

It seems clear to me that Spear Hero is not in on the royal plot and actually is a honorable (if somewhat self-important) person. There is no way he could suspect that anyone would interfere in a duel, let alone in front of the King and the Pope. The other two Heroes had the benefit of seeing the whole battlefield, while someone concentrated on his own battle would only see the opponent suddenly stumble. It must be near impossible for him to believe that the Princess would do it either, of all people, being such a lovable person and all.

I don't think the other two Heroes are ready to believe Shield Hero quite yet, but having seen the Princess do something incredibly dishonorable in front of everyone and letting her father cover it up, suspicion should start building up. It could be that she is in love with Spear Hero and intervened in the fight to save him, though. I mean, we know better, but they may not. Or not yet. They may look at things with more open eyes from now on.

[Kuroageha]

I find hilarious that if they held Raphtalia a little longer Naofumi's heroes would have been Sword and Bow(?).

[BWTraveller]

TBH, I didn't feel like there was all THAT much difference between Naofumi's behavior in the manga/LN and the anime. There were perhaps one or two scenes that were either cut or altered to avoid him shouting or getting really mad, but the anger and bitterness came through pretty clear. I'd have to agree that it was if anything slightly trimmed to give emphasis to this scene, to make it easier to demonstrate the extremity of his anger when his enemies finally succeed and taking everything from him.

As far as Motoyasu's colored glasses, I think something from the very first chapter of the novel, specifically the original content of the book Naofumi found, might give a good indication:

Spoiler for LN:

In the book, a brief description is given about the three other heroes. The Bow is intolerant to injustice, the Sword is focused on raw power, and the Spear is absolutely dedicated to his friends. Taken at face value these are all good things, but they could easily translate to flaws if carried too far, such as Motoyasu perhaps being dedicated to supporting and believing his "friends" in his party no matter what. Taken to an extreme this can easily transform a loyal friend into a gullible tool.

[Twi]

Originally Posted by PreSage

And, hello, but who would suddenly start flying forward like they were blasted from behind, all by themselves? No one. Obviously someone attacked him and yet Motoyasu didn't see that?

He was too busy cowering at the threat of having his beautiful face ruined.

[serenade_beta]

I was wondering what this "Characters forced to act stupid just to cause drama" reminded me of. Hanebato!

Anyways, umm... The ED song made me so emotional. This was clearly a very emotional episode. I have been moved to tears.
...Hmm, nah.
Lance guy needs to defeat some demon gods to get back his eyes that were stolen from him, and Shield needs to learn to not somehow get baited into a hostile environment by "rewards".

[Frontier]

The slavery element to Naofumi and Raphtalia's relationship was still pretty skeevy, admittedly, even if by that point it probably wasn't really a factor and the slave contract more of a symbol of their partnership (which is why Naofumi despaired so much over losing it). Raphtalia even seemed to have forgotten that she was technically a slave .

Naofumi holding his own against Spear Hero was pretty cool. Nobody seemed to take Naofumi seriously as a combatant so it was nice to see him utilizing his different shields and attacks, as well as his patented balloon monster move, to whittle down Motoyasu .

So the system was against Naofumi from the start, with Myne actually being a princess the whole time and making sure her father was around to help make sure the framejob of Naofumi and Malty's ultimate gain was carried out in full .

Spear Hero...gah, Spear Hero. I guess any real hero has to have at least a modicum of self-righteousness, but rather then it being genuine, with Motoyasu it just comes off as him trying to make himself feel better and remaining completely oblivious to anything that goes against that. Part of me can't help but think that the reason he's so centered on Naofumi is because Naofumi's perceived "villainy" can help make Motoyasu look better. Out of all the heroes he might take the longest to come around to Naofumi because he probably doesn't want to believe Naofumi is a better person then Motoyasu thinks he is (or maybe even better then him) .

I don't think I've ever wanted to see someone punch a woman as much as I have in this episode, watching Myne/Malty/whatever once again manipulating things to screw Naofumi over and enjoying every bit of it. I wish somebody could sock that smug face in, even if they probably couldn't get away with slugging the princess .

But on that note Raphtalia slapping Spear Hero and telling everybody off was so satisfying. I knew she wouldn't cater to how everyone was expecting her to act the moment they took the gag off, but it was great to see her completely steal the show and defend Naofumi from those tools. She's definitely a keeper, Naofumi .

It's good to see that Sword Hero and Bow Hero have enough decency and common sense to call out the obvious cheating during the duel instead of just following along with the kingdom putting down Naofumi. I don't know if this is going to completely change their opinion of Naofumi moving forward, but I think it's a good start .

Naofumi lost the duel but ultimately he won on an emotional and personal sense as Raphtalia bucks the plans of the royals by completely dedicating herself to Naofumi and telling him that he isn't as bad a person as the world seems to treat him as. Even if the whole world continues to turn on and vilify him, Naofumi will always have Raphtalia to defend and support him .

I think it's still going to take a while for Naofumi to adjust to adult woman Raphtalia. His mental scape only ever upgraded to teen Raphtalia before the real version showed up .

[Keila]

Just as a passing thought, how hard would it actually be to kill Myne if you strapped her down and let the balloons have their way with her (assuming that something also stopped her from just magic-ing her way out of the situation).

We know that people can be 'threatened' by them, but is that just because they hurt, or because there's an actual risk of death (whilst being eaten alive).

[Tactics]

I found how staffs chipped Naofumi anger is good job; I agree with what Kinematics said.

In original source, Naofumi can be considered blinded by rage due to lack of interaction with people other than Raphtalia.
Here he have scar-bro Knight leading his squad to assist him, villagers cooperating with him and appreciating his works; he's not all alone on doing his job compare to the source that it makes more sense if the rage have lessened into negative viewpoint that lead to depression once the roller coaster begin.

[milan kyuubi]

Cap time to step out of the team! lmao

[Sheba]

To be fair to Shieldbro, the forced video games mechanics FORCES him with a weakass attack stat. No matter what he do, he'll hit as hard as a little girl. He'll have to rely on the abilities of the shield he unlocked and think outside the box.