2007-05-14, 09:04 | Link #521 | ||
Bubbly and super fun
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
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That's why Sasuke knowing the Gate beforehand is irrelevant : if he executes the Lotus it will forcibly release these restraints. Which is why according to Gai it shouldn't have been possible for Sasuke to do that since his body isn't trained for this. And he did have a CS moment around that intial kick, he had it the very following moment. Sasuke obviously didn't plan on using chakra but he had no choice on the matter since the move forcibly does it. Quote:
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2007-05-14, 09:41 | Link #522 |
REdiculous (see profile)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: I live in a freakin' desert...not even a cool desert with cacti and stuff...just a whole lot o' nada
Age: 40
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If that is the case (and I can't recall that being said, but I'll take your word for it until I can find otherwise), then how the hell is Lotus performed? If Lotus forcibly releases the gate, then what precipitates Lotus? It is simply the sequence of attacks? Plus, Sasuke never performed Lotus...he performed a C-Rank jutsu that was a pale imitation of Lotus...and as Sasuke didn't perform Lotus, it wouldn't have forced open his gate.
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2007-05-14, 10:07 | Link #523 | ||
The Ironman
Join Date: Sep 2006
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2007-05-14, 10:37 | Link #524 | |||
Μ ε r c ü r υ
Join Date: Jun 2004
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And, for Lotus, I checked chapter 85. It says Lotus forcibly releases these restraints "using" chakra (here, lotus is used in general, both versions, including all the other gates). I guess, we can rephrase it like, to use Lotus, you open the gates to remove the restraints, and it is more like you activate the seals to perform a jutsu. Not like you say Lotus and the chakra flows and the gates open themselves. To me, it seems that you make it look like, just because Sasuke copied the initial kick, he can open the gates naturally, it doesn't say that. Quote:
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Considering what we have seen, the Lotus has gate opening and taijutsu kicks. So, if Sasuke performed only the special taijutsu section and forgot about the gate opening, it is possible that, the performed part might still be considered as part-Lotus, by Gai. |
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2007-05-14, 14:00 | Link #525 | |
Golden
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: 9th Temple
Age: 45
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“Lotus forcedly release these restraint using Chakra” We know gates are restraints the body has to control the chakra that flow in the inner coils, so when the sentence said “these restraints” its talks about Gates, so let rephrase it like this: “Lotus forcedly release the gates using Chakra” Eg, with a sudden burst of Chakra created by the Lotus, the Gates that were once closed are released by it.
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2007-05-14, 14:19 | Link #526 |
Μ ε r c ü r υ
Join Date: Jun 2004
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For Lotus, it is either performing the taijutsu opens the gates naturally, or you open the gate and perform the taijutsu.
That is why I used seal/technique example. As the simplest example, typically, you do not start walking on the water without releasing your chakra. Cause, walking on the water does not release the chakra from you. I consider the gate opening that way. And, when you apply this to Sasuke, performing the taijutsu is not a guarantee of releasing the gate. He needs to open the gate intentionally, and I doubt he ever learned that. Also, considering there is no CS interruption taking place at the time of that kick that would be caused by chakra usage, the indication towards gate opening does not seem to be a highly likely case, though, it is still possible (due to some external interference, we may not be able to see that). |
2007-05-15, 00:54 | Link #527 | |
REdiculous (see profile)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: I live in a freakin' desert...not even a cool desert with cacti and stuff...just a whole lot o' nada
Age: 40
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Ok...so if a person with no gates open performs at the exact same level of Lee with the first gate open, and performs the exact same sequence of movements that Lee uses for Lotus, it's not Lotus? Perhaps we should change the name of this thread to "Neji's whatever to Sasuke's Sharingan/Gates/CS/Kusinagi/Chidori Nagashi/Wrath while Lee looks on and cries that not only was his speed cheaply co-opted, but his only other defining move" |
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2007-05-15, 06:43 | Link #528 | |
The Ironman
Join Date: Sep 2006
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But fine, If you want to say that Sasuke just did a pale imitation that didn't have anything to do with Lotus despite Gai and Lee going "oooh" and "aaah" and Gai saying he had in fact copied part of Lotus it's ok. Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2007-05-15 at 07:02. |
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2007-05-16, 01:24 | Link #529 |
REdiculous (see profile)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: I live in a freakin' desert...not even a cool desert with cacti and stuff...just a whole lot o' nada
Age: 40
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If Guy said that Sasuke copied part of Lotus, then the sequence of attacks DOES matter...as otherwise he would simply be copying part of a combo that doesn't mean anything. And if Sasuke HAD opened the first gate and performed a combo (ANY combo by your definition), he wouldn't have performed part of Lotus...he would have performed Lotus in its entirety. Which is why I'm thinking that the actual combo itself is important, and why it should be able to be performed sans gate.
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2007-05-16, 17:15 | Link #530 |
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
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Well we all know that before the Chuunin exams Sasuske fought Rock Lee, and Lee was about to anally rape him before Guy-sensei interfered. We also know that Rock Lee and Neji constantly trained together and sparred and Lee never really got much hits on Neji. So, lets do the math. I know that sasuke is a natural and very strong for his age according to orochimaru but neji at the age of 13 or 14 did a technique that surprised his uncle wich was the forty two hit palm... In my opinion i go with neji.. hes also a prodigy and madd skilled not to mention now his palm attacks are far ranged but yea..... although sasuke is shown capable of handling his new partners with one swift summon of two snakes to stop them from fighting ... the bad thing is that we dont know what neji is completly capable of but we have caught a glimpse of sasukes newlyfound skills .. but still neji is not to be denied
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2007-05-16, 18:24 | Link #531 | |
Konoha's ANBU
Join Date: Dec 2005
Age: 38
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2007-05-18, 05:44 | Link #532 | |||||
Bubbly and super fun
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
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Gai said chapter 52 that the Lotus releases the brain's limitators using chakra and Kakashi confirmed the same thing chapter 85 saying the Lotus forcibly releases them with chakra. They are both directly saying that executing the Lotus releases the Gate(s), period. And no I do not say Sasuke can open the Gates naturally since Sasuke bluntly admitted that it was a technique he couldn't count on : I said that since he was executing the first part of the Lotus he came to the point where his brain's limitators were released with chakra which triggered the CS which stopped the whole thing. Hence Sasuke started to release the First Gate before the CS, that was my point. Then I speculated about how much it affected Sasuke depending of the moment the Lotus releases the 1st Gate. Quote:
But mostly you do not adress the fact that Sasuke suddenly passed to a state where he wasn't able to deal physically with Yoroi taijutsu-wise to a state where he butchered him. This isn't a fart, this is speed and strength. Quote:
Copying a simple kick isn't a seemingly impossible feat. Quote:
Gai specifically mentioned the Lotus and Lotus means Gate-induced high speed Taijutsu. Not Taijutsu with Gate if you don't forget to release them. |
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2007-05-18, 08:24 | Link #533 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: In Florida
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Do you think it's possible that it wasn't the actual gate opening, but that the increase of chakra that affected his CS caused by attempting to do part of the lotus since the lotus releases the gates using chakra? It just seems that there is an increase of chakra before opening the gates and maybe it's this increase that affected Sasuke?
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2007-05-18, 17:56 | Link #537 | ||||||
Μ ε r c ü r υ
Join Date: Jun 2004
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2007-05-18, 20:06 | Link #538 | ||||||
Bubbly and super fun
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
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And I'm talking about near the end of the forest part, ie the time where we learned that Sasuke couldn't use chakra because it triggered the CS and where it took a way longer time to happen. Quote:
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Gai : the Lotus releases the brain's limitators [Gates] using chakra. Kakashi : The Lotus forcibly releases the restraints [Gates] using chakra. So maybe for you executing the Lotus doesn't release the Gate(s) but Kakashi and Gai directly disagree with you. Quote:
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Bluntly put he was physicaly exhausted and barely able to fight back. Then suddenly he was able to outspeed and outpower Yoroi just like that. Sasuke was no slouch speed and Taijutsu wise even back then but at this time he didn't have any speed and strength left until he suddenly became faster than Yoroi. This isn't about the way he was doing because he wasn't able to do anything, this is a sudden obvious increase of speed. And copying a simple kick doesn't increase your speed not get you on your feet when you previously couldn't get up a second ago. Look honestly I think I will stop here, consider I will read your answer and leave it at that. |
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2007-05-18, 20:57 | Link #539 | |||||
Μ ε r c ü r υ
Join Date: Jun 2004
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If you take it that sentence, the way you see it, then explain, how Lee was releasing the gate, without using the Lotus, if the taijutsu moves are going to release the gates themselves, without the Lee to do that??? Quote:
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2007-05-23, 13:30 | Link #540 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2.) Now we get to what Id been saying since. Sasuke all of a sudden gained stamina out of nowhere to do his combo. Nowhere does it say Gates refresh your stamina or suppy you with some. He had to get it from somewhere though. So when I said it was a plothole, I didn't mean him being able to perform the combo. He can copy taijutsu so why not. I meant him having the stamina to pull it off. Thats what was bs. |
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