Mobile Suit Numbers

[4Tran]

I've been thinking about the ways the wars in Gundam have been portrayed, and one thing has been puzzling me. What is the actual scale of the conflicts? I'm most curious about the number of warships and mobile weapons fielded by the various militaries in the following conflicts:

One Year War
Gryps War
First Neo Zeon War
Second Neo Zeon War (I believe this is the name for Char's Counterattack)
Zanscare War
Cosmic Era 71 War
Cosmic Era 73 War
Dianna Counter Conflicts

Curiously, the only conflict that we got numbers for was in Gundam Wing, where Treize's forces in the final battle was around 3000 mobile suits (if I remembered it correctly), and the total number of casualties (I believe this includes civilian casualties as well) up to that point was just under 100 000.

Does anyone have any solid numbers for any of the other ones?

[M_Flores]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I've been thinking about the ways the wars in Gundam have been portrayed, and one thing has been puzzling me. What is the actual scale of the conflicts? I'm most curious about the number of warships and mobile weapons fielded by the various militaries in the following conflicts:

One Year War
Gryps War
First Neo Zeon War
Second Neo Zeon War (I believe this is the name for Char's Counterattack)
Zanscare War
Cosmic Era 71 War
Cosmic Era 73 War
Dianna Counter Conflicts

Curiously, the only conflict that we got numbers for was in Gundam Wing, where Treize's forces in the final battle was around 3000 mobile suits (if I remembered it correctly), and the total number of casualties (I believe this includes civilian casualties as well) up to that point was just under 100 000.

Does anyone have any solid numbers for any of the other ones?

Not sure anyone can give you an actual number of units, but considering Alliance VS ZAFT in CE 71 was basically the whole EA (which like, more than half the entire planet's forces) Vs everyone who lived in space (PLANTS dont count as they seem to be non-combatants), I'd say this war COULD'VE been huge and much bigger if Orb Triple Ships didn't interfere - mankind would've literally destroyed themselves in this war, according to Le Creuset's plan.
Considering this war basically affected all of mankind, I'd assume the number of units was at least a little greater than that in Gundam Wing.

Also, I'd say the One Year War was probably the only OMGWTF grand scale kind of war in the UC anyway, compared to the others that followed.

[wingdarkness]

While it's not listed from the visual evidence during the series Gundam X seemed to have the biggest full scaled war in all of Gundam culminating with virtually the extinction of all but 15% of life...even changing the Earth's continents via the colony drop...Casualties were easily billions...I don't think I can recall seeing more warships and MS's fighting one another in a single battle...Perhaps someone knows the actual stats...

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by M_Flores

Not sure anyone can give you an actual number of units,

I was afraid of that. I just remembered something about Char having around 300 mobile suits for dropping Axis, and I was hoping that someone knew of a source that could give solid numbers. The conflicts I'm most interested in are the Gryps War and the fighting in Turn A (I can't really call it a war). What the heck were the numbers for the Titans, AEUG, and Axis? And how many of each group survived? Knowing this would also make it easier to get some perspective on how the Turn A conflicts affected people.

Originally Posted by M_Flores

Considering this war basically affected all of mankind, I'd assume the number of units was at least a little greater than that in Gundam Wing.

I'd assume so as well. 3000 mobile suits for a desperate battle like that seems awfully small for a supposedly huge conflict. 100 000 casualties is just miniscule for just about any decent sized war. The Cosmic Era 71 war seemed to have a much bigger scale; unfortunately, without any hard numbers, it's just aimless speculation.

Originally Posted by M_Flores

Also, I'd say the One Year War was probably the only OMGWTF grand scale kind of war in the UC anyway, compared to the others that followed.

For all that the One-Year War was supposed to be some sort of cataclysmic conflict, it really didn't impress me much. The most telling was the depiction of the largest battle in the war: the Battle of Loum. That battle looked so uninspired, so uninteresting, so minor that it reduces the impact of the One-Year War itself. It makes me wish that I never saw MS Igloo.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

While it's not listed from the visual evidence during the series Gundam X seemed to have the biggest full scaled war in all of Gundam...

I'm not interested in the numbers for the Seventh Space War. The creators betrayed their setting so throughly that I can't take it seriously.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by 4tran

I'm not interested in the numbers for the Seventh Space War. The creators betrayed their setting so throughly that I can't take it seriously.

Is the 7th Space War the actual war that caused armagedden or was that the final war between Bloodman's federation and space? As for betrayle I don't quite understand unless you mean the rushed ending (Because the show was cancelled) that quickly forced the final conflict or maybe you thought the first war was too over-the-top to begin with...A brief explanation will do...

[4Tran]

The Seventh Space War is the one where they dropped all those colonies. I don't know if the A.W.0015 conflict even has a name.

The problem is that the Seventh Space War supposedly killed off 90% of the world's population, and that the story picks up a mere fifteen years after that event. Within such a short period of time, the primary concern for everyone should have been mere survival, and they should be at a subsistence level of living standards. Nothing in the show itself reflects that.

[Scorch]

I don't have exact numbers, but the Titans were actually quite small. The way they got larger forces was by dragooning regular Federal forces into helping.

AEUG had I believe only one ship left after the Gryps conflict. It's been awhile since I watched ZZ, but I remember them saying the Argama was all that was left at the start of the first Neo-Zeon war.

[true_cricket]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

For all that the One-Year War was supposed to be some sort of cataclysmic conflict, it really didn't impress me much. The most telling was the depiction of the largest battle in the war: the Battle of Loum. That battle looked so uninspired, so uninteresting, so minor that it reduces the impact of the One-Year War itself. It makes me wish that I never saw MS Igloo.

MS Igloo is very impressive for the image quality... but the Battle of Loum is not described in the same way in MS Igloo and the others. In Igloo we can see a fight in open void space, in other it is said (MS Gundam and The Origin) that the battle was a fight in the middle of colonies clusters and , so a deseperate fight for both sides, using the environnement to protect them.. and leeding to its destruction.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Scorch

I don't have exact numbers, but the Titans were actually quite small. The way they got larger forces was by dragooning regular Federal forces into helping.

AEUG had I believe only one ship left after the Gryps conflict. It's been awhile since I watched ZZ, but I remember them saying the Argama was all that was left at the start of the first Neo-Zeon war.

I've heard pretty much the same thing. I was wondering if you had a link to a source.

Originally Posted by true_cricket

MS Igloo is very impressive for the image quality...

I don't really care too much about animation and artwork, but I don't think that the 3D action is a very good fit for Gundam shows in general. It just seemed very awkward at times. Worse yet, the 3D stuff seemed to lack a lot of the grandeur that some Gundam shows managed to pull off.

Originally Posted by true_cricket

but the Battle of Loum is not described in the same way in MS Igloo and the others. In Igloo we can see a fight in open void space, in other it is said (MS Gundam and The Origin) that the battle was a fight in the middle of colonies clusters and , so a deseperate fight for both sides, using the environnement to protect them.. and leeding to its destruction.

That's a real shame; the original description of the battle sounds far more interesting that the one they showed. This kind of thing makes me feel far less guilty about ignoring MS Igloo (and by extension, Gundam Evolve) altogether.

[Sety]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I'd assume so as well. 3000 mobile suits for a desperate battle like that seems awfully small for a supposedly huge conflict. 100 000 casualties is just miniscule for just about any decent sized war.

Though in all honesty Mobile Suits in that series were almost special ops exclusive only so most of the casualties were those on the frontlines. One more thing to note is Endless Waltz and some of the G-Wing sidestories kinda explained that they only had 3000 Leo's because MS production had begun on the successor to the Leo series AKA Serpents but they never made it in time. Kind of the same situation with the Gelgoog in OYW.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Sety

Though in all honesty Mobile Suits in that series were almost special ops exclusive only so most of the casualties were those on the frontlines.

One cannot simply dismiss most of the action in Wing as special ops, which imply small and stealthy operations, when we have attacks on major military bases, frontal assaults on fortifications, urban combat, and offensives crushing entire nations. Besides the Eve Wars supposedly affected everyone on the planet and in the colonies, otherwise they wouldn't have wanted to end wars altogether. It's still striking that all of these conflicts killed fewer people than regional conflicts routinely do today, much less the mass carnage of World War II.

Originally Posted by Sety

One more thing to note is Endless Waltz and some of the G-Wing sidestories kinda explained that they only had 3000 Leo's because MS production had begun on the successor to the Leo series AKA Serpents but they never made it in time. Kind of the same situation with the Gelgoog in OYW.

That still doesn't make any sense since the Leo had started production 20 years prior to that, and had been in active service and combat for the entire period. There should have been more to begin with. By comparison, the United States alone fields about 8000 M1 main battle tanks, and this is just a peacetime force.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Scroch

AEUG had I believe only one ship left after the Gryps conflict. It's been awhile since I watched ZZ, but I remember them saying the Argama was all that was left at the start of the first Neo-Zeon war.

Now that I think about it...

Spoiler for Zeta:

If that information is correct, at the end of Zeta, the Titans were pretty much all wiped out, and the only surviving elements of AEUG would be the damaged Argama and the Methuss. Given that these are insignificant military threats, why the heck did Haman Karn retreat. She could have avoided the second war altogether by just wiping out the AEUG then and there. Should retreating be considered incredible cowardice, or just terrible writing?

[Sety]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That still doesn't make any sense since the Leo had started production 20 years prior to that, and had been in active service and combat for the entire period. There should have been more to begin with.

But then again at that point in the series Leo production had been stopped a long time ago as they had switched over to Mobile Dolls plus the general lack of manpower. Though I agree casualties were little, mayhaps that could just be ammounted to MS design allowing for high safety rates. I did feel though alot of conflict in G-Wing was pretty small scale though like in Turn-A and Gryps War and it was more about political warfare. However I would just say not to take actual numbers too seriously, these are shows and its very rare they actually take into account all these little details being completely accurate.

[El_Rampajo]

The numbers don't matter in the Gundam series. The point of the show is to portray the atrocities of war and how it can effect different types of people.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Sety

But then again at that point in the series Leo production had been stopped a long time ago as they had switched over to Mobile Dolls plus the general lack of manpower. Though I agree casualties were little, mayhaps that could just be ammounted to MS design allowing for high safety rates. I did feel though alot of conflict in G-Wing was pretty small scale though like in Turn-A and Gryps War and it was more about political warfare. However I would just say not to take actual numbers too seriously, these are shows and its very rare they actually take into account all these little details being completely accurate.

Leo production weren't stopped a long time ago at all. Leos were United Earth's primary mobile suit until the mobile dolls started getting replaced halfway through the Eve Wars. One simply doesn't halt production of one's primary weapons while a war is going on. That means that while the mobile dolls were in production for less than half a year, the Leos had been in full production for the twenty years prior to that (and possibly limited production until the Eve Wars ended altogether). If we were to extend my analogy, the M1 has only been in service since 1980, a period of just 26 years.

There's no such thing as safety rates when there were wide-scale attacks on everything including built-up civilian areas. The numbers simply don't jive with a major war. While it's sort of comforting to simply not pay attention to the numbers the show provides, it doesn't make any sense to do so. If we can't even take such matter-of-fact statements to heart, then how would it be possible to take the show seriously? It's not really a matter of making the details accurate, it's more a question of whether the creators know what they are doing. Given that no solid numbers seem forthcoming for any of the other shows, it really looks like Wing is actually much better at this than any of the other works.

Originally Posted by El_Rampajo

The numbers don't matter in the Gundam series. The point of the show is to portray the atrocities of war and how it can effect different types of people.

Sure they matter. At the very least, it supplies some sort of context for the depicted events. For example, if we knew that Char attacked with 10,000 mobile suits, and that it was comprable to what the Federation could field, then their reluctance to confront him militarily makes some sort of sense. However, if he only managed a couple hundred mobile suits while the Federation had thousands, then it looks like abject cowardice. Likewise, if we knew how the numbers behind different battles, then we'd have a better picture of what's going on, and the significance of the different events. Are twenty mobile suits considered a major threat, or a minor one? What is the military significance of a single capital ship and it's complement? Without numbers, it becomes too random to tell the wheat from the chaff.

[SWPIGWANG]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Sure they matter. At the very least, it supplies some sort of context for the depicted events. For example, if we knew that Char attacked with 10,000 mobile suits, and that it was comprable to what the Federation could field, then their reluctance to confront him militarily makes some sort of sense. However, if he only managed a couple hundred mobile suits while the Federation had thousands, then it looks like abject cowardice. Likewise, if we knew how the numbers behind different battles, then we'd have a better picture of what's going on, and the significance of the different events. Are twenty mobile suits considered a major threat, or a minor one? What is the military significance of a single capital ship and it's complement? Without numbers, it becomes too random to tell the wheat from the chaff.

Tomino and the other directors didn't care, and it is mostly just deus ex machina.

The numbers estimated and given in various source books can differ by orders of magnitude. With each new series there is a chance for mass retconning like the "preproduction-type GM" in 08th MS team.

Frankly, most of the numbers are left open ended so side stories can be added at will without too much work. Even if stuff don't get animated, there needs to be a "slot in history" to insert in side plots for random novel/comic/game ideas.

Lets just look at the listing of all the MS and warship varients:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%...B8%80%E8%A6%A7
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%...B8%80%E8%A6%A7

This is pretty big. Also there is also things like "list of kills" for various aces that gives pretty high numbers, though it usually does not explain what they are. Normally, the easy assumption is that "there is always more in the background."

Of course, this run into problem when considering Z Gundam whose scale is reasonablely measurable. They can't be "insignificant" combat power wise but they lack the numbers to make sense, especially when you take into account all the stuff in The Advance of Z, Ecole Du Ciel, Gundam Sentinal and stuff. Some estimates might make the Zeon pirates actually out number AEUG or something.

As for the 3000 MS in Wing Gundam, it makes one wonder how the hell does G-Unit (the last outpost) side story work when supposely some of the most elite units are commited in the middle of nowhere.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by SWPIGWANG

Tomino and the other directors didn't care, and it is mostly just deus ex machina.

The numbers estimated and given in various source books can differ by orders of magnitude. With each new series there is a chance for mass retconning like the "preproduction-type GM" in 08th MS team.

That's pretty much what I figured; I just wished that someone could prove me wrong. If Gundam was supposed to be some sort of commentary on war, then how's the audience supposed to treat it seriously if the creators themselves don't seem to care?

Originally Posted by SWPIGWANG

Of course, this run into problem when considering Z Gundam whose scale is reasonablely measurable. They can't be "insignificant" combat power wise but they lack the numbers to make sense, especially when you take into account all the stuff in The Advance of Z, Ecole Du Ciel, Gundam Sentinal and stuff. Some estimates might make the Zeon pirates actually out number AEUG or something.

If AEUG was supposed to be so small, then why should anybody care about what they do? In particular, this would render Quattro's speech in Dakar to insignificance.

Originally Posted by SWPIGWANG

As for the 3000 MS in Wing Gundam, it makes one wonder how the hell does G-Unit (the last outpost) side story work when supposely some of the most elite units are commited in the middle of nowhere.

The 3000 figure only refers to the number of Leos Treize managed to field in the final battle. There's conceivably more, but it can't be that many because he presumably brought every combat-capable space mobile suit he could.

I've never read G-Unit, but what makes it so incompatible with 3000 Leos?