(CR) Sousou no Frieren (Frieren: Beyond Journey's End)

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

I think Flamme had figured that out in advance of that meeting.

Sure, I agree with you, but when Flamme figured out Frieren's character or placed her hopes that she'd be the one to kill the Demon King doesn't really matter in this context.

I'm just putting a reminder that this is Frieren's flashback from her perspective that was prompted from Denken saying the same thing she did in the past.
From Frieren's perspective, mages like Denken and herself who enjoy the journey of learning magic through their own efforts is how a mage from a peaceful era should be.

It's a retrospective that's implying Frieren (and by extension Denken) has a different personality trait from Serie, and that's what Flamme thinks it takes to defeat the Demon King.

[TURI123456]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

So, you think that there's some story out in the world where there are let's say "X number of great mages" of the ancient world and Frieren is the last one to be identified as such, since the others were already known? Yeah, that sounds pretty plausible.

It depends on how you consider a big story. The title was probably be something big. But so many years passed so nobody or at least very few people knows what is it in the current era. However, the fact that Frieren is the last one is not a big deal in itself she the last just because she is the last one just because things have changed in the years that past.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

It's a retrospective that's implying Frieren (and by extension Denken) has a different personality trait from Serie, and that's what Flamme thinks it takes to defeat the Demon King.

I think the egos of mages like Serie and Flamme are what gets in their way. Would either of them have joined the Hero's Party? No, they would have tried to defeat the Demon King individually and failed.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I think the egos of mages like Serie and Flamme are what gets in their way. Would either of them have joined the Hero's Party? No, they would have tried to defeat the Demon King individually and failed.

The grimoire that told Frieren about Aureole mentioned that Flamme met her old comrades there, meaning that if the story is true, she did once have allies but they died before she did.

Whether Flamme fought the Demon King at all, she's definitely not above joining a party.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I think the egos of mages like Serie and Flamme are what gets in their way. Would either of them have joined the Hero's Party? No, they would have tried to defeat the Demon King individually and failed.

Yeah, I was thinking this earlier but forgot to mention it. If we assume that the Demon King, being the strongest of a magic specialising race is (was) the world's strongest magician then another magician isn't going to be able to beat him one on one. So only a mage willing to fight in a party would have a chance... perhaps.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

The grimoire that told Frieren about Aureole mentioned that Flamme met her old comrades there, meaning that if the story is true, she did once have allies but they died before she did.

Whether Flamme fought the Demon King at all, she's definitely not above joining a party.

Hmm. Well, we could also flip that argument around and say that Flamme came to the conclusion that neither a super powerful individual mage (eg Serie) nor a powerful mage in a party (herself) would be enough, based on her own experiences.

[deadite]

It's also interesting that Flamme reached Aureole before the Demon King was slain, so the Demon King would have just been a breath away, if Flamme intended to fight him. Since Aureole is said to be in the Demon King's stomping grounds.

[Thor's Hammer]

Originally Posted by deadite

It's also interesting that Flamme reached Aureole before the Demon King was slain, so the Demon King would have just been a breath away, if Flamme intended to fight him. Since Aureole is said to be in the Demon King's stomping grounds.

Maybe Flamme visited Aureole before it was part of the Demon King's lair.

[alex_drian]

Well, if I got something of this is that Kanne and Lawine would get totally stomped by Ludger and Linie...unless you know...it rains.

Enhre and the dude of the flowers too, and Rickter probably to. His magic have physical strengh behind but with the magnitude of the spells and the need to touch the ground there is a delay.

[Twi]

To be fair, those Demons are far more competent than we give them credit for. They outright told you they lived their lives perfecting their magic and were around when the Heroes' party was cutting through thousands of demons, whereas most of these kids are green and in the case of those girls both are barely out of school.

Fern and Wirbel are the only two humans who explicitly were trained to deal with Demons, and both of them were the most competent in their groups. Same goes with Denken, who was experienced enough to plan things out and only acted as a distraction to keep Frieren from tracking down the girl who stole her bird. He knew she wouldn't kill him, which was the only thing that mattered.

[Shadow5YA]

I'd like to think that's what this arc is for: worldbuilding and putting into perspective how Fern would stack up against her peers.

Now we can see that Fern has much more experience than mages near her age, and the stronger ones with real battle experience are much older than her.

[Mad Pierrot]

As much as I love Frieren, the greenhaired girl and the blond guy really stole this part of the exam with their "edgy?" attitudes and whether or not they had questionable morals. The elder was really weird with that crosscounter out of nowhere.

[nojay]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

In ep 3 when Qual asks about the Demon King, Frieren specifically says "[we] killed him" unambiguously (in Japanese). "Defeated" is a different word.

Frieren lies to demons almost reflexively. I wouldn't trust her words in this case. It may be there are other parts of the story which discuss what happened in the big face-off but I don't recall any details.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by nojay

Frieren lies to demons almost reflexively. I wouldn't trust her words in this case. It may be there are other parts of the story which discuss what happened in the big face-off but I don't recall any details.

Umm. When have we seen Frieren lie to demons at all? I can't think of a single case. If what you said is true then you should be able to provide multiple clear examples - please do.

It also wouldn't make much sense from a story perspective if the Demon King was alive and the group knew it. If the Demon King isn't dead then he's been very quiet the last 80 years. I don't remember seeing any hints from the demons that the Demon King is alive.

I agree we don't know what went down in the final battle. But it wouldn't surprise me if Frieren was the key player in it - in ep 15, we see Heiter (in a flashback) say how he chose to believe her when she said she'd defeat the Demon King. It wouldn't surprise me if Himmel got the final blow though.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

Umm. When have we seen Frieren lie to demons at all? I can't think of a single case.

Concealing her mana is pretty much lying to them, if indirectly.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

Umm. When have we seen Frieren lie to demons at all? I can't think of a single case. If what you said is true then you should be able to provide multiple clear examples - please do.

Concealing her mana 24/7 is her way of lying to them. That's what Flamme taught her.

But even if you put that aside and only count words, she told Draht that she had no way of breaking his wires around her neck.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Concealing her mana 24/7 is her way of lying to them. That's what Flamme taught her.

Lying and deception are different things though. Anyway, the while point was whether Frieren's words to demons were reliable or not. So far they have been. If anything, Frieren said more than she needed to.

But even if you put that aside and only count words, she told Draht that she had no way of breaking his wires around her neck.

Which is why she didn't try to cut the wires and instead cut his arms. What she said was accurate. (on a side note, we got another example of indirectly dealing with problem in the latest episode when they cut down the tree instead of Frieren's binding)

[TURI123456]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

Lying and deception are different things though. Anyway, the while point was whether Frieren's words to demons were reliable or not. So far they have been. If anything, Frieren said more than she needed to.




Which is why she didn't try to cut the wires and instead cut his arms. What she said was accurate. (on a side note, we got another example of indirectly dealing with problem in the latest episode when they cut down the tree instead of Frieren's binding)

Frieren will lie if that gives her the victory there is no doubt about this.

About the Deamon King, he is probably dead. Frieren never said that she wanted to go to his castle again and we never saw her make any special preparations to take him down (a discount that she just sealed him). But we do know that something big happens when Frieren and the Hero Party meet and fight against him.

[Thor's Hammer]

Originally Posted by TURI123456

Frieren will lie if that gives her the victory there is no doubt about this.

About the Deamon King, he is probably dead. Frieren never said that she wanted to go to his castle again and we never saw her make any special preparations to take him down (a discount that she just sealed him). But we do know that something big happens when Frieren and the Hero Party meet and fight against him.

Frieren will certainly lie if it gives her victory as seen with Laufen, but in the anime, there is no evidence of her lying to demons so far. She said to Draht that she couldn't break his thread, which is a fact, since what she needed to do was cut off his arms with magic. If the Demon King had been sealed instead of killed, I believe history would look upon the Hero's Party differently. And as you said yourself, Frieren never made any preparations to visit the Demon King's castle in the future before she found out about Aureole, so all evidence points to the Demon King having been killed, which would mean she was telling Qual the truth.

If something big happened when Frieren and the Hero's Party fought the Demon King, maybe it's that Frieren put up a barrier around the area where they fought the Demon King, so none of his underlings could join the fight, making it a true 4v1 against the Demon King. As Flamme's apprentice, Frieren almost certainly had a lot of experience with barriers, which was shown in the most recent episode in which she broke a very powerful barrier made by Serie, so I believe she put up a very powerful barrier that none of the demons could break easily.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Personally, I don't think this series needs some crazy revelation about what happened with the fight against the Demon King that totally changes how we see everything. It's not that sort of series. I would certainly expect something interesting to have happened but so far the more impactful flashbacks have really been between Frieren and Himmel - the story is focused on the characters ( character development and character interaction) and not so much on plot or action. After all, the main quest is already done.

I'm sure there'll be some final obstacle to Frieren getting to Aureole (it's probably not a coincidence the Demon King's castle was built where it was) but beating the Demon King again doesn't sound very interesting to me.