(L+CR) Lord El Melloi II Case Files - Anime Discussion

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Anyway, I was thinking more about a "what if Waver participated with the aim to win" rather than to meet Iskandar again. And with Gray's help, I'm thinking he would have been one of the top dogs.

Iskander was already a top dog and only really lost because he had to protect Waver (against Saber) and he went up against the toppest of dogs (Gilgamesh).

If they had gone to Fuyuki, they'd have likely just done what Kayneth did in the 4th war and have Gray serve as a pseudo master like Sola Ui did for Diarmuid. Basically, two masters' worth of mana (which would be needed, since Waver doesn't have his crest at the moment).

Also interesting to note how much things would change in the war. He'd have replaced Bazett, so that removes Cu from the summoning. Assuming he still got Iskander as Rider again, this would shift Medusa from Rider to Lancer. All in all, not a big change to the lineup. However... without Cu, how does Shirou get involved in the war and emergency summon Saber? He wouldn't get his heart stabbed, thus no new heart needed, thus he doesn't get the Pendant. Then he doesn't have a life or death situation at home, forcing him to summon Saber.

A what-if based on this would be interesting.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by Dextro

We just need Carnival Phantasm Season 2. Make it happen Type-Moon!

I'd be there to watch it in a second .

Originally Posted by GDB

Also interesting to note how much things would change in the war. He'd have replaced Bazett, so that removes Cu from the summoning. Assuming he still got Iskander as Rider again, this would shift Medusa from Rider to Lancer. All in all, not a big change to the lineup. However... without Cu, how does Shirou get involved in the war and emergency summon Saber? He wouldn't get his heart stabbed, thus no new heart needed, thus he doesn't get the Pendant. Then he doesn't have a life or death situation at home, forcing him to summon Saber.

After watching the Grand Order OVA...I'd say a triumphant "yes" to that .

[orion]

Originally Posted by GDB

Iskander was already a top dog and only really lost because he had to protect Waver (against Saber) and he went up against the toppest of dogs (Gilgamesh).

If they had gone to Fuyuki, they'd have likely just done what Kayneth did in the 4th war and have Gray serve as a pseudo master like Sola Ui did for Diarmuid. Basically, two masters' worth of mana (which would be needed, since Waver doesn't have his crest at the moment).

Also interesting to note how much things would change in the war. He'd have replaced Bazett, so that removes Cu from the summoning. Assuming he still got Iskander as Rider again, this would shift Medusa from Rider to Lancer. All in all, not a big change to the lineup. However... without Cu, how does Shirou get involved in the war and emergency summon Saber? He wouldn't get his heart stabbed, thus no new heart needed, thus he doesn't get the Pendant. Then he doesn't have a life or death situation at home, forcing him to summon Saber.

A what-if based on this would be interesting.

He sees Medusa Lancer who hacks him to bits with her NP (which is stronger than Cu's) instead of one jab like Cu did as both are single-target servants. Comes back to life if Rin was able to piece him back together, then has to summon Saber as Medusa comes back to finish the job. So Shirou was lucky that Waver was not in the Grail War with him.

[AC-Phoenix]

"I think Reines holds her drink a bit too well"
Yes she does... Oh yes she does.

Especially considering how she shouldn't drink at all.

Also poor Ak.. Being punished for speaking Grey's mind.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by orion

He sees Medusa Lancer who hacks him to bits with her NP (which is stronger than Cu's) instead of one jab like Cu did as both are single-target servants. Comes back to life if Rin was able to piece him back together, then has to summon Saber as Medusa comes back to finish the job. So Shirou was lucky that Waver was not in the Grail War with him.

But Medusa would have no reason to do that, just as she didn't in the real war. The only way to maintain that basic structure is to have Kirei commandeer Assassin and use it to scout like he did with Cu. But he'd have to do it after Medea had use Sasaki to fend off Heracles, or she'd be dead before Shirou even summoned Saber.

[orion]

Originally Posted by GDB

But Medusa would have no reason to do that, just as she didn't in the real war. The only way to maintain that basic structure is to have Kirei commandeer Assassin and use it to scout like he did with Cu. But he'd have to do it after Medea had use Sasaki to fend off Heracles, or she'd be dead before Shirou even summoned Saber.

Yeah, she would have a reason. They were not supposed to leave witnesses. Shirou was a witness to the battle between Archer and Lancer. The battle could still happen it's just the masters are switched.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by orion

Yeah, she would have a reason. They were not supposed to leave witnesses. Shirou was a witness to the battle between Archer and Lancer. The battle could still happen it's just the masters are switched.

Well presumably Medusa would still be contracted to Sakura, then sub-contracted to Shinji, which means Archer would shred her in seconds.

[orion]

Originally Posted by XFire

Well presumably Medusa would still be contracted to Sakura, then sub-contracted to Shinji, which means Archer would shred her in seconds.

Lancer had the class advantage in that skirmish. Medusa Lancer has charm, guts and invincibility as her skills and stun in her NP. She prob could kill Archer.

Besides, the only way to survive Cu is by him letting you or RNG.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by orion

Yeah, she would have a reason. They were not supposed to leave witnesses. Shirou was a witness to the battle between Archer and Lancer. The battle could still happen it's just the masters are switched.

But she wasn't there. There's zero reason for her to be fighting Archer there. Cu was only there because Kirei had him scouting out and testing the capabilities of all the Servants. Medusa wouldn't be doing that.

Originally Posted by orion

Lancer had the class advantage in that skirmish. Medusa Lancer has charm, guts and invincibility as her skills and stun in her NP. She prob could kill Archer.

Class advantage is only in FGO, not actual wars. The closest thing to an advantage is Knights vs Caster due to Magic Resistance.

[XFire]

Wait he wasn't joking about class advantage?

[orion]

Originally Posted by XFire

Wait he wasn't joking about class advantage?

No, I wasn't. In FGO, there is class advantage which forms the basis of how we fight. We deal with 3 triangles and 3 squares in FGO with regards to this. Another way to view this advantage is to look at this link.

https://fategrandorder.fandom.com/wiki/Servants

Basically, Lancers have class advantage over Archers. Sabers have class advantage over Lancers. Archers have class advantage over Sabers. Beserkers kill all and can be killed by all. Riders have class advantage over Casters. Assassins have class advantage over Riders.

Rin wanted Saber for a reason. She's a Saber-class servant (tanky, kills a lot), but Saber Alter is better (tanky, kills more than Arturia, cost less).

[4th Dimension]

Whouldn't he just get murdered by Kirei so he can take his Servant? Didn't he do that to Bazzet?

[GDB]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

Whouldn't he just get murdered by Kirei so he can take his Servant? Didn't he do that to Bazzet?

He was able to do that because Bazett trusted him, as he was once the same profession as her. Waver wouldn't trust Kirei at all.

Originally Posted by orion

No, I wasn't. In FGO, there is class advantage which forms the basis of how we fight. We deal with 3 triangles and 3 squares in FGO with regards to this. Another way to view this advantage is to look at this link.

https://fategrandorder.fandom.com/wiki/Servants

Basically, Lancers have class advantage over Archers. Sabers have class advantage over Lancers. Archers have class advantage over Sabers. Beserkers kill all and can be killed by all. Riders have class advantage over Casters. Assassins have class advantage over Riders.

Rin wanted Saber for a reason. She's a Saber-class servant (tanky, kills a lot), but Saber Alter is better (tanky, kills more than Arturia, cost less).

Again, that's only in the game. That's not how any of this works in actual lore. Rin wanted Saber because it's touted as being the strongest class container.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by orion

No, I wasn't. In FGO, there is class advantage which forms the basis of how we fight. We deal with 3 triangles and 3 squares in FGO with regards to this. Another way to view this advantage is to look at this link.

https://fategrandorder.fandom.com/wiki/Servants

Basically, Lancers have class advantage over Archers. Sabers have class advantage over Lancers. Archers have class advantage over Sabers. Beserkers kill all and can be killed by all. Riders have class advantage over Casters. Assassins have class advantage over Riders.

Rin wanted Saber for a reason. She's a Saber-class servant (tanky, kills a lot), but Saber Alter is better (tanky, kills more than Arturia, cost less).

Those are game mechanics, they have nothing to do with the in-universe servants and fights

Saber is typically the strongest class summoned (supposedly) and if Rin had been her Master Saber would have been the strongest Servant summoned in the Fifth Grail War. Gil still trumps her because he trumps everyone, but he was from the Fourth technically.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Applehell

I mean sure and I wouldn't care all that much until Waver said he was surpassed him. They make big deal about Waver being a Lord and without ever mentioning he had another rank and not really clarifying difference here. That why mentioning the other ranking system would have helped. It's minor part of episode sure but it is still valid criticism. I don't intend blow up or anything just pointing out the annoyance.

You can just Google that.

Anyway Waver is "Fes" which is basically honorable tittle non-indicative of power level given for unique achievements and unusual abilities. He got it along with Lord tittle, because anything less would be unacceptable for position and he is weakling. That said "Fes" are also has complete monsters like Bazzet or specialist like Melvin.

[magnuskn]

Holy shit, the OST is from another world. Epic.

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Holy shit, the OST is from another world. Epic.

Kajiura-san

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by XFire

Those are game mechanics, they have nothing to do with the in-universe servants and fights

Saber is typically the strongest class summoned (supposedly) and if Rin had been her Master Saber would have been the strongest Servant summoned in the Fifth Grail War. Gil still trumps her because he trumps everyone, but he was from the Fourth technically.

You can argue about that.
There is very little Saber could do against Unlimited Bladeworks, where the swords come from all sides, and Avalon seems to work like a forward shield rather than all side protection.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

You can argue about that.
There is very little Saber could do against Unlimited Bladeworks, where the swords come from all sides, and Avalon seems to work like a forward shield rather than all side protection.

She can just blast him with Excalibur

[Cosmic Eagle]

Finished the last ep. Gotta say that was perhaps the best TV anime of summer for me. Need to see more of this animated. Hopefully that Iselma case with Touko. Need to show her inside Fate timeline for once.

Waver and his circle deserve to be more popular amongst the Fate fandom. Too under-represented in all those doujins and artworks. Oh, and Gray in that shot where she hands Waver her gift was so pretty....totally looking like Arturia's child there