High School DxD [LN/M] - Volume 25 Discussion / Poll

[Parry999]

Crom didn't promote though. He wasn't giving it his all yet. The Gap between Crom and Azi Dahaka was huge since DxD L took him out pretty fast.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Parry999

Crom didn't promote though. He wasn't giving it his all yet. The Gap between Crom and Azi Dahaka was huge since DxD L took him out pretty fast.

Him promoting wasn't part of the initial evaluation of "stronger than Ddraig/Albion".

And you're right, there is a fair sized gap. Doesn't change that Azi is HD-class, though.

[Blazor 98]

Originally Posted by Parry999

Crom didn't promote though. He wasn't giving it his all yet. The Gap between Crom and Azi Dahaka was huge since DxD L took him out pretty fast.

You underestimate Azi and Apophis. Issei and Vali struggled in those fights. Even though they won, it wasn't a cake walk. Azi and Apophis did significant damage to their DxD forms and both had to use Longinus Smasher to end it. The gap between them and Crom isn't huge at all. If anything either Azi or Apophis could give Crom a hard time.

As for Crom giving his all. What makes you think he wasn't? Considering Vali is one of the opponent he wanted to fight the most it wouldn't make sense for him to.hold back.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Blazor 98

You underestimate Azi and Apophis. Issei and Vali struggled in those fights. Even though they won, it wasn't a cake walk. Azi and Apophis did significant damage to their DxD forms and both had to use Longinus Smasher to end it. The gap between them and Crom isn't huge at all. If anything either Azi or Apophis could give Crom a hard time.

As for Crom giving his all. What makes you think he wasn't? Considering Vali is one of the opponent he wanted to fight the most it wouldn't make sense for him to.hold back.

The fights weren't easy, but Issei and Vali in DxD maintained a clear upper hand in the fight as opposed to what happened with Crom.

And he didn't use a promotion despite it being available to him. Though I think that was more of a pride thing than a restraint one.

[Parry999]

@Blazor 98 your assuming Vali didn't get stronger during the time skip when everyone else did.

[Emperor of D.]

Well, it's hard to judge the 3 evil dragons because each of their compatability but I will do my best.

1.) Crom is regarded as the strongest evil dragon even though it's been stated multiple times all 3 evil dragons are comparable to each other in strength. From the way I see it, Crom has the most raw power and above the other 2 in physical stats like he is when it comes to Ddraig and Albion.

2.) Azi Dahaka main threat is his ridiculous amounts of magic. Vali had the means to counter Azi's magic because of his abilities such has "Half-Dimension" and "Satan Compression Divider". Now if it was Issei fighting Azi then I would see Issei having a really hard time because he don't have abilities that can counter Azi's wide array of magic. Vali capability is he can spread wide-range damage while Issei is more linear.

3.) Apophis main threat is his darkness ability which melt things on contact and also that he can cover blind spots and weaknesses. Issei had the power of infinity which allowed him to bypass Apophis darkness ability. Now if Vali fought then I could see Vali having a harder time then he would against Azi because Apophis darkness ability is broken and can do more damage to Vali's armor than what Azi did because it can destroy and melt on contact. Vali has a wider range but so does Apophis because of black water. Issei had the means to counter Apophis abilities just like Vali had the means to counter Azi Dahaka.

Now if Crom fought either Azi Dahaka or Apophis then he would definitely be struggling because of their OP abilities even though they have less raw power so the gap between Crom and the other 2 isn't large.

[Femt0]

@EternalDragon i think that Millicas has the same amount of demonic power that Vali had when he was his age.

@Blazor IIRC Fenrir was subdue by Vali's JD,Arthur's excalibur ruler and the chains of gleipnir.

And i don't know why is so hard to believe that Shiva has dragon god class power considering the hints or rather evidences that has been brought out. Trihexa while being very powerful has notable weaknesses, lack of speed, being a mindless beast, predictable attack pattern, has how it was mentioned that the people trap with him in the barrier has getting use to fighting him. The only reason Shiva thinks he can't kill him is because of his hax regeneration. I kind of picture it like this, if the people in the barrier fail and Trihexa breaks free then Shiva goes to battle him causing a max destruction to the world in the process bringing the life on earth to the edge of extinction.He then beats Trihexa to the point that Trihexa needs to concentrate all of his power into regeneration and enters into a defensive estate kind of like the winged dragon of Ra sphere mode in yu gi oh, then Shiva uses that chance to seal him.

[XFire]

Crom powered through the techniques Vali used to stop Azi's magic, and Apophis said himself he's bad with power types. He's above them both by a comfortable margin.

[EternalDragonGod Ise]

So just because Shiva can seal 666 he is DragonGod-class ? What is Rossweise than who created a Seal for 666 ? I am a Shiva-Fanboy and think he deserves his own Class, but not Dragon God-Class. Just because he is the nearest to them doesnt put him in the same Class. The Gap is to immense. And Vishnu and Brahma are not much weaker than Shiva, they are said to be equal (at least in real Myth). I can understand that Ichiei made Shiva stronger but i dont belive the Gap is this giant. Its his Domain that put him most likely above the other Two. But also this Two have Hax Abilitys.

Apophis Drakness ability is truly broken. He would give Vali a really hard Time, just like Azi Dahaka would give Ise a hard Time. But I dont think Ise can bring only linear Damage, not at all. He can also bring wide-range damage.

But we should wait, maybe it will be said in what Class Shiva is or not, the one who decides that is Ichiei. And everyone has his own Opinion! You can think he is DragonGod-Class, we think he is not, for now at least. Maybe your right, maybe we are, nobody knows that except Ichiei who is to vague with to many things. he really should stop that and go deeper in ther Costums of the World (like MknR)! Like give is a new Top 10 or even Top 100 List, and in what Class this Beings belong to. What Ability they have (like the Hax Ability from Great Red, Ophis and the Trimurti would be nice to know what they do).

[yuiichi9]

I remember that it said that the gap between the 1st and 2nd place among the top 10 strongest being is huge. Don't remember which volume it said that. So maybe the strongest being have far more raw power than shiva.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by EternalDragonGod Ise

So just because Shiva can seal 666 he is DragonGod-class ? What is Rossweise than who created a Seal for 666 ? I am a Shiva-Fanboy and think he deserves his own Class, but not Dragon God-Class. Just because he is the nearest to them doesnt put him in the same Class. The Gap is to immense. And Vishnu and Brahma are not much weaker than Shiva, they are said to be equal (at least in real Myth). I can understand that Ichiei made Shiva stronger but i dont belive the Gap is this giant. Its his Domain that put him most likely above the other Two. But also this Two have Hax Abilitys.

Apophis Drakness ability is truly broken. He would give Vali a really hard Time, just like Azi Dahaka would give Ise a hard Time. But I dont think Ise can bring only linear Damage, not at all. He can also bring wide-range damage.

But we should wait, maybe it will be said in what Class Shiva is or not, the one who decides that is Ichiei. And everyone has his own Opinion! You can think he is DragonGod-Class, we think he is not, for now at least. Maybe your right, maybe we are, nobody knows that except Ichiei who is to vague with to many things. he really should stop that and go deeper in ther Costums of the World (like MknR)! Like give is a new Top 10 or even Top 100 List, and in what Class this Beings belong to. What Ability they have (like the Hax Ability from Great Red, Ophis and the Trimurti would be nice to know what they do).

Rose created a seal that was then powered by several dozen God class beings. It still required said beings to lock themselves inside the seal to keep it from breaking out.

Shiva was going to beat it up and seal it himself.

Comparing the two is false equivalence, so don't do that.

Using real myths to judge DxD characters is never a good idea. In particular Vishnu and Brahma are part of that Alliance Trihexia was going to kill before Shiva even intervened.

And before you say it, compatibility wasn't the issue. "Destruction" doesn't work on Trihexia, so Shiva's hax was not a factor in that difference. And it certainly isn't raw power, because of they were close to him in strength then either he's far too weak to fight alone or they should be able to beat Trihexia between them. They logically can't be his equals.

Apophis' ability can be overpowered and Crom's raw strength is greater than Ise's.

And if you don't think we should draw our own conclusions, why comment on the discussion?

[DragonOsman]

@Eternal: You say you're a Shiva fanboy, but you still underestimate Shiva. Even after he saw what Trihexa can do, he didn't actually retract his previous statement about being the only one aside from Great Red and Ophis in her prime that can stop Trihexa (by himself). He just amended it by adding that because his "Destruction" isn't enough to destroy it, all he can do is beat it up to the point it can't do anything except maybe regenerate and then seal it. And like XFire said, he'll be able to do that all by himself and won't even need to go inside the seal with it. Do you get that?

But Cao Cao did say in Volume 11 that the gap between Ophis in her prime and Shiva is so huge that prime Ophis would be on a completely different level. If the gap is that big, can Shiva really be Dragon God-class? Or did Ishibumi decide to retcon that with Shiva's statements in Volume 19 chapter "Rudra" and Volume 20 chapter "Deterrence" respectively? I really wish Ishibumi would make it clear if Shiva is on par with Trihexa in terms of power level or not.

[XFire]

GR/Ophis (complete) > Trihexia > Shiva. Take out Trihexia and there's a pretty good gap there.

However....

Albion/Ddraig > Crom >= Issei/Vali > Apophis/Azi Dahaka. Remove Crom, Issei, and Vali and there's a pretty substantial gap between Apophis/Azi and Albion/Ddraig. They're still in the same group.

Again, the reason Shiva is DG-class is because if you put Ophis at 100%....

• 100% Ophis
• 97% Trihexia
• 95% Shiva
• .00001% idk Ddraig/Albion/Crom?

Obviously those numbers are arbitrary on my part, but while that gap between Shiva and Ophis is fairly significant, he's definitely in the same category as her while everyone else flat out isn't.

[Emperor of D.]

Originally Posted by XFire

Crom powered through the techniques Vali used to stop Azi's magic, and Apophis said himself he's bad with power types. He's above them both by a comfortable margin.

Of course he powered through Vali's techniques. Again, I already said that Cromwell has more raw power than the other 2 dragons but the gap between him and the other 2 isn't large at all.

[DragonOsman]

@XFire: The way I interpret Cao Cao's statement from Volume 11 is that the gap between prime Ophis and Shiva is like Heaven and Earth. Which is why what Shiva said in Volumes 19 and 20 seems like a retcon to me. Either way, I hope Ishibumi will clarify.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Emperor of D.

Of course he powered through Vali's techniques. Again, I already said that Cromwell has more raw power than the other 2 dragons but the gap between him and the other 2 isn't large at all.

He powered through the techniques of Vali, who is stronger than either of the other two. There's at least two degrees of separation here.

[Emperor of D.]

Originally Posted by XFire

He powered through the techniques of Vali, who is stronger than either of the other two. There's at least two degrees of separation here.

Again, I know because Crom has more raw power compared to the other two. Azi and Apophis are dangerous because of their abilities not raw power while Crom is dangerous because of his raw power due to lack of abilities. If Crom's raw power was on the same level as Vali or Azi then Vali could beat Crom with little difficulty. All Crom had was superior raw power which allowed him to fight Vali. And yes Vali did beat Azi but Azi still gave him a tough time just like how Vali gave Crom a hard time so the gap isn't huge. If anything I would say Azi or Apophis is roughly 85% to 90% of Crom Cruach in overall battle power.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Emperor of D.

Again, I know because Crom has more raw power compared to the other two. Azi and Apophis are dangerous because of their abilities not raw power while Crom is dangerous because of his raw power due to lack of abilities. If Crom's raw power was on the same level as Vali or Azi then Vali could beat Crom with little difficulty. All Crom had was superior raw power which allowed him to fight Vali. And yes Vali did beat Azi but Azi still gave him a tough time just like how Vali gave Crom a hard time so the gap isn't huge. If anything I would say Azi or Apophis is roughly 85% to 90% of Crom Cruach in overall battle power.

Vali was faster than Crom and had numerous abilities centered around weakening an opponent. He was on the defensive for the entire fight (that we see anyway). Azi or Apophis' techniques wouldn't have been any more effective and the power gap is even greater.

I can agree with the percentage you put forward, but I think you're underestimating the difference that makes in a fight. "10%" is near insurmountable in a one-v-one fight.

[B214]

@xfire, you just don't get it do you? Ophis form Khaos Brigade to beat Great Red, so Great Red is stronger than Ophis. Shiva is the last defence line against 666 and can seal 666, so he is able to fight 666 alone and is close to Dragon God Class. Do you see the similarity here? People are using mentioned info and treating it as facts without actually knowing if it is true or not.

[Emperor of D.]

Originally Posted by XFire

Vali was faster than Crom and had numerous abilities centered around weakening an opponent. He was on the defensive for the entire fight (that we see anyway). Azi or Apophis' techniques wouldn't have been any more effective and the power gap is even greater.

I can agree with the percentage you put forward, but I think you're underestimating the difference that makes in a fight. "10%" is near insurmountable in a one-v-one fight.

I didn't say Azi or Apophis could beat Crom but they are still strong enough to give Crom a hard time. For Azi he can attack from multiple angles simultaneously due to his quantity of forbidden magic. Vali had the means to counter because his attacks can spread at a wide-range. We have to remember Crom only has basic abilities and not saying that makes him inferior but it gives him limited options. For Apophis, Crom will have just a hard time because of Apophis darkness which can melt anything on contact and his black water. Issei had the power of infinity which nullified the effects but Crom doesn't have that. In Crom's case he could beat them but he was suffer a lot of damage because he has no countermeasure for any of them. You have to take into account compatibility.

For example Issei DxD G was able to beat Rizevim but could you say Vali DxD L could beat him? Vali has nothing that could stop his Sacred Gear canceller.