High School DxD [LN/M] - Volume 25 Discussion / Poll

[Lucidrago]

You're drawing conclusions when you don't even have all the necessary information. You have no idea what Indra's powers and abilities are.

All we know is that both Sirzechs(True Form) and Indra are in the Top 10. That's all we can say.

Indra has power that rivals the current Yondai-Maou's combined. Not just four Maou-class beings combined. But Sirzechs, Ajuka, Serafall, and Falbium specifically. That doesn't necessarily equate to having 4x the aura of a Maou as you're suggesting.

That's just too much information you don't know to draw a conclusion like that.

[B214]

Originally Posted by XFire

We know that the four Yondai Maou together could "rival" him in combat.

And that Sirzechs is ten times more powerful than Lucifer, a devil noted for his extremely high level of power, despite being a technique type.

That alone is more than enough to draw a basic conclusion.

It's a weak conclusion at best. What weapon did Indra have? What ability do Indra have etc. You have almost zero info on Indra, so honestly tell me, you thinking Sirzechs is stronger is more of a speculation or it's a basic conclusion from known info. Cause if you want to say it's a basic conclusion from info known, then you shouldn't miss out mentioning 2 points.

1. Hindu Gods have cheat like abilities
2. They're place in upper ranks of the Top 10.

Just base on this, we can also say Indra's cheat like ability could put him above Sirzechs.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

You're drawing conclusions when you don't even have all the necessary information. You have no idea what Indra's powers and abilities are.

All we know is that both Sirzechs(True Form) and Indra are in the Top 10. That's all we can say.

Indra has power that rivals the current Yondai-Maou's combined. Not just four Maou-class beings combined. But Sirzechs, Ajuka, Serafall, and Falbium specifically. That doesn't necessarily equate to having 4x the aura of a Maou as you're suggesting.

That's just too much information you don't know to draw a conclusion like that.

His powers and abilities can be countered by the Yondai Maou when Sirzechs and Abuja aren't serious.

Sirzechs is equal to a guy whose ability is f***ing reality warping at will.

There is a massive power gap between him and Indra.

Raw power is Sirzechs weakest characteristic as a technique type.

We have one statement on Indra's combat capability and that puts him far below TF Sirzechs.

Originally Posted by B214

It's a weak conclusion at best. What weapon did Indra have? What ability do Indra have etc. You have almost zero info on Indra, so honestly tell me, you thinking Sirzechs is stronger is more of a speculation or it's a basic conclusion from known info. Cause if you want to say it's a basic conclusion from info known, then you shouldn't miss out mentioning 2 points.

1. Hindu Gods have cheat like abilities
2. They're place in upper ranks of the Top 10.

Just base on this, we can also say Indra's cheat like ability could put him above Sirzechs.

No you can't, and suggesting you can is ridiculous. The "top ten" didn't include nearly a dozen people who would all rank in the "upper ranks" of the top ten. Ddraig, Albion, Trihexia, Ise and Vali with DxD, Crom, Apophis, Azi Dahaka, Sirzechs, Ajuka, Vidar, etc. All of them superior in some way, via combat or scaling, to one of the members Ishi listed as being in "no particular order".

And Indra is the weakest of the Hindu gods in the rankings supposing the pillar gods are closer to Shiva.

What we know is that Indra can, in combat, be equaled by the Yondai Maou without Sirzechs or Ajuka being serious. Meanwhile Sirzechs, a technique type, has ten times the raw power of the original Lucifer, whose whole thing is having a metric assload of power.

Sirzechs as of now has significantly better hype and statements supporting him. Trying to say we can't draw a conclusion from that is no different from saying we can't conclude Indra would beat Saji in combat because we don't know Indra's abilities.

[DragonOsman]

Lucidrago and B214, you two seem to be missing one key point: The Top 10 rankings are based on power. I honestly don't think that just ranking them in the Top 10 requires us to factor in their abilities or even overall combat ability, since those things are only factored in when two or more people among the Top 10 are fighting each other. Ophis before she lost her power was number 1. Because she'd had the highest amount of raw power out of everyone in existence aside from Great Red who was her equal.

Based on that, yes, we actually can say that Sirzechs is more powerful than a freaking Maou-class being. Maou-class beings don't even register within the Top 10. Sirzechs is powerful enough to be the current number 2. IMO. And I'd say he's on par with the Two Heavenly Dragons in their primes in terms of power.

Also, Indra does have hax cheat-like abilities, but again, since the Top 10 rankings are based on power and power alone, I'm not including them here. I'd say Indra, in terms of pure power alone, would be below the Two Heavenly Dragons. So either number 3 or number 4.

@AP24: Ophis' power is currently sealed, and she seemed to also have lost the traits of "infinite" within her power somehow when Samael took her power. According to Azazel in Volume 12 "New Life", she is currently just a "Dragon God that's a bit strong". She doesn't even belong in the Top 10 anymore. Also, Crom Cruach is also Heavenly Dragon-class. Ddraig said he trained up to his and Albion's level with just the basic abilities of a dragon, and Albion said he surpassed him and Ddraig. But the way I interpret that is that Crom only surpassed them in base stats. And the gap isn't that big, either. So Crom is, again, still Heavenly Dragon-class. And Heavenly Dragon-class beings belong in the Top 10. Have you read the Volume 25 spoilers? Ddraig and Albion even without their abilities are OP. I'd put them in number 2. And Ophis in her prime was said to be equal to Great Red. They're the two Dragon Gods, so they're Dragon God-class if we count Ophis at full power. Just like how Ddraig and Albion are equal in terms of power and are both Heavenly Dragon-class.

Edit: One post late.
Here's the passage from the Volume 13 Afterword where the list is mentioned:

Fifth point, the questions I receive a lot from the readers.

I received many support letters and questions from the readers. So I am thinking of answering several of those asked often here. The question I received a lot is this one.

“Who would be among the top 10 strongest in the world that Vali was speaking about in volume 4?”

It was even written in the message that the fans are also debating about this. …..Seems like everyone are interested in it. I do have the setting of it just in case, so I will announce it here. Of course it is a DxD original ranking.

In no particular order Ophis, Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma, Śakra, Thor, Typhon (Or Fenrir), Hades, Aten, and Lugh.

That’s how it is. Great Red isn’t included because it is a creature who basically doesn’t fight (I get many claim that this isn’t true!), and it is the ranking before Ophis and Fenrir lost their powers. What you will have to pay attention to are the Hindu mythology which hasn’t appeared in the series yet. Well, those who know about their mythology know it, but the Hindu Gods all have cheat-like abilities. If I make them appear in DxD, it will turn out like the battle in Dragon Ball, so I controlled myself. The Hindu mythology will be placed in the higher ranks of the Top-10 strongest that Vali spoke about. It truly is terrifying. If DxD continues to go on for much longer, I’m thinking of doing “The Destruction God Shiva arc” as a last resort. So I have no plan to make them appear until then. By the way the true Sirzechs and the serious Ajuka will be placed among the ranks.

Ddraig and Albion would also belong on the list if they had their flesh bodies. Again, I'd put them in the current number 2 spot.

[B214]

Originally Posted by XFire

His powers and abilities can be countered by the Yondai Maou when Sirzechs and Abuja aren't serious.

Sirzechs is equal to a guy whose ability is f***ing reality warping at will.

There is a massive power gap between him and Indra.

Raw power is Sirzechs weakest characteristic as a technique type.

We have one statement on Indra's combat capability and that puts him far below TF Sirzechs.



No you can't, and suggesting you can is ridiculous. The "top ten" didn't include nearly a dozen people who would all rank in the "upper ranks" of the top ten. Ddraig, Albion, Trihexia, Ise and Vali with DxD, Crom, Apophis, Azi Dahaka, Sirzechs, Ajuka, Vidar, etc. All of them superior in some way, via combat or scaling, to one of the members Ishi listed as being in "no particular order".

And Indra is the weakest of the Hindu gods in the rankings supposing the pillar gods are closer to Shiva.

What we know is that Indra can, in combat, be equaled by the Yondai Maou without Sirzechs or Ajuka being serious. Meanwhile Sirzechs, a technique type, has ten times the raw power of the original Lucifer, whose whole thing is having a metric assload of power.

Sirzechs as of now has significantly better hype and statements supporting him. Trying to say we can't draw a conclusion from that is no different from saying we can't conclude Indra would beat Saji in combat because we don't know Indra's abilities.

All the bolded parts, do you have proof for it or are you just speculating and treating it as facts. Cause as far as i remember, Ishibumi never mentioned it. Proof to me that your argument isn't just facts you thought up. I'm not saying Sirzechs is weaker but you're currently claiming Indra is weaker when the author didn't outright confirm it so how are we suppose to agree with you. You claim Sirzechs to have better feats, but that's because we have zero feats on Indra. That's not a proper comparison.

Did Azazel say he has ten times raw power than the previous Lucifer? Cause i only recall him saying aura, is aura = power? Cause the last i check power can also be raw physical strength like Sairaorg.

[DragonOsman]

Raw power is synonymous with aura. Only reason Ise doesn't have power output equal to Ddraig in the True Queen is because the True Queen is incomplete and Ise isn't strong enough to access all of Ddraig's aura and power yet. Sirzechs, on the other hand, has had literally hundreds of years to reach his full potential so I think it's safe to say his raw power is equal to how much aura he has. It's also by sensing Balberith and Verrine's aura that it can be said that they're Super Devils, and that Balberith has the potential to be able to fight a Dragon God.

[Lucidrago]

Not necessarily. Raw power is what Sairaorg and Issei uses which is largely due to their trait as a power-type. Do you ever see Sirzechs fighting in a 'raw power' sort of way?

You just equated aura with raw power when you have no evidence backing up your claim.

Raw power would fit more with your fighting style more than how strong you are. Issei and Sairaorg most likely have more raw power than Sirzechs, but he would be stronger than them. It's more due to the way they fight.

Does Rias having more raw power than Cao Cao make her stronger than him?

[XFire]

Originally Posted by B214

All the bolded parts, do you have proof for it or are you just speculating and treating it as facts. Cause as far as i remember, Ishibumi never mentioned it. Proof to me that your argument isn't just facts you thought up. I'm not saying Sirzechs is weaker but you're currently claiming Indra is weaker when the author didn't outright confirm it so how are we suppose to agree with you. You claim Sirzechs to have better feats, but that's because we have zero feats on Indra. That's not a proper comparison.

Shiva is number 2 and the other two are his fellow pillar gods, who rank above Indra in the Hindu mythology. Hence why I said "supposing" they're closer to their peer than the lesser God.

I'm claiming Indra is weaker based on two statements the author made involving the same metric being compared to them both.

And I never said anything about feats. I said hype and statements. Sirzechs are better than Indra's and that's literally all we can judge him on. Trying to given him a position his hype doesn't justify is silly.

Originally Posted by B214

Did Azazel say he has ten times raw power than the previous Lucifer? Cause i only recall him saying aura, is aura = power? Cause the last i check power can also be raw physical strength like Sairaorg.

Aura is power. The strength of ones aura has always been a way to measure ones power. Issei measures Ddraigs that way, Vali's EJOD is shown to be stronger via the increase in aura, Boosting increases the aura of its target when it's used as a generic strengthener, etc. This has always been a thing.

Sairong physical strength comes from Touki, which he explicitly uses in place of traditional methods of power. He uses it in essentially the same way Issei uses aura.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

Not necessarily. Raw power is what Sairaorg and Issei uses which is largely due to their trait as a power-type. Do you ever see Sirzechs fighting in a 'raw power' sort of way?

You just equated aura with raw power when you have no evidence backing up your claim.

Raw power would fit more with your fighting style more than how strong you are. Issei and Sairaorg most likely have more raw power than Sirzechs, but he would be stronger than them. It's more due to the way they fight.

Does Rias having more raw power than Cao Cao make her stronger than him?

Issei uses aura to fight in that manner. Sairong does the same but uses Touki in place of aura.

Aura is the amount of energy you can produce and use. As in the "power level" of a character in terms of energy.

Sirzechs is ten times that of a Maou focused on power while being a technique type. You're not helping your cause here.

[B214]

Originally Posted by XFire

Shiva is number 2 and the other two are his fellow pillar gods, who rank above Indra in the Hindu mythology. Hence why I said "supposing" they're closer to their peer than the lesser God.

I'm claiming Indra is weaker based on two statements the author made involving the same metric being compared to them both.

And I never said anything about feats. I said hype and statements. Sirzechs are better than Indra's and that's literally all we can judge him on. Trying to given him a position his hype doesn't justify is silly.



Aura is power. The strength of ones aura has always been a way to measure ones power. Issei measures Ddraigs that way, Vali's EJOD is shown to be stronger via the increase in aura, Boosting increases the aura of its target when it's used as a generic strengthener, etc. This has always been a thing.

Sairong physical strength comes from Touki, which he explicitly uses in place of traditional methods of power. He uses it in essentially the same way Issei uses aura.

Sairaorg's physical strength didn't come from the Touki, the Touki was due to Sairaorg's physical strength passing its limit.

[DragonOsman]

It's like you aren't paying attention to what you read at all. Both you and B214. Sirzechs has reached his full potential, so in his case, his amount of aura and Demonic Power is equal to how much power he has. And I'd say his aura is equal to how much Demonic Power he has as well because, again, he was born with abnormally high Demonic Power for a Devil already and therefore wouldn't need to try to get any other kind of power. Unlike Sairaorg who has barely any Demonic Power and has to rely on Touki and his fists.

Also, note that even though Sirzechs is a Technique-type, he does have the power to be able to fight well as a Power-type. He just chooses not to because he seems to prefer using his power in a Technique-like way. What I think is that Sirzechs' power and aura alone put him on par with the Two Heavenly Dragons in their primes but that instead of using his power directly like a Power-type, he instead focuses on using his power to fight in a Technique-like way. It's the same with Vali and Albion. Albion has power equal to Ddraig's who is a Power-type, but he fights in a Technique-like way. Vali is like Albion.

Edit: Three posts late (one of which is XFire's double-post).
@B214: Fact still remains that Sairaorg uses his Touki as aura. Ise's overall aura is also his Demonic Power and Draconic Power combined. Sirzechs' aura just happens to all be from his Demonic Power.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by B214

Sairaorg's physical strength didn't come from the Touki, the Touki was due to Sairaorg's physical strength passing its limit.

Uh what?

He shrouds himself in Touki to boost his physical strength the same way Issei does with aura.

[B214]

Originally Posted by XFire

Uh what?

He shrouds himself in Touki to boost his physical strength the same way Issei does with aura.

Did he use that in V9, when he shattered Ise's armor? Don't forget, he was even using heavy seals in that sparring match.

Also

[…..What a guy. He’s wearing the Touki. And the rich density of it which makes it visible this much…….]

[So you are saying that combatant Sairaorg knows how to battle using the ki?]

The broadcaster asks Sensei who also has suspicions about it.

[No. I haven’t received any information that he learnt how to use senjutsu.]

Emperor Belial continues after Sensei.

[Yes. He hasn’t learnt even a single bit of Sennjutsu at all. That is a Touki which has awoken after he continued to train his taijutsu. His body which pursued for pure power gained a power different to demonic-power, and it is the base of life itself and he is wearing it around his body. You can say that the excess vitality and life force within him has spurted out and made it visible.]

[XFire]

Originally Posted by B214

Did he use that in V9, when he shattered Ise's armor? Also

.........boi.

"He's wearing the touki."

"He's wearing it around his body."

You

You literally just quoted exactly what I was talking about.

That's exactly how Issei uses aura. Hell, that's what Scale Mail basically is.

Edit: you, uh, you think he sealed his muscles for the match? Locked his biceps so they couldn't provide any power?

He sealed his touki, my dude. It's literally just life force used as power. He's using it as a substitute for the demonic power and aura he doesn't have.

[B214]

Originally Posted by XFire

.........boi.

"He's wearing the touki."

"He's wearing it around his body."

You

You literally just quoted exactly what I was talking about.

That's exactly how Issei uses aura. Hell, that's what Scale Mail basically is.

Edit: you, uh, you think he sealed his muscles for the match? Locked his biceps so they couldn't provide any power?

He sealed his touki, my dude. It's literally just life force used as power. He's using it as a substitute for the demonic power and aura he doesn't have.

You're the one who's missing the point. From your own statement here which i'm replying too.

Originally Posted by XFire

Sairong physical strength comes from Touki, which he explicitly uses in place of traditional methods of power. He uses it in essentially the same way Issei uses aura.

It's the opposite. Sairaorg's physical strength didn't come from the Touki, the Touki came from Sairaorg's constant training on his body.

Hell another of your point already missed. Did Sairaorg use his Touki in V9. He didn't, so why are you saying he got his physical strength came from the Touki.

Are you going to say Koneko's physical strength since V1 came from the Touki as well despite her not using Senjutsu till V5.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by B214

You're the one who's missing the point. From your own statement here which i'm replying too.

Oh, this is going to be fun...

Originally Posted by B214

It's the opposite. Sairaorg's physical strength didn't come from the Touki, the Touki came from Sairaorg's constant training on his body.

Sairongs training awakened his Touki. This Touki is an energy source fueled by life force that boosts physical power. His immense physical strength is a result of him training that Touki.

Originally Posted by B214

Hell another of your point already missed. Did Sairaorg use his Touki in V9. He didn't, so why are you saying he got his physical strength came from the Touki.

Are you going to say Koneko's physical strength since V1 came from the Touki as well despite her not using Senjutsu till V5.

Of course he did. It doesn't turn off and on, it's an expression of his life force used as power. He wasn't going all out, so it didn't go as far as later on, but he was still using it.

Again, are you under the impression he was sealing his muscles?

And Koneko's physical strength came from her Rook piece. She doesn't even use Touki to boost physical strength the same way Sairong does most of the time, she uses it to screw with their insides.

What exactly are you suggesting here? That Touki is just a fancy light show that has no actual beneficial effect to its user?

[Darksider555]

Touki simply enhaces their natural phyisical abilities. So Sairaorg goes full Hulk when he combines Touki with his natural abilities. Koneko's Rook power becomes even greater when she uses Touki compared to say Kuroka since Kuroka is a Wizard type.

[CCPDarkraiRules]

@XFire

"By the way, in the fight just now, he already cast seals to apply heavy loads on both his arms and legs."

From Volume 9 Life 1.

Then, on all four limbs of Sairaorg-san, a weird mark appeared.

[This is a restraint which puts a load on my body. -I will be removing this. I will answer you guys by fighting at my max power!]

PAA……….

When the shallow lights pour out from Sairaorg-san’s limbs, the mark vanishes.

From Volume 10 Life 4.

Would these be the seals you are talking about the ones that put a heavy load on his arms and legs. Sairaorg says nothing about using them to seal his Touki.

[Krudelu]

@Darksider555 Thanks for the quote

For now I don't feel like extrapolating at the moment so I'm not going to say anything on this matter at the moment. Just wanted to find the quote

[Parry999]

It's kind of sad Celts and Epyptian didn't get their own team.norse and greek got one plus a duel hybrid team.