High School DxD [LN/M] - Volume 25 Discussion / Poll

[Lucidrago]

Where are you guys getting this information from about how strong Ddraig and Albion were when they had their bodies or how strong Sirzechs is. Yes we know that Sirzechs is Top 10 and Ddraig and Albion were Top 10 when they still had their bodies.

Sirzechs is 2.5× stronger than Indra. Where are you getting this from?

India's power was said to rival the power of the current Yondai-Maou(Sirzechs, Ajuka, Serafall, Falbium) combined. Not including Sirzechs in his True Form and a serious Ajuka.

While Sirzechs was simply stated to have 10 times as much aura as the original Lucifer in his True Form. It was never stated that he was 10x more powerful than the original Lucifer.

That is not enough for you guys to start listing how powerful these guys are. Having power that rivals the current Yondai-Maou's combined doesn't equate to 4x Maou-class.

Having 10x as much aura as the original Lucifer doesn't mean Sirzechs is 10x Maou-class.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

Where are you guys getting this information from about how strong Ddraig and Albion were when they had their bodies or how strong Sirzechs is. Yes we know that Sirzechs is Top 10 and Ddraig and Albion were Top 10 when they still had their bodies.

Sirzechs is 2.5× stronger than Indra. Where are you getting this from?

India's power was said to rival the power of the current Yondai-Maou(Sirzechs, Ajuka, Serafall, Falbium) combined. Not including Sirzechs in his True Form and a serious Ajuka.

While Sirzechs was simply stated to have 10 times as much aura as the original Lucifer in his True Form. It was never stated that he was 10x more powerful than the original Lucifer.

That is not enough for you guys to start listing how powerful these guys are. Having power that rivals the current Yondai-Maou's combined doesn't equate to 4x Maou-class.

Having 10x as much aura as the original Lucifer doesn't mean Sirzechs is 10x Maou-class.

Indra is stated to be as powerful as the Yondai Maou, who are the basis for Maou class.

Sirzechs true form is ten times the power of the original Lucifer, who was noted before as being incredibly strong among the Maou.

And yes, his aura being ten times greater does in fact make his power ten times greater because that's what aura is. Comments on aura have always been in reference to the power level (for lack of a better term) of an individual.

10 is 2.5 times four.

This is pretty basic stuff, dude.

[DragonOsman]

Exactly. Aura tells about the person's power level. Power level only, though, not overall combat ability. We don't know what the original Lucifer could really do. But do keep in mind that it's precisely because of his abnormal aura and Demonic Power that Sirzechs is considered a Super Devil. Sirzechs isn't like Sairaorg who has barely any Demonic Power and has to resort to using other kinds of power to get by. His Demonic Power is already at the level of a Super Devil after all. For instance, Ise has both Demonic and Draconic Powers and his overall aura is a combination of those. For Sirzechs, his aura comes from his Demonic Power because that's all he has. It's all he'd ever need. So yes, again, him having aura 10x greater than the original Lucifer does in fact mean that he's 10x more stronger in terms of power level. I don't think the original Lucifer felt the need to get any other kind of aura aside from Demonic, either, after all.

Indra being said to rival base Sirzechs (who is Maou-class), non-serious Ajuka (Maou-class), Serafall (Maou-class) and Falbium (Maou-class) does actually mean he's 4x Maou-class. What was said was that it'd take these four just rival him. Not defeat, just rival. He's therefore 4x Maou-class.

@Lucidrago: Your not wanting to think of this as being the same as DBZ about power levels is blinding you from the actual truth. These characters do actually have a clear power level that people can sense from aura, and it's how Azazel was able to tell that in terms of power level, Sirzechs is ten times stronger than the original Lucifer. The difference between DxD and DBZ is just that in the former, we also need to consider abilities along with power level (how great/powerful the person's aura feels).

[XFire]

Obviously you need to consider hax, but my point was that it sounds like that's all Indra has, since he's so far below Sirzechs in raw power.

[DragonOsman]

Well, yeah, that's true. So probably just hax and maybe some sort of boost like with Vidar and his boots and armor. Ishibumi already said in the Volume 13 Afterword that the Hindu Gods all have cheat-like abilities.

[Lucidrago]

Your actual argument is flawed. You use True Form Sirzechs possessing 10x as much aura as the original Lucifer to say he's 10x Maou-class. To saying that Indra is 4x Maou-class because it's said his power rivals the Yondai-Maou's put together.

One is that just because Sirzechs has 10x more aura than Lucifer doesn't mean he has power that rivals the power of ten Maou combined. Let's take into account fighting ability and a bunch of other factors. It becomes impossible to judge that way.

Unless Ishibumi says it you can't say that Sirzechs is stronger than Indra.

[B214]

Ise has Ddraig's aura as early as V1 but does it mean he already has his level of strength then?

[DragonOsman]

Not this shit again. -Sigh-

Ise can raise his power in the Triaina and True Queen to equal Ddraig's in his prime. And he's trying to do just that.

Sirzechs having aura ten times greater than the original Lucifer's is meant precisely to say that his power level is ten times greater than the original Lucifer's. We aren't talking about overall fighting ability, just raw power. And the feeling of one's aura does tell you how powerful (raw power) that person is. That's what I'm trying to say here. If we go by this, it can be said that at least in terms of pure power alone, Sirzechs is 10x Maou-class.

Indra needing four Maou-class beings just to rival him is also talking about his raw power alone. Not overall fighting ability plus raw power, but just raw power alone. Just like with how it was said that Sirzechs in his true form has aura 10x greater than that of the original Lucifer which points to him having raw power 10x greater than that of the original Lucifer. Not overall fighting ability plus raw power, but just raw power.

Edit to add: Of course I know that to truly be able to say who's stronger than who, we'd have to compare overall fighting ability as well, but aside from equipment to boost power like what Vidar used, and hax powers, there's not much that can that can make up for a big enough difference in power. If anything. Even in DxD, whenever two people fight, abilities haven't been able to overcome a too-great gap in power (except maybe Boost and Divide, which I think are broken abilities, and also those dragons' finishing moves that can only not work on themselves, the complete Ophis and Great Red). Has Saji ever been able to defeat Ise? Do you really think Vidar without his boots and armor would be able to beat Ise? And just like that, a Maou-class being can't beat a Super Devil. Especially if the gap in power is big enough.

[Parry999]

^ Diehauser could probably find a strategy or two for beating a super devil to be honest.

Originally Posted by B214

Ise has Ddraig's aura as early as V1 but does it mean he already has his level of strength then?

No because Ddraig power was sealed so well he forgot it existed

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

Your actual argument is flawed. You use True Form Sirzechs possessing 10x as much aura as the original Lucifer to say he's 10x Maou-class. To saying that Indra is 4x Maou-class because it's said his power rivals the Yondai-Maou's put together.

You're being ridiculous. Take a look at the sentence you just wrote.

"Having ten times the aura of a Maou-class noted for being strong doesn't make him 10x Maou class." Those are literally the same thing. His power, measured by his aura, is ten times that of a Maou-class. What next, 1 + 1 doesn't equal 2?

And Indra is literally equal to four explicitly Maou class opponents. Ergo his strength is four times that of a Maou's. What part of this are you having trouble with?

Hell, if we want to try it your way, the gap actually widens since Sirzech's quote is direct reference to raw power while Indra's can be interpreted as referring to combat ability. Meaning his raw power would almost certainly be significantly below that point, as we know Hindu's have a specific focus on hax.

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

One is that just because Sirzechs has 10x more aura than Lucifer doesn't mean he has power that rivals the power of ten Maou combined. Let's take into account fighting ability and a bunch of other factors. It becomes impossible to judge that way.

Lucifer is a Maou. Having ten times his power is literally the same thing as having the power of ten Maou.

Aura literally is power. It's used to determine the raw power of a character. In 25 we literally see Issei judge Ddraig as slightly stronger than him because of a difference in their aura. Vali's wearing EJOD for the first time causes his aura to grow so strong it effects the surroundings. This is not a new concept.

And after a certain point the difference in strength erases all others, according to the "Ultimate technique type" Cao Cao.

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

Unless Ishibumi says it you can't say that Sirzechs is stronger than Indra.

This is a patently absurd statement. Of course we can. We can easily infer from what's been show how they would match up.

This is like saying we wouldn't know if Indra could beat Saji if they fought, or if Vali could defeat Ladon.

We have statements directly from the author on their strength. One is better than the other by a large degree. Trying to worm around it is just semantics.

[B214]

It's ten times aura. Also having ten times more power isn't the same as being ten times stronger. Ise and Vali each have more power than Sun Wukong in V19 but are they stronger than him then? That's the key point here. Yes Sirzechs may have more power than Indra but is he definitely stronger than Indra?

[AP24]

If we consider Lilith to be separate from Ophis, how strong would she be compared to others? The only thing I know about her strength is that she has 1/4 of Ophis' original strength.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by B214

It's ten times aura. Also having ten times more power isn't the same as being ten times stronger. Ise and Vali each have more power than Sun Wukong in V19 but are they stronger than him then? That's the key point here. Yes Sirzechs may have more power than Indra but is he definitely stronger than Indra?

He's at least two and a half times stronger in raw power.

And Sirzechs is a technique type.

The biggest weakness of his type, and he's more than 200% above the other under consideration.

So no, we aren't looking at all the factors here. For example the fact that as Sirzechs body is literally made of PoD, conventional attacks are fundamentally useless.

And your comparison is flawed because they are in fact definitively above him. He can't do jack against DxD. Again, as stated by Cao Cao himself, too large of a difference in power erases everything else.

And power is Sirzechs weakest point as a technique type.

So yeah, based on everything we know about the two of them right now, Sirzech stands head and shoulders above him. Assuming otherwise requires literal fanfic levels of implications and assumptions.

[B214]

@XFire. Have we been inform what Indra's ability and powers are? To make a proper comparison you need to know both side to an extend. Are we given enough info to correctly judge Indra's strength. Right now we know Sirzechs strength like 70%. But how much do we know of Indra. Probably only 10% or less.

[EternalDragonGod Ise]

But we can see though Aura how strong a Character is. I mean because of there Aura Balbirth and Verine was stated to be a Super Devils.

And also through his Aura Hades stated that Balbirth can fight a Dragon God (through this quite vague because there are other who can fight a Dragon God).

[Krudelu]

While you guys are at this topic, I remember the true form Sirzechs has 10x aura compared to original Lucifer from Azazel's statement from volume 12 but would anyone mind quoting the part when it was stated the Indra rivals 4 maou? I think I may have read it was stated somewhere but I can't seem to find it at the moment unless I'm mistaken.

[Darksider555]

Originally Posted by Krudelu

While you guys are at this topic, I remember the true form Sirzechs has 10x aura compared to original Lucifer from Azazel's statement from volume 12 but would anyone mind quoting the part when it was stated the Indra rivals 4 maou? I think I may have read it was stated somewhere but I can't seem to find it at the moment unless I'm mistaken.

So I am not mistaking it, that his “rampage” led to this incident. ……If Sakra also gets involved, then the Underworld will have an even bigger crisis on its hands. He is a Battle-God that is said to have the power where all the Yondai-Maou have to combine their powers and finally they would have the power which rivals him. When the First and Vali’s conversation finished, I interrupted their discussion.

Maybe if we compare the Old Lucifer & Old Maou who are weaker, then compared the current Maou who are stronger, maybe Indra is on par since he it would take all of the current Maou's to fight him.

[Lucidrago]

That doesn't include True Form Sirzechs or serious Ajuka.

@Xfire You use two different points and then try to quash them together and say It's the same thing and use it to say Sirzechs is stronger.

10x aura of the original Lucifer>Possessing power that rivals the current Yondai-Maou's power combined is the logic you're using.

Is it just comparing their auras or when it says Indra's power rivals all four of the current Yondai-Maou's put together. Is it just factoring Sirzechs' and the others' aura or their powers and abilities as well? For example, Sirzechs has the Power of Destruction and has mastered it to the fullest and Ajuka has a technique that can control all phenomenon. So that statement said about Indra doesn't necessarily equate to him having 4x the aura of a Maou-class.

The second point is that we don't even know Indra's power and abilities. As Ishibumi stated in the Volume 13 Afterword, the Hindu gods in the Top 10(Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma, and Sakra) have cheat-like abilities. So we can't just say that Sirzechs is stronger than Indra until we actually know what powers and abilities he possesses.

[AP24]

Here's how the strongest ones would rank:
1-3) Ophis (prime), Great Red, Trihexa
4) Shiva
5-6) Vishnu, Brahma
7-10) Sirzechs, Ajuka, Balberith, Verinne
11-13) Lilith, Indra, Crom
14-15) Ddraig, Albion
16-17) Issei (DxD), Vali (DxD)
18-27) Apophis, Azi Dahaka, Typhon, Fenrir (prime), God of Bible, Thor, Hades, Lugh, Aten

Sirzechs and Ajuka are considered as threats by Shiva if they are willing to fight him. Balberith and Verinne are super devils and are said to have the potential to challenge a dragon god.

Lilith is as strong as weakened Ophis, but weakened Ophis is not considered a threat to Shiva even though she is still twice as strong as one heavenly dragon. Crom is also said to be stronger than a heavenly dragon. Indra is not considered a threat by Shiva but he is possibly above the heavenly dragons since he trained Issei.

Issei and Vali in DxD forms are still not as strong as the heavenly dragons but they are stronger than the rest who are around this class.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by B214

@XFire. Have we been inform what Indra's ability and powers are? To make a proper comparison you need to know both side to an extend. Are we given enough info to correctly judge Indra's strength. Right now we know Sirzechs strength like 70%. But how much do we know of Indra. Probably only 10% or less.

We know that the four Yondai Maou together could "rival" him in combat.

And that Sirzechs is ten times more powerful than Lucifer, a devil noted for his extremely high level of power, despite being a technique type.

That alone is more than enough to draw a basic conclusion.

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

That doesn't include True Form Sirzechs or serious Ajuka.

@Xfire You use two different points and then try to quash them together and say It's the same thing and use it to say Sirzechs is stronger.

10x aura of the original Lucifer>Possessing power that rivals the current Yondai-Maou's power combined

One point says that character A (Indra) would be rivaled in combat by four Maou class opponents.

The second point says that character B is ten times stronger than another Maou class noted specifically for his extremely high power.

The most generous interpretation of that places a 250% power gap between the two and assumes the reason Indra can rival them isn't based off his has.

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

Is it just comparing their auras or when it says Indra's power rivals all four of the current Yondai-Maou's put together. Is it just factoring Sirzechs' and the others' aura or their powers and abilities as well? For example, Sirzechs has the Power of Destruction and has mastered it to the fullest and Ajuka has a technique that can control all phenomenon. So that statement said about Indra doesn't necessarily equate to him having 4x the aura of a Maou-class.

That would make the power gap even greater, since the evaluation would include his has abilities while Sirzechs is a comment on raw power.

Ajuka's technique you're referring to would be under his "serious" evaluation, however.

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

The second point is that we don't even know Indra's power and abilities. As Ishibumi stated in the Volume 13 Afterword, the Hindu gods in the Top 10(Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma, and Sakra) have cheat-like abilities. So we can't just say that Sirzechs is stronger than Indra until we actually know what powers and abilities he possesses.

Of course we can. His abilities can be handled by the four Yondai Maou together. Sirzechs is far and away more powerful than that.