High School DxD Light Novel - DX.4 (Volume 23.5)

[Lucidrago]

Well having a power-up on the way doesn't really automatically equate to becoming Super Devils. Because I really don't see this changing about how there are 6 Super Devils(in this world) in the future. And Ajuka, Gasper, and Millicas were already confirmed as three of those Super Devils. And I can safely say that Issei, Vali, and Sairaorg are the other three Super Devils in the future based on their current strength and them being Longinus possessors. So that's six. Now we can say that everything in Ex isn't going to be true and maybe that's right. But then again Gasper and Millicas are confirmed Super Devils in the future. Gasper just started really mastering his power after Volume 16 and Millicas is still a child. Now after all the growth Kiba had in this series in just one year, you're telling me those two are Super Devils and he isn't? Not everyone has the potential to be a Super Devil. Grayfia's insanely strong and so is Falbium and Serafall, but are they Super Devils? Is Diehauser a Super Devil? Super Devil is a super-rare category not just rewarded so lightly or so easily. It's not just being strong and getting power-ups and getting unique power-ups. But having strength beyond strength. To be an abnormalities among abnormalities. That's the way I see it and that's just my opinion. The number of devils who can reach Satan-class is incredibly few and Super Devil is beyond that. Like I said, strength beyond strength. That's my opinion. Don't think too hard about it. We can agree to disagree.

[B214]

I'm simply telling you and others not to dictate who can and who can't be Super Devils like it's already confirmed. We don't know that nor do we have the right to say that, Ishibumi does. The final decision goes to Ishibumi. For all we know Ishibumi may not have included Ise and Vali in the Super Devils list but place them under the Heavenly Dragons title. So there may be 3 other spots open for the Super Devil, is there not?

[Lucidrago]

Well Issei and Vali are still devils. They have been constantly referred to as the Two Heavenly Dragons all throughout the series because you know they are the possessors of Boosted Gear and Divine Dividing. Like for example you can say that Tannin's a Dragon King or former Dragon King all you want. Doesn't change the fact that he's a devil and an Ultimate-class devil. What if Sirzechs and Ajuka are as strong as Ddraig and Albion when they had their bodies and were in their primes? Would you call them Heavenly Dragons? No. They aren't dragons, they are devils. Issei and Vali are always referred to as the Two Heavenly Dragons: The Red Dragon Emperor(Sekiryuutei) and the White Dragon Emperor(Hakuryuukou) because they are the possessors of BG and DD.

Now I'm not trying to dictate anything. I'm merely using speculation and things that's been revealed in the series to say what things will happen and what things won't. For example, if you say that Rias or Kuroka won't become Issei's queen, you can call that a speculation because it's Ishibumi's story but we can use evidence and examples and things in the story to say it won't happen. Or Asia and Xenovia joining his peerage. Now you might say nothing's been confirmed and it's Ishibumi's story but it was very obvious that Asia and Xenovia were going to be in Issei's peerage. Matter of fact is none of us are Ishibumi. But based on the pattern of the story, things said, and hints, we can tell what's going to happen and not going to happen. If you get the hang of it, you can predict what's going to happen and not going to happen in DxD. So yeah the final decision goes to Ishibumi but that doesn't mean the things we say are going to happen are wrong. They're just merely proven hypothesis of what we believe are going to happen. I'm just using the fact that it's VERY unlikely that Kiba's Sacred Gears are going to evolve into a Longinus and even with his demonic swords I don't see him going beyond Satan-class. Are you going to make Asia a Super Devil because of her Balance Breaker. In my opinion, it's takes more than unique power-ups and five demonic swords to become a Super Devil. Just my opinion and yes it's up to Ishibumi in the end but that doesn't stop us from making speculations and guesses. I might be wrong and might have to eat my hat. I might be right. Well we won't know until the future.

[Hakai]

Originally Posted by B214

Actually there is something to help indicate, not sure how much it pertains to but it seems like Kiba just started to reach the potential of his Holy Demonic Sword, not to mention his Glory Drag Trooper is still developing. He still has many room for growth that you and some others seem to be downplaying a bit.

I do acknowledge that he has immense potential. He'll definitely become one of the strongest sword users if not the strongest one.

But I still don't see him being Super Devil level from what we know so far .

And yes in the end it's Ishibumi's decision not ours.
Even if someone says Raiser or Rias could become Super Devils I can only say I find that extremely unlikely, kind of same with Kiba right now.

[Brawlre]

Well B124 it isn’t far fetched in the least to say he could become a super Devil because it was stated that ise vali and Kiba were on the front lines fighting side by side with each other during the 30-40 year time skip

[Lucidrago]

Well you don't have to be a Super devil to fight on the frontlines. A Satan-class person could easily fight on the frontlines. Satan-class beings are incredibly strong as well and there are very few devils that can reach that level. Because there are very few Satan-class devils. How many devils as of now are Satan-class? With Kiba, you'd have to make his Sacred Gears evolve into Longinus or either have his demonic swords become god-slaying weapons. Easier said than done. I can say that someone's incredibly strong and has a lot of potential and are going to become very strong in the future. Doesn't mean they're going to become Super Devils by just a snap of the fingers. I can say everyone in the Rookie Four are going to become Super Devils because they're very strong and have a lot of potential. But we all know that's not going to happen. Again I might be wrong. I'm simply voicing my opinion on this matter. I don't doubt Kiba's strength and that he's going to become the Ultimate Knight. But I still don't see him becoming a Super Devil in a million years.

[Sparda4]

I've shared my thoughts on this before i'll do it again. B214 is right that Ishi has the final say that's solid. But we only know of 30 years from now. 6 Super Devils 30 years form now in story. That means someone else could become a Super Devil the next year. Why ? Because we don't know what happens 31 years later. So anyone with enough potential and sheer will can and will become a Super Devil. It's SUPER RAREbut it's possible.

[Lucidrago]

So the amount of growth they've been going through in just one year and now Kiba needs 30 years to become a Super Devil? And he's not some no-talent guy. Like I said just make everyone in the Rookie Four a Super Devil if you see that as possible. Just saying those in the category of Super Devil are far beyond exceptional. You need to surpass the monsters and be something that goes beyond monster. An abnormality among abnormalities. Strength beyond strength. You aren't going to have a lot of Super Devils of course and you can't just be handing it to anyone with potential and incredible strength. Like I said it's just my opinion. We can agree to disagree on this.

[Sparda4]

He might need that amount of time. His SG can't become a longinus but it can become crazy strong but not longinus level. The demon swords would need to be controled and you have no idea how long that takes. But yeah let's agree to disagree.

[DragonOsman]

In EX, when the Super Devils were mentioned, even Gasper mentioned them separately from the Two Heavenly Dragons. @Lucidrago, what do you think that means? Doesn't it seem like the Two Heavenly Dragons, Ise and Vali, aren't being counted among the Super Devils? Because it really seems to me like Gasper went out of his way to not categorize them as Super Devils even though Super Devil-level has no cap and even a Heavenly Dragon-level person who is a Devil can be considered a Super Devil.

If you think about it, it's only the people of the Underworld who are calling them Super Devil candidates. Everyone else is going to call them the Two Heavenly Dragons. Ise is both a Devil and a Dragon, and him being a Heavenly Dragon always comes first. People from the other factions view him as a Heavenly Dragon, so to them, he's not a Super Devil but a Heavenly Dragon. Same for Vali.

He's going to bring out and master the full power of Ddraig, and it's Triaina and True Queen that represent Ddraig's original power being brought out, so it's the True Queen that will allow him to bring out Ddraig's full power when completed. And when it's completed, he'll really have come into his own as a Heavenly Dragon by mastering Ddraig's power. After that, not many people will call him a Super Devil because he's one of the Two Heavenly Dragons before being a Super Devil. Which is why, in EX, he and Vali weren't counted among the 6 Super Devils. They were instead categorized separately from that, as the Two Heavenly Dragons.

And you can call what Ajuka said in Volume 23, Life.3 Part 3, as BS all you want, but it's still a fact and it does make sense from the LNs if you think about it. Consider it. Even in Volumes 20 and 21, DxD G was being bottlenecked. That's why it was Heavenly Dragon-level. And the reason it was being bottlenecked was because of Ophis having been split in two. It's not because of Ise's stamina. Or maybe it was retconned because at that time, even Ddraig was saying, "Partner, this is the price for the power. The power of Ophis, really is too . . . " (that's all Ise heard before he fainted). Or maybe all of that was already mainly because of the bottleneck. Could be either possibility. Either way, the DxD G we saw in Volumes 20 and 21 wasn't complete. When complete, it'll be way beyond Heavenly Dragon-level. But we might not see it unless there's an Epilogue with a time-skip of one year or more (because it took 21 Volumes for one year to pass in-universe, and Ajuka said it'll take Ise one more year to master Dragon Deification, which means there aren't enough Volumes with the series already being at 23 Volumes and the news that it won't go past 30 Volumes).

The power from Great Red's flesh, ExE, will be awakened in this series so we'll get to see it, but we won't see the completed form. Ajuka said its incomplete version will awaken in the tournament. It's probably the fully Dragonified form we saw in EX. Ise will apparently have to awaken that form to be able to unleash the true potential of his 8 Pawn Pieces. They can't mutate anymore because each Evil Piece can only mutate once, but I think what Ajuka meant was that Ise will need to awaken all of the powers from Great Red and Ophis to be able to bring out and use the full power of his Pawn Pieces that mutated.

Remember: each of those Mutation Pawns has a different value on it. We have 2 Pawns both worth 3 regular Pawns each, one that's 5 Pawns, and maybe 5 that are each worth 9 Pawns. Out of the 4 Pieces that mutated before Volume 12, the one that represents the True Queen is worth 9 Pawns because it's a Queen-level Mutation Pawn Piece. Ajuka did say that those 4 Pawns represent the Triaina and True Queen. The other 4 were mutated because of the Dragon Deification, so it's likely that they are also each worth 9 Pawns because DxD G mode is based off of the True Queen (he has to be in the True Queen form to be able to get into DxD G, and Ddraig also called it "Cardinal Crimson Promotion - Diabolos Dragon (DxD)" because another name for the Cardinal Crimson Queen is Cardinal Crimson Promotion (well, its main and proper name is Cardinal Crimson Full-Drive, but yeah)). And that also means that Ise is worth 56 regular Pawn Pieces. If the King in normal chess is worth all of the other Pieces' Pawn values combined (28 Pawns), then this means Ise is worth 2 Kings (56 / 28 = 2). But no, I won't say that his Pieces can mutate to King Pieces or that his situation is the same as if he were reincarnated using 2 King Pieces (because it's really not like that). It also doesn't tie in with what they said the value of the King is based on in the Gremory vs. Bael Youth Match. Anyone remember how they determined how many Pawns Sairaorg and Rias were worth in that match? They certainly didn't just take all of the Pieces' values and add them up. They also counted their own individual powers and achievements. Rias was worth the same as Ise in that match (8 Pawns - I guess either Ise's true value wasn't used or no one in the Underworld knew about 4 of Ise's Pawns having mutated yet, since if they knew, Ise would've been worth 24 Pawns (or maybe they wouldn't do that even if they knew about his true value since, by rolling a die, you can only get up to a value of 12 Pawn Pieces, which is less than 24 - and that would mean Ise wouldn't be able to come out at all in that match)).

Ise the way he is now might not be able to fully bring out and use the power of 56 Pawn Pieces. So maybe he needs to awaken ExE mode for that (which might be Ajuka meant when that Ise has to awaken both Great Red and Ophis powers to bring out the full potential of 8 Pawn Pieces). And then he'll awaken AxA which would be the true form of Ise who has the powers of Great Red and Ophis. But we'll probably need a sequel to see all of that because the main series doesn't seem like it has enough Volumes left to show it all.

Ise's strongest form will be AxA. A as a rank is considered higher, so that could be why Ise's forms are going downward from the letter A. Like rankings. ExE is supposed to be strengthen his base by releasing the power from Great Red, so it's last. It should also allow him to both bring out and master Ddraig's full power and also make him able to handle Ophis's power. And AxA will also be Ise's true form as a being that possesses both Great Red and Ophis's powers and it's also why it'll be his strongest form. Then there's BxB which Balance Breaker, CxC which Cardinal Crimson or in other words the True Queen, which will allow him to use Ddraig's original full power from when he was at peak power and had his flesh body (the Triaina and True Queen released Ddraig's original power that had been sealed by God and Ise has to complete the True Queen to master Ddraig's power), then DxD which is Diabolos Dragon or Dragon Deification, from Ophis's power and which has to be above even the completed True Queen in terms of power (which means it has to be above Heavenly Dragon-level), and ExE which is from Great Red's power (possibly the fully Dragonified form we saw in EX, which is 100 meters long and also makes him look like Great Red).

ExE doesn't make use the of the Boosted Gear. It's just Dragonification with the power from Great Red's flesh added to it. He likely wasn't using the Boosted Gear when he beat those ExE guys from the other world (those mechanical life-forms are also called ExE (Evie Etoude), which makes it confusing because the form Ise will get from Great Red's flesh is also ExE).

I'm guessing Lucidrago will have a problem with this as well. If so, then we can just agree to disagree. I'm just stating facts and stated and alluded to within the LNs. Ise getting that powerful is something that's going to happen and I, for one, don't think it's BS because there's proof and foreshadowing in the LNs for it.

[Tbolt]

Reading that wall of text made my eyes bleed. Break it up a little.

[DragonOsman]

I already broke it up into the parts I thought it needed to be broken into. Try giving your eyes small breaks in between paragraphs, maybe? I hear that when your eyes start to feel funny from staring at a computer screen for too long, look away from the screen a make a figure-eight in the air with your gaze. Do it a number of times. Then go back to reading.

But yeah, I'm sorry about the wall of text. I guess I just had a lot to say there? Could also be a consistency problem along with that, though.

[Lucidrago]

What I'm saying is that all of Issei's forms have had their drawbacks. Even if he has his body made out of GR's flesh and Ophis' power, he isn't them and is never going to become a Dragon God. Just seems that Ishibumi's rushing Issei's new power-up. Ever heard of a thing called power scaling? It's only been some months since Issei has achieved DxD and he can only maintain the nerfed version for a couple of minutes and now you want to give him another form. Then all of a sudden it's not Issei that's lacking but it's Ophis. BS. Something I'd expect from DBZ. Well Ishibumi's the author. I don't mind Issei getting power-ups. That's not the problem. It's about him getting power-ups way too soon. There's a huge gap between Satan-class and Heavenly Dragon-class. And now suddenly Issei can get a new form now after his current form devours his stamina? BS. That's not what I'd expect from Ishibumi. But I'll wait until Volume 23 is translated. And I'll wait and see what Ishibumi intends to do.

[DragonOsman]

Did you forget what Vali said in Volume 21? That Ise's growth has been too quick and erratic, with him having even reached a near God-like power even though it's only been one year since he became a Devil (these are Vali's own words, mind you - including the "near God-like power" part)? It's in the chapter "Y Ddraig Goch and Albion Gwiber" chapter, where it's revealed that Ophis took on the negative aftereffects of Dragon Deification. With Ise's growth rate being so fast, especially after he got his new body, it shouldn't surprising that he'd get power-ups so fast. Also, right now, he's only getting the incomplete ExE mode. Ajuka said it. ExE will reveal itself in the tournament, but it'll be the incomplete version. And It'll take another year for Ise to master Dragon Deification, so we might not actually get to see it yet. Like I said in my previous post, it took this series 21 Volume to reach one year in-universe. We're at Volume 23 now, and it's already been said that this series (the main series of DxD) won't go past 30 Volumes. There's a possibility that it'd be extended if Ishibumi feels like it's needed, but it's best for us to not hold our breaths on that. The completed DxD G mode, the completed ExE mode, and also AxA, all of that will have to wait for later. Maybe a sequel.

And there's no need to worry about the power-scaling. Ishibumi should know what he's doing. I think he can make Ise stronger without breaking the power-scaling. I mean, we've known since Volume 7 that Ise's trying to master Ddraig's power. And it has to happen in the Triaina and True Queen because those are the forms that release Ddraig's original power. The completed True Queen will allow him to bring out Ddraig's full power. Once he's done that, he'll be able to master Ddraig's power. None of the forms above the True Queen represent Ddraig's power (or they don't represent just his power alone). So Ddraig's power is only up to the True Queen mode. If he's to bring out Ddraig's full power and master, it has to be in the True Queen. The forms above that are all going to be above Heavenly Dragon-level, except ExE which might be at the same level going by what we saw in EX.

So after that it's Great Red and Ophis's powers. DxD is Ophis's power, ExE is Great Red's power, and AxA is both of those powers combined and is said to be the true form of Ise who has both Great Red and Ophis's powers.

Of course Ise won't become Great Red or Ophis. But they did give him some of their powers. What Ajuka said already tell you that he at least has the potential to reach Dragon God-level (though whether it happens or not (in some sequel) is up to Ishibumi).

And I think even the incomplete DxD G in Volumes 20 and 21 was above Ddraig's original power. It was Heavenly Dragon-level plus the Power of Infinity, after all. When Rizevim tried to cancel Ise's attack (∞ Blaster, IIRC) in that form but failed, and asked why it didn't work even though it's from a Sacred Gear, Ddraig replied that the power of the Sekiyuutei's ability is currently infinite. The Sekiryuutei's most ability is Boost, so what Ddraig said can be interpreted to mean that, at that point, Ise had effectively Boosted infinite times in an instant. The Sacred Gear Canceler couldn't keep up.

[n0m@n]

Hmm. So there was monologue of Ise in this volume when he was mentioning about God-classes. So the non-deity people who he mentioned as having a power of God-classes were Crom Cruach and Vali.

Anyhow, for Ise's current strength, people refers to him and Bina (Grayfia) as above Maou-class. Ise still has a incomplete DxD in this volume so I guess he's still not in a God-class zone yet because of it. In this series, when people refers to Maou-class powers they are using the original(previous) generations of Maou and the current 4 Maous are all above that power-level so its not surprising Grayfia is above Maou-class too (since it was mentioned she was like Serafall's rival where they once fought each other for Leviathan's position).

Though since next volume is supposed to be the volume which will end the preliminaries of World RG tournament. When will Diehasuer make his appearance then? Or will he get a VIP pass to the Top-16 without doing the preliminaries due to his status as a Champion of RG? I really dont want Ishibumi to simply use him as person Ise has to battle in DX and rather have him fight in the main tournament for the main volume.

And I also don't want to see Ise's rival, Vali, losing to Rias's Team when Ise vs Vali has been awaited for so long lol.

[Bennia Lover]

Neato info. So Vali and Crom Crauch are low god class and Issei is now around Serafall, Falbium, and Ajuka and Sirzechs in their base forms level, also Grayfia and Diehauser too

[Hakai]

Sigh... Ishibumi is inconsistent as hell with all these Maou-class, God-class, Dragon king-class etc.

Diehauser, Bedeze were said to be equal to current Maous yet they are called Maou-class anyway, but now Grayfia is suddenly above Maou-class .

Ah, screw power levels .

[B214]

Well Ishibumi probably thinks he can just sum all under Maou-class just like how he sums Indra and Shiva as God-class with other Gods like Loki, Zeus and Odin.

[Hakai]

Didn't Shiva also call Ophis and GR God-class Dragons in V22?

Yeah classes officially mean shit

[B214]

That's why i always say God-class = Maou-class. It means nothing in the end. XD