Macross Delta - Episode 26 [END] Discussion / Poll

[charles883]

I says NUNS civil war as many non human NUNS member anger that the Earth wiling to do atrocities to other NUNS member out of greed and arrogance and casually violate their own constitution and law for their own selfish benefit and cover it up

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Thing is Windermere is no position to have another civil war, and with what they've done even if Chaos does let the other planets know that the the whole bombing was true, it still won't help their case because Windermere still attacked neutral planets with the intention of conquering them via taking away their free will. Even if they do acknowledge that NUNS did was wrong, they'll still be expecting Windermere to pay for their actions against the galaxy so Windermere won't be getting anything from anyone beyond form of punishment.

I don't know; it could raise eyebrows in NUNS because their reputation is everything for their organization and everyone discovering they're not "all good" (meaning bad apples in their organization do exist) could potentially bring issues in future negotiations or with their current civilizations. In other words, if Windermere held onto or broadcasted the real truth about the bombing 7 years ago, it could very well be blackmail on NUNS.

[charles883]

I think Chaos should broadcast it as they have hard evidence on NUNS wrong doing

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

I don't know; it could raise eyebrows in NUNS because their reputation is everything for their organization and everyone discovering they're not "all good" (meaning bad apples in their organization do exist) could potentially bring issues in future negotiations or with their current civilizations. In other words, if Windermere held onto or broadcasted the real truth about the bombing 7 years ago, it could very well be blackmail on NUNS.

Windermere's words are worth nothing. Windermere will be viewed as people trying to justify their invasions of innocent planets by deflecting blame, and that view would be 100% true. Windermere can't blackmail NUNs without making themselves look bad.

I think Chaos should broadcast it as they have hard evidence on NUNS wrong doing

And everyone in the universe saw Windermere's wrongdoing by declaring war and mind control multiple planets.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by charles883

I says NUNS civil war as many non human NUNS member anger that the Earth wiling to do atrocities to other NUNS member out of greed and arrogance and casually violate their own constitution and law for their own selfish benefit and cover it up

Thing is though other planets haven't had that experience with NUNS, but what did have was the experience of Windermere attempting to take over their minds and will. Considering it just makes NUNS bombing Ragna look justified since they're actively trying to prevent Windermere from taking over the Galaxy. And if you were another country who would you be more willing to trust the people who tried to take away your free will and subjugate you to their rule, or the ones who you don't have a negative experience with and whose actions may have just been due to military necessity?

If Windermere wanted people to be sympathetic to them they've messed up their chances of that greatly.

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

I don't know; it could raise eyebrows in NUNS because their reputation is everything for their organization and everyone discovering they're not "all good" (meaning bad apples in their organization do exist) could potentially bring issues in future negotiations or with their current civilizations. In other words, if Windermere held onto or broadcasted the real truth about the bombing 7 years ago, it could very well be blackmail on NUNS.

But in the context of the series where Windermere tried to take over the Galaxy due to their belief in their own superiority. And because of that NUNS can easily counter them and say "well we were forced to do that because we knew that you were going to use the ruins to take over other planets and wanted to prevent that." Thing is Windermere is right now in no position to be pointing fingers, it'd be like if NAZI Germany after WWII, pointed at the Allies and say "but they were mean to me", two wrongs don't make a right, and people only tend to care about what effects them, and the only thing that they were negatively effected by was Windermere.

Hell you could say that even Chaos is limited in how much they can back up Windermere because all NUNS needs to point out is that Windermere kidnapped Mikumo and forced her to sing so that they could take over the Galaxy.

Originally Posted by charles883

I think Chaos should broadcast it as they have hard evidence on NUNS wrong doing

It wouldn't do anything because people both saw and experienced Windermere attempting to take over their minds.

[charles883]

Well Ragna is about to become second planet NUNS wronged if wouldn't for Heinz stop them. And remenber those corrupt NUNS plan to cover up that they plan to destroy entire planet using once again Illegal weapon thus once again violate their own constitution and once again plan to cover it up as 'accident' to save their corrupt ass self on their wrong doing

wisteria223, the way you says that US should nuke entire middle east region just to kill all terrorist as like how NUNS(US) should destroy Ragna and Winderemere 7 years ago(Middle east)

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Windermere's words are worth nothing. Windermere will be viewed as people trying to justify their invasions of innocent planets by deflecting blame, and that view would be 100% true. Windermere can't blackmail NUNs without making themselves look bad.

Did you miss how Chaos could give Windermere this info? Did you forget how Hayate is indirectly involved in this? Or did you also dismiss how he could ask for NUNS to do it out of respect for his father who sacrificed himself for their independence in the first place?

Seriously, it's blackmail against NUNS; because regardless if it's Chaos or Windermere who broadcasts it (of which we're talking the voice recording, not word of mouth here), it's going to hurt NUNS big time.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Thing is though other planets haven't had that experience with NUNS, but what did have was the experience of Windermere attempting to take over their minds and will. Considering it just makes NUNS bombing Ragna look justified since they're actively trying to prevent Windermere from taking over the Galaxy. And if you were another country who would you be more willing to trust the people who tried to take away your free will and subjugate you to their rule, or the ones who you don't have a negative experience with and whose actions may have just been due to military necessity?

If Windermere wanted people to be sympathetic to them they've messed up their chances of that greatly.

It's more about proving their reason for liberation from NUNS is right and not about gaining sympathy from other species. It'd be proving all their talk of NUNS is correct for other species and ultimately place NUNS in a bad situation. After all, other civilizations could use it as an excuse to grow concerned for their own species, economy, and planet.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Earth wasn't even sending its own forces in Macross Delta. It was local NUNS aka local militia.

They have more important stuff to think of than the local cluster.

UN Spacy already had its little civil war in Macross VF-X2 between the pro-centralized government faction Lactence and the pro-decentralization faction Vindirance. Vindirance won.

Some planets like Kesshobu in Macross the Ride has a civil war between pro-Lactence UN Spacy and NUNS.

Planets having insurgencies and civil wars is not uncommon on the Macross setting as seen in the games and Macross Plus, Isamu's dossier.

Know what that is the reason decentralization happened. Earth can't control everything from afar so they decentralized giving sovereignty to fleets and colonies.

Zola though associated with the NUNG is still an autonomous planet with its own militia. No UN Spacy or NUNS. By Frontier era they have contracted SMS to boost their planetary defense.

Voldor fully became a member without colonists. Their NUNS are Voldorians.

Ragnan went with a joint government with Terran and Zentradi colonists.

Windermere was still a sovereign state with a mutual defense treaty with NUNS. They even had their own military. Their beef was they can't sell Fold Quartz in the wake of the Vajra conflict. New treaty made restrictions on harvesting, selling and distribution of Fold Quartz as they can be used on Dimension Eaters. So Gramia called back the Aerial Knights on missions reinforcing planets threatened by Lost Zentradi to declare war on the NUN as negotiations broke down.

Local NUNS reacted that Gramia can't be this crazy unless he was about to use a Protoculture weapon they had no inkling how dangerous it is. For all they knew it was another Bird Human or Protodevlin.

The NUNS don't start war out of greed that's Windermere with its pride and dreams of empire. They start it out of fear.

Guess what they were right about Gramia.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Did you miss how Chaos could give Windermere this info? Did you forget how Hayate is indirectly involved in this? Or did you also dismiss how he could ask for NUNS to do it out of respect for his father who sacrificed himself for their independence in the first place?[/I]

Do you think his far would support Windermere mind controlling 4 innocent planets as well as declaring the intention to conquer the rest of the known universe?

His father wanted Windermere Independence. He got his wish. Are you going to say he wanted Windermere to rule the galaxy now?

[charles883]

Do you even saw manga that how NUNS trample local Windermere? By the way that Roid plan not Windermere as whole

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Do you think his far would support Windermere mind controlling 4 innocent planets as well as declaring the intention to conquer the rest of the known universe?

His father wanted Windermere Independence. He got his wish. Are you going to say he wanted Windermere to rule the galaxy now?

His father would not support total genocide of Windermere regardless of how Windermere acted. He'd not hold its whole race responsible for its military and royalty's actions. And Hayate will more than likely do it for Freyja, in other words, protecting her homeland, which is something his father would support in his son.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by charles883

Well Ragna is about to become second planet NUNS wronged if wouldn't for Heinz stop them. And remenber those corrupt NUNS plan to cover up that they plan to destroy entire planet using once again Illegal weapon thus once again violate their own constitution and once again plan to cover it up as 'accident' to save their corrupt ass self on their wrong doing

wisteria223, the way you says that US should nuke entire middle east region just to kill all terrorist as like how NUNS(US) should destroy Ragna and Winderemere 7 years ago(Middle east)

Which only happened because of Windermere. Windermere attacked Ragna which is what made NUNS decide to go there to begin with. If Windermere hadn't attacked Ragna then NUNS and that's likely how both Ragna and the other planets will see it. "This only happened because of the Windermerans".

I like the fact that you try to brush aside the fact that Windermere's actions in your arguments both funny and sad.

I think that concept you don't get is that if you attack someone then they won't care about why you did it, to them it just sounds like an excuse. It just looks like you're attempting to pin the blame on for actions that you willingly took.

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Did you miss how Chaos could give Windermere this info? Did you forget how Hayate is indirectly involved in this? Or did you also dismiss how he could ask for NUNS to do it out of respect for his father who sacrificed himself for their independence in the first place?

Seriously, it's blackmail against NUNS; because regardless if it's Chaos or Windermere who broadcasts it (of which we're talking the voice recording, not word of mouth here), it's going to hurt NUNS big time.

Which won't work, because 1. Windermere unintentionally justified NUNS actions and 2. Chaos also suffered at their hands, even they can't argue for Windermere because Windermere did willingly attack other planets and it would only make Chaos look bad if NUNS revealed that they're sticking up for the group that attempted to subjugate the Galaxy.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

His father would not support total genocide of Windermere regardless of how Windermere acted. He'd not hold its whole race responsible for its military and royalty's actions. And Hayate will more than likely do it for Freyja, in other words, protecting her homeland, which is something his father would support in his son.

What is so special about Windermere that it has to be treated with kid gloves? Why is it that it needed protecting, but not the four planets it decided to invade and mind control?

Why are you trying to claim Windermere as a planet is superior and more worthy of protection than everywhere else?

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by charles883

Do you even saw manga that how NUNS trample local Windermere? By the way that Roid plan not Windermere as whole

What a training accident and one asshole? Or the mutual defense treaty where they complain they'd rather protect only Windermere than save other worlds? Gramia declared war in the manga as the NUN said no in them selling Fold Quartz. As seen in the NUNS base pictures NUNS soldiers were okay with the locals.

Windermereans have this inferiority complex with other races and they don't like being reminded of it.

As stated in the Newtype interviews they had an existential crisis over being the shortest lived. To them it was unfair as they were the strongest of the Miclone races and had Runes.

Thus Roid started spouting Windeermereans were the true heirs of the Protoculture as they can't accept other races were longer lived and ahead of them technologically.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

What is so special about Windermere that it has to be treated with kid gloves? Why is it that it needed protecting, but not the four planets it decided to invade and mind control?

Why are you trying to claim Windermere as a planet is superior and more worthy of protection than everywhere else?

Because Hayate downright claimed he'd protect Freyja's homeland in episode 25.

It's not me who's claiming it's necessary; it's something that if the situation arises, Hayate will do because he promised her in episode 25: "I'll protect you, your homeland, and Ragna too. May as well throw in the whole galaxy!"

[charles883]

Then why those NUNS soldier joined Windermere army instead like Hayate father? Also source income is their apple which pretty much wont give Windermere economically prosper and with high demand of fold quatz, They can prosper economically which NUNS denied them. Also NUNS has no right to restrict them selling fold quatz as like you says Windermere are independednt planet

It like US wont allow Middle east to sell Petroleum and remenber how British and US(mainly British) screw over Iran over the petroleum due to their greed.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by charles883

Then why those NUNS soldier joined Windermere army instead like Hayate father?

Cause NUNS soldiers is a Terran also not a merc. Windermerean government do not like outsiders in their affairs even mercenaries.

Ernest was Gramia's trainer and adviser but even his pride won't allow Ernest to fight at his side.

Hayate's father didn't join Windermere he was a spook that didn't want collateral damage hence bringing the bomb to an uninhabited area as a goal.

He was an intelligence operative investigating the possible threat of the ruins on various planets. He is also the guy who found out about the Protoculture battleship for NUNS.

Originally Posted by charles883

Also source income is their apple which pretty much wont give Windermere economically prosper and with high demand of fold quatz, They can prosper economically which NUNS denied them. Also NUNS has no right to restrict them selling fold quatz as like you says Windermere are independednt planet

It like US wont allow Middle east to sell Petroleum and remenber how British and US(mainly British) screw over Iran over the petroleum due to their greed.

From Macross Chronicle.
http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.or...ionWeapons.php

The Operation And Restrictions Of Dimension Weapons
Its thought that the first combat that used an especially large quantity of MDE Dimension Weapons was the large-scale battle of 2059 between the Macross Frontier Fleet and the Vajra (the Macross Galaxy Fleet). In this battle, the tremendous pressure of Dimension Weapons was displayed, as the VF squadrons of the New Unified Forces, who escorted the fleet, and the civilian military provider S.M.S. were equipped with MDE - in order to oppose the Vajra, who had acquired a resistance to reaction weapons -, and used them to crush the Vajra.
Due to their power, usage restrictions similar to those for reaction weapons were established for Dimension Weapons - especially DE and MDE -, by the New Unified Government. Also, severe restrictions were imposed on the harvesting, distribution, and possession of fold quartz, which was indispensable for the production of Dimension Weapons.

I present to you Gallia 4 which Grace destroyed with a Dimension Eater made possible by Fold Quartz.

YouTube

https://youtu.be/4gX7S8rUfnA

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

After getting the 411 from Macross Quarter the NUNG shat its pants on how destructive DE and MDE are.

Now do you understand why Fold Quartz isn't a oil analogue but weapons grade plutonium. You can't just flood the market lest it would end up in the hands of a rogue state or terrorists.

[wisteria233]

After what happened with Galaxy in Macross Frontier and Macross Zero there shouldn't be a question about why NUNS wouldn't want the open sale of fold quartz and why they would be so careful with Protoculture technology, especially when it's in the hands of people who have a superiority complex.

Hell part of the reason why they're so mad is that they not only realized that they weren't as great as they thought themselves to be, but they also saw their culture changing and they were too prideful to accept it. Hell bringing up Frejya just exemplifies the problem with Windermere. Freyja is different because she accept new perspectives and experiences and adds them to the knowledge that she has, she isn't ruled by false pride and delusions of superiority. She is windermearans should strive to be.

Hell even Hayate's promise to protect windermere itself was met with jeering and violence from Windermere. It wasn't there to make Windermere sympathetic, just the opposite, it was there to again show that Frejya and Hayate were both on a higher moral ground than Windermere to again exemplify that the problem was Windermere itself. Because it is Windermere that pays violence to pacifism. Remember Chaos has done nothing to Windermere beyond protect planets Windermere tried to conquer.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Because Hayate downright claimed he'd protect Freyja's homeland in episode 25.

It's not me who's claiming it's necessary; it's something that if the situation arises, Hayate will do because he promised her in episode 25: "I'll protect you, your homeland, and Ragna too. May as well throw in the whole galaxy!"

The problem is, Hayate is being once again a delusional idiot here. His resolve to not kill anybody? Pretty much forgotten in episode 25. His resolve not to protect Windermere? Errr, with what? He's an employee of Chaos. He has zero political power in that organization, which is still run by the mysterious Lady M. He may have a bit of sway of with Arad and Ernest, but they both still rely on getting paid by their employer and can't just run off and do stuff on their own volition. If they even feel like helping out the nations of racists and war criminals, y'know.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Do you think his far would support Windermere mind controlling 4 innocent planets as well as declaring the intention to conquer the rest of the known universe?

Who said that windermere would do so prior to the events of Delta? Thinking in your way is the same way as saying all who believe in Islam religion are Terrorists.

The ruins and even the mothership were not even a threat to that time and it took Epsilons equipment to shape it up again. NUN caused this problem because they lied about the bombing. Where were the talks here? Rather than searching for a diplomatic way, what has been done is to have a black ops and rather have a bomb dropped. Sorry, I don't see justification to drop a bomb on a target where civilians live and the threat is not even a threat. There is no proportionality here.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

And everyone in the universe saw Windermere's wrongdoing by declaring war and mind control multiple planets.

Everyone will see that windermere acted out of self protection. Although this will not free windermere from guilt, it puts NUN into a questionable light.