The Role of Music in Macross

[Triple_R]

[MOD EDIT]Continued from the episode 19 thread[/MOD EDIT]

It's been fascinating reading the ongoing debate over "the role of music in Macross" on this thread. Very good posts by all participants.

I don't have a particularly strong stance on this debate, but there are a few ideas I'd like to put out there.

It seems to me that music in Macross-verse really is very powerful and kinda magical (I like this about it, just to be clear). It also seems to me that it's one of the biggest factors in conflicts, and in how they get resolved. It's serious stuff, and so Berger's points are ones that probably should be raised.

Perhaps Macross-verse music can be compared to nuclear energy - Its potential for good is massive, but so is its destructive potential if misused. So it's not something to be approached with complete lightheartedness and cheer. It can be a great source of good, and a source of happiness, but its potential for harm cannot be ignored.

Here in Delta, music can heal var victims... but it can also cause var. Perhaps it can be said that Macross-verse music is like Star Wars' Force - there is a "dark side" to it (and thankfully a "light side" as well).

There's a key plot point that I can kinda see hanging just over the horizon, a few episodes away. That plot point is this: Freyja will have to make a choice. Will she continue to use her music to amplify the skill and ability of a soldier trying to shoot down enemies, and risking his own well-being in the process? Or will she choose not to do that, and to use music in a different way? (I'm not saying that Freyja choosing to amp up fighter-pilot Hayate would be a bad choice, necessarily, just that there is some potential for moral complexity here.)

I think that Freyja will sing again, but the precise way that comes about remains to be seen. This show does seem to be posing a real moral dilemma for Freyja, a genuine dark side to something she loves, and so she will have to address that one way or another.

And I think the choice Freyja makes here could impact multiple aspects of this show. For example, if Freyja decides to be a firm pacifist and not amp up fighter-pilot Hayate? Then that makes a HayaFrey romance ending less likely. On the flip-side, if Freya chooses to amp up Hayate, and he agrees to it (in spite of what it recently did to him), then it's very easy to see that tying into a HayaFrey romance ending.

It's possible the show will go more lighthearted, and Thess will be entirely vindicated. But there is some real darkness that can be found in the corners of this show. There's some seriously shady stuff going on in this Windermere/NUN conflict, some true ugliness on both sides. Hayate finding out about his father using a WMD on Windermere, Heinz being coldly manipulated by Roid and seemingly mind-raped by Mikumo, Arad keeping secrets from Kaname, Walkure being smoothly confronted by a truly sleazy arms merchant selling weapons to both sides of a conflict... our admirable and idealistic heroes are being challenged here.

[CriiGV]

I can see Freyja choosing to amp up Hayate and use her singing as a weapon... A weapon for good. Yes, Uta wa Heiki, but it doesn't have to be used for evil. The problem isn't singing, it's how you use it.

Iirc, Berger said that their resonance wasn't VAR, it was something else completely. Perhaps it's the evolution of fold waves, receptors and songs. Could be the first documented case of fold resonance/evolution between species where they can "connect" on an entirely new plane. (Lady M may know something since apparently she has Mirage keeping track on Hayate and Freyja in the novel) Seems to me like this resonance is a form of bonding/understanding between species that's evolved since the Minmay and Ranka/Sheryl days.

Songs are evolving as well as humans being born/acquiring fold receptors.

[Tak]

From humanity's perspective, music is a weapon. A friend's greatest ally and a foe's worst nightmare. Almost all aspects of music, much like the education systems on colonies in Macross, have a militaristic bent. Its a weapon for humanity to achieve their version of manifest destiny.

The characters themselves in these franchises can pretend to be pacifists all they want, but more than half a centuries later, the trend is still going strong.

- Tak

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Thess

I think you missed the point of the reason why I quoted it: Kawamori is contrasting the use of songs and the uses of weapons, not as "songs are weapons" but "songs are the anti weapons" of sorts. He doesn't even acknowledge weaponization. He says they can be used with bad effects like Sharon Apple (Leon/Galaxy controlling the Vajra and now Var Wind Song are just knock offs of that), but he didn't even label that as being weapon like. I wrongly also said weaponization when it doesn't even register in his answer. He clearly makes songs the opposite to weapons. That wouldn't be my personal logic, but that's apparently his.

Well, Kawamori has been wrong on his own work already, to be honest. Sometimes a work gets away from the creator and what comes out is different from what the original intention was. If Kawamori wants music as the opposite of weapons, he has a very curious way of showing that.

Originally Posted by Thess

Which is to bring forth character development and get countered in the end. you do realize this, right? You know Freyja isn't going to say "yeah, singing is weapon, so gori gori!" There's a question mark Mikumo raised in early episodes, why do people sing for, what are songs for, what is music for. Sorry but I find it laughable that anyone would believe that Berger's theory would be the 'resolution'. It's obviously presented to be argued against, you know. Yes, he raises a couple of sound points but also he's full of holes. If he didn't raise a couple of apparent good points, we wouldn't have existential angst until they are solved.

Sure, there is a high probability that some of Bergers points will be repudiated. But (as I already said in my last response, so why are we repeating this exact sequence?) there is a validity to a good part of his summary of the situation. Music has been used as a weapon and, as used as a weapon, has saved hundreds of thousands of lives. That is a fact. No "Kawamori didn't want this!" is going to change that.

Originally Posted by Thess

Now, I do understand that music is used as a weapon sometimes, but Kawamori expressively used music as the opposite of weapons, in his speech. So I think that he'll just deny they can be used as weapons at all, but they can have negative consequences like Heinz' wind song. Something like that. I would have actually made a better reasoning of "music could be used as a weapon." But I'm unsure after Kawamori's statement just as he promoting Delta so... :/

As I said above, sometimes Kawamori does say one thing and then do another. You should check out Joss Whedon or Michael Brian Bendis for "writers who lie to their audience". ^^

Originally Posted by Thess

However, that music was created as a weapon and all that conjure that ippus was saying as if that guy spoke the gospel is naively foolish. It's like buying Roid's "Windermere as master race" speech because it has just about the same reaching and circumstantional evidence, interpretation made by people who have an agenda (Beger sells weapons, duh!). I do agree with most of your points, but I'm not sure that Kawamori wanted to present them that way. So he'll just use Walkure as his mouthpiece about what songs are for. It's not necessarily that I don't understand or agree your point, but I don't believe that Kawamori will acknowledge them. If he does, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

Alright, I can live with that. But you are parsing ippus words in a very negative way. She (just like I) is talking about the actual depiction of how music has been used throughout the Macross franchise, not how Kawamori wants to have it seen.

Originally Posted by Thess

Spoiler for Frontier:

For example, I admire Sheryl for singing post episode 20 and disliked Ranka's decision, but Kawamori presented those who stayed with Leon in the wrong (with understandable POV) and Ranka's decision as right in everything except not informing her brother about her little tour with Brera. It's not really plot convenience, it's about the story and his beliefs.

Spoiler for Frontier:

Yeah, and I don't give a shit if Kawamori wants to shower rose petals on Ranka, Brera and Grace in his interviews and private thoughts... I care what he actually does depict on the screen. And that was, as far as I am concerned, what I said in my last post. If I were to read an interview with him where he says the exact contrary about what he showed on Frontier or Delta, I am not going to suddenly be all like "Sure, I won't believe my lying eyes!" and totally change my view on something which clearly happened on screen.

[ReddyRedWolf]

We have to note the Protoculture aren't exactly heterogeneous in belief else they wouldn't get into war since leaving their home planet.

Berger isn't privy to the more classified NUNS records but it point that way song was used as an indirect weapon. Though not for mind control. The Evil Series, Bird Human and Fold Evil are all powered fold wave songs. The Protodevlin learned how to produce their own Spiritia through song that they do not have weaknesses anymore. Sara reactivated and regenerated the Bird Human with her song. Col. Todo kidnapped various singers throughout history for them to unwittingly activate the Fold Evil which had the power over spacetime.

On the other hand it looks like the mental effects of positive songs are meant not to mind control but break it. Zentradi break out of their military programming. Myung counteracted Sharon's hypnosis on Isamu. Basara's song freed mind controlled soldiers.

Windermere is able to do mind control with the Wind Singer because of Fold Bacteria. Something the Protoculture could not have predicted. Sharon was an AI that can manipulate mental states as she was designed for it.

[Thess]

Going to repost this and call it a day:

In the TV series the resolution was brought about by Minmay’s song but in the movie, due to the 2 hour restriction, I had to simplify it down. Although the song did bring about an alliance, the last boss had to be beaten by weapons in the end. That ending I regret.

That regret resulted in a new Macross series ten years later known as Macross 7, where the protagonist was Nekki Basara, who is constantly singing and never uses weapons. So in terms of the positive side of a song can bring, this is something that Nekki Basara did. As for the negative side, I thought about things like mind control and that’s how the AI Sharon Apple for Macross Plus came about.

Shouji Kawamori.

He also says something familiar in the interview about Delta's big three elements (music, mecha and triangle). I'll hunt it down later. You can argue what do you think music is like from an interpretation POV, but I think that sums the author's intent perfectly: Music in opposition to weapons.

[magnuskn]

The authors intent doesn't mean anything when he seemingly has been incapable of bringing it across for the last Macross series before Delta. If Kawamori wants music definitely not depicted as a weapon, he has a very clumsy way of expressing that point, since the plots of Frontier did not exactly depict that. Delta could go either way, but I think you are way, way to cocksure of yourself that we are all deluded and you are the one with all the correct answers.

[BetoJR]

I believe there are ways of expressing one's opinions without coming of as arrogant or something similar, but... These kind of discussions seem to bring out the worst in us all.

[Tak]

The role of music in Macross! Nuff said.



- Tak

[magnuskn]

Basara Beam Cannon?

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Basara Beam Cannon?

Is there anything it can't do?

YouTube

https://youtu.be/eAc9X-F_j9U

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[HirouKeimou]

Alright, I'll drop in my opinion.

Singing in Macross is for "connecting" races together but is perceived by enemies in the franchise as a "weapon" because it's so powerful and effective on "manipulating minds" in their point of view (like the Zentradi in SDF-1).

In Zero, it's used as a "weapon" by accident (because Sara is manipulated by the Protoculture).

In 7, it's all about communicating, because Basara only wishes for others to listen to his song and understand his emotions in the song (hence his catchphrase).

Spoiler for Frontier spoilers:

And in Frontier, it's an all-powerful "weapon" against the Vajra because it's the only 100% effective tool Frontier has. But that's not its purpose, and Ranka conveys so in the final episode by saying "the Vajra communicate via song." The Vajra misunderstood humans because they do not always "sing" like the Vajra do, they communicate via words and actions (which could lead to doubt and misunderstandings), and so they initially believed humans were harming Ranka who is like one of them (and this holds up so in the movies). It's the villains in Frontier who decide it's a useful "weapon" and choose to force Ranka into singing for a misguided cause. Of course, she begins realizing it's not a solution because she is even affected by the Vajra dying (as shown in episode 20).

Now, Ranka leaving Frontier could be perceived as a misguided choice until you remember Mishima and Grace are behind all of this (and it is Grace's plan, too). Abandoning Frontier is a wise choice because if Ranka continued to sing for Frontier like Mishima planned, Frontier would be annihilated because her songs could no longer "neutralize" the Vajra. And remember in episode 21, she quite literally asks Alto: "this little one has done nothing wrong; it only hatched from its egg today. Even so, you'll still kill it?" This is like saying "do you blame a child for the wrongs of its parents?" Ranka is misguided, yes; but not wrong on what she perceived of this situation: her music is a "weapon" in the wrong hands (as Grace ultimately proves true in the final 2 episodes) but it's not it's only use (as Alto expresses to her by asking her to sing her "true song").

And, also, Sheryl could go for either because she allows Mishima in later episodes to misguide her into using her singing as a weapon, too, once Ranka is gone.

In Delta,... my only real opinion of why it's expressed as a "weapon" in Delta is to show it's positive and negative effects on a large scale and eventually show it's true form by the end. Right now, it's done both with Hayate and Freyja resonating; in episode 13, he literally "flew" off the ground, and in episode 18, he crashed. So it's likely we'll find the "true meaning" for singing in Macross by the end of Delta.