Madoka Magica - Movie 3 Spoilers and Speculations

[woxx]

Originally Posted by GDB

What? It being completely original makes it EASIER to write something new. And why would they cheap out on the budget or toss Urobuchi aside? These assumptions make no sense.



Fairly sure he said the same thing about the TV ending. And then we got Rebellion. If they do another sequel, he'll likely say the same thing about that ending.

Originally Posted by GDB

Well, not sure where he said Rebellion is the ultimate ending either. Instead, I found this interview where he flat out says:



Also found this interview where he said that a sequel was never originally planned. And never planning a sequel is the same as saying the original, pre-movie ending was the real ending as far as he considered it. Until it wasn't.

The biggest difference is that he statred to write the movie right after TV series and it was announced almost instantly. Today(1.5 years after Rebellion) nothing is announced and he probably works with some different project.
And in some other interview he said how difficult it was to write the Rebellion's plot. Writing a good sequel again would be just impossible.

Originally Posted by GDB

They also didn't say they were making movies. Until they did.

Movie trilogy was announced in 2011 right after series BD release
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...-to-be-trilogy

Originally Posted by GDB

Well, not sure where he said Rebellion is the ultimate ending either. Instead, I found this interview where he flat out says:



Also found this interview where he said that a sequel was never originally planned. And never planning a sequel is the same as saying the original, pre-movie ending was the real ending as far as he considered it. Until it wasn't.

From some next interview:
Finally, what are your thoughts on this conclusion?
Urobuchi: Personally, I feel like I wrote all there is to Madoka in the TV series, and now I’ve written all there is to Homura in this movie. I feel like I’ve had both of them graduate. Anyway, I think that a school where a god and a devil are in the same class is pretty funny. If people use that to make new stories, I’ll be happy. I want this to be the kind of story where everyone will want to imagine their own sequel.

Tv series is end Madoka's story, Rebellion - Homura's. I don't think he's going to write Sayaka's story.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by woxx

And in some other interview he said how difficult it was to write the Rebellion's plot. Writing a good sequel again would be just impossible.

Difficult does not mean impossible. What's with the unnecessary hyperbole?

Movie trilogy was announced in 2011 right after series BD release
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...-to-be-trilogy

So what you're saying is... they didn't announce it until they announced it, and thus agreeing with what I said. Got it.

[zend0g]

Originally Posted by woxx

Writing a good sequel again would be just impossible.

At the end of Rebellion, I don't see how Homura and Madoka could be re-united without blowing some major holes in any suspension of disbelief in the Madoka universe. It does stinks that Madoka has unintentionally stuck Homura in an unwinnable position. Writing that sequel and keeping fans happy won't be fun.

Originally Posted by woxx

Tv series is end Madoka's story, Rebellion - Homura's. I don't think he's going to write Sayaka's story.

What could he (or anyone for that matter) write about Sayaka that hasn't been said already. Really the TV series is Madoka's and Sayaka's story; it's just a not very happy story for Sayaka. Is Sayaka really Sayaka after she becomes Madokami's avatar and has her screwed with Homura? And could you tell her story with those two giants (Madoka and Homura) sitting in the background? I expect too many fans would complain about them not getting enough screen time.

[AuraTwilight]

At the end of Rebellion, I don't see how Homura and Madoka could be re-united without blowing some major holes in any suspension of disbelief in the Madoka universe. It does stinks that Madoka has unintentionally stuck Homura in an unwinnable position. Writing that sequel and keeping fans happy won't be fun.

You know, in a functional relationship, both members compromise.

Which Homura and Madoka have never done yet. So...there's your answer.

What could he (or anyone for that matter) write about Sayaka that hasn't been said already. Really the TV series is Madoka's and Sayaka's story; it's just a not very happy story for Sayaka. Is Sayaka really Sayaka after she becomes Madokami's avatar and has her screwed with Homura? And could you tell her story with those two giants (Madoka and Homura) sitting in the background? I expect too many fans would complain about them not getting enough screen time.

Homura's set up to be antagonist and Madoka's reduced to a macguffin again. If anyone's gonna stand up and take the charge to fight Homura the Lucifer, it'd be Sayaka, who's been compared to the Archangel Michael already.

But yea, Sayaka's story arc was complete in the original anime, but that's part of the reason why Rebellion (while a good movie), was bad literature, in my opinion.

[zend0g]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

You know, in a functional relationship, both members compromise.

Which Homura and Madoka have never done yet. So...there's your answer.

If Madoka and Homura were normal human beings, that would be very true, but they are not. Madoka makes a wish that doesn't unfortunately allow for compromise And Homura refuses to accept Madoka's wishes or desires. Homura had the right idea - go back to being normal girls. The problem is that despite whatever power Homura gained, it was just not enough to truly change Madoka.

Madoka really screws up at the end of the TV series by letting Homura remember her. Had she not done that Rebellion would have never happened and Homura would have been just another normal girl as she would have never met Madoka to become a magical girl. It's possible that Homura would have become a magical girl for other reasons that would have disappeared eventually to be re-united with Madoka in the end. Even when she does remember Madoka, Homura still rejects Madoka-as-kami as she could at any time just blown all of magical power and been re-united with her. That was their best compromise moment given their circumstances and Homura rejects it. I don't think we are going to see any compromising happening between those two since they are now father apart than they have ever been.

That is one of the things that makes a Madoka Magica a good tragedy. Good characters with good intentions that come to bad ends.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Homura's set up to be antagonist and Madoka's reduced to a macguffin again. If anyone's gonna stand up and take the charge to fight Homura the Lucifer, it'd be Sayaka, who's been compared to the Archangel Michael already.

But yea, Sayaka's story arc was complete in the original anime, but that's part of the reason why Rebellion (while a good movie), was bad literature, in my opinion.

Madoka as long as she is a part of cosmic law will always be a macguffin. Writers sometimes write themselves into a corner and this is a good example of such a case. While I can understand the character, I don't like the Madoka-as-kami. Sorry. Witches were interesting; Wraiths are dull. Wraiths are literally cardboard cutouts. Madoka-as-kami needs to go or I feel most stories will end being pre-Madoka stories. Hmmm... Unless Kyubey puts an isolation field around an entire city or planet.

Homura isn't Lucifer. While she may have that inflated opinion of herself, she can't fill those shoes. She just your average demon thug. Kyubey is Lucifer. How often does Kyubey use force to make the girls do what he wants. Never. He talks them into doing everything he wants them to do even when they know they shouldn't trust him. That critter is smoooooth. When Sayaka confronts Homura, how does she convince Sayaka to help her or not to intervene? She doesn't, she just mind wipes her. Pffft. The best she can do is use plain brute force. Any subtlety that she was learning by example by competing against Kyubey pre-Rebellion, she lost.

[Szadek]

Originally Posted by woxx

And in some other interview he said how difficult it was to write the Rebellion's plot. Writing a good sequel again would be just impossible.

No, because Rebellion is a much better jumping of point for a sequel than the main series.

[woxx]

Originally Posted by GDB

Difficult does not mean impossible. What's with the unnecessary hyperbole?

Writing something good is almost impossible. I don't remember more than one good sequel for original show/film in whole industry.

Originally Posted by GDB

So what you're saying is... they didn't announce it until they announced it, and thus agreeing with what I said. Got it.

I mean time is passing. If they was going to make something again they would announce it already.

Originally Posted by zend0g

What could he (or anyone for that matter) write about Sayaka that hasn't been said already. Really the TV series is Madoka's and Sayaka's story; it's just a not very happy story for Sayaka. Is Sayaka really Sayaka after she becomes Madokami's avatar and has her screwed with Homura? And could you tell her story with those two giants (Madoka and Homura) sitting in the background? I expect too many fans would complain about them not getting enough screen time.

I'm telling that too, there is no reason to write more when two main characters are completely developed.

Originally Posted by Szadek

No, because Rebellion is a much better jumping of point for a sequel than the main series.

It really isn't. Original series left Homura in the middle of nowhere. Rebellion has very open ending, but it settles all things.

[zend0g]

Originally Posted by woxx

It really isn't. Original series left Homura in the middle of nowhere. Rebellion has very open ending, but it settles all things.

How does it settle anything? At the end of the TV series, Homura is alone in remembering Madoka but continuing to fight for her beliefs. Barring Rebellion, she would have continued to do that until she faded from the world and rejoined Madoka. Other magical girls do the same and they do through their lives never knowing anything different. That is about as a happy ending as you can get in Madokaverse.

Now, you have a demonic and severely mentally unstable Homura roaming around, Homura and Madoka may still come to blows, Madoka is in the world for Kyubey to interfere with, you have two Madoka avatars also roaming around, the Law of Cycles has been tampered with to some unknown degree and Kyubey probably knows now that the isolation field works and he can jump start creating witches again. What stinks most is how is do you fix any of this?* They are going to need another girl with enough karma and/or emotional attachment to Madoka, Homura (the tough part because she was such a loner) and possibly Sayaka (to keep Madoka from wanting to save her friend again) to make a sincere wish to fix it. I kind of doubt girls like that grow on trees.

Don't get me wrong; I liked Rebellion. It was a nice fix for an addict suffering from withdraw. But as a story it just took things from bad to worse. If you think that the idea of magical girls fighting witches with a double side-helping of tragedy is cool and want more, then Madoka-as-kami is a problem.

*A big question is, "How powerful is Homura now really?" Barring another almighty wish do we need another fluke of scenario with a breaking-soulgem-but-not-from-grief-that-used-to-be-inside-an-isolation-field-while-you-grasp-the-hands-of-a-god-that-used-to-be-your-best-friend-who-still-loves-you? This technically the weakest spot of Rebellion. How did Homura know going into this that any of this would turn out the way that it did? Was there any real evidence aside from her semi-fight with Sayaka that she was still resetting time? From her comments it kind of sounds like she has, but unlike the TV series, you don't see any real proof... Or maybe this is a good excuse to watch it again.

[woxx]

Originally Posted by zend0g

How does it settle anything? At the end of the TV series, Homura is alone in remembering Madoka but continuing to fight for her beliefs. Barring Rebellion, she would have continued to do that until she faded from the world and rejoined Madoka. Other magical girls do the same and they do through their lives never knowing anything different. That is about as a happy ending as you can get in Madokaverse.

Now, you have a demonic and severely mentally unstable Homura roaming around, Homura and Madoka may still come to blows, Madoka is in the world for Kyubey to interfere with, you have two Madoka avatars also roaming around, the Law of Cycles has been tampered with to some unknown degree and Kyubey probably knows now that the isolation field works and he can jump start creating witches again. What stinks most is how is do you fix any of this?* They are going to need another girl with enough karma and/or emotional attachment to Madoka, Homura (the tough part because she was such a loner) and possibly Sayaka (to keep Madoka from wanting to save her friend again) to make a sincere wish to fix it. I kind of doubt girls like that grow on trees.

Don't get me wrong; I liked Rebellion. It was a nice fix for an addict suffering from withdraw. But as a story it just took things from bad to worse. If you think that the idea of magical girls fighting witches with a double side-helping of tragedy is cool and want more, then Madoka-as-kami is a problem.

*A big question is, "How powerful is Homura now really?" Barring another almighty wish do we need another fluke of scenario with a breaking-soulgem-but-not-from-grief-that-used-to-be-inside-an-isolation-field-while-you-grasp-the-hands-of-a-god-that-used-to-be-your-best-friend-who-still-loves-you? This technically the weakest spot of Rebellion. How did Homura know going into this that any of this would turn out the way that it did? Was there any real evidence aside from her semi-fight with Sayaka that she was still resetting time? From her comments it kind of sounds like she has, but unlike the TV series, you don't see any real proof... Or maybe this is a good excuse to watch it again.

You missed a lot in the movie.
Incubators are under Homura's control now.
Homura's wish is still the same as it was in original series. In real world she got new powers and weapon(black bow), she doesn't have time shield and doesn't reset time, because it's useless after Madoka became concept. Sayaka was talking about previous world before Madoka's wish.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by zend0g

If Madoka and Homura were normal human beings, that would be very true, but they are not. Madoka makes a wish that doesn't unfortunately allow for compromise And Homura refuses to accept Madoka's wishes or desires. Homura had the right idea - go back to being normal girls. The problem is that despite whatever power Homura gained, it was just not enough to truly change Madoka.

Madoka really screws up at the end of the TV series by letting Homura remember her. Had she not done that Rebellion would have never happened and Homura would have been just another normal girl as she would have never met Madoka to become a magical girl. It's possible that Homura would have become a magical girl for other reasons that would have disappeared eventually to be re-united with Madoka in the end. Even when she does remember Madoka, Homura still rejects Madoka-as-kami as she could at any time just blown all of magical power and been re-united with her. That was their best compromise moment given their circumstances and Homura rejects it. I don't think we are going to see any compromising happening between those two since they are now father apart than they have ever been.

That is one of the things that makes a Madoka Magica a good tragedy. Good characters with good intentions that come to bad ends.

It's easier for the two of them to compromise, if anything, due to their being gods. Between the two fo them they can probably find a way to save everyone without sacrificing Madoka or anyone else, because #hope.

Madoka as long as she is a part of cosmic law will always be a macguffin. Writers sometimes write themselves into a corner and this is a good example of such a case. While I can understand the character, I don't like the Madoka-as-kami. Sorry. Witches were interesting; Wraiths are dull. Wraiths are literally cardboard cutouts. Madoka-as-kami needs to go or I feel most stories will end being pre-Madoka stories. Hmmm... Unless Kyubey puts an isolation field around an entire city or planet.

To be fair, we know absolutely nothing about Wraiths. It's too early to judge them, since the writers haven't utilized them properly.

Homura isn't Lucifer. While she may have that inflated opinion of herself, she can't fill those shoes. She just your average demon thug. Kyubey is Lucifer. How often does Kyubey use force to make the girls do what he wants. Never. He talks them into doing everything he wants them to do even when they know they shouldn't trust him. That critter is smoooooth. When Sayaka confronts Homura, how does she convince Sayaka to help her or not to intervene? She doesn't, she just mind wipes her. Pffft. The best she can do is use plain brute force. Any subtlety that she was learning by example by competing against Kyubey pre-Rebellion, she lost.

Kyubey's Mephistopheles, actually, so close but not quite. Homura is Lucifer because she's the first Magical Girl to reject God/Jesus/Madoka's salvation in the pride of thinking she knows better, and she was God's most beloved and most faithful beforehand.

She's Lucifer because in some tellings of the Fall, Lucifer's sin is that he loved God so much he refused to respect or bow to his creation or his lesser works (Man). This is the canonical truth of the Quran, where he is named Iblis, and is a Child of Fire instead ofa Child of Light (a djinn, as opposed to an angel).

[zend0g]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It's easier for the two of them to compromise, if anything, due to their being gods. Between the two fo them they can probably find a way to save everyone without sacrificing Madoka or anyone else, because #hope.

Homura is going to have to deal with loss at some point. I can sympathize with her. I had a best friend that lasted from kindergarten to high school before we broke up. He was closer to me than any of my siblings and was someone that I always wanted to be. However, he chose a path that I choose not to take. That loss hurt. It hurt a lot. However, I still care for him and I hope he still remembers me fondly. However, rewinding time and wiping his memory to be my best friend again would be the worst way I could ever betray him. I would declaring that everything that he loves outside of me is worth nothing and all of his choices are meaningless. How could I be his friend at that point? How could I look him in the eye? This is why Homura went from being my favorite character in the TV series to being my least favorite in Rebellion. What Homura does to Madoka is not love. (She uses aijou, correct?). If so, she doesn't know what that love is anymore. If she used some form of koi then her claim might make more sense and more twisted. (Okay, okay, I will admit ai/koi can blur a bit and I sometimes even wonder how Japanese even keep them straight.) Regardless, if the writing was good that would be a powerful story, but unfortunately it's just authorial fiat after fiat to get you there.

Sacrifice derives it meaning from to make sacred and is most often based on the hope that the universe isn't a meaningless place. This is exactly what Madoka does. She sacrifices herself to become divine for the hope of all magical girls. It is one of the most noble things that she could have ever done. (Even if it does kind of kill the potential for new stories.)

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

To be fair, we know absolutely nothing about Wraiths. It's too early to judge them, since the writers haven't utilized them properly.

I guess we will have to wait.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Kyubey's Mephistopheles, actually, so close but not quite. Homura is Lucifer because she's the first Magical Girl to reject God/Jesus/Madoka's salvation in the pride of thinking she knows better, and she was God's most beloved and most faithful beforehand.

She's Lucifer because in some tellings of the Fall, Lucifer's sin is that he loved God so much he refused to respect or bow to his creation or his lesser works (Man). This is the canonical truth of the Quran, where he is named Iblis, and is a Child of Fire instead ofa Child of Light (a djinn, as opposed to an angel).

I don't think we should worry about this too much as we are not going to get a good match between the Bible and MM. They are too different. Lucifer/Satan didn't reject God's salvation like Homura rejecting Madoka as they were angels already. Salvation does not apply to them. Lucifer/Satan didn't love God. His failing was that he loved himself too much. His sin was pride. He thought he was better than God. Homura actions doesn't suggest she is doing anything similar. She doesn't change the magical girl system or universe aside from trying to break the human aspect of Madoka from the Law of Cycles. It's a rather petty change.

[Akito Kinomoto]

I'm pretty sure changing out Madoka's world for a place that she's barely maintaining is as undermining as it gets. Not really gonna get into technicalities, but changing the world is something Homura did whether it was her main goal or a side-effect of wanting to keep Madoka for herself (the latter I believe her main reason for...growing wings).

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by zend0g

Homura is going to have to deal with loss at some point.

If all Homura cared about was the fact that she couldn't see Madoka anymore, she could have left Madoka take her soul gem away, and they would have been together again. But that's not Homura's main concern. She turned Madoka into a human because she believes that's what Madoka truly desires (and she's not wrong about that).

For the sake of the greater good, Madoka would throw away her heart's desires (being with her family as a normal human) and carry out her duty as the LoC. She said so herself at the end, right? But Homura would never allow Madoka to make that sacrifice. That's why she rebelled, that's why she became the "Devil" to Madoka's "God."

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

If all Homura cared about was the fact that she couldn't see Madoka anymore, she could have left Madoka take her soul gem away, and they would have been together again. But that's not Homura's main concern. She turned Madoka into a human because she believes that's what Madoka truly desires (and she's not wrong about that).

That's one theory. It's not the only one.

What about the idea that Homura ascended to the role of Akuma Homura in order to personally take care of the Incubators once and for all? In other words, Homura perceived the Incubators as a serious existential threat to Madokami, which also appeared to be a threat that Madokami was either unwilling or unable to tackle directly.

Only by becoming Akuma Homura could Homura deal with the Incubator threat, and protect Madoka.

Honestly, I think the Akuma Homura fans had a much better argument there than you do with the "Homura did it to satisfy Madoka's desires" argument. There's not the slightest evidence that Madokami was unhappy. And in fact there's ample visual evidence that Madokami was quite content and happy. Which is a big part of the reason why your argument about what Madoka truly desires is very disputable, and is not as concrete as you seem to think it is. In fact, I'm inclined to disagree with you (and Homura) on it.


I can respect a person who takes desperate measures in order to protect a loved one from what appears to be a very real threat (it would be quite reasonable for Homura to fear with Kyubey could do to Madokami given what Kyubey managed to pull off in this movie).

I have a harder time respecting a person who thinks s/he should be the final arbiter on what her best friend really wants in life.

[GDB]

The "evidence", if you want to call it that, was the flower bed scene where Madoka braids Homura's hair. If I recall, Homura starts questioning her in a way that indirectly questions the Madokami wish. Madoka says she loves her friends and family too much to leave them, so she'd be too much of a coward to ever make a wish like that.

And if Homura only wanted to deal with Kyubey, she had no need to rip Madoka's soul apart.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by GDB

The "evidence", if you want to call it that, was the flower bed scene where Madoka braids Homura's hair. If I recall, Homura starts questioning her in a way that indirectly questions the Madokami wish. Madoka says she loves her friends and family too much to leave them, so she'd be too much of a coward to ever make a wish like that.

Well, she was obviously wrong about being too cowardly. So this particular version of Madoka might not know herself as well as some other versions do.

Ultimately, I tend to agree with something that AuraTwilight wrote about this a long time ago. To paraphrase his argument, going by memory - Who's the better arbiter of what Madoka really wants: The version with all of her memories intact who gets to see all the timelines that Homura went through, or this memory-wiped version who is living in a very fake and seemingly harmless version of the Puella Magi world?

The first version strikes me as the one that should be considered more authoritative here on what Madoka truly wants. Throw in how content-happy Madokami typically appears, and I don't think this movie made a convincing case that Madokami desperately wanted/needed to be made a normal human again.

The movie did, however, make a decent case that Kyubey was a real threat to Madokami.

And if Homura only wanted to deal with Kyubey, she had no need to rip Madoka's soul apart.

Can Homura become Akuma Homura (and deal with Kyubey) if Homura just lets Madokami collect her soul? It seems unlikely to me that the answer is "yes".

[zend0g]

Okay, okay, I was going write a huge reply woxx, but what's the point. I had forgotten that Homura was now Bowmura and had probably lost her time powers. Being able to reset time would have excused some of the worst plot holes. Without that, the plot for Rebellion is a huge train wreck once you start looking at it closely. With all the mind wiping going on, how can we really say what truly motivates any character.

When I saw that earlier poster had commented that Rebellion was a terrible story, I thought that that was a little harsh. However, now I see their point. I was hoping that Rebellion would have been as rich as the TV series under further inspection, but all it was was gold leaf.

[zend0g]

Originally Posted by GDB

The "evidence", if you want to call it that, was the flower bed scene where Madoka braids Homura's hair. If I recall, Homura starts questioning her in a way that indirectly questions the Madokami wish. Madoka says she loves her friends and family too much to leave them, so she'd be too much of a coward to ever make a wish like that.

And if Homura only wanted to deal with Kyubey, she had no need to rip Madoka's soul apart.

But remember she has been mind wiped by Homura, so you can't trust her judgement. Homura is getting the answer she wants to justify her actions. Reconcile Madoka's position in Rebellion with her position in the TV series.

[zend0g]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

If all Homura cared about was the fact that she couldn't see Madoka anymore, she could have left Madoka take her soul gem away, and they would have been together again. But that's not Homura's main concern. She turned Madoka into a human because she believes that's what Madoka truly desires (and she's not wrong about that).

But Homura is wrong. Homura takes Madoka's request from one of the earlier timelines (where Madoka probably made a less than stellar wish) about keeping her from making a wish with Kubey. Homura uses that request to justify refusing any wish made by Madoka regardless of whether or not Madoka truly wants it. Homura doesn't care about whether Madoka wants to be a goddess or not. Her opinion doesn't matter, only Homura's matter.

[woxx]

Originally Posted by zend0g

I had forgotten that Homura was now Bowmura and had probably lost her time powers. Being able to reset time would have excused some of the worst plot holes.

Well, now I see you didn't watch Rebellion properly same as 12th episode of the series. Because whole critisism always reduced to "some plotholes" which no one from critics can explain. In fact you never cared and never even tried to understand the series and the movie.