(L) Arifureta Shokugyou de Sekai Saikyou [WN]

[Amuris]

it's difficult for me because I can't empathize with them. Not because they are attracted to a man, but because I don't really see what warrants the level of devotion they have for him. Without establishing that, I feel like I've missed out on their side. Like I said, nice guy's are a dime a dozen and people who seem mean but are nice when it counts aren't rare. So, why would a girl choose to fight over or form ranks for this one guy? It's a matter of story telling, there's a lot of story here not being told. I don't feel like the harems perspective is being respected. (da fuk did I just say...)

@borisdrakoni
Everything you listed sounds the same to me. They all revolve around the same trait. It doesn't even sound like she know's Hajime that well. Add to that the fact that telling us about what happened before the story started does nothing for empathy. I mean they have to make us like Hajime the same way Koari likes him in order to get why he so important to her.

This isn't something that is usually done well it stories. In fact, I don't recall a story that really does what I'm asking for. I would just like it more if I felt like their affection was truly warranted. As it stands, their reasons don't stand out. Normally, you would give up on someone if there was resistance and this is all that really caught your attention, wouldn't you? Well, I'm old. Too old to feel things like "it has to be this person, I don't care if they're with someone else or ignoring me!"

Let's try a different approach. What would make you fall in love with someone?

[borisdrakoni]

Originally Posted by Amuris

it's difficult for me because I can't empathize with them. Not because they are attracted to a man, but because I don't really see what warrants the level of devotion they have for him. Without establishing that, I feel like I've missed out on their side. Like I said, nice guy's are a dime a dozen and people who seem mean but are nice when it counts aren't rare. So, why would a girl choose to fight over or form ranks for this one guy? It's a matter of story telling, there's a lot of story here not being told. I don't feel like the harems perspective is being respected. (da fuk did I just say...)

@borisdrakoni
Everything you listed sounds the same to me. They all revolve around the same trait. It doesn't even sound like she know's Hajime that well. Add to that the fact that telling us about what happened before the story started does nothing for empathy. I mean they have to make us like Hajime the same way Koari likes him in order to get why he so important to her.

This isn't something that is usually done well it stories. In fact, I don't recall a story that really does what I'm asking for. I would just like it more if I felt like their affection was truly warranted. As it stands, their reasons don't stand out. Normally, you would give up on someone if there was resistance and this is all that really caught your attention, wouldn't you? Well, I'm old. Too old to feel things like "it has to be this person, I don't care if they're with someone else or ignoring me!"

Let's try a different approach. What would make you fall in love with someone?

Out of curiosity, from your perspective what exactly would constitute a valid reason for the girls to fall for Hajime? To me, I think that pretty much anything is fine as long as it holds significance to the character.

[Amuris]

Well, then I'll give my perspective. Bear with me a little.

I've spoken with a lot of older women. I've also seen relationships my family members had and their opinions. Then there is my own experiences. The only unusual part is the old women I guess. Anyway, there are a few things that I want to mention first. The perspective of older women would have, the girls behavior is...well...disgusting. Fighting over one guy, they look down on it/regret it once they learn better. They also don't believe the whole love is blind thing. They know what they want; it's clear and specific. To add my own perspective, I say it's wrong to say that love is illogical. Whether it is good and intelligent or bad, everyone subscribes to their own logic. That's the reason we can be together for more than ten seconds. We have consistency and we can figure what we like and hate. We can hold long term relationships because we can match and adjust ourselves with each others likes and dislikes. As for what I've seen in relationships for myself, my family, and others, there's a trend. My sister would get involved with someone just because they seemed nice or she wanted to get to know them. She consistently moves in and out of relationships/marriages and her children are from 3 different dads. My brother was friends with a girl, dated her, and has stayed married to her since. This is the pattern relationships seem to take.

Now, Koari's reasons aren't invalid. Yes, it's true that everyone's own feelings are valid. However, a good relationship doesn't form on these kinds of feelings. They often don't last and don't seem to be worth fighting for. More to the point, it doesn't do well to convince others that it's worthwhile if you explain it as your own personal feelings rather than telling them the reason you have those feelings. When I and other's rushed into relationships with that as a basis, we turned away if things got tough(or boring, for me and some others boredom was a bigger concern), realizing that we couldn't think of anything that made them really special to us. At least not something we didn't see in a bunch of others without their baggage. Going back to my brother, his wife isn't some girl he just approached. They were good friends and could hang out normally. This is something that's usually ignored in romance aimed at teens. That is, the importance of friendship between lovers. There will be a time when you have to be together and do something other than have sex or stare at each other longingly. It helps to have mutual hobbies so you can enjoy the time together once the passion has died down. Young girls don't seem to believe this but most of the old ones have learned this. Anyway, Hajime's general otaku hobbies were a big part of his life. His goal was for it to be more than a hobby. That's something a long-term lover will have to see eye-to-eye with him on. Koari trying to make the hobbies her own in order to pursue Hajime is insincere, it's a means to her end. I don't think she would be as thrilled if the passion died down. I've actually intentionally went out with girls whose interest didn't match mine to keep the relationship short. Well, you would say that I wasn't invested to begin with...well, the gist is that, though they may be infatuated or feel love for Hajime, I won't empathize with the kind of love they have. It suits them, in a way. It's a simple kind of love a teenage girl will feel, but that love rarely lasts and is full of problems. It's disappointing or pitiable, you might say. It reflects the bad side of their age. The stereotypical rampaging, unthinking teen. The feelings of such a person would never feel, "heavy" or significant to me. I, as my own personal opinion, wouldn't even call that love, since it doesn't last once the heart and chaos calms down.

well, there's more, but I've been going on to long. I can't remember it all at once. You'll have to excuse me while I collect my thoughts more.

[dragon1412]

Originally Posted by Amuris

Well, then I'll give my perspective. Bear with me a little.

I've spoken with a lot of older women. I've also seen relationships my family members had and their opinions. Then there is my own experiences. The only unusual part is the old women I guess. Anyway, there are a few things that I want to mention first. The perspective of older women would have, the girls behavior is...well...disgusting. Fighting over one guy, they look down on it/regret it once they learn better. They also don't believe the whole love is blind thing. They know what they want; it's clear and specific. To add my own perspective, I say it's wrong to say that love is illogical. Whether it is good and intelligent or bad, everyone subscribes to their own logic. That's the reason we can be together for more than ten seconds. We have consistency and we can figure what we like and hate. We can hold long term relationships because we can match and adjust ourselves with each others likes and dislikes. As for what I've seen in relationships for myself, my family, and others, there's a trend. My sister would get involved with someone just because they seemed nice or she wanted to get to know them. She consistently moves in and out of relationships/marriages and her children are from 3 different dads. My brother was friends with a girl, dated her, and has stayed married to her since. This is the pattern relationships seem to take.

Now, Koari's reasons aren't invalid. Yes, it's true that everyone's own feelings are valid. However, a good relationship doesn't form on these kinds of feelings. They often don't last and don't seem to be worth fighting for. More to the point, it doesn't do well to convince others that it's worthwhile if you explain it as your own personal feelings rather than telling them the reason you have those feelings. When I and other's rushed into relationships with that as a basis, we turned away if things got tough(or boring, for me and some others boredom was a bigger concern), realizing that we couldn't think of anything that made them really special to us. At least not something we didn't see in a bunch of others without their baggage. Going back to my brother, his wife isn't some girl he just approached. They were good friends and could hang out normally. This is something that's usually ignored in romance aimed at teens. That is, the importance of friendship between lovers. There will be a time when you have to be together and do something other than have sex or stare at each other longingly. It helps to have mutual hobbies so you can enjoy the time together once the passion has died down. Young girls don't seem to believe this but most of the old ones have learned this. Anyway, Hajime's general otaku hobbies were a big part of his life. His goal was for it to be more than a hobby. That's something a long-term lover will have to see eye-to-eye with him on. Koari trying to make the hobbies her own in order to pursue Hajime is insincere, it's a means to her end. I don't think she would be as thrilled if the passion died down. I've actually intentionally went out with girls whose interest didn't match mine to keep the relationship short. Well, you would say that I wasn't invested to begin with...well, the gist is that, though they may be infatuated or feel love for Hajime, I won't empathize with the kind of love they have. It suits them, in a way. It's a simple kind of love a teenage girl will feel, but that love rarely lasts and is full of problems. It's disappointing or pitiable, you might say. It reflects the bad side of their age. The stereotypical rampaging, unthinking teen. The feelings of such a person would never feel, "heavy" or significant to me. I, as my own personal opinion, wouldn't even call that love, since it doesn't last once the heart and chaos calms down.

well, there's more, but I've been going on to long. I can't remember it all at once. You'll have to excuse me while I collect my thoughts more.

ehmm, how do i say this, your opinion is correct, if you consider the modern situations and a very specific culture context. Things is, the culture context involved here is very different, in time where hunting and fighting were common back in the past, people are generally open to their feelings, and if you consider specific context like ancient European then that kind of love is actually rather common.

In your case, however, the idea of needing time to develop relationship and logical developments is correct since our era allowed it. Back in the day, just like in the story settings, there is no convenient items to keep people in touch like phones, so once you goes far from each others, that's it, no more contact until you meet agains. If you want to develop your relationship, your only choice is to stick with it. The time and situations didn't exactly allowed a leisure approach towards each others.

To put it more simple, a long-term lovers, in our modern day, can easily contact each others when they want, but that's not the same when these items to support it don't exist, so if you don't want to be separated too long and have your emotions cool down, your only choice is to stick with the person since, let alone contact, you don't even knew whether that person is alive or not, let alone how they live once you separated.

TL; DR : the era is different, you are applying modern concept to a world where modern technology and concept don't exist.

[Amuris]

I don't believe era is an issue here. Especially in Koari's case were everything stated doesn't apply. More so, this story doesn't reflect what it was like in the past to begin with, nor is that the issue I was talking about with passions. Passion doesn't disappear with distance. In fact, it often ignites it, making the heart fonder. What I mean is that, when the chaos and struggle end, and they spend their time together, without outside enemies, without fighting eachother, and without the fresh feeling of a relationship.

In fact, I'm having trouble understanding were the impression that this had to do with modern conveniences came from. It has nothing to do with that. The passion itself is short lived. It only last a few years at best. The passion being that feeling that they set your heart afire and that your world revolves around them. That goes away as you become comfortable and adjust to one another. It isn't an aspect of the era, but human, or more accurately animal, nature. However, passion is not love. One can still love while one is calm, but the requirements are different.

Though, look more carefully at your post, your focusing on distance, correct? I don't recall bringing that up however.

Lastly, it isn't worth considering the conditions of another era. This is not history. It is a story, written in modern times, for a modern audience. None of the things we read, with the exclusion of historical pieces, actually reflect another era. They are white-washed and altered to better suit the interests and expectations of the modern audience. I recall nothing of that world that genuinely reflected a past era, rather than rpg tropes. The closest would be slavery, but that, and any historically accurate depictions of it, are not shown in the story. It is vaguely skirted around by only showing those who escape capture, and not the lives of the captured. Before this becomes confusing, let me clarify. As far as I can tell, this has no relation to my argument. I'm merely saying that this doesn't work as an explanation either way.

[dragon1412]

Originally Posted by Amuris

I don't believe era is an issue here. Especially in Koari's case were everything stated doesn't apply. More so, this story doesn't reflect what it was like in the past to begin with, nor is that the issue I was talking about with passions. Passion doesn't disappear with distance. In fact, it often ignites it, making the heart fonder. What I mean is that, when the chaos and struggle end, and they spend their time together, without outside enemies, without fighting eachother, and without the fresh feeling of a relationship.

In fact, I'm having trouble understanding were the impression that this had to do with modern conveniences came from. It has nothing to do with that. The passion itself is short lived. It only last a few years at best. The passion being that feeling that they set your heart afire and that your world revolves around them. That goes away as you become comfortable and adjust to one another. It isn't an aspect of the era, but human, or more accurately animal, nature. However, passion is not love. One can still love while one is calm, but the requirements are different.

It have everything to deal with modern convenient, since it change the culture and especially, how people interact with each others. You and me can interact whenever we want, wherever we want, and this is applied to lovers as well. But back in 15th century, if you and me even just 50km away from each others, i won't even knew whether you are alive or death. Love is a form of relationship and that's mean communication, i repeat, communication.

Your ideas only apply when you are able to contact each others whenever you wants. If you take notices, while modern days love stories revolved around like you said, bonding over period of times. Using the works in 15-17th era, you will see that their love story is much more simple and straight forwards, and one of the foremost theme is how lover waiting for each others without knowing they are alive or dead or how lovers going together till the end. The modern convenient literally change everything about how relationship is developed. And you can ask anywhere, not just me. Anyone would give you the same answer, there is even seminar and essay on how technology change the way we love.

EIDT: oh god, i never talked about the story in the past era, but how their conditions is similar, you don't have tool that help you connects whenever you wants, and thus you can't communicate, so forget about love if you can't even communicate over a long period of times, so what's the choice, stick together, be more honest, that's the normal reaction on that situation.

[Amuris]

I still do not understand. How is distance an issue? They were never far apart nor was anyone that I mention or referred to. Ah, is it that, had they not rushed to be together, they would lose contact and not be able to stay together in this world? That doesn't counter what I suggested though. I said there should be a firm friendship rooted in mutual interest as the foundation of a relationship. In essence, they would follow him regardless. The difference is that love would be a much later development, coming only after their relationship developed.

EDIT: now that I think about it, Shia's case seems like the most appropriate. She starts following them after her tribes problem was...should I say "solved"...I don't know...anyway, she followed them looking for friends that would understand her. After a little while, she was romantically interested in Hajime. A bit weird that I'm using the story I'm complaining about as a good example but this is what I mean. Well, I already mentioned that I like or empathize with Shia more. If the other's reflected this kind of development more, and if there was more time between "lets be friends" and "please love me", I would appreciate it.

[dragon1412]

Originally Posted by Amuris

I still do not understand. How is distance an issue? They were never far apart nor was anyone that I mention referred to. Ah, is it that, had they not rushed to be together, they would lose contact and not be able to stay together in this world? That doesn't counter what I suggested though. I said there should be a firm friendship rooted in mutual interest as the foundation of a relationship. In essence, they would follow him regardless. The difference is that love would be a much later development, coming only after their relationship developed.

This is my last post on this topic since if you don't understand after i put it this much, it's hopeless for a conversation since our understanding is very differents.

1st point: relationship is the basis of love >>>> so how do you develop relationship?? through communication>>> so how do you communicate>>>> talking, meeting >>>> distance became a big problem.

in the case of distance in this novel, you do see how Kaori react after separated from Hajime and how lacking imformation on his survival done on his mentality, yes, that's how it affected her emotion.

there should be a firm friendship rooted in mutual interest as the foundation of a relationship.

wrong, completely wrong, relationship doesn't necessarily be a mutual interest, the mutual interest only arise after a relationship is etablished, and this is coming from an actual psychologist. How to put it more simple...... let's just say that, mutual interest is only one form of relationship, and so is love. While it is possible for mutual interest to develop into love, it is not the only way. Ever heard of suspension bridge effect ??

Now, in love, there is multiple forms of love and how love is developed, ever heard of Triangular theory of love before ??? and you have to realized that love is a social and cultural phenomenon, which is to say, different people have different ways to fall in love, you are entitled to your ways, but that didn't mean your ways of loving is the best one, no ways is the best way, that's just how emotions works. There is love which rely on attachment, but there are also one that's rely on devotion, there is also one rely on equality. This value change according to time and culture, and consequently, the era and the location which that person live in, and their personality also contributing to that. That's mean their no bad side of love either, it just depend on the person is worth it or not.

love would be a much later development, coming only after their relationship developed

that's might be true, but like above, that's only one form of love. There is case where people naturally attached to each others, there is also case where a certain incident change people view and create love( suspension bridge, unconditional trust). What you said is not wrong, however that doesn't mean that method beside what you know is wrong. what you said is nothing more than a sand in a vast desert.

[Mahou]

These kind of fictional settings are seldomly used to portray realistic romance and all external and internal tourmoil corresponding to it. Hec, not even the "normal" shonen romance-dramas do that. If A likes B for being nice, then that's valid in fiction or else nearly every VN would be rendered useless (and I read those mostly for the sweet lovey-dovey interaction). Amuris, you *might* interpret too much into that aspect this time.
The only real case of distance in this WN was when Hajime landed in the Abyss and destroyed his image of Kaori which he had up to this point in time. Due to being betrayed and her promise of protecting him. So the distance got from physical also to the emotional aspect when he had decided to turn into an "lolz I devour everything in my path" "anti-hero". Yue clinging to him made sense as he didn't let her rot in that coffin-thingy nor did he abandon her or simply using her as a "tool" after freeing her. In return Yue's mutter of "being betrayed" managed (be it contrieved or not) to resonate to his "human self" and Bibbidi-Bobbidi-Boo you have the main couple. These last bits might sound like my usual bitterness, but I have really no qualm with Yue. The romance itself, outside of the harem hijinx, was - I think - never meant to be deeply fleshed out.

[dragon1412]

Originally Posted by Mahou

These kind of fictional settings are seldomly used to portray realistic romance and all external and internal tourmoil corresponding to it. Hec, not even the "normal" shonen romance-dramas do that. If A likes B for being nice, then that's valid in fiction or else nearly every VN would be rendered useless (and I read those mostly for the sweet lovey-dovey interaction). Amuris, you *might* interpret too much into that aspect this time.
The only real case of distance in this WN was when Hajime landed in the Abyss and destroyed his image of Kaori which he had up to this point in time. Due to being betrayed and her promise of protecting him. So the distance got from physical also to the emotional aspect when he had decided to turn into an "lolz I devour everything in my path" "anti-hero". Yue clinging to him made sense as he didn't let her rot in that coffin-thingy nor did he abandon her or simply using her as a "tool" after freeing her. In return Yue's mutter of "being betrayed" managed (be it contrieved or not) to resonate to his "human self" and Bibbidi-Bobbidi-Boo you have the main couple. These last bits might sound like my usual bitterness, but I have really no qualm with Yue. The romance itself, outside of the harem hijinx, was - I think - never meant to be deeply fleshed out.

The romance was never a good point of this ones, what i respond to, is Amuris concept of how love must developed after long period.

[Amuris]

Originally Posted by dragon1412

wrong, completely wrong, relationship doesn't necessarily be a mutual interest, the mutual interest only arise after a relationship is etablished, and this is coming from an actual psychologist. How to put it more simple...... let's just say that, mutual interest is only one form of relationship, and so is love. While it is possible for mutual interest to develop into love, it is not the only way. Ever heard of suspension bridge effect ??

Now, in love, there is multiple forms of love and how love is developed, ever heard of Triangular theory of love before ??? and you have to realized that love is a social and cultural phenomenon, which is to say, different people have different ways to fall in love, you are entitled to your ways, but that didn't mean your ways of loving is the best one, no ways is the best way, that's just how emotions works. There is love which rely on attachment, but there are also one that's rely on devotion, there is also one rely on equality. This value change according to time and culture, and consequently, the era and the location which that person live in, and their personality also contributing to that.

that's might be true, but like above, that's only one form of love. There is case where people naturally attached to each others, there is also case where a certain incident change people view and create love( suspension bridge, unconditional trust). What you said is not wrong, however that doesn't mean that method beside what you know is wrong. what you said is nothing more than a sand in a vast desert.

My entire point was, I would not empathize with someone who falls in love due to the suspension bridge effect. I said myself that it is still valid. My entire statement was that I look down on it and would not trust or value a character who feels that way. There are more stable forms of love and I prefer those. This form feels sudden and, to me, not worth noting. I understand your point. However, my point was only a discussion of my perspective and why the feelings of the characters do not connect with me. Notice that borisdrakoni was asking me for my perspective.

Also, I understand that mutual interest is more relevant for modern time as the average person is fully capable of developing their own interest. This is the example I see so I explained it as such. More so, I feel that it is relevant to Hajime
as his interest were a big part of his life that the girls would miss out on if they don't share it with him. That may not be a priority in another culture or concept of love but I do not like that missed time and connection.


EDIT: I was thinking that myself during all this. It's been a long time since I've seen or read a romance I enjoyed but I mostly read shounen and seinin. Especially if it's aimed at teens, it just doesn't suit me anymore...

[dragon1412]

Originally Posted by Amuris

My entire point was, I would not empathize with someone who falls in love due to the suspension bridge effect. I said myself that it is still valid. My entire statement was that I look down on it and would not trust or value a character who feels that way. There are more stable forms of love and I prefer those. This form feels sudden and, to me, not worth noting. I understand your point. However, my point was only a discussion of my perspective and why the feelings of the characters do not connect with me. Notice that borisdrakoni was asking me for my perspective.

you wouldn't empathize didn't mean that they are bad, that's all the problem i have.

[Amuris]

Originally Posted by dragon1412

you wouldn't empathize didn't mean that they are bad, that's all the problem i have.

Halfway through, my language changed to be all encompassing. I apologize. It would be fine if I posted shorter messages. You could still see the points were I say that it is my opinion or experience. However, with this length, you only see me shouting about what should and shouldn't be.

[InMyOwnMind]

Here's a fun little question for this conversation... but how do you even define love in the first place?

If all you have is that one party is obsessively attracted to the other.. isn't that just shallow? Case in point Hiyama... his only interest in kaori is that she was the most beautiful girl in class/school yet prior to her displayed affection for Hajime he acknowledged that he didn't even have the balls to approach her even with that. Ironically if it weren't for Hajime, Hiyama would have never tried to possess Kaori.

[Amuris]

I don't think we need a specific definition of love here. The focus was empathy. I was complaining because I couldn't feel the same way any of the characters did. It doesn't have to be love nor does it have to be any definition. Like I was joking about rantaid. You wouldn't call the feelings he empathized with Hiyama on love, but he seemed to empathize with him. Whatever those strange, incomprehensible feelings were, he was able to share them with the character. That's what I wanted. I focused on love only because it's suppose to be the driving force of a harem and they themselves seem to protest to that but, especially in cases like Yue, there's a mix of feelings that I can't think of a name for in it. To make my stance as simple as I can, "whatever they were feeling, whether they call it love or not, I can't feel the same way and can neither agree with their decisions or understand them."

Is this better?

EDIT/P.S.: Yes, I do think that most of their feelings are either shallow or mis-attributed. However, that is my perspective. As I said before, I don't trust sudden forms of love. As dragon1412 said, more rapid attachments may be more reasonable in their world, I agree with him on this. That doesn't mean I like it though. (I'm saying this a lot lately...)

[Armando99]

Originally Posted by Amuris

I don't think we need a specific definition of love here. The focus was empathy. I was complaining because I couldn't feel the same way any of the characters did. It doesn't have to be love nor does it have to be any definition. Like I was joking about rantaid. You wouldn't call the feelings he empathized with Hiyama on love, but he seemed to empathize with him. Whatever those strange, incomprehensible feelings were, he was able to share them with the character. That's what I wanted. I focused on love only because it's suppose to be the driving force of a harem and they themselves seem to protest to that but, especially in cases like Yue, there's a mix of feelings that I can't think of a name for in it. To make my stance as simple as I can, "whatever they were feeling, whether they call it love or not, I can't feel the same way and can neither agree with their decisions or understand them."

Is this better?

EDIT/P.S.: Yes, I do think that most of their feelings are either shallow or mis-attributed. However, that is my perspective. As I said before, I don't trust sudden forms of love. As dragon1412 said, more rapid attachments may be more reasonable in their world, I agree with him on this. That doesn't mean I like it though. (I'm saying this a lot lately...)

Your points are well thought out, imo. The only problem with it is that it is from your point of view. Like most here had argued, falling for someone takes a variety of situations and it is not generic. What is true in a given situation is not necessarily true in the next, even if the situation is the same. The participants maybe different or even the same but the result varies. Why? because humans/demi-humans (in the context of the story), are fickle at best specially when it comes to emotions.

Take for example the unnamed girl he saved at the bridge before he fell, she did not fall for him right? It just confirms the fact that what works for one does not work for others. When one analyzes love/feelings, it's like diving into unknown waters. Just like Forrest said "you never know what you're gonna get".

This is just my take on the matter.

[rantaid]

Originally Posted by InMyOwnMind

Case in point Hiyama... his only interest in
kaori is that she was the most beautiful girl in class/school yet prior to
her displayed affection for Hajime he acknowledged that he didn't even
have the balls to approach her even with that.

if this was true, he would lust for shia and yue also.... as when hajime show up in bad ass heroic moment trope, he brought those girls and suddenly most his classmate would fawn over envious of how he had two babes hand in hand (and presummably based on their assumption one sex slave)...

but so far, this guy was quite consistent on his feeling, and always obsessed to Kaori like severus snape. "Always.", he was never shown interest to other pretty face like the princess (king's daughter), yue, shia, shizuku, suzu, or that and that.

that is why he is quite respectable ..... so it is like admiration seeing someone so stubborn with his own feeling without even pretending, just that. no love or any such random feeling. this is what happen when a man sees another man doing something worthy of respect of admiration that made him want to spoke praise , congratulate and gave him respect for something he had shown as exemplary act.

[SoloPanda]

While we are on the topic of Hayama's feelings for Kaori, I've always had a certain view of the relationship that relates to real life.

Ok let's put hayama as an idol otaku, Kaori as his favorite Idol/waifu, Kouki as the super popular male model/actor, and Hajime as the childhood friend/normal guy.

The idol otaku loves watching Kaori and putting her on a pedestal forcing in his own ideal image of her. Rumors have Kaori the idol dating the famous Kouki, because they happen to be in the same social circle, our idol otaku grudgingly accepts this because the two seem to belong together. Yet when the tabloids print that she's dating the childhood friend/normal guy Hajime, the idol otaku can't forgive it. He must be tricking her or she must be a whore who deceived him. Now idol otaku Hayama begins stalking her and trying to free her from the normal guy who's obviously deceiving her. When he gets too close she finds out he's stalking her and is terrified. In his jealous rage idol otaku ends up stabbing her.

This is the kind of relationship I see the people in question having. Hayama forced his ideals on other people and felt betrayed when they turned out to be normal humans.

[rantaid]

@SoloPanda

though it hard to deny that possibility, and i would be hypocritical if i was to deny that possibility, the problem is some or more of those useless idol otaku as you puts it ; only want to put them to pedestal and very few has the courage to break that border. they are like religious freaks who only want to worship and worship. Hiyama by this point rebelled from this and fought for his feeling.

Hiyama, wants to break that border and want to possess Kaori for himself, so in my opinion, he has broke free from his own feeling of content seeing her from afar, and now wanting to make progress; like Shia who even though knowing Hajime only has hots and heart for Yue but she remains stubborn and want to be included (some may says this as shamelessness, disgraceful, and annoying) in their own world... however, is not her struggled was no less admirable that she stand numerous of hajime rejection and refusal she want to made herself included? Yue fortunately shes her as lonely little sister, unfortunately hiyama has not such handicap in love.

Hiyama action was rash and thoughtless, but one thing for sure he was breaking free from his discontent and conformity and now want to fight for his own feeling to possess Kaori. but hia action was tactless by relying on fast quick rape expecting quick nice result.

so how is this act not considered similar? is not this double standard of sexism to respect shia attempt to netorare and steal hajime from yue quite blatantly with scorning and villfying Hiyama action of wanting to possess Kaori?

[Armando99]

Originally Posted by rantaid

@SoloPanda

though it hard to deny that possibility, and i would be hypocritical if i was to deny that possibility, the problem is some or more of those useless idol otaku as you puts it ; only want to put them to pedestal and very few has the courage to break that border. they are like religious freaks who only want to worship and worship. Hiyama by this point rebelled from this and fought for his feeling.

Hiyama, wants to break that border and want to possess Kaori for himself, so in my opinion, he has broke free from his own feeling of content seeing her from afar, and now wanting to make progress; like Shia who even though knowing Hajime only has hots and heart for Yue but she remains stubborn and want to be included (some may says this as shamelessness, disgraceful, and annoying) in their own world... however, is not her struggled was no less admirable that she stand numerous of hajime rejection and refusal she want to made herself included? Yue fortunately shes her as lonely little sister, unfortunately hiyama has not such handicap in love.

Hiyama action was rash and thoughtless, but one thing for sure he was breaking free from his discontent and conformity and now want to fight for his own feeling to possess Kaori. but hia action was tactless by relying on fast quick rape expecting quick nice result.

so how is this act not considered similar? is not this double standard of sexism to respect shia attempt to netorare and steal hajime from yue quite blatantly with scorning and villfying Hiyama action of wanting to possess Kaori?

Are we reading the same story? I don't remember Shia ever attempting or even saying that she wanted to steal Hajime from Shia.

As far as the argument about Hiyama, anyone justifying anything for a sick person/character could be considered having the same mentality as the character they are arguing for. Which kind of make sense considering your flaunting of your preference of NTR. I guess, each to his own Arguing about a double standard comparing Shia's actions to Hiyama doesn't even make sense. Can you show me where she indicated that she wanted to possess Hajime? I believe I must have missed that part in the story.

I wanted to stay away from this argument/discussion but the comparison you made was just too much for me to ignore.