KanColle - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[chaosprophet]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

It also will going full circle. remember how Akagi saved Fubuki in ep 1 right before she was "rammed" (or eaten) by the Abyssal destroyers? Will make sense if Fubuki gonna save Akagi the same way

That's something I've forgotten. I agree with you that would be nice if it comes full circle with Fubuki saving Akagi's life on the last episode like she did with Fubuki's in the first one.

[Estavali]

Talking about coming to full circles, it would be ironic if Akagi was to be killed the same way she took out the Anchorage Princess, death by dropped bomb

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

What they then should have done is to make the formation not loosely based on the failed Midway plan, but like this (sortieing from Truk)

Basically, you use these in a similar fashion to what they actually did in Ep1 - the 3rd to scout and screen, the 2nd for surface action and at the back 1st to bomb and provide air cover. And they should all be in contact before entering the enemy zone, not afterwards.

You are just making a formation that take into account the real Midway fiasco, whereas it isn't exactly possible for Akagi to figure that the AL fleet was completely useless.

Regarding Nagato, we have to consider the context of the chain of command here, and having no one taking the control from the HQ is not exactly the best course of action, especially if the defense of the base is also necessary.

CarDiv 5 really is a plot hole that does the anime no credit. Yes, Shokaku was damaged. She took a bath in Episode 8 and looked fine and dandy coming out of it. Again it is the show taking a historical parody too far, this time not even acknowledging what they had already written. At the very least they could have tried a lame dodge such as "Oh we couldn't replace the expended arrows" which at least won't contradict what they've already drawn. They used "repair", leaving us with zero maneuvering room.

They mentioned repair and fatigue before, and repair doesn't always refer to the ship but also planes. Also, the show doesn't imply a kanmusu is STUCK in the bath and can't get out of there during the repair.

I also find it absolutely stunning that even if I accept this premise, the idea of postponing the operation does not enter anyone's mind, especially those who feel they are trapped by fate.

Postponing the operation has no immediate benefits whatsoever. They have been directly attacked out of nowhere, and leaving the abyssals force intact for too long will be too dangerous, especially if they decide to make a direct assault on truk.

That's not very different from my basic point, which is to say that it was a real pull plotwise or planwise to say a destroyer will have that much effect. It'll only be even more absurd if she can determine the fate of the war by herself alone, but as it is, it is pretty bad.

And I never stated she will. The series pretty much impled her contribution would help in their favor. I don't see how it is difficult to consider that a AA destroyer can be an "enabler" for other ships to succeed in an operation. it isn't like the destroyer can be jesus on its own.

It isn't clear it was only one day, but if we insist it was, do remember that as far as anyone can see, it also takes well less than a day to move to Truk or to Midway for that matter (all distances are compressed in this anime compared to RL). They can just decide who's going in the morning, arrive in the afternoon, get a good night's sleep, and head north the day of the operation.

The abyssals already know about truk considering planes have been intercepted by Yamato back then. Suffice to say, if they were to spot a large fleet arriving to truk, it doesn't take a genius to realize that a huge force will come out from there.

If the whole fleet is stationed at Truk, it would make their plan even more obvious considering Truk is an advance base to begin with.
Since Nagato figured out their codes have been breached, I don't particularly see any issue to make further manoeuvres to avoid ambush and the likes.

As for your other point, in certain official works, they do try to fudge up an excuse for the 6-ship limit by saying if they are even one ship over, suddenly they for no reason at all they are much more detectable. But it does not seem to be the case here, and multi-sixpack operations have been done before in this show (all launching within minutes from the same base) so it doesn't seem to count here.

There is a major difference here: the previous operations were done within the area for immediate response.
We are talking about a large fleet that has to take down a fortified base that has a carrier fleet among its defense.

I didn't say she should recall scouts. I said as soon as Tone can't launch, she should decide whether that sector is needed, and if yes, she should take a new Type 97 arrow and fire it.

How does she take a "new type 97 arrow" if her scouts are deployed? Again, I don't see how she can do that unless she recall a recon plane for that. Using a bomber or fighter for this task is not exactly the most optimal here.

You can't really form a screen with one ship anyway. And Kongo, as a battleship, is overall more useful than Kitakami as an escort for Akagi. You can use real stats or you can use game stats, but Kongo has much more firepower and resillence.

Kongou doesn't have as much mobility as Kitakami, and frankly, I seriously doubt she would change anything in such situation when the premise was to attack a base from afar.

While Akagi didn't make the best decision by not having a fully operational screen with her, the spur of moment and the situation at hand called for an immediate decision instead of expecting things would be better "later on".

The last one actually caused Fubuki's stock to drop in my heart, but anyway 4 good moments for the protagonist is not bad for a one-cour. I don't begrudge giving Fubuki 4 moments, but even in a one-cour one can find time to give good moments (which is a bit more than just them working) to the protagonist's friends, and this isn't happening since Ep4 or so.

The whole point is not to spread the focus on too many ships, and frankly, I don't see how the series is making a disservice to the other kanmusu, save perhaps what happened to Yuudachi's second remodel.
Past that, the series direction made sure it was all about Fubuki, while other characters still contribute in there. if you were to remove them, Fubuki would be pretty much a sitting duck in most situations.

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Yes, Shokaku was damaged. She took a bath in Episode 8 and looked fine and dandy coming out of it.

Akagi looked fine and dandy when she was in the bath with more than 15 hours still left. As Klashikari's said, nowhere does the anime say that you can't take a break. Considering the situation of episode 8 it's actually most likely that Shōkaku took a break to get dinner. Akagi took a torpedo and was far longer than 15 hours in the bath. Shōkaku got at least chūha'd, which in all likelihood is at least in the same ballpark, if not more. Her repairs won't be finished by the time she got out of the bath in the evening considering they just arrived not long ago.

That you are at the formation's back does not equate a screen. A screen is a dispersed formation, generally composed of light units, that you deploy at a distance from your main formation - either across its front, semicircle in front or circular. Its biggest purpose is to buy the main force warning time.

In reality that is. When was the last time anybody bothered with that in Kancolle? They are always steaming in close rows there. Besides, neither in the game nor in the anime are there enough escort vessels to form a real life screen anyway.

You can't really form a screen with one ship anyway.

Again you are applying real world logic to Kancolle - which isn't exactly appropriate.

The last one actually caused Fubuki's stock to drop in my heart, but anyway 4 good moments for the protagonist is not bad for a one-cour. I don't begrudge giving Fubuki 4 moments, but even in a one-cour one can find time to give good moments (which is a bit more than just them working) to the protagonist's friends, and this isn't happening since Ep4 or so.

Just going by memory I recount a "good moment" for Zuikaku with her determination to save Shōkaku at all costs in episode 7. Mutsuki had a "good moment" hammering some sense into Fubuki after the latter nearly got sank in episode 10. Just to name two. Honestly, this sounds more like frustration with Fubuki being the main character than actual gripes with the "good moments" count.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

As Marcus H. already explained, it won't cut it at all.
Character death thrown for the sake of drama...

Why does it have to be "for the sake of drama"?

What about "for the sake of realism" or "for the sake of believability"?

Honestly, that would be the main pro to a named protagonist getting sunk in the final episode.

This is a major and hard-fought military battle in a larger war. One could argue that, realistically-speaking, this should result in some deaths on both sides.

This isn't about Gen Urobuchi-esque and Murphy's Law-reinforcing death and despair. This is just about portraying serious military combat in a normal and realistic way.

Yes, it's nice if characters you like survive to the end and get a good ending. That's the pro to nobody dying. I might like that ending more, but I'd probably respect it less. Having a fleet girl or two get killed is frankly the ballsier move, in my view, and it would also reflect the realities of war a bit more honestly and sincerely (and like it or not, warfare is a huge part of this narrative).

If one or more of the fleet girls gets sunk, does it have to be Akagi? No, but here is where drama would (also) come in. Akagi dying would have more of an impact than most fleet girls dying would. If you can get drama *and* realism both in the same shot, I can see the appeal there.

Character death thrown for the sake of drama at the very end of a season is already quite contrived,

You honestly think that would be more contrived than every protagonist miraculously surviving a major battle?

but in Kancolle, it is much worse because Akagi's death would take ages to address: Fubuki's raison d'etre in the base is to serve and escort Akagi.

I think that's overstating it a fair bit. Akagi is Fubuki's most important person, but it's not like Fubuki hasn't made other close and important friendships. The final episode could easily go back to those other close and important friendships (such as Fubuki's friendship with Mutuski) as a big part of the reason why Fubuki can find renewed hope and strength and reason to fight on, even if Akagi was to get sunk. Heck, I can even imagine an impassioned Mutusuki saying to Fubuki, "Losing Kisaragi was incredibly painful and I'll never forget her, but you helped me through that. Now I'm going to help you when you face the same sort of horrible situation yourself, Fubuki!"

[Marcus H.]

I think that's overstating it a fair bit. Akagi is Fubuki's most important person, but it's not like Fubuki hasn't made other close and important friendships. The final episode could easily go back to those other close and important friendships (such as Fubuki's friendship with Mutuski) as a big part of the reason why Fubuki can find renewed hope and strength and reason to fight on, even if Akagi was to get sunk. Heck, I can even imagine an impassioned Mutusuki saying to Fubuki, "Losing Kisaragi was incredibly painful and I'll never forget her, but you helped me through that. Now I'm going to help you when you face the same sort of horrible situation yourself, Fubuki!"

Going for realism then, Fubuki would be made responsible for failing her duties as escort ship and may never be allowed to become an escort ship. That blotch on her record may also destroy her reputation as a flagship. How's that then?

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Why does it have to be "for the sake of drama"?

What about "for the sake of realism" or "for the sake of believability"?

Honestly, that would be the main pro to a named protagonist getting sunk in the final episode.

This is a major and hard-fought military battle in a larger war. One could argue that, realistically-speaking, this should result in some deaths on both sides.

This isn't about Gen Urobuchi-esque and Murphy's Law-reinforcing death and despair. This is just about portraying serious military combat in a normal and realistic way.

I don't think the anime tone set for it to be realistic.

You want a war-like, realistic anime, the set tone has to be much darker and much more gritty. An example is this dj



If the anime set in clearly such a dark and serious tone, and you tell me that some the girls will die in the next minutes for realism. Then yes, it's believable. But as current, the only reason for someone to die , is to build up tragic moment

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

whereas it isn't exactly possible for Akagi to figure that the AL fleet was completely useless.

A decoy fleet is not going to be useful if it hits the enemy at about the same time as the main fleet! Besides, we might not want to see what happens if the decoy fleet actually worked, because then they'll hammer the tiny decoy fleet with 3 Wo-class carriers.

Regarding Nagato, we have to consider the context of the chain of command here, and having no one taking the control from the HQ is not exactly the best course of action, especially if the defense of the base is also necessary.

We are talking about the big action of the IJN kanmusu. Now is not the time to hold back. Let Ooyodo control the people that are still here.

They mentioned repair and fatigue before, and repair doesn't always refer to the ship but also planes. Also, the show doesn't imply a kanmusu is STUCK in the bath and can't get out of there during the repair.

Ep8 at the 8:15-8:20 mark actually explicitly mentions that they had finished their 入渠. Further, if we have to resort to pulling out abilities we've never seen in any other media, why don't we just admit there is a plot hole? Kaga did not learn to fold rabbits because she can get out of the bath whenever she needs to get a new manga or whatever she reads.

Postponing the operation has no immediate benefits whatsoever.

50% more aircraft and carriers is "no immediate benefits whatsoever"?

The abyssals already know about truk considering planes have been intercepted by Yamato back then. Suffice to say, if they were to spot a large fleet arriving to truk, it doesn't take a genius to realize that a huge force will come out from there.

Well, they'd have to spot them first, and if that's so, what can the Abyssals do about it? They can 1 - Attack Truk, presumably with carriers. In which case we can have the battle at more favorable odds than attacking the enemy's base. 2 - They can try to raid the homebase again which we've seen can be easily repaired. 3 - Defend their own base.

(Besides, such concerns did not stop them from assembling in Truk for MO)

I don't particularly see any issue to make further manoeuvres to avoid ambush and the likes.

Such attempts at "cleverness" and deception has caused the IJN's defeat at MIdway. Again, our theme here is to fight the fate of Midway.

We are talking about a large fleet that has to take down a fortified base that has a carrier fleet among its defense.

The principles of the assault do not change such that the correct solution is to use two difficult to join up fleets with the carrier fleet leading.

How does she take a "new type 97 arrow" if her scouts are deployed? Again, I don't see how she can do that unless she recall a recon plane for that. Using a bomber or fighter for this task is not exactly the most optimal here.

Japanese carriers use Type 97 aircraft for both attack and scouting. In real life, in anime, and in the game. She just takes one from the arrows she has reserved for attack (yes, the attack power would drop, but what can you when a catapult goes faulty).

Kongou doesn't have as much mobility as Kitakami, and frankly, I seriously doubt she would change anything in such situation when the premise was to attack a base from afar.

She's not as agile. But she has a lot more firepower and can fire Sanshikidan, which are actually an effective anti-air munition in the anime (and the game ... I think. I hadn't convinced the game to give me any to try yet).

Past that, the series direction made sure it was all about Fubuki

Exactly. Which is not really a good idea. The protagonist is Fubuki, and she should take the cream. But not everything. One reviewer has it right. This is not "Bucky and Friends". Its Kantai Collection.

Originally Posted by Kakurin-san

Her repairs won't be finished by the time she got out of the bath in the evening considering they just arrived not long ago.

Read above.

In reality that is. When was the last time anybody bothered with that in Kancolle? They are always steaming in close rows there. Besides, neither in the game nor in the anime are there enough escort vessels to form a real life screen anyway.

I point you in the direction of:


Akagi could have made that if she did not kick Maikaze and her division off her team.

Just going by memory I recount a "good moment" for Zuikaku with her determination to save Shōkaku at all costs in episode 7. Mutsuki had a "good moment" hammering some sense into Fubuki after the latter nearly got sank in episode 10. Just to name two. Honestly, this sounds more like frustration with Fubuki being the main character than actual gripes with the "good moments" count.

I'll be more appreciative that wasn't necessitated from their failure to put a few fighters above themselves, and that they didn't have to be saved by a destroyer, whose 12.7cm shell "Dai-has" a Flagship Wo. Really - one destroyer shell Dai-has a carrier. As for Mutsuki, incredibly, she later gets counterconvinced, which is ... uh.

Just to clarify a confusion that has gone on in the other thread too, I am pretty neutral towards Fubuki. However, I don't like how as the show goes on, it is increasingly only about Bucky. To take an example, in Ep10, you would, at the very least, expect her friends to jump in the water. But no, the show decides to keep the entire spotlight on Fubuki.

The show also saw fit to add some less than great aspects to Fubuki (which you must have read about in the other thread so I won't repeat her).

[Klashikari]

This answer will be quite long and involves two subjects, so going to use the tldr tag and be done with it: both sides pretty much had stated what they needed to say. At least, I would say I don't have much to add, and it is cycling/stalling at this point.

@Triple_R

TL;DR…

Issue with Akagi's death

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

@arkhangelsk

TL;DR…

Regarding Fubuki and other points of the anime

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[Ithekro]

Sanshikidan work at long range against formations of aircraft (some of the time). They are not very good for close in defense and historically were not considered to be of great value. They just didn't pack enough scrapnel to deal with single airplanes due to that lack of certain technologies. Technologies that the Americans had. Proximity fuses for one. They would tend to damage a lot of planes, but not down them. With more or denser metals to explode out and a proximity fuse to detonate it near the enemy craft, (rather than a timed fuse) than Sanshikidan become effective.

Therefore Hiei is not going to be useful for her Sanshikidan rounds against scattered air attacks that are close in. Her other weapons would still work, but Japanese AAA is notoriously bad in most cases.

Akagi, like all the other carriers, suffers from what their real life versions suffered from. Strict adherence to procedures. There is a proper way to launch an air strike, and that is the only way it is done. By the book. There are proper ways to do recon. By the book. The Japanese Navy is not know for throwing out the book. That was one of their downfalls. That they even had recon out from the carriers at all in this is against standard practise. That was why the Tone-class cruisers were their. They were the eyes of the fleet. That Akagi didn't have a CAP up was unusual, though from the look of it, they got caught like their original forms, lauching a strike. That strike should be able to turn back and engage the surface Abyssals with whatever they have, but they aren't designed to fight air to air.

They still don't know where the Wo are. Just that they are under attack from more than just the Hime.

[Nvis]

Why are ppl saying Midway Hime is the Abyssal Akagi? I don't see the resemblance.

[arkhangelsk]

Nice tag. I have to learn to use it.

TL;DR…

Regarding Fubuki and other points of the anime

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Such attempts at "cleverness" and deception has caused the IJN's defeat at MIdway. Again, our theme here is to fight the fate of Midway.

The Japanese defeat at Midway had many reasons. The overly complex plan was one of them, but it was by far not the factor that caused the Japanese disaster. Compared to the initial mistake in assumptions made by Yamamoto this "cleverness" factor is negligible.

Exactly. Which is not really a good idea. The protagonist is Fubuki, and she should take the cream. But not everything. One reviewer has it right. This is not "Bucky and Friends". Its Kantai Collection.

Fubuki is the clearcut main character of the Kancolle anime. Whether you like it or not, it is about "Fubuki and Friends". Just because the anime's part of the Kancolle franchise does not mean Fubuki getting main character like spotlight is wrong.

Akagi could have made that if she did not kick Maikaze and her division off her team.

Akagi didn't kick off the entire division. She reduced the intial setup by a single destroyer. Instead of Maikaze, Akigumo, Makigumo and Fubuki it was changed to Kitakami, Yūdachi and Fubuki. And as I said before, you can't form a real life screen with four destroyers. Besides, for anti-air purposes a bunched up formation is actually more useful than spreading it out, since then it's possible to increase the intensity of anti-air fire through concentration.

I'll be more appreciative that wasn't necessitated from their failure to put a few fighters above themselves, and that they didn't have to be saved by a destroyer, whose 12.7cm shell "Dai-has" a Flagship Wo. Really - one destroyer shell Dai-has a carrier. As for Mutsuki, incredibly, she later gets counterconvinced, which is ... uh.

You will be surprised then what my Yūdachi and Ayanami can do to them Wos. Also, since when was it confirmed that the Wo was taiha'd? She got a lucky hit in the eye, other than that no damage and retreated then into fog. She isn't in such a bad state overall that would impair her ability to launch planes for example, a sign for damage upward of chūha.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

They are not going to escape with Junyo in their fleet (26 knots on a great day, or Slow - anyway they aren't getting away), unlike Wo.

Since you are using real life stats: The 26 knots are of no concern. Unless in combat situations ships never use their full speed for a long stretch as it consumes a huge amount of fuel. Destroyers are especially bad in that department. A Hatsuharu-class DD for example has a range of about 6000nm at 15 knots cruising speed. That range is reduced to 1000nm at top speed. It will be no problem escaping with a top speed of 26 knots. After getting spotted, turn away at full speed for the first hour, then return to cruise speed, which is significantly lower. I also think you have no real feeling about how fast a knot really is. The difference between 26 knots and 29 knots (max speed of Ryūjo) is five kilometres per hour.

It will be revealed in a day or two anyway, when Yamato attacks them.

Ah okay, so you think surprise effect doesn't matter?

I didn't say they should interrupt them. I said they should jump in.

Jump in and do what?

[Klashikari]

Looks like I have few corrections to do, and new things to add after all... *sigh*

TL;DR…

 

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[arkhangelsk]

TL;DR…

Kakurin-san

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

TL;DR…

Klashikari

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[CGrascal]

Originally Posted by Nvis

Why are ppl saying Midway Hime is the Abyssal Akagi? I don't see the resemblance.

Similar hairstyle and facial features.
Midway Hime acts like a carrier in the game, like Akagi.
You run into Midway Hime in the Operation MI special event in the game. The exact same battle the series is in at the moment. Throw in the fact that other special events that reference certain battles where a ship sank, and the boss of that map also looks like a girl that can be a part of your fleet.

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Maybe the world does look different from the POV of one who at least liked Fubuki enough to pick her for starter.

My starter ship was Samidare. Fubuki sat on level 7 for half a year. Fubuki was chosen as main character of the anime. Whether people like it or not, that's a fact and going by that fact she deserves main character treatment in the anime.

I suppose from this you aren't getting as much success from those destroyers that aren't given cruiser level firepower coefficients, then. Anyway, the report at the episode end says Taiha. Do you want to say Fubuki falsified her report?

Just because I mentioned the two of them doesn't mean that I don't get success from other DDs. Klashikari's already mentioned it, it doesn't have to be the two of them to do heavy damage.

Anyway, yeah, right, because Fubuki and the others can perfectly assess the damage the Wo suffered from looking at her for a couple of seconds. Fubuki hit her eye, but at no point did the Wo actually look like she was incapacitated. The Wo calmly assessed the odds that were stacked against her and chose to retreat.

I'm picking on the slowest ship there, but Ryujo is still not fast at 29. And if they don't use their top speed, the Abyssals can achieve an even greater closure - if that is they don't just catch them with planes...

Why in the world are you mixing real life stats and Kancolle?

And by the way, 29 knots is fast. The Kongōs' max speed was 30 knots, Kaga steamed at a max of 28. And as for the enemy being able to achieve greater closure... you do know that the enemy follows the same principles regarding max speed and fuel consumption do you? They likewise can't keep up max speed for enough time. And catching them with planes, depending on the distance, the time needed to spot the aircraft, the target may be long gone from the area where it was spotted. Besides, this also assumes that a fleet is in the vicinity ready for combat.

If the Abyssals attack Truk, that's just changing the place where the Decisive Battle happens.

Ah, so you think it doesn't matter whether the decisive battle is fought on ones own terms or the enemies terms, e.g. getting surprised by the enemy while not ready for combat? Interesting concept.

And get pelted. Look, I know Fubuki is the main character and she will be the one who comes up with the brilliant saving throw. But I want to at least see some solidarity.

It was Fubuki's training. Why in the world is it solidarity when they disrupt Fubuki's training? If anything it is counterproductive.

[Ithekro]

Fubuki's estimation of the Wo's damage is likely related to the multiple incorrect reports of damages to enemy ship in World War II on all side. Yorktown and Enterprise were both considered sunk more than once. The Americans thought some of the Japanese carriers had survived Midway for a time. The Americans though certain destroyers had been sunk or at least would be laid up for a long time, yet were back long before they were expected (leading to several misidentifications in official sources about which Japanese destroyers did what).

For speeds, sea state and weather also effect things. And not always evenly. Some ships can handle rough seas and other can't. 26 knots is only a problem if you assume the Wo-class representative of the Yorktowns and their 33 or so knots. Even then, you get into problems. Carriers have to turn into the wind to launch aircraft, even the shipgirls do that. If the retreat is with the wind, while the carriers have a tailwing, they can't launch airplanes. And closing to shooting distance, carrier to carrier, is never recommended. Only the likes of Lexington, Akagi, and Kaga were designed to do that when launched. And while the later American carriers had 5 inch guns, it was more for AA than surface combat. Also it would be more useful against destroyers than another carrier.

Sure the enemy destroyer could catch the AI group, but again it is distance over time. How long can the cruisers and destroyers run over 30 knots to catch a carrier that can probably sustain its higher speed for longer?

But do shipgirls and Abyssal even follow those sorts of rules?

If they do or don't, and Truk is attacked, they wil likely catch the shipgirls on land, where they seem useless for combat. While one Wo only damaged the Naval District, three can probably level the smaller Truk base, which will not be as easily repaired since its supplies still have to come from the Naval District. At that point the base is not usable, and the retreating damaged shipgirls are easy prey. Many won't make it back to the Naval District. And it still does nothing desfeat the Abyssals. Probably wouldn't even find the Wo-class ships if they hit as hard and fast as the first one did. That one could get that deep into the Districts waters was the worry, and Truk is easier to get to than the Naval District. And Truk had already been subject to an enemy recon attempt. Possibly by the same Wo before she head off to strike at the Admiral's office.

[Klashikari]

TL;DR…

 

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[Ithekro]

Considering what the American destroyers and destroyer escorts pulled off and Samar, Fubuki hurting a Wo is not out of the question.