AnimeSuki Forums

aohige · 2014-12-09, 23:02

Those who think this is simply celebrating anti-social behaviors missed the point of the speech entirely.
What bias and degrading opinions you have of his lifestyle is completely irrelevant.

The point of the speech is, that value and importance of anything is subjective, you and only you can pass a judgement of worth.

Chaos2Frozen · 2014-12-10, 03:15

Ironically, it proves that people still have prejudice about the hobbies of others even today.

The stigma is real.

Ickarium · 2014-12-10, 10:06

Hey now. I think there's a main difference here.

I'm a gamer myself, but there -is- a pretty big difference between playing a game, even as a hobby and very regularly and what it portrayed William doing. I don't think /anything/ obsessed over to the extent it takes over one's entire life is good, regardless of what it is.

aohige · 2014-12-10, 11:06

That is a judgmental opinion, not an objective one. How do you not realize that.

kuroishinigami · 2014-12-10, 11:14

Ickarium has a point though. Even if work has always been considered as a "positive" by the mass, workaholic,although more socially acceptable, is still seen as a negative trait instead of positive one, so why is gameaholic(which William basically is) get special pass?

Being serious about things are good, but over obsessiveness is not healthy IMO, no matter the subject of your obsessiveness(and this is coming from a heavy gamer, who spend his time not working or studying to play instead of socializing

).

aohige · 2014-12-10, 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

Ickarium has a point though. Even if work has always been considered as a "positive" by the mass, workaholic,although more socially acceptable, is still seen as a negative trait instead of positive one, so why is gameaholic(which William basically is) get special pass?

Being serious about things are good, but over obsessiveness is not healthy IMO, no matter the subject of your obsessiveness(and this is coming from a heavy gamer, who spend his time not working or studying to play instead of socializing

).

But your'e talking about social perspective.
That's the exactly the point William's speech is making.
He's saying social views be damned, it is a self-centrist opinion, but it's the truth when it comes to values and worth.

You and Ickarium are confusing social perspective as the objective universal truth, when it is most certainly not. To an individual, his/her perspective is the world, not those of the peers.

See, the problem is, you are raised with a certain value which you view the world by.
When you live so long with a certainty that you, and the society you belong to values certain traits, you start believing that such values are the "truth".
But unlike what you believe, they never leave the realm of being nothing more than an aspect of social perspective.
Which is important, of course. I agree that those are not ideal conditions for my lifestyle.

But if you neglect the message behind it, you can easily forget that we do not share perspective with anyone else in the world, and your own perception of worth is unique to yourself, and yourself only.

You get what I'm sayin'?

Edit: tl;dr, I'll make it very simple.
You are not William. Therefore, you cannot tell William what is important to William.

Ickarium · 2014-12-10, 12:03

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not saying what's important to William. I'm not judging his liking of video games. I'm saying what is -healthy- for William. While at least MMOs have some social interaction, it really, really is not healthy to focus on one thing like that. -Regardless- of what it is. And hell, I'm /definitely/ not saying he's a bad person, he basically /is/ me when I was younger.

Estavali · 2014-12-10, 13:15

I think we're starting to go off-track here. The important thing is that there is always something special to each and every of us, something that might not be acceptable to others, but is still something that we're proud of and would sooner die than to compromise on (well, maybe not that drastic but you get the idea =3).

It's just like every situation that requires a vote. We always think the fellow at the other side of the fence must be mad to vote for his side. But it only means that he has his reasons for doing so and it's only fair to respect his choice (so as long he respects mine, naturally =3)

The same goes in this case for William. We might think we know what's best for him and, heck, maybe it is. But that doesn't mean we can just walk over and decide for him what to do or what not, no. What gives us this right? Common sense? Well, common sense said humans couldn't fly and air travel is possible simply because folks like the Wright Brothers looked at Common Sense in the eyes and said, "Well, I don't think so!" And what if this is the only way William could connect with other like-minded people? We might think it's wrong but we're not him. We don't have his temperament, strengths and weaknesses. Like what William said to his people, they don't have what those so-called winners-at-life have; what works for us might not work for them. Ultimately it's up to the individual to reach his own conclusions, after weighing his options and deciding what's truly important to him.

And imho the most important thing in this episode is how the Silver Swords came very close to giving up on that precious thing. In this case it's the challenges this World can offer, but in essence it could well be anything, from pantsu (imagine Naotsugu in William's place waxing lyrical about panties

) to a diet of mapo tofu. The thing is that they are so close to despair they're willing to just pack up and run, but what would happen if they did? I should think at the end of the day they'll lose more than they could have imagined. We might not agree with William's lifestyle or his obsession in Elder Tales, but it is clear that his passion was what got the team back on their feet again.

My 2 cents, and it's probably as disoriented as William's speech is

chaos_animagic · 2014-12-10, 18:10

The speech reminded me of my old WoW days...

When WoW was first released, I was in a newbie Guild as one of the 10 founders and when we first started the Molten Core Raid (the only/ first raid), we went though many trial and errors until we got everyone in the right spots, and warriors doing their tank shuffles and battle-rez (this was when there was battle-rez, blizzard removed it a while later)
Took us like a week to finally clear the whole thing, like clearing one boss a day or so until we can clear the boss fast enough to get to the next boss.
Each boss took us like 1~2 hours, a total of 4 or 5 boss was in there, that's 4~10 hour a day trying to clear the dungeon.

Later we actually turned into the largest (not the strongest) but have most member guild on the server.

However we disbanded later on after Wrath of the Lich King was released, due to many people quitting, real life issues, guild-switching, and the guild was too large to organize.

I quited WoW soon after. (switched to playing F2P games)

So... yea... them speech is awesome if you actually had experience in gaming and Raiding.

Spoiler for other small personal details about my gaming days:

kuroishinigami · 2014-12-10, 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by aohige

But your'e talking about social perspective.
That's the exactly the point William's speech is making.
He's saying social views be damned, it is a self-centrist opinion, but it's the truth when it comes to values and worth.

You and Ickarium are confusing social perspective as the objective universal truth, when it is most certainly not. To an individual, his/her perspective is the world, not those of the peers.

See, the problem is, you are raised with a certain value which you view the world by.
When you live so long with a certainty that you, and the society you belong to values certain traits, you start believing that such values are the "truth".
But unlike what you believe, they never leave the realm of being nothing more than an aspect of social perspective.
Which is important, of course. I agree that those are not ideal conditions for my lifestyle.

But if you neglect the message behind it, you can easily forget that we do not share perspective with anyone else in the world, and your own perception of worth is unique to yourself, and yourself only.

You get what I'm sayin'?

Edit: tl;dr, I'll make it very simple.
You are not William. Therefore, you cannot tell William what is important to William.

What I'm having problem is not what William consider important, but the degree of his obsessiveness which I think is too much(he said it himself that he only eats, bath, sleep solely for elder tales). IMO, no matter the object of your obsessiveness, and regardless of the social perspective, it's not healthy physically and mentally to be too obsessive with something.

Loving someone is good, but obsessive love of someone become posessiveness, which IMO is not good. Having a good friend is good, but being obsessive with only that friend and refusing to meet new people is not because you end up being an elitist or too dependant on that friend. Loving elder tales and being serious about it is good, but being obsessive about it to William's degree is not IMO because it might end up with neglecting your health/prevent you from experiencing new things which might become something new you can be serious about after Elder Tales ends(because like the saying, all good things come to an end sometimes

). Even michael jordan, one of the most obsessive basketball player ever has to rest his muscles less he ruins his body.

Do you get what I'm trying to say?

Tl;dr being serious about something is good, regardless the social stigma of the subject, over obsessive with something though is not. Like the saying says, moderation in all things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estavali

I think we're starting to go off-track here. The important thing is that there is always something special to each and every of us, something that might not be acceptable to others, but is still something that we're proud of and would sooner die than to compromise on (well, maybe not that drastic but you get the idea =3).

It's just like every situation that requires a vote. We always think the fellow at the other side of the fence must be mad to vote for his side. But it only means that he has his reasons for doing so and it's only fair to respect his choice (so as long he respects mine, naturally =3)

The same goes in this case for William. We might think we know what's best for him and, heck, maybe it is. But that doesn't mean we can just walk over and decide for him what to do or what not, no. What gives us this right? Common sense? Well, common sense said humans couldn't fly and air travel is possible simply because folks like the Wright Brothers looked at Common Sense in the eyes and said, "Well, I don't think so!" And what if this is the only way William could connect with other like-minded people? We might think it's wrong but we're not him. We don't have his temperament, strengths and weaknesses. Like what William said to his people, they don't have what those so-called winners-at-life have; what works for us might not work for them. Ultimately it's up to the individual to reach his own conclusions, after weighing his options and deciding what's truly important to him.

And imho the most important thing in this episode is how the Silver Swords came very close to giving up on that precious thing. In this case it's the challenges this World can offer, but in essence it could well be anything, from pantsu (imagine Naotsugu in William's place waxing lyrical about panties

) to a diet of mapo tofu. The thing is that they are so close to despair they're willing to just pack up and run, but what would happen if they did? I should think at the end of the day they'll lose more than they could have imagined. We might not agree with William's lifestyle or his obsession in Elder Tales, but it is clear that his passion was what got the team back on their feet again.

My 2 cents, and it's probably as disoriented as William's speech is

This I agree with. There's always something you can't give up in life regardless of what other people thinks or how impossible it may seem, something that defines you as you at this point in life(because people do change with time), and all those people who laughs at that something can just go to hell. It's just that like what I said above, all things in moderation. I agree with the point of the speech, but I don't really like the delivery which make it seems that it's okay to ignore everything else for that one thing you consider important now(which might no longer be important further down inyour life)

Estavali · 2014-12-11, 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

This I agree with. There's always something you can't give up in life regardless of what other people thinks or how impossible it may seem, something that defines you as you at this point in life(because people do change with time), and all those people who laughs at that something can just go to hell. It's just that like what I said above, all things in moderation. I agree with the point of the speech, but I don't really like the delivery which make it seems that it's okay to ignore everything else for that one thing you consider important now(which might no longer be important further down inyour life)

Mmm, this too I agree, about all things in moderation =3

That said, we have to understand that there's a place and time for everything and something drastic measures or one-time tricks are necessary to break out of a dead end. For example, there's that famous anecdote about Cao Cao and his "OH LOOK GUYS, PLUMS AHEAD!" lie, which gave his thirsty men the drive to march on to an actual water spot. I doubt veterans of his army would fall for this again, but at that time and place then, it served its purpose and got them out of trouble.

Years later on, William and gang might look back to this day and feel at least a bit embarrassed at this for-one-or-for-none lifestyle, but right now, to them, this is their truth, that precious thing that keeps them going. This fanaticism, if we may call it so, is exactly the fuel needed to rejuvenate their spirits again. William himself did consider other ways to cheer and re-motivate his people again, but he knew only too well that anything that's not from the heart would be meaningless.

White Manju Bun · 2014-12-11, 15:38

Im not an obsessive gamer but many of William's points hit home for me, epsc the part about friends and how non-gamers sometimes see us. And even how non-animer watchers view anime fans. You could input many different hobbies into his speech. I really liked this episode since Im sucker for backstory and I really thought his monologue was written well. Also the OST was spot on.

aohige · 2014-12-12, 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

What I'm having problem is not what William consider important, but the degree of his obsessiveness which I think is too much(he said it himself that he only eats, bath, sleep solely for elder tales). IMO, no matter the object of your obsessiveness, and regardless of the social perspective, it's not healthy physically and mentally to be too obsessive with something.

Loving someone is good, but obsessive love of someone become posessiveness, which IMO is not good. Having a good friend is good, but being obsessive with only that friend and refusing to meet new people is not because you end up being an elitist or too dependant on that friend. Loving elder tales and being serious about it is good, but being obsessive about it to William's degree is not IMO because it might end up with neglecting your health/prevent you from experiencing new things which might become something new you can be serious about after Elder Tales ends(because like the saying, all good things come to an end sometimes

). Even michael jordan, one of the most obsessive basketball player ever has to rest his muscles less he ruins his body.

Do you get what I'm trying to say?

Tl;dr being serious about something is good, regardless the social stigma of the subject, over obsessive with something though is not. Like the saying says, moderation in all things.

See, the problem is... you're preaching on a moral high ground.
I agree with you, but, it is still just an opinion of others. I am not William, and I can only judge him as an outsider. I cannot decide a worth of ANYTHING to William, I have no right to.

The problem is you're being a preacher. You're trying to enforce "healthy lifestyle" on someone who doesn't give two shits what you want from him. You are not his parent or wife. You can make a judgement from a perspective of a stranger (and by definition never objective), but you nor I cannot, and have no right to, decide what is the person's priority.

Ghostfriendly · 2014-12-21, 10:19

It's amazing that William mentioned God in his speech. He should've remembered he hasn't created the universe, he can't decide to what level an activity is worthwhile or unworthy, any more than what is good or evil. As the previous posts have said, humans can't decide for each other what's right or wrong. Only God can; He created the world for his own benefit, and created humans so that their purpose and highest joy would be to worship him. When William says he can decide what good and evil are for himself, he's dethroning God and neatly laying out the reasoning behind all the sin and sadness in the world. Because no game or work or friendship can give the same joy as fellowship with God in heaven, or is guaranteed success by Jesus's sacrifice for the faithful.

I should mention that if the motive behind William's actions was to complete the raid to help the people of Akihabara, because they were loved by God, or to play computer games/watch anime for resting and interest, he might well be safe. But anime and games can easily become an end in themselves; that's what I need to watch myself for, since I'd be more blameworthy than William if I ended up living for the wrong purpose.

View Poll Results: Log Horizon S2 - Episode 10 Rating
Perfect 10	11	26.83%
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7 out of 10 : Good	4	9.76%
6 out of 10 : Average	4	9.76%
5 out of 10 : Below Average	0	0%
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2 out of 10 : Very Bad	0	0%
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Voters: 41. You may not vote on this poll

2014-12-09, 23:02	Link #61
aohige ( ಠ_ಠ) Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep	Those who think this is simply celebrating anti-social behaviors missed the point of the speech entirely. What bias and degrading opinions you have of his lifestyle is completely irrelevant. The point of the speech is, that value and importance of anything is subjective, you and only you can pass a judgement of worth. __________________

2014-12-10, 03:15	Link #62
Chaos2Frozen We're Back Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Redgrave City Age: 35	Ironically, it proves that people still have prejudice about the hobbies of others even today. The stigma is real. __________________ Devil Trigger , Subhuman , Crimson Cloud , Mad Qualia

2014-12-10, 10:06	Link #63
Ickarium Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2013	Hey now. I think there's a main difference here. I'm a gamer myself, but there -is- a pretty big difference between playing a game, even as a hobby and very regularly and what it portrayed William doing. I don't think /anything/ obsessed over to the extent it takes over one's entire life is good, regardless of what it is. __________________

2014-12-10, 11:06	Link #64
aohige ( ಠ_ಠ) Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep	That is a judgmental opinion, not an objective one. How do you not realize that. __________________

2014-12-10, 11:14	Link #65
kuroishinigami Ava courtesy of patchy Join Date: Jan 2009	Ickarium has a point though. Even if work has always been considered as a "positive" by the mass, workaholic,although more socially acceptable, is still seen as a negative trait instead of positive one, so why is gameaholic(which William basically is) get special pass? Being serious about things are good, but over obsessiveness is not healthy IMO, no matter the subject of your obsessiveness(and this is coming from a heavy gamer, who spend his time not working or studying to play instead of socializing ). __________________

2014-12-10, 12:03	Link #67
Ickarium Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2013	I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not saying what's important to William. I'm not judging his liking of video games. I'm saying what is -healthy- for William. While at least MMOs have some social interaction, it really, really is not healthy to focus on one thing like that. -Regardless- of what it is. And hell, I'm /definitely/ not saying he's a bad person, he basically /is/ me when I was younger. __________________

2014-12-10, 13:15	Link #68
Estavali 物語は、もう、おしまい……？ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: In the Horizon Age: 43	I think we're starting to go off-track here. The important thing is that there is always something special to each and every of us, something that might not be acceptable to others, but is still something that we're proud of and would sooner die than to compromise on (well, maybe not that drastic but you get the idea =3). It's just like every situation that requires a vote. We always think the fellow at the other side of the fence must be mad to vote for his side. But it only means that he has his reasons for doing so and it's only fair to respect his choice (so as long he respects mine, naturally =3) The same goes in this case for William. We might think we know what's best for him and, heck, maybe it is. But that doesn't mean we can just walk over and decide for him what to do or what not, no. What gives us this right? Common sense? Well, common sense said humans couldn't fly and air travel is possible simply because folks like the Wright Brothers looked at Common Sense in the eyes and said, "Well, I don't think so!" And what if this is the only way William could connect with other like-minded people? We might think it's wrong but we're not him. We don't have his temperament, strengths and weaknesses. Like what William said to his people, they don't have what those so-called winners-at-life have; what works for us might not work for them. Ultimately it's up to the individual to reach his own conclusions, after weighing his options and deciding what's truly important to him. And imho the most important thing in this episode is how the Silver Swords came very close to giving up on that precious thing. In this case it's the challenges this World can offer, but in essence it could well be anything, from pantsu (imagine Naotsugu in William's place waxing lyrical about panties ) to a diet of mapo tofu. The thing is that they are so close to despair they're willing to just pack up and run, but what would happen if they did? I should think at the end of the day they'll lose more than they could have imagined. We might not agree with William's lifestyle or his obsession in Elder Tales, but it is clear that his passion was what got the team back on their feet again. My 2 cents, and it's probably as disoriented as William's speech is __________________ Signature by liro

2014-12-10, 18:10	Link #69
chaos_animagic Senior Member Join Date: May 2009	The speech reminded me of my old WoW days... When WoW was first released, I was in a newbie Guild as one of the 10 founders and when we first started the Molten Core Raid (the only/ first raid), we went though many trial and errors until we got everyone in the right spots, and warriors doing their tank shuffles and battle-rez (this was when there was battle-rez, blizzard removed it a while later) Took us like a week to finally clear the whole thing, like clearing one boss a day or so until we can clear the boss fast enough to get to the next boss. Each boss took us like 1~2 hours, a total of 4 or 5 boss was in there, that's 4~10 hour a day trying to clear the dungeon. Later we actually turned into the largest (not the strongest) but have most member guild on the server. However we disbanded later on after Wrath of the Lich King was released, due to many people quitting, real life issues, guild-switching, and the guild was too large to organize. I quited WoW soon after. (switched to playing F2P games) So... yea... them speech is awesome if you actually had experience in gaming and Raiding. Spoiler for other small personal details about my gaming days: World of Warcraft is actually my 3rd MMORPG that I've played (besides Warcraft, but that's single player), I got to Grand Marshal with my Paladin solo, yes, I solo'd to get the rank, didn't get any pre-made, only did PuG (pick up group) but I always helped my team won any Battleground. First MMORPG was Starcraft (I rarely played the single player, went straight to multiplayer, mainly BigGameHunter maps) Second was MU Online (before it gone global and is Pay2Play back in China - yes, I played the first original MU, also the one that allowed "hanging" or "afk leveling" with macro devices) Tho I did not play Starcraft 2... because I was waiting on their "Battlechest"... but they changed it, and won't release any. In fact, they made the next Starcraft 2 expansion a stand-alone, where you don't need to purchase the prequals to actually play and continue the story line. (still deciding if I should buy that or not, lol) Currently not playing any MMO, because they're all boring. I am watching some other games tho, not gonna list, there's quite a big long list. Only game I am playing right now is Pokemon XY & ORAS. I might get a Wii U and SuperSmashBro4 later during Christmas ;P

2014-12-21, 10:19	Link #74
Ghostfriendly Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008	It's amazing that William mentioned God in his speech. He should've remembered he hasn't created the universe, he can't decide to what level an activity is worthwhile or unworthy, any more than what is good or evil. As the previous posts have said, humans can't decide for each other what's right or wrong. Only God can; He created the world for his own benefit, and created humans so that their purpose and highest joy would be to worship him. When William says he can decide what good and evil are for himself, he's dethroning God and neatly laying out the reasoning behind all the sin and sadness in the world. Because no game or work or friendship can give the same joy as fellowship with God in heaven, or is guaranteed success by Jesus's sacrifice for the faithful. I should mention that if the motive behind William's actions was to complete the raid to help the people of Akihabara, because they were loved by God, or to play computer games/watch anime for resting and interest, he might well be safe. But anime and games can easily become an end in themselves; that's what I need to watch myself for, since I'd be more blameworthy than William if I ended up living for the wrong purpose.