Madoka Magica - Movie 3 Spoilers and Speculations

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I kinda want to see Sayaka to fight for everyone's happy end.

That's what I wanted for Homura, and look what happened.


Then again, with Urobuchi out of the picture, $hinbo can do whatever he wants, and he's a Sayaka fanboy so you may get your wish granted.

[AuraTwilight]

Well, you couldn't come up with a better wish yourself so it's not like you can even prove that. Still, my point was that your point was moot, because it doesn't matter if you or someone else could come up with a better wish. You weren't there facing Walpurgisnacht. Madoka was there, so all that matters is if she could have come up with a better wish, and she couldn't. So yeah, I did change my goalpost, but I did it because what you were talking about was a moot point.

Changing goalposts is intellectually dishonest, just saying. My point only became moot in the face of you doing so.

I think the scenario is still possible if we accept the two premise. One that Madoka's power only affects Magical girl. I'm also thinking that omniscient is perhaps a bad word to describe it. Perhaps, what Madoka has is something closer to omnipresent. She can observe the lives of magical girls everywhere. I think this knowledge alone is enough to do her job. Besides, omniscient gives rise to the thought that Madoka knows even the inner thoughts of the magical girls which is a bit creepy.

At the very least, she seems to understand their wishes well enough to act on whether or not they'd want them undone if they regret them.

It doesn't really matter, though, because Homura ACTED on something she thought about, and Madoka should definitely be able to observe that.

Another premise that we have to accept is "isolation field". Some kind of technology by the incubator which allows a place wherein Madoka cannot observe what is happening inside.

Using this we can infer how the movie was possible. Since the incubators are not magical girls, they can plan something like this and Madoka would have no way to observe said planning. This even become more easier due to the existence of "isolation field." Once the incubator managed to put Homura or any Puella Magi inside the field, Madoka's knowledge about them cease to exist. The only way Madoka can influence and know what is happening would be enter the field herself.

This premise doesn't make sense, though. How can they block Madoka's vision if they have no knowledge of any of her traits or how they operate? How in the hell can you even shield something from observation from OUTSIDE REALITY? Your interference field is by-nature part of the observed reality. I understand it's necessary to make the movie work but that's just a point against it, for me.

I've also thought of a third premise. And that is Homura is a walking exception to the laws. She managed to remember Madoka when its impossible and her existence in the new world is a paradox. Judging from what her conversation with Kyuubey, she doesn't seemed to have changed her wish still. Besides, Madoka's karma - the reason her wish worked in the first place is due to Homura.

The only problem with this is that Madoka's observational abilities allowed her to learn what sort of person Homura was. Of the options offered, I find this the most elegant, though.

While I'm sure that your a swell person, Aura. But, even if you are the smartest and kindest person in the world. I don't think remaking the world in your own image is going to be a good wish, ever.

Maybe not, but the success or failure of the wish isn't really the point I was making at the time. I could just try again. Kazu-kun's objection that Madoka couldn't think of a better wish in that situation is irrelevant because failure just means Homura reset time. Madoka gets as many chances as she wants until she gets it right. Just tell Homura to keep a goddamn notepad of how things turn out and put Madoka in the loop.

Well, this wish is better than the other one. Though, it does run in the problem on how can you measure happiness and suffering. And since, I believe in the theory that happiness is a state of mind rather than what you have. I'm having an uncomfortable feeling that this might be painting smiles effect where you are effectively lobotomizing people.

And taking out the imperfection of the world. What imperfection? Who gets to decide what is imperfect? Some may say that the fact that the world isn't perfect is what makes it wonderful.

Still, I will concede that perhaps your wish will make the world a heaven. But, it will be your version of what Heaven is. There might be many people who will think that your vision of Heaven is technically hell for them.

The intent of the wish is to make reality a morphic thing where people don't feel suffering not because they're incapable of it, but because nothing is capable of forcing them to put up with anything. Less a lotus eater machine or brainwashing so much as "Everyone can consciously build their own paradise through force of will."

Perhaps a better wish would be "I wish everyone could grant their own wishes, forever, with the clarity of mind to understand their consequences and rectify wishes gone wrong. Suck it, Incubator."

I can do this all day. The exact wish I make doesn't matter.

Kazu-kun, and any other detractor, is unable to judge me incapable of doing better than Madoka unless I run through the entire list of possible wishes. But it only takes one wish submission for me to prove my own argument. Devil's Proof.

And there is the tiny problem that your going to turn in a Witch eventually.

But being a Witch isn't part of how I defined Heaven. Because Despair != Heaven. Gotcha.

The reason why Madoka's wish is good in my opinion is because it addresses the key root of the Puella Magi system. No matter how much good a Puella Magi does, it will be undone because they will turn into a witch. Thus, one of the best wishes in that situation are variations of what Madoka did. Eliminate the witch problem.

I agree, actually. Madoka satisfies her narrative needs absolutely and for what the story needed her wish was absolutely perfect.

My only point was that if becoming a god wasn't something she wanted, she could've made a better wish. "Boohoo, I regret becoming a god" isn't really an acceptable development to me.

When Madoka became Madokami, she gained access to all knowledge about all magical girls in all universes/timelines. However, she only gained the knowledge that existed prior to her wish. In other words, she didn't gain knowledge to how people may respond to her new godlike status. She didn't get "butterfly effect" knowledge, you could say. That's her "blind spot", that Homura and Kyubey are able to take advantage of due to their knowledge of her existence. Homura retained knowledge of Madoka's existence in order to maintain Homura's own wish. You can't protect someone who you don't even know anything at all about, of course.

The problem with this is that Madoka's wish lets her transcend time, and collect all Magical Girls 'after' her wish. The idea of 'before' and 'after' her wish is temporally meaningless.

I don't know how true this is, exactly. To what extent she could have pataphysically reshaped the universe is not absolutely clear.

Fair enough, but Madoka's wish is the ultimate McGuffin, so~...

I don't think Kyuubei has any control over the nature of the wish he grants. And obviously he can't refuse to grant wishes once contracted.

Interesting is Kyuubei. He has the power to grant wishes. Where did he get that power? Also, he's emotionless, yet goal-driven. His real name is Incubator. What's an incubator? Doesn't all this mean he is a tool whose purpose is production of magical girls? And if he is, whose tool is he?

My personal headcanon on the issue is that he's basically an Artificial Intelligence created by his master race (the Incubators aren't literally the same as the civilization that created them) and so while he's emotionless, he does have a Primary Directive he won't ever disobey. He grants wishes by effectively allowing human's inborn power to come out in a manageable form. Perhaps humans could replicate the process by entering an altered state of consciousness with drugs or trancing, and 'call out their spirit' while wishing for something...

I completely agree. Madoka's wish produced the Maju. Who knows what another wish might have produced.

What Madoka wanted was an end to the twisted system of MGs becoming what they fight. Despair itself, or some such, is too lofty a goal.

To put an end to this tangent, I probably wouldn't actually make any of the example wishes I've put forward; I was being extreme for the sake of making my point.

Don't understand why people think Homura is bad since she strip madoka from godhood to make her able to live a happy normal life that madoka "really want" to be,

Because she's denying Madoka the freedom to make her own choices in her life. It's like if a cop said "you know, sometimes I wish I could just work some normal, safe job and not have to worry about stopping badguys. I'd like to spend more time with my family. But I feel the greater good is more important."

And then his wife trapped him in the basement and tied him up so he could never leave and put himself in danger again.

You can give any rationalizations you want, but what Homura did was selfish and maybe even evil. It cannot be morally justified as the right thing to do.

Re:Homucifer: The best theory I could find on the situation was that Homura's wish had a loophole. She wished to be strong enough to protect Madoka, and Madoka was God, and Madoka and Homura are karmically linked, ERGO the universe made Homura powerful enough to trump Madoka.

Nothing else makes any sense to me.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Changing goalposts is intellectually dishonest.

Not when I edited my post to make the change clear even before you replied to it for the first time. Maybe you didn't read my post carefully. Either way, it's not my fault.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

You can give any rationalizations you want, but what Homura did was selfish and maybe even evil.

Selfishness means self-interest, caring for oneself only. Homura's actions are motivated by what she thinks are Madoka's feelings. She's doing this for Madoka's sake. She may be misguided and wrong, but she's not selfish.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

My only point was that if becoming a god wasn't something she wanted, she could've made a better wish. "Boohoo, I regret becoming a god" isn't really an acceptable development to me.

Going by Doki subs...

Kyubey: Do you really plan to become a god?

Madoka: I don't care what you call it.

What I take from this is that Madoka didn't care if her wish made her into a god or not. If it had to, in order for her wish to be realized, then so be it. If it didn't have to, in order for her wish to be realized, then so be it. And I'm sure that Madoka sincerely felt this way at the time.

But much like Sayaka's "There's no way I regret anything" in Episode 5, this sort of firm fortitude is easier to maintain before the rubber hits the road, and before you have to live out the full consequences of your wish.

Maybe Madoka found it boring being a God-like entity. Maybe she longed to be a normal human girl again. You can only miss something after it's been gone. You can only know for sure if you'll dislike something once you experience it.

The problem with this is that Madoka's wish lets her transcend time, and collect all Magical Girls 'after' her wish. The idea of 'before' and 'after' her wish is temporally meaningless.

Everybody is in wooden boats going downstream. There are no oars, there is no means to push against the current. We could consider this a decent analogy for what the passage of time is like for us - We all age, get older, and move forward through time. This is the only way we can experience time.

Madoka's wish is like giving someone in that wooden boat a powerful motorboat, a steering wheel to precisely control it, an invisibility cloaking device, and a hookup to all-seeing satellites and videos that cover every point on every part of the stream (as well as nearby alternate streams). Madoka can go to and fro through time, through alternate realities, and she has the ability to zoom in on it all (or at least on the parts pertaining to magical girls). And nobody notices her until they're dead.

With one exception. Homura's boat has a sonar on it that tracks one thing and one thing only - Madoka's motorboat. Homura is the only human that knows that Madoka is "out there", which is empowering knowledge. Madoka didn't consider the full ramifications of what this meant, and even her all-seeing satellites can't account for it. This enables Homura to take Madoka by surprise when Madoka comes to collect her.

Because she's denying Madoka the freedom to make her own choices in her life. It's like if a cop said "you know, sometimes I wish I could just work some normal, safe job and not have to worry about stopping badguys. I'd like to spend more time with my family. But I feel the greater good is more important."

And then his wife trapped him in the basement and tied him up so he could never leave and put himself in danger again.

I largely like this analogy. Except I'd change it a bit - The cop's wife puts him into a VR dream world against his will, and leaves him there without a way out, SAO-style. I think that more accurately captures the general pleasantness, but also artificiality, of what Homura has thrust upon Madoka.

[AuraTwilight]

Not when I edited my post to make the change clear even before you replied to it for the first time. Maybe you didn't read my post carefully. Either way, it's not my fault.

Maybe you edited your post while I was in the mist of posting it? I quoted the original statement on my end, here. :P

Selfishness means self-interest, caring for oneself only. Homura's actions are motivated by what she thinks are Madoka's feelings. She's doing this for Madoka's sake. She may be misguided and wrong, but she's not selfish.

Except yes, she IS selfish, because she's defining Madoka's sakeness not just by Madoka's feelings (even if that's a component), but also by her wanting Madoka to live a specifically safe lifestyle. She wants a world with Madoka in it for her own sake as well; she cannot cope with the separation regardless of Madoka's feelings on the matter. Homura can rationalize this with her love for her, and it might even be genuine, but she is not truly putting Madoka before herself in a way that would make it a truly selfless or altruistic thing.

Going by Doki subs...

Kyubey: Do you really plan to become a god?

Madoka: I don't care what you call it.

What I take from this is that Madoka didn't care if her wish made her into a god or not. If it had to, in order for her wish to be realized, then so be it. If it didn't have to, in order for her wish to be realized, then so be it. And I'm sure that Madoka sincerely felt this way at the time.

But much like Sayaka's "There's no way I regret anything" in Episode 5, this sort of firm fortitude is easier to maintain before the rubber hits the road, and before you have to live out the full consequences of your wish.

Maybe Madoka found it boring being a God-like entity. Maybe she longed to be a normal human girl again. You can only miss something after it's been gone. You can only know for sure if you'll dislike something once you experience it.

That's all fair, granted. I concede that there could be a Sayaka parallel here. My counterpoint is that in all the scenarios up to this put depicting Madoka contracting, she's always entirely satisfied and proud of it because of the good she brings to others, regretting it only when Witching out comes into play. I would argue that Madoka's pride in her new station would be proportional to the good she's doing she'd otherwise never be able to do. She'll tell you it's wrong for her to lose hope; she'll tell you that every time. ^^

Also, she's always with everyone in an omniscient deity way so it doesn't seem like she's lonely. As a timeless entity, there's no real way for her moods or attitudes to change as we observe it. When she spoke with Homura in the final episode before they parted, Madoka had already been at her task for THOUSANDS OF YEARS, maybe millions or billions more if the Incubators are contracting non-human races (and they probably are).

Timeless entities don't change the way you and I do. Madoka's not receiving new stimuli or experiencing a flow of time passing that would cause things like 'boredom' or 'loneliness' in a way that any of us would understand it. If she's come to regret her station, I would bet that it's probably because she's aching for the transient suffering it causes for Homura, etc.

Everybody is in wooden boats going downstream. There are no oars, there is no means to push against the current. We could consider this a decent analogy for what the passage of time is like for us - We all age, get older, and move forward through time. This is the only way we can experience time.

Madoka's wish is like giving someone in that wooden boat a powerful motorboat, a steering wheel to precisely control it, an invisibility cloaking device, and a hookup to all-seeing satellites and videos that cover every point on every part of the stream (as well as nearby alternate streams). Madoka can go to and fro through time, through alternate realities, and she has the ability to zoom in on it all (or at least on the parts pertaining to magical girls). And nobody notices her until they're dead.

With one exception. Homura's boat has a sonar on it that tracks one thing and one thing only - Madoka's motorboat. Homura is the only human that knows that Madoka is "out there", which is empowering knowledge. Madoka didn't consider the full ramifications of what this meant, and even her all-seeing satellites can't account for it. This enables Homura to take Madoka by surprise when Madoka comes to collect her.

Maybe. I can't refute it, but we can't take it for granted, either. Madoka sees all universes that ever will be; she might see all actions Homura will ever take even knowing about this knowledge. At best, Madoka sees Homura's decisions in a quantum manner and has to flip a coin on it.

I largely like this analogy. Except I'd change it a bit - The cop's wife puts him into a VR dream world against his will, and leaves him there without a way out, SAO-style. I think that more accurately captures the general pleasantness, but also artificiality, of what Homura has thrust upon Madoka.

True, but I was going more for the Misery vibe of it. Take away VR Dream World and replace with the Gilded Cage trope. The princess who has everything and can do whatever she likes and be waited on hand and foot...but will never so much as able to step into her front yard, much less the wider world.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Except yes, she IS selfish, because she's defining Madoka's sakeness not just by Madoka's feelings (even if that's a component), but also by her wanting Madoka to live a specifically safe lifestyle. She wants a world with Madoka in it for her own sake as well; she cannot cope with the separation regardless of Madoka's feelings on the matter. Homura can rationalize this with her love for her, and it might even be genuine, but she is not truly putting Madoka before herself in a way that would make it a truly selfless or altruistic thing.

I think you're a bit biased. Homura basically said that she would be okay with Madoka's sacrifice if Madoka herself was happy with this. Homura would be lonely and feel like shit, but she would cope for Madoka's sake. But if Madoka isn't happy, if Madoka's in pain, then Homura would do anything to change that, even if it meant going against Madoka's free will.

Is it wrong? Yeah, but it's not selfish. Homura isn't doing this because she can't cope with the separation. She can, she already did, and in fact, she's willing to do so again. After all, Madoka may become her enemy now, and that could mean eternal separation.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

True, but I was going more for the Misery vibe of it. Take away VR Dream World and replace with the Gilded Cage trope. The princess who has everything and can do whatever she likes and be waited on hand and foot...but will never so much as able to step into her front yard, much less the wider world.

Well, it's not so bad. At least Homura gave Madoka a more interesting backstory. Due to Homura's actions, Madoka spent a lot of time...



(Sorry, I've been waiting to do that joke since I heard about Madoka now being a transfer student from America )

Gotta admit I love the humorous symbolism of Homura taking away Madoka's freedom... and making her a transfer student from "The Land of the Free", lol.


I've somewhere between you and Kazu-kun on the debate over how altruistic/how selfish Homura's actions are. I'll want to see the movie for myself before I take a strong position on that.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I think you're a bit biased. Homura basically said that she would be okay with Madoka's sacrifice if Madoka herself was happy with this. Homura would be lonely and feel like shit, but she would cope for Madoka's sake. But if Madoka isn't happy, if Madoka's in pain, then Homura would do anything to change that, even if it meant going against Madoka's free will.

Is it wrong? Yeah, but it's not selfish. Homura isn't doing this because she can't cope with the separation. She can, she already did, and in fact, she's willing to do so again. After all, Madoka may become her enemy now, and that could mean eternal separation.

The Madoka that said that had none of the experiences that the Madoka who became a goddess had.

It's like going back in time to ask someone their opinion of something they did 10 years later. Even though it's the same person, they have no idea why'd they would make that decision. It's just justification if Homura uses that as an excuse.

[Hagoshod]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

No, Kyubey is only trying this now because Homura told it about Madoka and the previous timelines close to the end of episode 12. It gave it ideas, which is always BAD.

And this is still a bullshit transition because even Mami, a random human dork with no insight into the Incubator conspiracy, in the final episode is talking about how the system has mysterious holes everybody knows about and some unknown force is specifically preventing the magical girls from becoming something worse when they "die."

Homura didn't tell the Incubators anything they wouldn't have already noticed on their own and had literally millions of years to experiment with (if they were always supposed to have the ability to experiment in the TV show's logic). Kyubey's random Homura-blocking powers are a textbook example of a desperate retcon.


edit: and FUCK I wasn't even thinking about how the TV show established Madoka's little brother was FULLY conscious of her existence and kids with that childhood ESP trope could pick up on her. So the idea of Homura being the first and only human the Incubators could have possibly observed before they had a reason to start experimenting doesn't work there, either.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Endscape

The Madoka that said that had none of the experiences that the Madoka who became a goddess had.

That doesn't necessarily matter a whole lot though.

I think Homura comes to the following conclusion - Madoka was very content and happy to live the life of a normal, human girl. She loved her friends, and her family, and would never want to part with any of them. She made a sacrifice for the sake of magical girls in general, and that's admirable of her, but it was a sacrifice. Madoka was forced to part with many of the people she loved, and at a very young age, due to her wish. Madoka shouldn't have to do that, as it must be saddening to her given how important these people are to her. She should be able to continue to enjoy her happy human life.

I think Homura sincerely believes that. And I think it's a reasonable belief on Homura's part given everything that she knows.

[daimonth]

I think its probably not a good idea to make presumptions about a system that is il defined even now. Omniscience declared by character is not exactly reliable. Character declared omniscience is unreliable in that even if there are timeline beyond her sight she can't observe them to provide counter arguement against her assumption. Furthermore The foundation of the system that is her wish does not guarantee that quality, as omniscience is not required for the task of eliminating all witches before they are born, merely the time and place of a witches birth.

Homura does not only know the existence of 'law of cycles' but also of witches, which is unobservable under the new universe, as well as the energy that they generate due to the transfer from hope to despair. (Though it is obvious to viewers) Kyubey may not be aware of the profitability of such a system until Homura pointed it out. As what remains after a Magic Girl expires was unknown to them untill that point. If they see no profit to be gleamed by trying to find out why soul gem disappeared they might not have bothered to experiment on it.

Kyubey ep 12 : "From this standpoint, I am more interested in the concept that you called witch. As a mean to collect emotional energy, that concept is very attractive. "

As for what Madoka feel, I feel her character song that came with BD1 was really sufficient proof and I have thought as much since the t.v. ending.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That doesn't necessarily matter a whole lot though.

I think Homura comes to the following conclusion - Madoka was very content and happy to live the life of a normal, human girl. She loved her friends, and her family, and would never want to part with any of them. She made a sacrifice for the sake of magical girls in general, and that's admirable of her, but it was a sacrifice. Madoka was forced to part with many of the people she loved, and at a very young age, due to her wish. Madoka shouldn't have to do that, as it must be saddening to her given how important these people are to her. She should be able to continue to enjoy her happy human life.

I think Homura sincerely believes that. And I think it's a reasonable belief on Homura's part given everything that she knows.

I agree that Madoka shouldn't have to sacrifice herself. But she chose to do it. Homura is spitting on Madoka's free will.

Homura is a godlike entity now, why not choose to find some other way to fulfill Madoka's wishes while letting her live a normal life?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Endscape

I agree that Madoka shouldn't have to sacrifice herself. But she chose to do it. Homura is spitting on Madoka's free will.

No one is denying that. All we're saying is that Homura is doing this for the sake of what she thinks is Madoka's happiness. Now, her actions are probably misguided, and she's definitely doing something wrong by denying Madoka her free will. But even if that's the case, her motivation isn't selfish.

Originally Posted by Endscape

Homura is a godlike entity now, why not choose to find some other way to fulfill Madoka's wishes while letting her live a normal life?

Ultimately, Madoka's just a powerful magical girl who exists outside of time and space. She's probably not omnipotent or omniscient, and she isn't even transcended in the spiritual sense (that's just a metaphor the series works with). What she can do is what she does: take care of witches. Don't ask for more.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Endscape

I agree that Madoka shouldn't have to sacrifice herself. But she chose to do it. Homura is spitting on Madoka's free will.

In Homura's mind, she's guarding Madoka's happiness from Madoka's tendency to sacrifice herself for the sake of others. She's in essence protecting Madoka from herself.

At a philosophical level, I don't like it. Because like yourself, I value free will.

But at an emotional level, I get why Homura is doing this. I'm sure most (if not all) of us have friends or family members who have tendencies that we consider bad habits that tend to harm themselves, and we wish we could get our loved ones to just cut it out. For their own sake, more than anything.

Homura is a godlike entity now, why not choose to find some other way to fulfill Madoka's wishes while letting her live a normal life?

Madoka said that she didn't want to be separated from any of the people that are important to her. Not counting Homura herself, she specified three Puella Magi (Sayaka, Mami, Kyouko). "Law of Cycles" would mean that these girls likely disappear before Madoka even reaches human adulthood.

If I'm interpreting things right here, Homura deserves credit for realizing that simply keeping Madoka alive as a human girl isn't good enough. She also has to look out for Madoka's loved ones.

To keep Madoka's ideal human life going, Homura has to totally warp the system. So she does so.

[daimonth]

The entire T.V. Series was essentially Madoka telling Homura to protect her from herself/ bad decision, using magic that reset their memories each use.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by daimonth

As for what Madoka feel, I feel her character song that came with BD1 was really sufficient proof and I have thought as much since the t.v. ending.

Oh yeah, that song. If I remember correctly the lyrics goes in line with what she says in the movie, right? Interesting.

[AuraTwilight]

I think you're a bit biased. Homura basically said that she would be okay with Madoka's sacrifice if Madoka herself was happy with this. Homura would be lonely and feel like shit, but she would cope for Madoka's sake. But if Madoka isn't happy, if Madoka's in pain, then Homura would do anything to change that, even if it meant going against Madoka's free will.

Is it wrong? Yeah, but it's not selfish. Homura isn't doing this because she can't cope with the separation. She can, she already did, and in fact, she's willing to do so again. After all, Madoka may become her enemy now, and that could mean eternal separation.

Yea except, as I already explained, that conversation happened in a goddamn dream world made specifically to match Homura's desires as closely as possible, and it directly and blatantly contradicts the last conversation Homura had with Madoka in the 'real world'. Like, holy hell, her confirmation bias is blowing up the meters, it's so ginormous. She decided it was the real Madoka ENTIRELY ON HER OWN with no outside prompting. She didn't even have Kyubey's "Yo I trapped Godoka in your Soul Gem" to go on at that point, yet.

And Homura is still being selfish, because she's doing what she wants, and not what Madoka wants. It doesn't matter how well-intentioned or morally-justified is. Selfishness isn't evil or morally wrong in of itself.

But THIS is, because regardless of what Homura thinks Madoka wants, she still essentially abducted Madoka and forced her will on hers. She deprived Madoka of her sense of agency, and that's not healthy for either of them. Regardless of the possible good it might bring her later, Homura did Madoka a tremendous disservice of respect and is treating her as a child who doesn't have the capacity to give her consent on things. Homura is acting like she knows better for her when SHE AIN'T EXACTLY THE ONE WHO MAY-OR-MAY-NOT-BE-OMNISCIENT, HERE.

Even if what Homura is doing isn't EVIL, it's still incredibly dickish, disrespectful, possessive, and unhealthy. It's still BAD.

edit: and FUCK I wasn't even thinking about how the TV show established Madoka's little brother was FULLY conscious of her existence and kids with that childhood ESP trope could pick up on her. So the idea of Homura being the first and only human the Incubators could have possibly observed before they had a reason to start experimenting doesn't work there, either.

In fairness, this could be just Tatsuya specifically rather than all kids ever, and until Homura enters the picture Kyubey has no reason whatsoever to give Tatsuya any acknowledgement. It could very well be Tatsuya only remembers/sees her because she's been there his entire life and he has no context for life without her. Her parents both seem to have a vague nostalgia for her, so there's focus on her family specifically. They notice her absence.

That doesn't necessarily matter a whole lot though.

I think Homura comes to the following conclusion - Madoka was very content and happy to live the life of a normal, human girl. She loved her friends, and her family, and would never want to part with any of them. She made a sacrifice for the sake of magical girls in general, and that's admirable of her, but it was a sacrifice. Madoka was forced to part with many of the people she loved, and at a very young age, due to her wish. Madoka shouldn't have to do that, as it must be saddening to her given how important these people are to her. She should be able to continue to enjoy her happy human life.

I think Homura sincerely believes that. And I think it's a reasonable belief on Homura's part given everything that she knows.

And I can agree with all that. I'm not exactly proposing that Homura's the fangirl from Misery, or anything, despite my allegory about why her actions are messed up.

It's not that she did it, it's that she didn't give Madoka a choice in the matter, or even talked to her about it. It's that she had to go gung-ho into the Lucifer role and just stomp on Madoka's toes to pin her in submission. Maybe she felt it was necessary; maybe she feels like she's the villain for it. But if that's so, don't put yourself in such a goddamn complacent position in the new world of yours. Turn into Homukami and deliver Magical Girls to valhalla so Madoka doesn't have to, but don't have your cake and eat it too. That just PROVES that your actions are selfishly motivated. You're not sacrificing ANYTHING.

I think its probably not a good idea to make presumptions about a system that is il defined even now. Omniscience declared by character is not exactly reliable. Character declared omniscience is unreliable in that even if there are timeline beyond her sight she can't observe them to provide counter arguement against her assumption. Furthermore The foundation of the system that is her wish does not guarantee that quality, as omniscience is not required for the task of eliminating all witches before they are born, merely the time and place of a witches birth.

By this argument, we can never accept that any character, in any body of work, is ever omniscient, ever.

There's a Law of Conservation of Detail, in Narrative. If a character says something, isn't demonstratably lying, and is given no indication of being wrong or mistaken, we should take them at their world or else we get "BUT WHAT IF EVERYTHING IS A DREAM OF HOMURA'S AFTER GETTING WITCH KISSED IN TIMELINE 1?"

Granted, Rebellion does seem to call Madoka's possible omniscience into question, but that movie is already problematic on so many other issues that it's honestly more conservative to just call the film into question.

As for what Madoka feel, I feel her character song that came with BD1 was really sufficient proof and I have thought as much since the t.v. ending.

That song's probably not fully canon. It's not like Gen or Shinbo wrote it.

I agree that Madoka shouldn't have to sacrifice herself. But she chose to do it. Homura is spitting on Madoka's free will.

That's pretty much the crux of it. Up until this point, Homura had valid justifications, such as Madoka acting in ignorance, or previous-timeline sentiments providing more informed justification.

But the Madoka who became a goddess was the most well-informed, emotionally-and-mentally balanced, and level-headed of all her incarnations at that point. It was as perfect a manifestation of her uninhibited will of Madoka's as there could ever be.

And Homura disregarded it, and decided what she decided Madoka wanted was more important. Maybe Madoka DID want it, but Homura didn't see it necessary to so much as check, and she has no delusions that she does want it, as her final line makes clear.

If Homura doesn't see it fit to honor Madoka's true will, or give her true independence to be herself, and make her own decisions in life, then she's a tyrant of the worst sort. The tyrant that loves you and keeps you in chains because she doesn't want to see you hurt. The worst kind of abuser is the one that genuinely thinks they're acting in your best interests. Those types of poisonous lovers are the ones who are hardest to change from their ways, and that might be indeed what the series is trying to get at.

But I'm not going to accept it, because the Homura I grew to know over the original broadcast seemed better than that, and I didn't see sufficient evidence in the movie to feel like she'd of made such a change. Others disagree, and that's fine. And I admit I have a personal bias. I've been deprived my entire adolescence by someone who thinks just like Homura does, and it was total hell that I still suffer from, and will probably never fully recover from.

They didn't hurt me, and I had friends and a life, and you could even say I was happy a lot of the time, but my choices didn't matter, and I had no future except the one they said I could have, and they would rather hurt me than let me have otherwise. I was effectively the cop kept in the basement from my analogy.

What Homura is doing is evil, to me. There's simply no way around it. In a world where the highest, most exalted, divine, beautiful, and compassionate act in the universe was a chaste and pure soul alleviating suffering while honoring all free choices, this act of 'love' is the imposition of happiness without any honor of freedom or decision-making. Madoka's future, if no one opposes Homura, will be Homura's loving embrace squeezing the life out of Madoka.

Homura, who fell in love with Quality X of Madoka Kaname, is holding onto her by suffocating that very same Quality. She's desperately insisting on holding onto a shell even if it means killing what made Madoka beautiful in the first place.

It's fucking disgusting.

No one is denying that. All we're saying is that Homura is doing this for the sake of what she thinks is Madoka's happiness. Now, her actions are probably misguided, and she's definitely doing something wrong by denying Madoka her free will. But even if that's the case, her motivation isn't selfish.

As I keep saying, it is selfish by definition. Acting for the sake of others out of love and compassion is still selfish if you're doing it for what YOU want. She is selfish because she gains something from it and wants that something. That's it. There's no moral judgment in calling Homura's action selfish; that moral judgment comes from other aspects about the action, like its invasiveness.

she isn't even transcended in the spiritual sense (that's just a metaphor the series works with)

What does this even mean? "transcended in a spiritual sense" is something you're going to have to define before you can say Madoka isn't such.

I mean, shit, the Wikipedia buddhist definition gives me "the state at which one is no longer under the control of animalistic, base desires and is aware of a higher spiritual reality."

Which, you know, Madokami totally fits. Even if you accept Madoka's attachment and and feelings of loneliness from Homura's dream world is accurate, that wouldn't be one of the Buddhist Animalistic Desires, even if it is 'a desire'.

You need to define this or you can't continue on this point.

EDIT: You know, on the point of Buddhism, this brings up an interesting idea, and an interesting anecdote. I'll start with the anecdote.

I know a professor who's a diehard buddhist monk. He dedicates all his free time outside of teaching on his duties as a monk, with all leisure hours spent on attending to his physical needs or meditating. He had a wife and a family. He parted on good terms with them. Even if they didn't want him to leave, he felt he needed to for himself. He pays child support. He gives them all his spare income, infact; he don't need it. He loves them, still, but he can't let himself go to their birthday parties or anything like that. They're not his family anymore. He has to shed his attachment to them to do something he feels is more important. He NEEDS this.

...What if Madoka was the same way? The metaphor here is obvious, she's clearly along the same line of thought. What if Madoka was a buddhist? Like, what if she was a serious Buddhist? She let herself have nice things but felt bad about it, or resolved to change things. What if Madoka's wish in episode 12 was infact a religious devotion for her, and to deny Madoka of it would be to deny her most sacred beliefs?

What if Homura had to step on Madoka's religion, here? How does that change how this act of rebellion is perceived? Just a thought experiment.

What she can do is what she does: take care of witches. Don't ask for more.

She also seems to deliver Puella Magi souls to a separate plane of existence, and if Oriko Magica's epilogue is anything to go by, doesn't restrict her souls to Witched-out Puella Magi, but includes those who had their gems shattered.

Also, if Sayaka is the standard instead of a special case, she also offers Puella Magi the chance to have their contracts cosmically retconned, undoing their wishes so that they never contract.

She also pretty much broke the first law of thermodynamics by letting Homura keep her ribbons, and the creation of Wraiths seems to be an atleast-accounted-for byproduct so that Puella Magi would still need to fight, and thus no one's wishes would be undone by her own unless they specifically were cool with that.

She seems to have a lot of goddamn leeway in how she gets to conduct herself, even if she's restricted to this specific job of defeating Witches.

In Homura's mind, she's guarding Madoka's happiness from Madoka's tendency to sacrifice herself for the sake of others. She's in essence protecting Madoka from herself.

At a philosophical level, I don't like it. Because like yourself, I value free will.

But at an emotional level, I get why Homura is doing this. I'm sure most (if not all) of us have friends or family members who have tendencies that we consider bad habits that tend to harm themselves, and we wish we could get our loved ones to just cut it out. For their own sake, more than anything.

Indeed. Maybe Homura even sees Madoka's actions as self-destructive, like alcoholism, or something.

But, y'know what we do with those sorts of people? Counseling. We help them through it and try to heal them. We don't physically restrain them from the bars, we lean on them real heavy and are like "Don't do it man. You promised me, bro."

Homura responded to alcoholism by flushing someone's car keys down the toilet. She crossed the line.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Yea except, as I already explained, that conversation happened in a goddamn dream world made specifically to match Homura's desires as closely as possible, and it directly and blatantly contradicts the last conversation Homura had with Madoka in the 'real world'. Like, holy hell, her confirmation bias is blowing up the meters, it's so ginormous. She decided it was the real Madoka ENTIRELY ON HER OWN with no outside prompting. She didn't even have Kyubey's "Yo I trapped Godoka in your Soul Gem" to go on at that point, yet.

The dream world isn't designed to match Homura's desires. It matches the desires of those who get caught inside (this is stated!!). That's why Kyouko and Sayaka ended up living together in the dream world. If what Madoka tells Homura when they're in that world is inconsistent with what she said in the tv series, that's a problem of writing. Madoka isn't being manipulated. She's not saying this because it's what Homura wants to hear. These are her true feelings. The fact that she's living a relatively normal life inside the dream world validates that.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

And Homura is still being selfish, because she's doing what she wants, and not what Madoka wants. It doesn't matter how well-intentioned or morally-justified is. Selfishness isn't evil or morally wrong in of itself.

Selfishness means self-interest. The fact that Homura's doing what she wants and not what Madoka wants doesn't make her actions selfish. What matters is for whose sake is she doing this. If she's doing it for Madoka's sake there's no selfishness in her actions, even if that isn't what Madoka wants.

Btw, I don't think Homura's morally justified. In fact, I think her actions are probable misguided and wrong. I do think she's totally selfless though.

[daimonth]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

By this argument, we can never accept that any character, in any body of work, is ever omniscient, ever.

There's a Law of Conservation of Detail, in Narrative. If a character says something, isn't demonstratably lying, and is given no indication of being wrong or mistaken, we should take them at their world or else we get "BUT WHAT IF EVERYTHING IS A DREAM OF HOMURA'S AFTER GETTING WITCH KISSED IN TIMELINE 1?"

Granted, Rebellion does seem to call Madoka's possible omniscience into question, but that movie is already problematic on so many other issues that it's honestly more conservative to just call the film into question.



That song's probably not fully canon. It's not like Gen or Shinbo wrote it.

I am going to disagree with you on that, as I mentioned the system thus far has not been clearly defined to the point that its infallible to question. Yet you seem keen on taken a statement as absolute truth when the fact remain that there exist possibility of inaccurate statement. Character declaring omniscience are quite often brought down by things that they are in fact unaware of as common device in literature, proving that they are not in effect omniscient. To be honest, my feeling at this point toward accepting a character as omniscient would be to say so only after the narrative/ author confirmed as such, because it becomes less a matter of character perception.

As for the character song, its as canon as it needs to be, otherwise it would not have been allowed its position in the offical works as part of the first blu ray. I dont think that they would be ignorant enough to allow a song to have its position, sung by Yuuki Aoi, without knowing or approve of its content.

[AuraTwilight]

The dream world isn't designed to match Homura's desires. It matches the desires of those who get caught inside (this is stated!!). That's why Kyouko and Sayaka ended up living together in the dream world. If what Madoka tells Homura when they're in that world is inconsistent with what she said in the tv series, that's a problem of writing. Madoka isn't being manipulated. She's not saying this because it's what Homura wants to hear. These are her true feelings. The fact that she's living a relatively normal life inside the dream world validates that.

It's also the world Homura made herself to make herself happy. The others in the dream world are primarily happy as a result of Homura's happiness necessitating it. It's her world first and foremost.

Even if you're complete right, though, HOMURA DOESN'T KNOW THIS at the time. Her confirmation bias issue doesn't go away.

Selfishness means self-interest. The fact that Homura's doing what she wants and not what Madoka wants doesn't make her actions selfish.

Yes it does. Madoka's happiness and presence in Homura's life factors into Homura's self-interest, because her entire life up to this point across multiple timelines has been based around her emotional need to protect Madoka and keep her in her life in some fashion, even if Madoka doesn't like her for it. Madoka's safety and human happiness is so important to Homura that it's to the detriment of all other priorities in Homura's mind. Self-interest is more than just "take what you want" or "survive" or "fuck you got mine." It also includes "I feel good for donating to charity" and, yes, even "Hell yea I totally saved all Magical Girls ever. I feel validated and full of self-worth for making something of my life with this sacrifice."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_egoism < This is pretty much Homura's modus operandi.

Btw, I don't think Homura's morally justified. In fact, I think her actions are probable misguided and wrong. I do think she's totally selfless though.

She isn't. She CAN'T be, because she gains so much out of this and loses absolutely nothing (except maybe Madoka's friendship, but Madoka's character is such that this isn't really a concern).

Homura's not really sacrificing anything except maybe her mental health through putting herself through such rigors, but it's a sacrifice of something that she feels isn't of significant priority in the face of her categorical imperative. She's selfish because her personal morality is defined on the happiness and well-being of a single person who she personally values to the extent of everything else in the world.

She's selfish because the end-result of her moral priorities results in her own happiness. That's basically the entirety of Ethical Egoism.

I am going to disagree with you on that, as I mentioned the system thus far has not been clearly defined to the point that its infallible to question. Yet you seem keen on taken a statement as absolute truth when the fact remain that there exist possibility of inaccurate statement. Character declaring omniscience are quite often brought down by things that they are in fact unaware of as common device in literature, proving that they are not in effect omniscient.

You're absolutely right, but in the context of the 12 episodes of the anime, nothing calls Madoka's omniscience into question, and the only thing that does (Rebellion) has lots of things that could be cases of bad writing or plot holes even if it didn't question Madoka's omniscience at all. I am seriously calling into question the in-universe coherence of this movie.

And anyway, Madoka's omniscience being absolute is an entirely academic point of contention; she is omniscient about everything in the story that really matters or that she has any possibility to influence (The lives of Magical Girls). Hell, her not knowing Homura would pull shit on her is a blatant contradiction of things she should have perfect observation of, her omniscience on other things completely disregarded.

To be honest, my feeling at this point toward accepting a character as omniscient would be to say so only after the narrative/ author confirmed as such, because it becomes less a matter of character perception.

Everything is a matter of character perception because we see the series of viewpoint characters and we have no omniscient narrator describing things to us outside of the context of a character speaking about or observing something. If you're going to take this viewpoint, then we loop back to the "Everything could be a dream!" scenario. You're engaging in special pleading by calling this one thing into question and not everything else that meets the same criteria.

If you're going to wait on an author confirmation, don't hold your breath. If you're waiting on narrative confirmation, you had one until Rebellion called it into question. Madoka observes all universes that ever were and ever will be that matter in the narrative. Her ability to see beyond that is immaterial and our ability to discern the difference between her virtual omniscience and actual omniscience is entirely impossible to falsify because we ourselves are not omniscient. We HAVE to take our word for it because nothing in the narrative could ever, ever falsify her claims. The fact that our TV or computer screens can't depict the entirety of the omniverse means there will always be a blindspot you can claim Madoka's observing.

"Yea, that's approximately billions of universes, alright. But what about the TRILLIONS we're not being shown, hmmm?"

As for the character song, its as canon as it needs to be, otherwise it would not have been allowed its position in the offical works as part of the first blu ray. I dont think that they would be ignorant enough to allow a song to have its position, sung by Yuuki Aoi, without knowing or approve of its content.

Amy the cat existed in the OP and Gen Urobuchi had no goddamn idea about it until it was too late to change it. Her existence as a piece of Madoka's character backround was invented months after the fact. This argument doesn't hold water. You could claim the song's lyrics were retconned into relevancy with the creation of Rebellion, but you cannot reliably argue that they were always intended to be canonically relevant beyond anything aside from coloring Madoka's character (which can be done without giving canonical insight into her actual thoughts, as demonstrated by the 100 Questions survey officially filled out for her in her character-voice).