Madoka Magica - Movie 3 Spoilers and Speculations

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by night_sentinel

In fact, if there is a season 2 and there is a clash between Madoka and Homura. I believe its because of the incapability of both of them to be SELFISH.

I agree, and I think Sol Falling reached the same conclusion in a previous post.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Well, she probably feels like she has play the part. After all she's going against Madoka's will. If Madoka is seen as God, then Homura, who opposes her wish, must be the Devil. The truth is, she isn't the Devil or even evil, but she makes herself play the part to rationalize her guilt for making Madoka her enemy.

The movie didn't convey "rationalization" at all. She seemed genuinely overjoyed to take the role. And she was quite creepy in it too.

Believe me, I'd really like to believe what you're saying, but it just wasn't there.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

The movie didn't convey "rationalization" at all. She seemed genuinely overjoyed to take the role.

Think about it. She's trying to convince herself. She has to appear totally evil and overjoyed. There would be no point otherwise.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

I saw that as being because the transformation wasn't yet complete.

Well, even in that final "Homura in the desert" scene, isn't Madokami talking to Homura? I remember hearing Madokami's voice there, at least.

Originally Posted by night_sentinel

Yeah. Seeing the transcripts without the heavy music and imaginary. I would be a bit hard pressed to see what Homura is doing as selfish.

Are Homura's actions 100% about protecting Madoka? Or is at least part of Homura's motivation that she can't bear to live without Madoka's physical presence in her life?

I recall the old story of a child finding a wounded bird, and slowly nursing that bird back to health. The child grows attached to the bird, and doesn't want to let it go. The child tells herself, and her parent, "But it's dangerous in the wild! We should keep the bird to protect it!"

The child's parent says "If you truly love the bird, you will set it free".

I can't help but think about this old story in light of what Homura is doing here.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Are Homura's actions 100% about protecting Madoka? Or is at least part of Homura's motivation that she can't bear to live without Madoka's physical presence in her life?

There's no way to know for sure what's in her mind. Even Madoka's motivation is rendered ambiguous in the movie. The tv series made it seem like she was genuinely happy about her sacrifice, that it wasn't a sacrifice at all, but in the movie this notion is put in doubt.

My take is that Homura's doing it for Madoka's sake, but it's just my opinion.

[Triple_R]

I think that people can have multiple motivations, multiple reasons for taking actions.

I don't doubt for a second that Homura sincerely thinks that Madoka would be happier as a normal human living a happy normal human life. So I do think Homura views her actions as protecting Madoka.

But that bit about Homura being overjoyed, as Wanderer pointed out? I think there is a darker side to Homura that's going "Ha ha ha ha! At last, she's mine! Finally, I am secure in the knowledge she will never be beyond my grasp!"

Of course Homura's overjoyed. The love of her life is no longer some faraway dream, fading in the mists of one's memory. The love of her life will now no longer leave her, or forsake her.

Just assume that Homura is madly in love with Madoka. Then it all makes sense, and makes Homura a very interesting, fascinating, and sympathetic character, imo.

[night_sentinel]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Are Homura's actions 100% about protecting Madoka? Or is at least part of Homura's motivation that she can't bear to live without Madoka's physical presence in her life?

I recall the old story of a child finding a wounded bird, and slowly nursing that bird back to health. The child grows attached to the bird, and doesn't want to let it go. The child tells herself, and her parent, "But it's dangerous in the wild! We should keep the bird to protect it!"

The child's parent says "If you truly love the bird, you will set it free".

I can't help but think about this old story in light of what Homura is doing here.

Its perhaps selfish, but every action can be construed as selfish in some way or the other. Yes, I'm also including Madokami's action in the last episode in the series there.

Anyway, back on topic. I really don't think that moral lesson can be applied here.

Spoiler for Daimonth transcript:

63:11

Homura: I had a very scary dream.

Madoka: A scary dream?

Homura: In that dream Madoka went to a place far away, a place that I could never reach. I was the only one who remembered Madoka, I was lonely and in pain. However no else understood my feeling. In the end I doubted whether or not the Madoka I remembered ever existed in the first place or just that something I imagined.

Madoka: That is a very painful dream, however don't worry, i would never go away.

Homura: How can you be so certain?

Madoka: Because that is something that even Homura-chan started to cry about, I would never be able to endure it?

Homura: That is also something that is unbearable to you?

Madoka: That is right, Homura-chan Sayaka-chan, Mami-san, Kyouko-chan, papa, mama, Tatsuya and Hitomi-chan and the rest of the class, I don't want to part with any of you. Even if that is something I must do, I would not have the courage to go through when the time comes.

Homura: Ah... is that so.... is this your true feeling then? Then I was a fool to have misunderstood it. I should not have approved. I should have used every possible mean to stop you back then. Madoka... I know.. that you are kind to everyone and not afraid of making choices. When you feel that there is something that only you can do, you would not hesitate even if it means hurting yourself.

Madoka: Homura-chan?

Homura accepted Madoka's wishes back then. She obviously is not okay with it. But, she has made some peace with it since this is what Madoka wants. Then, the movie comes along and she found out, that Madoka's current position which is separated from her family and friends is something unbearable for her.

She then changed her position on Madoka's status. She even said so in the last paragraph. ^^


Anyway, this is kinda moot point because as I've said in the previous post. Due to Kyuubey, Madokami is in danger. Thus, Homura's position in the movie is witchify and despair for eternity or die and allow Kyuubey to endanger Madokami. Its sort of a Morton Fork, only worse. Because really both of it will end with Kyuubey winning. If she witchify which is her initial choice, she will only delay Kyuubey's triumph. If she allowed herself to meet Madoka now, Kyuubey traps Madokami.

Really, faced with those choices. Its really no wonder she did what she did. Its really the only choice. Perhaps, it can be argued that it is something that she personally wants but that does not make it selfish or wrong by default.

[Solace]

Madoka is the concept of selfless action, Homura is the concept of selfish action. Madoka is always focused on everyone else to the exclusion of herself, and Homura is always focused on Madoka to the exclusion of everything else.

The duality has been there ever since the tv series. That's not to say that Madoka doesn't have some doubts about her own fate, or that Homura isn't concerned for others, it's just that they have extreme personalities.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But that bit about Homura being overjoyed, as Wanderer pointed out? I think there is a darker side to Homura that's going "Ha ha ha ha! At last, she's mine! Finally, I am secure in the knowledge she will never be beyond my grasp!"

The reason I can't take her evil act as face value is that she knows Madoka will eventually become her enemy for what she's done. It makes little sense for her to be truly overjoyed knowing that imo.

Originally Posted by Solace

Homura is always focused on Madoka to the exclusion of everything else.

If that "everything else" includes herself, I can't agree that she's selfish.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by night_sentinel

Anyway, back on topic. I really don't think that moral lesson can be applied here.

No, it can still be applied. Part of that moral lesson is trusting the bird to take care of itself against the various threats that can be found in the wild.

For Madokami, the representation of that threat is Kyubey.

Here, I think, is the key problem for Homura - She doesn't trust Madoka.

In fairness to Homura, it's not hard to see why doesn't trust Madoka. Madoka died in Timeline 1, became a witch in Timeline 2, died in Timeline 3, became a witch in Timeline 4, etc...

And at a relationship level, Madoka has never truly answered Homura's feelings for her. So that also doesn't encourage trust.

Where I'd like to see the narrative go from here is that Madoka eventually has to answer Homura's feelings for her, and the two learn to trust each other. Homura lets Madoka go, and Madoka deals with QB once and for all (in a humane way, but a decisive way - Perhaps she'll give the Incubators emotions, and then they get consumed with guilt over their actions, and reform themselves).

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Perhaps she'll give the Incubators emotions.

I get the feelings they already have emotions. QB at least was scared shitless of Homura. And in the scene after the credits it kinda seems like he's crying. Then again, maybe it was just fanservice for the QB-hating crowd and it doesn't mean anything.

[night_sentinel]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No, it can still be applied. Part of that moral lesson is trusting the bird to take care of itself against the various threats that can be found in the wild.

For Madokami, the representation of that threat is Kyubey.

Here, I think, is the key problem for Homura - She doesn't trust Madoka.

In fairness to Homura, it's not hard to see why doesn't trust Madoka. Madoka died in Timeline 1, became a witch in Timeline 2, died in Timeline 3, became a witch in Timeline 4, etc....

Ah I see. So that's where you are coming from. Yeah, I agree that it does show some lack of trust if you think it that way.

But, still, I can't say I should advocate the other action that should show trust. Because it meant the proper course is for Homura to choose dying, believing that her job is done and trusting that Madokami will take care of herself.

Somehow I can't imagine Homura ever doing that.
And I don't think its the correct action in this case. But, I do admit that this position is debatable.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

The reason I can't take her evil act as face value is that she knows Madoka will eventually become her enemy for what she's done. It makes little sense for her to be truly overjoyed knowing that imo.

The Joker is overjoyed at having an epic rivalry with the great Batman.

Homura is overjoyed at having an epic rivalry with the great Madoka.

Homura has had many a bad day, and I recall what The Joker said about what one bad day can do to a person...

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Homura is overjoyed at having an epic rivalry with the great Madoka.

Well I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. I bet she does enjoy messing with Sayaka though. lol

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Well I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

You want a person as your lover, but that's going nowhere because you've been friendzoned (which Madoka kinda did to Homura in Episode 12 )

So what's the next closest relationship you can have with the object of your affection? All-encompassing rivalry.

Keep in mind that it's a "safe" rivalry. Homura knows that Madoka would never kill her, and Homura certainly knows that she would never kill Madoka. So Homura and Madoka are now locked in an endless struggle, endlessly tied together.

Madoka must dance with the Devil in the pale moonlight...

[AuraTwilight]

Your conclusion here is basically because....

1) Clearly, you like the idea.

2) A little bit of Madoka dialogue from Episode 12. Which could simply be a case of a character exaggerating or using hyperbole or heck, even just speaking in broad generalities for the sake of convenience.

What's easier to believe - That Madoka engaged in some exaggeration/hyperbole in Episode 12, or that a genuinely omniscient being somehow managed to be taken by surprise and stripped of power that this being desired to maintain? The former is, at worst, improbable. The latter is impossible.

"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." - Arthur Conan Doyle

So it's up to you - You can say that she was omniscient, but that she wanted Homura to do this. Or you must admit that she's not omniscient.


Well, you could totally disregard the movie, but Gen did write it, and some reports are that he likes the idea of Homura and Madoka as oppositional forces.

Well, it's more 1) I concluded she was omniscient and 2) I liked it.

She can see all universes that ever were and ever will be, and she can observes the lives, witches, and falls of all Magical Girls. Even if she's not absolute in her omniscience, it's total enough that she should've been able to intercept this entire situation in some manner. Hyperbole doesn't solve the issue because a lot of Madoka's comments were a matter of yes/no with not a lot of room for degree. Does she see all possible universes or not? It's a binary statement. If Madoka is incorrect, she was either completely ignorant or lying, both of which clash with the scene much too utterly.

That Madoka could be tricked by a couple mortals operating in linear time, one of them a non-magical alien, is a plot hole. If nothing else, it breaks my suspension of disbelief and smacks of retcon.

Also, I don't particularly care what Gen thinks. Death of the Author is a thing.

You don't need to use even that. All you need to use is exaggeration/hyperbole.

But you could use "Madoka overestimated herself", I suppose.

A human mind would likely be left in complete awe and wonder of the added knowledge necessary to know about multiple timelines, and every magical girl that ever lived. That alone is a lot of knowledge. In the heat of the moment, it's possible for Madoka to overestimate what this all means. Or, again, knowingly exaggerate it.

Fair enough. But Madoka up until this episode has lowballed her capabilities, if anything. Contracting alleviates this somewhat, especially her final one, but she's always been humble by nature and I don't see her ascension really changing that. To me, she's either accurate, or underselling herself.

As for the Magus comparison...that could be true, but it doesn't get around the issue that the entire Rebellion situation falls within the purview of her knowledge. I mean, hell, if anything I'd imagine Homura has extra special priority in her attentions.

Of course it's also kind of weird that Madoka forgets things in the dream world but Nagisa and Sayaka don't? But I personally chalk that up to Homura's focus being so wrapped up in Madoka that she got hit by the worst of the mental trappings.

On the subject of omniscience:

I find an omniscient person to be a nonsensical idea in and of itself.

Godika is more of a thing than a person. She's a manifestation of Madoka's self and will, but she doesn't think. She merely acts in accordance with her nature.

Indeed, which just opens up more issues, to me. Madoka is a sentient law of metaphysics. She is an omnipresent axiom of how reality presently functions, as fundamental to existence as gravity or time. How in the hell did Kyubey capture her in any sort of meaningful way? At best he would've caught like...an aspect of her, or something.

I mean, hell, wouldn't capturing a trans-temporal entity that prevents her from doing necessary actions across time, like...change history and negate the entire event that captured her, even? Capture Madoka > Snap back to Witch World > Madoka is never Caught > Snap back to Wraith World > Capture Madoka...

Nevermind that Kyubey did so using technology that, up to this point in the series, could facilitate magic but not meaningfully control it. Diabolus Ex Machina at its finest.

That makes the most sense to me. Why would Madoka's wish make her omniscient? She doesn't need to be in order to fulfill her own wish. All she needs to have is complete knowledge about every magical girl that ever lived. That is a lot of knowledge, but it's not everything. It has no bearing on loads of things. It'll obviously have no bearing on anything "male-only".

Still, Homura's a Magical Girl; Madoka should still be omniscient for the purposes of the movie, so it's an entirely pedantic point of contention. If she knows everything about every magical girl that ever lived, that should include stuff like "Homura is a trap meant to capture Madoka thanks to Kyubey."

Re:Homura and Madoka's dream world conversations about Madoka's motivations and true feelings:

Homura. Bro. You're in a dream world designed to appeal to you on every facet, even in its imperfections in that they validate your worldview and life choices. It is literally impossible to trust anything you experience in there, ever. Especially since the Madoka speaking to you is, at best, the real deal that is brainwashed as part of your scenario.

Homura. Stahp. Go home, you're drunk. Empiricism fail. Your confirmation bias. Stop.

[Hagoshod]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

The ending is not grimdark, lol. I have no idea why people just buy into stuff like "Homura and Madoka can never reconcile" or some other such finalizing shit. The point of the movie is to set up a new storyline for potential future seasons of material. It's not meant to contradict the original material. However the continuation might end up being (and Shaft must certainly want to be making one, their current readiness notwithstanding), there is no present reason to expect it to be any 'darker' than the original series.

It still involves taking the (relatively) happy ending from the TV show and twisting it into something infinitely less happy.

Trust me. As the guy who wrote this, I know a thing or two about grimdark.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Why would Madoka's wish make her omniscient?

Because her wish was literally "I Wanna Be the Guy who saves every magical girl who has ever existed and will exist in every point in time in every possible universe from being overtaken by despair and becoming Witches." She kind of needs to be in multiple places at once in order to accomplish that.

[Sageblink]

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

It still involves taking the (relatively) happy ending from the TV show and twisting it into something infinitely less happy.

Trust me. As the guy who wrote this, I know a thing or two about grimdark.


Because her wish was literally "I Wanna Be the Guy who saves every magical girl who has ever existed and will exist in every point in time in every possible universe from being overtaken by despair and becoming Witches." She kind of needs to be in multiple places at once in order to accomplish that.

Well, that's Omnipresence.
Omniscience doesn't make you be at several places in the same time. It just makes you know everything...

[Hagoshod]

But being omnipresent would automatically make you omniscient.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Homura. Bro. You're in a dream world designed to appeal to you on every facet, even in its imperfections in that they validate your worldview and life choices. It is literally impossible to trust anything you experience in there, ever. Especially since the Madoka speaking to you is, at best, the real deal that is brainwashed as part of your scenario.

Sayaka's unaffected by the barrier, and she's just a dead magical girl. It's pretty much impossible that Madoka, who is god-like, would get brainwashed by it. Imo Madoka is affected because, subconsciously, she doesn't really want to leave the ones she loves behind, which validates what she tells Homura. Madoka chose to become "god" because she had to. That doesn't mean she has to like it.