High School DxD NEW - Episode 6 Discussion / Poll

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by kukuru

WTF did you read, balance breaker changes everything.

Yes, but the original argument was to compare BG vs DD in a one-on-one. As Issei hasn't attained Balance Breaker in the anime, I'm ignoring it for both. Especially as its exact effect is too dependent on the wielders, so not much can be said. Unlike the basic powers.

Who said anything about running away.

You. You're the one who boasted that Boost was invincible because you could just use it to run away, making DD unusable. (See what I did there?)

You're the one who insist that somehow the luxury of an ambush can only come from a divine dividing users.

Not at all. I'm saying that the one who ambushes the other has a huge advantage. Saying BG + ambush > DD is true, but it doesn't mean that BG > DD. I'm also saying that laying in ambush with BG is harder than with DD because even if it's just waiting, being Boosted is tiring, while a DD user can (and has to) wait until the last moment to use his power. An ambush with BG therefore requires much more intelligence than one with DD.

"If you're a boasted user, you can't hit first, that's unfair, but, but if you're a dividing user, it's perfectly fair" Rubbish.

And when did I ever say that?

Though I did point out that a DD user is ready to go in an instant. One hit and it's over. A BG user needs time to get to the point where he can one-shot people.

The strongest power is to oneshot, obviously the best type of one shot is a snipe. You only brought up that for some un-explained reason the divine dividing user won't be sniped, so I brought up movement/running.

I never said that. I said that whether BG or DD, a snipe would get either just as easily. It doesn't show either's superiority.

And again since you are open to spoiler I can completely break your argument apart by

Spoiler for Sacred gear:

Sacred gears evolve to their users needs and desires, thus if boasted gear user is melee, he would become one-punch man. If he was a sniper his powers would evolve another way like boasted sight boasted senses, boasted accruacy, etc . If he was thief type he would evolve into boasted agility boasted mind, etc

The one example is Issei during the Excalibur duel, lost because he didn't know how much to boast before he could win. Right after that DDrag announced that boasted gear would tell him when he has doubled enough to defeat his opponent.

Thus your whole base power argument is fundamentally flawed because the there is no such thing as a base power when it comes to sacred gear users in a fight.

Your scenario can not happen. Ever. The user themselves are one with their sacred gear powers. you can not split them apart and analyze them individually.

Issei will be Issei. Vali will be Vali.

Spoiler for answer:

Which makes your argument even dumber. Issei's not a sniper, he's not a smart guy. He's a straight puncher. Vali won't need to chase him down, Issei will come to him.

[Dengar]

Kukuru, just let it go. Obviously every advantage that the white dragon has is par for the course, but every advantage the red dragon has is cheating. The White Dragon is just that overpowered and awesome. Lets just leave it at that.

[Anh_Minh]

And what advantages are you talking about? All I've discussed is the way their powers work. You guys want to give Issei a way to win before Vali uses his power. Sure, Issei could get a sniper rifle, learn to use it, and shoot Vali in front of his favorite restaurant. What does that have to do with BG? Or Vali could carry the idiot ball, let Issei boost himself into an unstoppable powerhouse, and maybe even let him get the first blow in. (Come to think of it, it's not entirely unlikely...) But again, it doesn't show the superiority of BG.

It's that simple: if for every Boost, Issei is hit with a Divide, Issei's power will stagnate, while Vali's will increase. Even if Issei's only hit once every few Boosts, his power will increase, but not as much as Vali's. If there was a mechanic that made both powers stagnate, or the result dependent on base stats, I'd concede that the powers were equals. That just isn't the case.

That's not to say DD is the best at everything. For group battles, gift makes BG more flexible than DD. And more generally, DD isn't suited to fighting lots of relatively weak opponents, while BG doesn't have a particular problem with it.

But with all the qualifiers I've added (1-on-1, fair fight), DD's better.

[Dengar]

No need to go into all that! I acknowledge your victory, you win. The white dragon is completely awesome and overpowered and Issei can't win without cheating.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And what advantages are you talking about? All I've discussed is the way their powers work. You guys want to give Issei a way to win before Vali uses his power. Sure, Issei could get a sniper rifle, learn to use it, and shoot Vali in front of his favorite restaurant. What does that have to do with BG? Or Vali could carry the idiot ball, let Issei boost himself into an unstoppable powerhouse, and maybe even let him get the first blow in. (Come to think of it, it's not entirely unlikely...) But again, it doesn't show the superiority of BG.

It's that simple: if for every Boost, Issei is hit with a Divide, Issei's power will stagnate, while Vali's will increase. Even if Issei's only hit once every few Boosts, his power will increase, but not as much as Vali's. If there was a mechanic that made both powers stagnate, or the result dependent on base stats, I'd concede that the powers were equals. That just isn't the case.

That's not to say DD is the best at everything. For group battles, gift makes BG more flexible than DD. And more generally, DD isn't suited to fighting lots of relatively weak opponents, while BG doesn't have a particular problem with it.

But with all the qualifiers I've added (1-on-1, fair fight), DD's better.

Actually therre is a completely logical way to defeat the white Dragon.
(this is non - spoiler btw)
Issei just needs to give him more power on purpose until the white Dragon's host can no longer take it.
(We have seen it with issei when he bosted beyond his capabilities).
The other variant to defeat him is ust: don't let him touch you

[huynhlan]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Actually therre is a completely logical way to defeat the white Dragon.
(this is non - spoiler btw)
Issei just needs to give him more power on purpose until the white Dragon's host can no longer take it.
(We have seen it with issei when he bosted beyond his capabilities).
The other variant to defeat him is ust: don't let him touch you

Wait wouldn't issei have to know how many boost is need in order for that to happen? Also I doubt it would work unless vali stand there like an idiot and wait for issei to boost enough to use gift to overload him.
Not letting the other person touch you in a fight is hard unless you run around like an idiot.

Anh Minh thinking is very logical, if you ask any common person who haven't read the novel, they too would mostly think that DD is better than BG.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Actually therre is a completely logical way to defeat the white Dragon.
(this is non - spoiler btw)
Issei just needs to give him more power on purpose until the white Dragon's host can no longer take it.
(We have seen it with issei when he bosted beyond his capabilities).
The other variant to defeat him is ust: don't let him touch you

For that to happen in one hit, Issei would need to boost himself to twice Vali's capacity. He'd burst before that.

But if he does it progressively, at some point Vali will have enough power to crush Issei with his pinky. He can just do that instead of waiting.

Spoiler for Balance Breaker:

Yes, I know, Balance Breaker means you don't have that delay thing. But as I said, I'm comparing powers without Balance Breaker.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by huynhlan

if you ask any common person who haven't read the novel, they too would mostly think that DD is better than BG.

How rude, I haven't read the novel either, you know?

[huynhlan]

Originally Posted by Dengar

How rude, I haven't read the novel either, you know?

Sorry if it's sounded rude but I did said "mostly think" though meaning the majority of people, I didn't said "everyone would definitely think " so now did I?

[Dengar]

It still felt kind of generalizing to me, but I understand that wasn't the intent.

Personally I'm reserving my judgment for when I actually see them fight properly. The descriptions of both abilities are still quite vague after all.

Plus I'm not overestimating a power that requires physical contact to work.

[Anh_Minh]

We'll never see them fight with just basic power, since Vali already has Balance Breaker. At best we'll see Balance Breaker vs Balance Breaker. And then, there's the difference in base stats problem.

[Dengar]

I don't even understand the significance of all that but k.