Muv-Luv Franchise - Military Tactics, History, & Geo-Politics

[Silvance]

They should be able to penetrate it, but the point is that mankind should take advantage of the fact that the laser class doesn't shoot whenever their own kind is on the line of fire, and yes, even if it's the dead ones. D:

I guess the TSF would look lame if they ever attempt such thing. lol.

Then again, that won't save them much from the other BETA strains. ('(00)')

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by Silvance

They should be able to penetrate it, but the point is that mankind should take advantage of the fact that the laser class doesn't shoot whenever their own kind is on the line of fire, and yes, even if it's the dead ones. D:

I guess the TSF would look lame if they ever attempt such thing. lol.

Then again, that won't save them much from the other BETA strains. ('(00)')

This was mentioned in /m/ some threads back, where we had everything from remote controlled BETA bombs to BETA cyborgs etc. The thing is, with a Superior controlling them, the lasers can shoot through their own.

I read somewhere that it was tried before, using parts of the destroyer class shell, and after 16 minutes, the laser class shot through them. It was never tried again.

[SolarAquarion]

Originally Posted by grevierr

Tech level. You need Very Big Scary Mirrors to build Big Scary Mirrors. And you need lots of mirrors in a Very Scary Array to produce an "Earth Shaking Kaboom" beam. Even now on earth there is only one institution capable of production small space mirrors strong enough for a few mega joules.

We could use this system of reflecting mirrors which is the Solar Array Powered Laser aka the Serious Ass Powerful Laser, supported at various points by the VSA, or the Very Scary Array, the the BDA, or Big Damn Array, and the VDA, or Very Dangerous Array. Giving humanity a wave motion cannon.

[Myssa Rei]

Here's another question from a non-game player: Are there any airborne varieties of BETA? If this was answered earlier in the thread, then sorry about it. ^^

[Silvance]

No. No flying BETA yet and I hope such abomination isn't made.

[Myssa Rei]

Really? Well that's a surprise now, as one would expect a nigh-unstoppable antagonistic species like the BETA to have covered all the bases -- both the Tyranids from 40k and the Zerg from Starcraft had fliers to make up for such shortcomings.

Then again, I suppose when we don't look at this as a war, and instead as a resource-gathering operation that hit an unexpected snag, then I suppose fliers don't make much sense, as I have the impression that all the BETA we're seeing are more or less worker/collector organisms that are also hard to kill.

[SolarAquarion]

Originally Posted by Silvance

No. No flying BETA yet and I hope such abomination isn't made.

BETAs don't need to fly, they are enough of a abomination on the ground.

[Silvance]

Originally Posted by Xezexal

BETAs don't need to fly, they are enough of a abomination on the ground.

I know, right? Just imagining a flying type that can shoot lasers gives me the chills... Argh... the horror...

[Angrypokstick]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Really? Well that's a surprise now, as one would expect a nigh-unstoppable antagonistic species like the BETA to have covered all the bases -- both the Tyranids from 40k and the Zerg from Starcraft had fliers to make up for such shortcomings.

Then again, I suppose when we don't look at this as a war, and instead as a resource-gathering operation that hit an unexpected snag, then I suppose fliers don't make much sense, as I have the impression that all the BETA we're seeing are more or less worker/collector organisms that are also hard to kill.

And really thats all it is. The BETAs are just autonomous mining bio-machines and not really meant for war. Its probably one of the few reasons humanity have even lasted for so long. The BETA only seeks to harvest earth's resources and humanity barely registers on their threat meter and are only treated as obstacles to be removed so a hive can expand its mining operations.

[LystAP]

Originally Posted by Silvance

I know, right? Just imagining a flying type that can shoot lasers gives me the chills... Argh... the horror...

As stated before, the BETA appear mostly reactive; given the wide range of worlds they operate in, they probably have plans for a flying breed somewhere in their Hives. But as they're doing just fine without any, there's no reason at the moment for them to make any flyers.

[Hypernova]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

Its way safer behind a mountain or under a trench... than in space .. unless you use the moon as cover... its the lasers man....

But the charts already show that while their lasers are powerful enough to reach orbit they don't attack there, indicating a range limit on their sensors.

Originally Posted by Xezexal

We could use this system of reflecting mirrors which is the Solar Array Powered Laser aka the Serious Ass Powerful Laser, supported at various points by the VSA, or the Very Scary Array, the the BDA, or Big Damn Array, and the VDA, or Very Dangerous Array. Giving humanity a wave motion cannon.

Might as well rent a few Assault Vectors while you're at it.

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by Hypernova

But the charts already show that while their lasers are powerful enough to reach orbit they don't attack there, indicating a range limit on their sensors.



Might as well rent a few Assault Vectors while you're at it.

There is nothing a FULLY OPERATIONAL BATTLESTATION cannot do that a Assault vector can. Since they are made with outside tech though, its impossible for the MLA universe as is.

BUN BUN, or SHIVA 9, on the other hand, is quite possible since the XG-70 is about the same mass.... wait...

XG-70d:
A FULLY OPERATIONAL LAND BATTLESHIP with twin Over The Horizon railguns which fires BUS SIZED slugs, 8 hardpoints for 120mm rapid fire electromagnetic railguns firing 800 shells per min, 12 x 36mm gattling guns, VLS missile launch systems with lots (50+ ) of S11 tipped Missiles for Macross Missile Massacre, weapon racks for a PLATOON of TSFs, and lastly, High energy CHARGED MEGA PARTICLE CANNON... and covered by an flesh shredding nuclear impenetrable energy shield which can be manipulated around objects...

Do we actually need outside tech...?

[touge-n00b]

Originally Posted by grevierr

There is nothing a FULLY OPERATIONAL BATTLESTATION cannot do that a Assault vector can. Since they are made with outside tech though, its impossible for the MLA universe as is.

BUN BUN, or SHIVA 9, on the other hand, is quite possible since the XG-70 is about the same mass.... wait...

XG-70d:
A FULLY OPERATIONAL LAND BATTLESHIP with twin Over The Horizon railguns which fires BUS SIZED slugs, 8 hardpoints for 120mm rapid fire electromagnetic railguns firing 800 shells per min, 12 x 36mm gattling guns, VLS missile launch systems with lots (50+ ) of S11 tipped Missiles for Macross Missile Massacre, weapon racks for a PLATOON of TSFs, and lastly, High energy CHARGED MEGA PARTICLE CANNON... and covered by an flesh shredding nuclear impenetrable energy shield which can be manipulated around objects...

Do we actually need outside tech...?

Correct me if I'm wrong but...

Spoiler for XG-70s need...:

As of 2001, doesn't the Susanoo require a 00-Unit? And as of the end of Alternative, isn't the one 00-Unit dead? I'm not familiar with the stories that happened after MLA so if this was previously explained I apologize

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by touge-n00b

Correct me if I'm wrong but...

Spoiler for XG-70s need...:

As of 2001, doesn't the Susanoo require a 00-Unit? And as of the end of Alternative, isn't the one 00-Unit dead? I'm not familiar with the stories that happened after MLA so if this was previous explained I apologize

Yes, which is reproducible. There is no info for post MLA, except that they are able to take on a Hive some years later.

And with time to develop on it, I don't see why something can't be produced to overcome the problem now that the tech is developed.

[touge-n00b]

Originally Posted by grevierr

Yes, which is reproducible. There is no info for post MLA, except that they are able to take on a Hive some years later.

And with time to develop on it, I don't see why something can't be produced to overcome the problem now that the tech is developed.

Spoiler for MLA Spoiler (I'm not sure a spoiler-tag is necessaey but whatever lo)l:

Is it really that easy to get another 00-Unit? I could have sworn Yuuko said that Sumika was a special case because they had never found a living candidate quite like her before. IIRC, the 00-Unit had to be constructed from a living being without a traditional carbon-based body. And Sumika was the only brain-and-spinal cord found "alive" ever. Like I said, I could have forgotten, but I'm pretty sure Yuuko stated that Sumika was a special case.

But yeah, I guess given time, an automatic solution to the Rutherford-Field problem could be found, but from the tone of the game it sounded like Humanity was FAR off, thus their quest for a 00-Unit.

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by touge-n00b

Spoiler for MLA Spoiler (I'm not sure a spoiler-tag is necessaey but whatever lo)l:

Is it really that easy to get another 00-Unit? I could have sworn Yuuko said that Sumika was a special case because they had never found a living candidate quite like her before. IIRC, the 00-Unit had to be constructed from a living being without a traditional carbon-based body. And Sumika was the only brain-and-spinal cord found "alive" ever. Like I said, I could have forgotten, but I'm pretty sure Yuuko stated that Sumika was a special case.

But yeah, I guess given time, an automatic solution to the Rutherford-Field problem could be found, but from the tone of the game it sounded like Humanity was FAR off, thus their quest for a 00-Unit.

Spoiler for MLA:

Hmm.. special in that she is still living without a body, and has lesser ethical problems with destroying it to create a 00 unit. She still blames herself for 'killing' a living being, as shown when she gave Shirogane the choice to take revenge twice.
But now that it is successful, a Personality which comes from a normal body would make a more stable 00 unit.

The main issue is that the 00 unit requires an Stab reactor core to survive, to change the artificial coolent (OCD or something) which flows in the body. So first a hive must be taken intact, then comes the unit. Then America has to cough up another XG-70, or a mass production version.

This is more my understanding of the issue though, since I can't be sure if the fact that Sumika can bend the laws of space and time even plays a part in the selection process.

[Tk3997]

Originally Posted by Hypernova

But the charts already show that while their lasers are powerful enough to reach orbit they don't attack there, indicating a range limit on their sensors.

What? The only number I've ever seen is 100km for the larger laser class and that's not 'orbit' under any sane definition. Unless the 100km thing was targeting range, but if that's true that the actual range of the beam is rather irrelevant.

[DoomRavager]

Originally Posted by touge-n00b

Spoiler for MLA Spoiler (I'm not sure a spoiler-tag is necessaey but whatever lo)l:

Is it really that easy to get another 00-Unit? I could have sworn Yuuko said that Sumika was a special case because they had never found a living candidate quite like her before. IIRC, the 00-Unit had to be constructed from a living being without a traditional carbon-based body. And Sumika was the only brain-and-spinal cord found "alive" ever. Like I said, I could have forgotten, but I'm pretty sure Yuuko stated that Sumika was a special case.

But yeah, I guess given time, an automatic solution to the Rutherford-Field problem could be found, but from the tone of the game it sounded like Humanity was FAR off, thus their quest for a 00-Unit.

I believe I remember that

Spoiler for 00 Unit stuff:

all of A-01 were candidates to be 00 Units, but Sumika was prime material because she had had previous close contact with the BETA, being hooked up to their computer equivalents for ages, so she might be able to have better understanding of how their thoughts work and thus communicate better. It had nothing to do with being "constructed from a living being without a traditional carbon based body", the idea was to transfer a personality that was "human" into a completely cybernetic platform to communicate with the BETA, so a person that has previously been in communication of sorts would be ideal.

[Tk3997]

Originally Posted by Angrypokstick

More info on lasers.

Spoiler:

[IMG] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]

Overall his bit about mirrors is functionality correct, but I have to question that energy calc.

First off it assumes a meter thickness of pure titanium which given how lightly TSF are supposed to be built seems far too much to me. Most of the internal volume of a TSF is probably going to be air just like most of the volume of a jet or tank is voids. How TSF are built internally isn't really clear from what I've seen, but I'd assume a skeletal frame with systems hung off it. Based off that the skin itself need not be that thick at all and most indications are it isn't. I'd honestly be surprised if the plating is more then say 100mm thick. So say 100 mm for front and black plate, plus we'll toss in say 200 for random crap inside. I think that still might be too high, but even then it's less then half what he's assuming. I also question the use of titanium itself it's not exactly a common metal to start with and in Muv-Luv many of the large deposits have been overrun. Steel and Aluminum seem more likely and one might also expect significant use of composites. All of these are less durable to extreme heat then Titanium.

So the front and back combined is probably less then a foot, the shot is going through the cockpit area which is mostly air, and most of the internal bits in that area are likely rather lightly built. I personally think something like 500mm of metal penetration is being performed here at most, so we can already probably slice that estimate roughly in half. Still let's assume for a minute the plating is WAY thicker then I'm thinking and it did burn through a meter. I'm still not quite sure where he's getting his energy levels from as my own digging showed that even going with his assumption of a 5cm wide one meter long titanium cylinder produced a mass of about 8.83 kilograms. Raising this to melting temperature requires about 7.8 megajoules of energy plus 3.7 for the heat of fusion for a total of total of about 11.5 megajoules. That's the number that really matters as that's the energy that goes into the target, using watts can easily get HIGHLY misleading. For instance we can produce a "terawatt" laser right now... for like a picosecond so the actual energy involved isn't terajoules in the slightest.

That's still a pretty nasty laser cannon as a main gun round from an MBT for instance is about five megajoules so you're getting twice that and change. It's not however so outrageous that specialized armor might not be able to resist it. Metal would be a poor choice, but there are other options that could provide a good hit resistance at MBT thicknesses. This is rather supported by the fact that heat shields on diver pods for instance apparently provide some protection. That's reasonable assuming they're fairly thick and made of a material like a ceramics with better heat resistance. If we use my own feeling of like half the thickness drilled and weaker material like aluminum we get something only a bit more potent then an MBT round. Nasty and certainly by all indications rightly deadly to machines that can't even resist autocannon fire, but hardly impossible to armor against. It then brings up the obvious question though of why tanks are such horrible ideas.

[Hypernova]

Originally Posted by Tk3997

What? The only number I've ever seen is 100km for the larger laser class and that's not 'orbit' under any sane definition. Unless the 100km thing was targeting range, but if that's true that the actual range of the beam is rather irrelevant.

My mistake, I was thinking of just space altitude definition.

Now about the armor, materials with good anti laser property like ablative heat tiles would have poor ballistic properties. Given all the planned back stabbing going around they probably don't want to give up anti ballistic armor even though they are clearly not what you need in a fight against BETAs. These guys spend so much effort on what to do to each other after the crisis that they forget that they have to survive it first.