Madoka Magica - Episodes 11 & 12 Discussion/Poll - Final Episodes!

[omimon]

Originally Posted by Attoney

Of course they were, didn't you learn that from your history classes?

If Anne Frank was a MG shouldn't she be able to kick some Nazi ass?

[RedWing]

Madoka becomes God in almost every sense of the word. Still doesn't explain what forced MGs to fight, but I guess we can let this pass. I was kinda hoping for a downer ending, but the given one is more than satisfactory. I was very happy they didn't use the Madoka becomes a MG without contracting cop-out, that many were suggesting and actually decided to wrap things up properly within the rules they have set out. Really impressive how they managed to shoot down many of the plot holes other potential conclusions would have had. 10/10 for effort, 9/10 for catering too much to the yuri crowd and the actual execution wasn't as flash as I'd have hoped since they've had an age to work on it. Was realllly worried I would be disappointed by the finale but it's impossible to be, they really came through.

[Sovran]

Originally Posted by atua

The new "grief seeds" that drop from demons can be used to cleanse a soul gem.

Spoiler for Soul Gem 2:

Somehow I got the impression that those weren't "new grief seeds" that cleanse a soul gem, but the soul gem itself gets rid of the contamination and forms those new seeds. That's just my imagination going wild though ^_^

[pikachuwei]

Originally Posted by ImperialX

Alright, compiled all the questions I've seen in this thread and on /a/ and trying to answer them with another one of my trademark blog posts.

http://imperialx.wordpress.com/2011/...xplain-itself/

Hopefully this will clear things up for many of you. ^^

thanks ^.^

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Sovran

Somehow I got the impression that those weren't "new grief seeds" that cleanse a soul gem, but the soul gem itself gets rid of the contamination and forms those new seeds. That's just my imagination going wild though ^_^

It would appear that way. Either that or Homura just likes to draw intricate patterns of black rocks around her soul gem. Oh, and then feed those black rocks to QB. Must be a magical girl thing.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by MrTerrorist

Wait.... Cleopatra, Joan of Arc, Queen Himiko and Anne Frank were Magical girls!?
Can somebody explain this to me? I'm confused.

Cleopetra wished that she could be the consort of the most powerful man in the world. But there are two powerful men - Mark Anthony and Caesar. For only one of them to exist, both fought over her.

Joan of Arc wished for guidance to lead the French to victory in the 100 years war. Well, she was guided to the stake and burned, ironically as a witch which she would have become (she probably still had hope that Charles VII would save her by crafting her answer of god's grace).

Queen Himiko probably wished to rule amongst her people seeing that men as leaders are the cause of warfare. Well, she was killed by men.

Anne Frank probably wish for the Jews to be able to go home. They did - they got Israel, albeit surrounded by all sides by Arabs who swore to kill them all.

So much for granting wishes. If Mami's wish can be put on this case, be careful what you wish for :

[Nikkan]

Loved the ending. The last 10 seconds after the credits puzzled me however, when Homura got black witch-like wings. And the setting too, desert with nothing but sand, where were she?

[guuchan]

Rewatched the episodes again after calming down (was way too hyped when watching the livestream). In the end, this show should still be called Puella Magi Homura Magica after all, or Saishuu Heiki Homura, a.k.a. Saihomu:



I mean, Both OP&ED are dedicated to her. Madoka might have turned into a goddess or even created a new religion, but Homura is our ultimate savior. Thanks to her going through all that, Madoka got the power to become a goddess; thanks to her continuous fighting, humanity moves on. Madoka's act is a one-time thing; Homura carries the burden and keeps going. Oh Homura, you almost made me fall for you with that Unlimited Bazooka Works of yours, but sorry, my love of this show is still Mami. Mami, your Unlimited Gun Works will continue in my memory forever.

Well, Madoka, I do give you credits for this though:

「だって魔法少女はさ、夢と希望を叶えるんだから」

"Because Mahou Shoujo can make dreams and hopes come true"

Thank you, Madoka, for reminding us that we are watching a Mahou Shoujo show.

Originally Posted by AvatarST

I didn't really understand why Sayaka went and essentially killed herself. According to the subs Mami said that she was "led astray by her denial of change", and Kyoko complains that she was "throwing it all away for the sake of that guy". But what does killing herself have to do with her wish being realized? And there was that scene with Madoka and her talking about how that future would disappear...

Can anyone try and explain it? That bit confused me.

I have no idea where the "denial of change" came from. What Mami said was:

「円環の理に導かれて」

"Led by the rule of circle"

The "rule of circle" there is a literal translation. It's what Mami calls Madoka's new system: MGs got their wishes granted and end up in despair, then the moment they are about to turn into witches, Madoka kicks in and erases it.

[Silverwyrm]

well I understand it all simple enough but....whats up with homura's creepy witch wings >.>

[elvibez]

This was definitely a beautiful series, I almost burst into tears when Madoka's brother was drawing her picture in the sand.

[velderia]

Weird ending but god damn, nice one. Speechless. 10/10 Shaft really outdid themselves.

[Sol Falling]

Well now, how's about that ending eh?

lol, I gotta admit--my first run through these two episodes, I was underwhelmed, but skipping through the ending scenes again I think I've isolated the particular aspects which don't really work for me. Frankly, it looks like MadoHomu just doesn't do it for me. Everything else--the aftermath scenes, the buildup scenes, of farewell and reminiscence with the other girls and Madoka's family--is just so poignant upon rewatch that it can bring tears to my eyes--but its just the MadoHomu scenes alone which come off as grossly over-saccharine.

But damn, that MadoHomu separation scene. I mean, wut? Bittersweet? This is the feared and hated Urobochi Gen I've been hearing about? I've hardly seen anything nearly so sappy, lol.

Aside from those particular elements of the execution, though, the ending played out I guess about 90% like I expected it to, and left us with approximately zero plotholes in my opinion, so it's not like I think there's anything wrong with it. I dunno how much I can say it has retained a 'masterpiece' status for me now to the extent that I used to plan to try to pass it on to non-anime enthusiast people.

Not to go too far to state the obvious (if anyone else feels this way), but given a question from that blog post Guardian Enzo linked to (i.e. What was Urobochi trying to say with this story), I'd like to contribute that from my perspective this story's moral is pretty clearly that quote which was used for episode 11's episode 12 preview: "If someone says it's wrong to hope, I'd tell them that they're wrong every time". I.e. it's a pretty basic, fundamentally positive message (which I support wholeheartedly) which gains its greatest strength in narrative via juxtaposition against despair and negativity. The more real and believable that despair/negativity, the more powerful that message is. So, I mean, given that Madoka was a Mahou Shoujo anime, I never really doubted (at all) that we'd get our happy ending here. At the same time though, given that this was Urobochi, even if everything I've ever heard about him has been second-hand information, I kinda expected the conclusion to be a bit more gritty. When the only traces of 'bitterness' we can see left at all are Homura's strangled cries of "Madoka!", then I guess it's a problem if you can't get into their relationship 'cause there's otherwise not much emotional impact.

[MrTerrorist]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Cleopetra wished that she could be the consort of the most powerful man in the world. But there are two powerful men - Mark Anthony and Caesar. For only one of them to exist, both fought over her.

Joan of Arc wished for guidance to lead the French to victory in the 100 years war. Well, she was guided to the stake and burned, ironically as a witch which she would have become (she probably still had hope that Charles VII would save her by crafting her answer of god's grace).

Queen Himiko probably wished to rule amongst her people seeing that men as leaders are the cause of warfare. Well, she was killed by men.

Anne Frank probably wish for the Jews to be able to go home. They did - they got Israel, albeit surrounded by all sides by Arabs who swore to kill them all.

My God that's bittersweet.

[zero7090]

hmm just as expected, i wasnt wrong when wonder why dont madoka wish witch no longer exist.

Originally Posted by zero7090

so what will happen if madoka wish QB and witches never existed in the first place? Harem end?

yet ppl said i am stupid cause QB will never grant that wish .___.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by ImperialX

Alright, compiled all the questions I've seen in this thread and on /a/ and trying to answer them with another one of my trademark blog posts.

http://imperialx.wordpress.com/2011/...xplain-itself/

Hopefully this will clear things up for many of you. ^^

Yeah nice post, every should read this (but not limited to this) if they do not understand the ending

Second best anime ending that i ever saw (the first one was Higurashi Kai during that sequence after ED song).
I think the most beautiful about this ending is, it align the magical girls battle to all our world crises. A fight that will forever on, but no longer a hopeless battle. QB also got an ending where the system prevent him from being a a** like he once been, and turned out to be what he should have been, a magical girl mascot...



I don't think i will see such a good anime sometime soon in the future. Most importantly, Madoka showed that originality is its own strength and anime industry does not need to all head down the adaptation road

[elvibez]

It was pretty genius how Madoka wished to erase all witches, with HER OWN HANDS.

If she hadn't added that last part, the girls who became puella magi could have been removed from existence too, but this way she could save the girls.

SHAFT is truly incredible.

[mizou]

If the Grief Seed is corrupted, magical girl dead ? or juste return normal
I tought that they dead, because of what that happen to sayaka ?

[Riou17]

I am left speechless after I watched the ending. I have to watch it again to see if I like it or not. Anyway, so under Madoka's law or system, magical girls are still present except there won't be anymore bad side effects from being despaired. They'll just be taken away by Madoka. Compared to Kyubey's system, this is a better than manifesting into something the magical girls are against. So in a way, Madoka wishes what magical girls should be or how she portrays or believe magical girls to be, protector and fighter of justice and peace.

As for the last scene in the end, it looks like Madoka's system of Walpurgis Night. Homura again fighting the big bad boss, except this time Madoka is with her.

[*Osaka*Fan*]

I slept on it and here's my abbreviated thoughts (I'm almost leaving for Anime Boston )

Ep 11 was perfect. A great follow-up to 10. Didn't see the whole Incubator history thing coming and QB's line "Without us, you'd still be cavemen" left my mouth wide open for 10 seconds. Excellent action (she's controlling a freakin' BUS!). Excellent drama, I came close to crying when Homerun's soul gem turned almost black, and that absolutely never happens.

Now...Episode 12.
The ending made sense in a lot of ways. Yes, Madoka needed to become a magical girl at some point. Yes, it makes sense for her to wish that way...I just felt that too much stuff was thrown at us the last minute, leaving kinda underwhelmed. But the show became popular by introducing a brand new level to the storyline out of nowhere, so it seems appropriate that it would end that way, in a big way. And I have no idea about the ending. It almost seems sequel-ish but I don't think I'd like that, things like this are best by themselves.

[Dawnstorm]

I had a split-personality experience watching that ending. I ejnoyed it. I thought it was the perfect ending. And yet I didn't buy it. Talk about being confused.

It took ImperialX's blog post (thanks for that), to figure out why:

Originally Posted by ImperialX's blog

It was shown in episode 11 that the ‘mud’ in the Soul Gem comes from despair and pain, so that means when Madoka removes this, all this despair and pain (which is normally harvested as energy by the Incubators) has to go somewhere else. That becomes shouldered by Madoka herself. Why else did this episode air on Good Friday?

That is very perceptive. I was pretty much aware of the christian references in the show (most obviously Kyouko, but also the Faust stuff). So the ending is woven into the very fabric of the story. It makes perfect sense. It's the perfect conclusion to the show.

Why am I left unsatisfied? I'm Austrian, the son of Catholic parents in a country with a Catholic majority, and I never bought that message. I just don't believe that you can shoulder other people's despair. The one quibble I have with the show, is pretty much also the reason I turned out to be an atheist, I suppose. I don't buy the central premise.

So, I was aware of that strain all along, but I tried to ignore it, to maximise my enjoyment of the show. What I find jarring is that, seen from my atheist perspective, Madoka has based an entire universe on denial, and the show wants me to accept that as a hopeful message.

So basically I think it's the perfect ending to a perfect show, and the quibbles I have with it are basic ideological differences. But the show is complex enough that I could talk about those differences in terms of the show. That is successful storytelling. A rare master piece. Very well done, team.