Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[grylsyjaeger]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

I don't even have any idea how the hell he ended up in Avalon or anything like that. Does anyone want to explain?

Both Saber and Shirou used the sheath as the gateway to Avalon at their final fight. Perhaps this has something to do with how Shirou went there after his death as being a former user of Avalon. It was inside his body - albeit dorment - for ten years so something might have rubbed off...

Regardless the Last Episode is pretty much the happy ending people wanted for the two. A bit far fetched in how it happens but I almost prefer the sad True End to Fate than the Last Episode. Really makes their parting a huge gut punch.

[Nevflinn]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

Archer couldn't "save" Saber. Fate Shirou did manage to "save" Saber. That alone probably changed his personality alot. If he had become the superhero he had wanted to be, he'd end up like Archer, a person stuck saving other people for all eternity. Chances are he wouldn't end up with Saber after his death. I don't even have any idea how the hell he ended up in Avalon or anything like that. Does anyone want to explain?

Before I say anything pointless, how do you think it changed him?

I've been thinking about that, too. The 'how' is very much open to interpretation, and I agree with fallschirmjager's assessments, but after deliberation I think it went like this:

1. Shirou lives out his dream as best he can, becomes Archer, and spends his life as a hero (strongly suggested by the presence of the Unlimited Blade Works and shattered cities). Presumably he is more content with his path than Archer was. It's strongly emphasised that while through his actions he has become something meaningful to many people, the person he was before was all but forgotten ("Even if your actions are meaningful, you yourself, all the way until the end, are worthless."), but if he's learned anything (i.e. the writers didn't contradict their aesops), then he has no regrets, is content with having done all he could, and faces his end peacefully. It's the only way he could have avoided becoming a counter guardian.

2. Saber, as opposed to taking her place in the Throne of Heroes (Avalon), waits in a state of limbo for an eternity/1600 years/a very very very very very long time. Merlin strongly dissuades this, preferring her to take an assured rest immediately rather than throw her soul away for someone who will likely never make it. But by doing so, she keeps a path open for whoever is worthy of the same place as hers to exist in the same domain.

Long story short, Shirou's life has to rival the entire Arthurian legend at the least.

It sounds like epic sequel potential if you ask me. And who here doesn't want to see Aeneas vs. Odysseus? That would just be epic.

Originally Posted by fallschirmjager

Regardless the Last Episode is pretty much the happy ending people wanted for the two. A bit far fetched in how it happens but I almost prefer the sad True End to Fate than the Last Episode. Really makes their parting a huge gut punch.

Both endings are fantastic for two different reasons. In retrospect, I'd have been really disappointed with Fate if any of its initial endings, Good or True, had Saber staying, because then I wouldn't have gotten the point. We wouldn't have seen Shirou's mature, optimistic summary to something which would have otherwise broken him, and we wouldn't have seen Saber content with all she could have done after the Battle of Camlann. Fate/Stay Night is at its strongest when it's about its namesake, the theme of fate, how it is both beyond our control and yet completely within it, and this is best exemplified with their departure. The only conclusion that is fitting with the true, intial end to Fate is The Last Episode.

I love The Last Episode simply because of how excellent a job it does as the epilogue to the entire series. How no matter what comes in whatever path we take in life, that we keep going, resisting the will to succumb to it, and that we preserve who we are, the soul, from its actions and our own frustrations. It couldn't have done a better job of hammering that home, of exemplifying how important that is.

Originally Posted by Flinch

The inability to save everyone is what breaks Shiro. Simple as that.

At least not without losing yourself. And that's something we just can't have.

[orangejuicetang]

Originally Posted by Nevflinn

Before I say anything pointless, how do you think it changed him?

I've been thinking about that, too. The 'how' is very much open to interpretation, and I agree with fallschirmjager's assessments, but after deliberation I think it went like this:

1. Shirou lives out his dream as best he can, becomes Archer, and spends his life as a hero (strongly suggested by the presence of the Unlimited Blade Works and shattered cities). Presumably he is more content with his path than Archer was. It's strongly emphasised that while through his actions he has become something meaningful to many people, the person he was before was all but forgotten ("Even if your actions are meaningful, you yourself, all the way until the end, are worthless."), but if he's learned anything (i.e. the writers didn't contradict their aesops), then he has no regrets, is content with having done all he could, and faces his end peacefully. It's the only way he could have avoided becoming a counter guardian.

2. Saber, as opposed to taking her place in the Throne of Heroes (Avalon), waits in a state of limbo for an eternity/1600 years/a very very very very very long time. Merlin strongly dissuades this, preferring her to take an assured rest immediately rather than throw her soul away for someone who will likely never make it. But by doing so, she keeps a path open for whoever is worthy of the same place as hers to exist in the same domain.

Long story short, Shirou's life has to rival the entire Arthurian legend at the least.

It sounds like epic sequel potential if you ask me. And who here doesn't want to see Aeneas vs. Odysseus? That would just be epic.

I don't know how it changed him. However, just looking at Fate Shirou at least, if he failed in "saving" Saber, wouldn't it be fairly logical that he would change a bit? Archer is, for all intents and purposes, a broken man. He lost everything he cared about. Couldn't save Saber. Couldn't save Ilya. Lost his lover, whoever the hell that was. Lost all his friends. Betrayed by his ideal. ect. Shirou, on the other hand, managed to save Saber, and probably won't take up a new lover. As for changes, presumably he wouldn't be as cynical and bitter, among other things.

I'm reading your first interpretation, and I'm a bit confused about some parts. What do you mean by

(strongly suggested by the presence of the Unlimited Blade Works and shattered cities)

? What shattered cities? What do you mean by the presence of Unlimited Blade Works? Yes, he still has Unlimited Blade Works, but just by having it doesn't indicate anything about him going around being a hero. Yes, he would probably go around and try to save everybody because, well, he's Fate Shirou. Also

he's learned anything (i.e. the writers didn't contradict their aesops), then he has no regrets, is content with having done all he could, and faces his end peacefully. It's the only way he could have avoided becoming a counter guardian.

No. The only way to avoid being a counter guardian is to simply not make a pact with Alaya. Going by this, when Archer died, he didn't have any regrets either. It's only after he died that he became more cynical and bitter. If he follows his ideal to the logical conclusion and becomes a superhero, he turns into Archer. That's who Archer is, Shirou's ideal.

As for your second interpretation, where the hell does Merlin come into it? If Saber's in Avalon, how the hell would Merlin even get in there? Throw her soul away? What?

[Nevflinn]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

I don't know how it changed him. However, just looking at Fate Shirou at least, if he failed in "saving" Saber, wouldn't it be fairly logical that he would change a bit? Archer is, for all intents and purposes, a broken man. He lost everything he cared about. Couldn't save Saber. Couldn't save Ilya. Lost his lover, whoever the hell that was. Lost all his friends. Betrayed by his ideal. ect. Shirou, on the other hand, managed to save Saber, and probably won't take up a new lover. As for changes, presumably he wouldn't be as cynical and bitter, among other things.

Ah, sorry, I misread the "did" for Fate Shirou as "didn't". Whoops!

In which case, I pretty much agree with you. I can't see Fate Shirou losing his spirit.

I'm reading your first interpretation, and I'm a bit confused about some parts. What do you mean by ? What shattered cities? What do you mean by the presence of Unlimited Blade Works? Yes, he still has Unlimited Blade Works, but just by having it doesn't indicate anything about him going around being a hero.

They were in the background during the narration in the latter half of The Last Episode.

Yes, he would probably go around and try to save everybody because, well, he's Fate Shirou. Also
No. The only way to avoid being a counter guardian is to simply not make a pact with Alaya. Going by this, when Archer died, he didn't have any regrets either. It's only after he died that he became more cynical and bitter. If he follows his ideal to the logical conclusion and becomes a superhero, he turns into Archer. That's who Archer is, Shirou's ideal.

That was me assuming he wouldn't make the pact with Alaya this time around.

As for your second interpretation, where the hell does Merlin come into it? If Saber's in Avalon, how the hell would Merlin even get in there? Throw her soul away? What?

I'm just trying to judge it by what was there, here. Merlin was seen talking with Saber in that place with the pendulum (which I'm assuming is a limbo of sorts).

Don't ask me to be perfect here, we have a hard time making hardline sense of the Nasuverse when it's supposed to be obvious.

[DJ Trouble]

Originally Posted by fallschirmjager

Really makes their parting a huge gut punch.

I just finished Heaven's Feel . . .

The whole game feels like a huge gut punch.

[grylsyjaeger]

Originally Posted by DJ Trouble

I just finished Heaven's Feel . . .

The whole game feels like a huge gut punch.

Get all the endings and watch the Last Episode if you want a happish ending for Shirou and Saber.

[LostHanyou]

Does anyone feel as if Berserker and Gilgamesh are randomly GAR and then randomly dead?

Berserker in Fate = Everyone spends the first half of the VN worrying about how GAR Berserker is because of how easily he bitch slapped Saber. Archer kills him 6 times, which isn't too unbelievable because of UBW. But then... Shirou kills him 6 times with PROJECTED caliburn. Gilgamesh later uses the ORIGINAL caliburn against Shirou, and it's just a regular sword... Did not even kill him once.

Berserker in UBW = "HOLY SHIT DID HE JUST TAKE CALADBOLG 2 IN THE FACE? I THINK HE DID!" Then Gilgamesh kills him twelve times, because for some reason servants with A rank agility still cannot run... Nope, instead they have to WALK towards the enemy. It certainly made everyone feel GAR for Berserker, but it wasn't very effective in winning.

Gilgamesh in UBW = Kill's Berserker while laughing about it. Gets shit done. Suddenly turns into a whimpering school girl when Shirou activates UBW. Berserker and Lancer couldn't get to Gilgamesh, but surprise! Shirou not only gets to Gilgamesh, he catches up to a RUNNING Gilgamesh! A rank agility couldn't do it, but Shirou can.

Gilgamesh in Heaven's Feel = Dies in 2 seconds from the grail. A little later, Berserker lasts 20x longer fighting saber alter, true assassin, AND the grail, while only losing one of his lives. This is the same Berserker Gilgamesh slaughtered in the previous route.

What I think? Nasu was "Okay well I made these characters too awesome. Time to pull off some ridiculous plot move to get them killed off."
Gilgamesh is my least favorite charater, but damn. At least stick with what you create.

[orangejuicetang]

Originally Posted by LostHanyou

Berserker in UBW = "HOLY SHIT DID HE JUST TAKE CALADBOLG 2 IN THE FACE? I THINK HE DID!" Then Gilgamesh kills him twelve times, because for some reason servants with A rank agility still cannot run... Nope, instead they have to WALK towards the enemy. It certainly made everyone feel GAR for Berserker, but it wasn't very effective in winning.

Gilgamesh in UBW = Kill's Berserker while laughing about it. Gets shit done. Suddenly turns into a whimpering school girl when Shirou activates UBW. Berserker and Lancer couldn't get to Gilgamesh, but surprise! Shirou not only gets to Gilgamesh, he catches up to a RUNNING Gilgamesh! A rank agility couldn't do it, but Shirou can.

I'll let someone else take care of the other ones. For Beserker, he was getting pummeled by a rain of swords from GoB at the time, and protecting Ilya at the same time. Hard to run when your getting pushed back at the same time by a rain of swords.

For Giglamesh inside of UBW. This has been argued and dissected a thousand times. First, Gilgamesh doesn't run from Shirou until the very end of the battle, and we have no idea if Shirou could have caught up or not, because UBW was dispelled at that moment by the backlash from Excalibur. Second, Gilgamesh is actually pretty smart. The problem is that his arrogance is still a hundred times greater than his intelligence. Shirou insults Gilgamesh's collection of swords, so Gilgamesh decides to fight Shirou with only swords to prove how superior his are, even though he's at a severe disadvantage.

[grylsyjaeger]

Can anyone help me find these missing CGs?

[LostHanyou]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

For Giglamesh inside of UBW. This has been argued and dissected a thousand times. First, Gilgamesh doesn't run from Shirou until the very end of the battle, and we have no idea if Shirou could have caught up or not, because UBW was dispelled at that moment by the backlash from Excalibur. Second, Gilgamesh is actually pretty smart. The problem is that his arrogance is still a hundred times greater than his intelligence. Shirou insults Gilgamesh's collection of swords, so Gilgamesh decides to fight Shirou with only swords to prove how superior his are, even though he's at a severe disadvantage.

Gilgamesh tries to retreat but is cornered by Shirou, at which time he tries pulling out Ea and Shirou lops off his arm. Then Gilgamesh breaks out into a RUN, and it's described that Shirou is faster than Gilgamesh, and even Gilgamesh realizes that. I understand that UBW is supposed to be the gate of Babylon counter, I just found it extremely dumb that Shirou basically rushes a servant and wins.

For the Berserker one... Okay, I'll accept the Ilya part. I feel as if that's a lousy excuse because Ilya didn't die in Archer's unlimited blade works, and the manga shows that Archer is perfectly willing to kill Ilya.

[orangejuicetang]

Gilgamesh doesn't try to retreat until his arm gets cut off by Shirou when he reaches for Ea. He then jumps backwards, and tries to retreat. I rewatched the scene to look for what your talking about, and at the end, I'm pretty sure the "But I'm faster" thing is referring to the speed at which Shirou is drawing his Noble Phantasm, since the line right before is "as he pulls out a Noble Phantasm from behind him." Because that's the entire reason UBW is the counter to GoB, is because it draws out the Noble Phantasms faster.

I find it really difficult to believe that Archer would try to kill Ilya, especially considering that Ilya dying was one of the things that turned Archer into, well, Archer. It was apparently one his biggest regrets or something, that he was unable to save Ilya/keep her from dying. Besides, I don't think that Archer actually used UBW on Beserker at any point during the visual novel. Didn't the Fate route scene sort of imply that he fought Beserker in melee combat instead of using UBW?

[LostHanyou]

The intermission merely said that Berserker was killed 6 times, each with a different attack. It never mentions UBW, but I can't imagine Archer having the ability to project weapons stronger than caladbolg so many times without his reality marble. In UBW Archer stated if he projected Excalibur he wouldn't have the mana to use it, and considering caladbolg is A rank, just a little below Excalibur, one could assume he wouldn't have the mana to kill Berserker more than twice. But then again, it's hard to compare Berserker's strength from different routes/moments because of what I said in the original post.

"Gilgamesh retreats. I close the distance at once, pull out a sword, and slash at him."
That is pre-arm loss
"He jumps back. Avoiding the twin blades, he retreats still further."
Unless you're telling me he's jumping backwards some more like a bunny, that sounds like running.

[orangejuicetang]

It's hard to imagine Beserker giving Archer enough time to fully cast the incantation for UBW, and going from the intermission, it said that Beserker regretted being Mad because if he was sane, he could enjoy the battle in swordsmanship. It's hard to imagine Archer even bothering to use melee weapons in UBW considering that he would probably just swordrain. Also, Excalibur is ridiculously powerful. It's more powerful than Caliburn, which is enough to take out 6 of Beserker's lives in one attack, and a point blank Excalibur blast may be enough to take out all of Beserker's lives at once, although I'm not sure where I read that second part. But either way, Excalibur presumably uses alot more prana than Caladborg.

I interpreted the first part as him moving slowly backwards while parrying Shirou's attacks. If he was running then, he certainly couldn't block the sword slashes. Unless you want to imply that he was running backwards. For the second thing, I thought it was exactly like him jumping backwards, similar to Lancer suddenly leaping back twenty meters of however much it was during his second fight with Archer. And to be honest, I find it hard to picture Gilgamesh, who ignores the perfect chance to kill his enemies in UBW because his coat might get dirty, would do something like running away from somebody. Or running at all.

[mAc Chaos]

Originally Posted by LostHanyou

"Gilgamesh retreats. I close the distance at once, pull out a sword, and slash at him."
That is pre-arm loss
"He jumps back. Avoiding the twin blades, he retreats still further."
Unless you're telling me he's jumping backwards some more like a bunny, that sounds like running.

I thought of that scene as, Shirou swipes at him, and he barely jumps back avoiding it.

[LostHanyou]

Again, caliburn also did nothing a normal sword wouldn't do when Gilgamesh slashed Shirou with the original. Caliburn taking out 6 of Berserker's lives was just dumb.
More of a question than a point, didn't Saber Alter use Excalibur when fighting Berserker? I don't think she ever said the words, but the scene makes it seem as if she used it.

I suppose I can see Gilgamesh walking backwards, though I wouldn't really call that much of a retreat.

[willyvereb]

Anyways It's a serious joke than Shirou can even hit Gilgamesh... Nasu trippled his stupidity(to his CIS he added 2 times of PIS) in UBW to make him hold back to "human level" even as he was cornered to make Shirou at least land a hit on him. Otherwise at the first clash of swords he would've ended up exactly like at the Bridge scene of Fate... tenths of meters away with his guts splattered(though he miraculously survived).

And Berserker can't rin, because of the continous storm of NPs. Also because Gilgamesh didn't exactly aim at him but Illya to make him block the coming NPs with his body.
Gilgamesh isn't an idiot to face the hero with the best physical stats in such a short range without a plan.

[faiz blaster]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Anyways It's a serious joke than Shirou can even hit Gilgamesh... Nasu trippled his stupidity(to his CIS he added 2 times of PIS) in UBW to make him hold back to "human level" even as he was cornered to make Shirou at least land a hit on him. Otherwise at the first clash of swords he would've ended up exactly like at the Bridge scene of Fate... tenths of meters away with his guts splattered(though he miraculously survived).

And Berserker can't rin, because of the continous storm of NPs. Also because Gilgamesh didn't exactly aim at him but Illya to make him block the coming NPs with his body.
Gilgamesh isn't an idiot to face the hero with the best physical stats in such a short range without a plan.

You seems to be missing something really important about that particular scene: the whole thing wasn't much a battle between Shirou and Gilgamesh, but more a fight of Unlimited Blade Works against Gate of Babylon. True, Gil was CARELESS (not stupid, there is a difference), but you have to understand the whole thing that lead to that.

First of all lets make one thing clear: Gilgamesh is the strongest character in the whole story (all of them). Even Dark Sakura whose power matched a Counter Guardian is no threat for him. He is the only absolute one standing at the top and he knows it, but that is also the root of his undoing in all the routes.

You see with the knowledge of his superiority comes the confidence of that superiority. Knowing that there is nobody more powerful than him results in Gilgamesh never taking his fights seriously. He never fights at 100% simply because most of his enemies can be defeated without him having to do so. That in turn causes him to let his guard down at moments that he shouldn't. Proof being that every time that Gil died he happened to be surprised by something.

Lets see the UBW fight specifically.

During the first good part of that battle, Gil was just toying around with Shirou. He was firing his swords one at the time and giving the boy time to project copies to defend himself. True, he saw Shirou as an enemy and took the whole think a little more seriously than normal (he even took Ea out at one point. Something that he himself said that should be only used against someone on the level of Saber), but that was more due a personal grudge than actually seeing Shirou as a threat (for some reason Gil seems to hate things that can multiply infinitely, something that Emiya can do with his projections). Still, in no point at that time we see Gilgamesh actually go all out on Shirou.

Things start to turn around when Shirou deploys his Reality Marble. Now at that point anyone else would start to get serious and kill the brat at once. And probably Gil himself would also have done so, had Shirou not made that whole "there is no such thing that a copy can't beat the original" talk. Besides carelessness, Gilgamesh's other greatest flaw is his pride, and the thing that he has the most pride about is his treasury of originals that Shirou just insulted with his speech. So, with Gilgamesh being Gilgamesh, all reason was disregarded and the fight turned into a competition of weapons.

Gilgamesh is the greatest hero that overwhelms other Heroic Spirit with an infinite supply of weapons. There is no proper hero that can match Gilgamesh in a competition of Noble Phantasms, but Emiya is an oddity that actually can (they are not said to be natural enemies for nothing). So here Gilgamesh sees himself with two great disadvantages: 1. Shirou has all his swords pretty much at hand, while he has to take his out of inside Gate of Babylon first; 2. with a significant difference of speed against him, Gilgamesh is forced to destroy his own weapons in order to protect himself from Shirou's attacks; By the time he realized his mistake, Gilgamesh was already stuck in a vicious cycle of draw weapon-defend against incoming attack-weapon destroyed-repeat.

So ultimately, Shirou's victory against was due both because Gilgamesh never took him as seriously as he should until it was too late, and because of exploiting the flaw that Gilgamesh's weapons albeit countless were not infinite, while Shirou's were.

[Reliability]

I wonder what would happen if Archer fought Alter saber

:O

[Aqua Knight]

Well, Shirou defeated her in HF, though partly,but I think Alter didn't see a threat in him so she lost. Fighting Archer she would be more concentrated etc. etc. I think she wins. But Archer can project Rule Breaker and cut Saber from Sakura. So there's no definite answer.

Did Archer, being a counter guardian, have any advantages, like higher mana or prana or whatever?

[Flinch]

Seeing how he was nothing more than a spirit as a counter guardian, he didn't have a real body. I guess he never could get ill, or hung over. Don't htink mana would be affected by it.