Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[orangejuicetang]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

But enough of Saber we hardly even mentioned the other heroines yet.
For example Rin. She should be a better choice...they have proper chemistry and they even managed to change each other somehow. Though there's the same problem as with Saber: she would likely wear the pants in their relationship instead of Shirou. Rin needs somone who can as sharp as her and punches her back...while Shirou has moments like that he's still somehow our doormat-like boy. She needs somone who can oppose her and in turn also strong mentally. Issei for example can oppose her, but not a strong person, while Shirou can't oppose her, but a strong person. Archer for example have an interesting chemistry with Rin even if it was unromantical to the end...in short I can understand why people often pair up the two.

The interesting thing about Rin is actually how she is the opposite of Shirou in quite a few areas. She seems to be tough and acts tough, but is actually kinda fragile inside, like how the UBW Bloodfort scene really shakes her. On the other hand, Shirou turns out be much tougher than the doormat he appears at the surface. Rin can can do everything well except the most important thing which she messes up, but Shirou manages to nail things when they really matter. I definitely think your cutting Shirou a little short by saying he's a doormat who can't roll with her punches.

[willyvereb]

Originally Posted by kakakka

Wait, you blame the H-scene? That never clicked to me though. I always thought awkwardness came in between them after that, not romantic feelings. Sort of like, "I can't believe you do this to me" kind of feeling - you know what I mean.

The thing that increased my interest about the pairing, and I felt they really started to understand each other, was during and after their date. Even late, I think that was the most romantic scene they have.

Perhaps...it's naturally was the most romantical scene of the two, and that's one of the reason why he's the least suited with Saber. With Rin he had quite the amount of romantical scenes, not to mention Sakura.
Perhaps the amount of romantical scenes =/= the chemistry, but a valid point when we're debating it.

But you should delete your second post...I don't really like those scattered DPs...

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

The interesting thing about Rin is actually how she is the opposite of Shirou in quite a few areas. She seems to be tough and acts tough, but is actually kinda fragile inside, like how the UBW Bloodfort scene really shakes her. On the other hand, Shirou turns out be much tougher than the doormat he appears at the surface. Rin can can do everything well except the most important thing which she messes up, but Shirou manages to nail things when they really matter. I definitely think your cutting Shirou a little short by saying he's a doormat who can't roll with her punches.

Well I might've said wrong...He can pull his punches and has a strong spirit, but he isn't the one in control. He's kind of devout while Rin likes to order people around. But it wasn't in HF...actually he takes the lead to somehow Rin's surprise. Many people suspect that Rin's fallen in love with Shirou more in HF than in UBW, despite she wasn't even Shirou's focus. But the very least she's fallen in love with him in HF as much as she's in UBW, her route.

And now we should mention the other heroines too...the big focus on saber bothers me when we hardly mention the other heroines.

[kakakka]

But you should delete your second post...I don't really like those scattered DPs...

I guess I was at the mess this time. I thought someone's going to post after me, since this topic is active this time, so I didn't really mind doing one post the another. I guess what I was expecting didn't happen.

[Flinch]

The ironic part was that they made Saber very different from the legend. The downfall of Arthur was not caused by his ideology, but by his failure to listen to others. Additionally, he had greed to an extent. When Viviane demanded he return Excalibur and its scabbard to the people of Avalon for rejecting them in favor of the Christian God (thank you Gwenwyver, for leading to your husband's downfall so early in his life), Arthur blatantly refused, saying that the sword and the scabbard were his and his alone. Viviane then demanded the head of Sir Balin le Savage or the head of Balin's wife as payment for this. Balin killed Vivian with the Axe of the Green Knight (which was next to Gawain's chair, as Bertilak had given it to him as a gift).

The one who died because of their ideology was Gawain, who already was the embodiment of chivalry. Don't really understand why they made Saber try to be like him so much... killed the validity... more.


In short, we could tear some of the servants apart for them being so different in the story and their actual legends.

Arturia: I don't want to get into details... I'll go on for hours

Gilgamesh: Pretty accurate with personality, well, accurate all around. Except for those earrings and that blond hair... and his white skin

Diarmuid: Nothing wrong... amazingly

Iskander: Nothing wrong... though I do like how they explained his massive size

Gilles de Rais: Nothing wrong, though he didn't ejaculate onto the kids he murdered... yes, he actually did that; don't ask.

Hassan-i Sabbah: Since so little is actually known about him (save the multiple personalities), I'd go with it being quite accurate

Lancelot: Nothing wrong... well, except the purple hair, but that's not really too much of a flaw considering his lineage.

Emiya Shiro: N/A

Cuchulainn: Nothing wrong, though he should've appeared more.

Medusa: Nothing wrong. As many don't know, she was extremely beautiful before her and her sisters were cursed to their hideous form. She was routinely picked on by her sisters, and did wish for it to stop.

Medea: PERFECT.

Sasaki Kojiro: Since his very existence is unknown, we can only go by the stories. Since he always wanted a good fight, I'd say it's pretty accurate.

Heracles: Nothing wrong... though I would've like to at least have seen him use the Bow of the Hydra and watch him own everyone.

[willyvereb]

lol...nothing wrong with them?...seriously.

-Gilgamesh:I don't think so. He turned out to be a good king after his failure to be immortal. And he was a good person somehow after his meeting with Enkidu. Not to mention his utopian mega-rich kingdom with technology only seen in Sci-fi stories. Actually his looks is the smallest problem for me. But at the very least he's an interesting character.

-Saber: about like you said Flinch. But I can understand the reason...instead be thankful to God she isn't the female version of Gawain. No, uhm...Gawaina

-Iskander: He's somehow accurate, but also somehow not. He surely is not like the historians imagining him.(and Velvet also mentions that of course)

-Cú Chulainn: I don't know much about his legend, but he's clearly more like a Berserker...much better as Hercules for that role. He hurled rocks and teared up people with his hands. Not to mention he rarely if ever used Gae Bolg.

-Medusa:Nothing wrong...except she died after she was cursed so it means she would be an ugly snake-haired woman....and her backstory has quite some differences.

-Heracles: Nothing wrong? Well, he's a mindless Berserker now so about personality I can't say much. Same with appearance...moderately acceptable. But his weapon is really strange. He used his club and his bow. I know nothing about a rock-cleaver

With the others I either have no problem or low on information. But anyways...why would they be identical to the originals?In Saber's case for example (s)he's the most famous knight. If you ask somone about the most famous knight, most of them are saying either King Arthur or Lancelot. King Arthur actually the most famous knight...and that's why she represents the pinacle of knighthood there. Afterall their legacy and life can differ in a completely different world like Nasuverse...they just only need to resemble it somehow.
And also why would they make her a somewhat greedier person? If you noticed, most of the anime characters are like some kind of ideal persons or idols...especially heroines.

Now back to the previous topic:
Why no one mentioned Sakura?
I think Sakura fits Shirou the best. She understands him and both are caring about each other deeply. And she was the only one who managed to cure him off his self-destructive ideal and make him think about himself, like a normal human should. Perhaps it's partially the story and situations(to a great deal to say), but in Fate he had the chance to throw away his ideal to keep Saber, but he didn't. Perhaps we understand the reason, but also shows Saber would never be able to cure that mindset off him...actually she migh even encourage it. And in Rin's case she was unable to do a thing about it...she just noted she tries her best. And they both were willing to die for the other. Shirou of course somehow do the same in every route, but the other heroines aren't feeling so strongly as Sakura. Saber did risked her life many times to save Shirou, but not for him, but for her honour as a knight and while Rin was reckless she would be totally out of her mind if she's willing to take a suicide mission just for Shirou(or for nearly anything...if she know she has no chance to survive she won't try it.)
And perhaps the sex feels the best for Shirou with Sakura...

[Aqua Knight]

Honestly, I'm stuck between Rin and Sakura. I doubt that Shirou and Sakura can break up because Shirou just isn't such a person and Sakura,well, she loves him too much. Moreover, Shirou is caring and wouldn't like to hurt her feelings so if they are together they're together forever.
In Rin's case they can easilt break up but in the end Rin will just cry and come back to Shirou.
Also in terms of chemistry , I agree Rin and Shirou win at all costs , but in terms of love Sakura alone beats them.
Though in future Rin will be able to maintain the passion while I dount about Sakura. Rin x Shirou make a good pair even in future as adults.
Other pairings safe Rin x Shirou look very tragic and I hate tragic romances though sometimes they're the best.
Still Rin is my fav. girl and Rin x Shirou ftw.

[willyvereb]

No...Sakura X Shirou beats it in chemistry.
Man...afterall they are f@cking on daily basis(or more) for a year in the ending...their relationship seems calm and silent, but behind the curtain they're rather fierce...
Believe me, he would never get bored of her...especially after all those things he did and sacraficed for her.

[Aqua Knight]

It's only a year....
Though he also has Rin and Rider

[willyvereb]

And neither of them dare to anger Sakura and being shallowed by her.
She's still capabe to it...the only thing is gone is Avenger, nothing else. Not to mention Shirou would die before think about cheating on her.

[Flinch]

Which is why fate/Zero was better. It was a real war, not a giant orgy waiting to happen. People died... especially Uryuu.

[orangejuicetang]

Fate/zero actually wasn't that much like a war in my opinion. It was closer to a battle. Even more appropriate, a battle royal, where a majority of the fights are duels.

[Flinch]

But it wasn't an orgy where everyone knew everyone else. Those always kill the realism of a war. If its you're friend, you're not going to try and kill them. In fate/Zero, nearly every master ended up dying by the end, which was the exact opposite of Fate/Stay Night

[orangejuicetang]

Well, it was kinda predetermined that most of them were going to die. Since it was a prequel. It's like how everybody already knew that most of the Jedi were going to get killed during RotS.

[Flinch]

Even so, it wasn't a giant orgy. Additionally, the age diversity is more practical in f/Z, yet horrible in F/SN. Additionally, you can't really be galvanized to fight a friend.

[orangejuicetang]

If by age diversity you mean they were all adults whereas FS/N was all teenagers, maybe. If you mean actually diversity in age, not so much.
Youngish adult masters= Kiritsugu, Kotomine, Tohsaka, Kariya, el Mellio.
adult-teenagers= Waver, Uryu.

FS/N
Teenagers=Rin, Sakura/Shinji depending on who's master of Rider at the moment, Shirou, Ilya
Adults=Kotmine, Kuzuki, Bazett if you want to count her as Lancer's original master.
Geography=The mountain

[Flinch]

Kiritsugu was in his 30's, Kariya was late 30's to early 40's, Tokiomi was mid-late 40s, Kotomine was mid to late 20s, Kayneth was around Kotomine's age, maybe Kiritsugu. not all are "young" adults.

[Nevflinn]

Originally Posted by gaffer7

I understand though that many may not feel the same way as I do, but to me, the way Shirou and Saber interact makes me approve of their relationship more than ShirouxRin or ShirouxSakura. Feel free to disagree though!

At the risk of getting caught in an argument, I completely agree with you. When I think of one, I immediately think of the other, as they're so very much the same. It's a strength that is consistent throughout every scene they're in. When one of them overcomes an inner problem, they also do so for the other, mostly through inspiration rather than attempt. And Fate is the only route that I can consider to be a love story with an action/drama supplement. I'd go into more detail if anyone's that eager to hear, but really, I can't see the story the same way without either of them.

The ironic part was that they made Saber very different from the legend. The downfall of Arthur was not caused by his ideology, but by his failure to listen to others. Additionally, he had greed to an extent. When Viviane demanded he return Excalibur and its scabbard to the people of Avalon for rejecting them in favor of the Christian God (thank you Gwenwyver, for leading to your husband's downfall so early in his life), Arthur blatantly refused, saying that the sword and the scabbard were his and his alone. Viviane then demanded the head of Sir Balin le Savage or the head of Balin's wife as payment for this. Balin killed Vivian with the Axe of the Green Knight (which was next to Gawain's chair, as Bertilak had given it to him as a gift).

I don't think they were trying to say that Arthur's fall was because of his ideology at all. Rather, they used Saber and the Arthurian legend to (quite powerfully, IMO) express the meaning of fate. Arthuria regrets not being good enough to keep Camelot together. And most modern day people see the Arthurian legend as a sad ending, a downer that puts to waste the entire journey. Yet in reality, as Fate wants to stress, that's not how we should see it. Much like how to climb to the top of a mountain is to eventually come back down, or even how to gamble is to eventually lose, so was it that to establish a kingdom and intend to see it through to the end was to see it fall. And as Shirou helped her finally understand, that's okay, as it was much better than to have never tried at all and not helped anyone. That's the point behind chasing after such a dream and hope.

Yeah, I went on a bit of a tangent there.

[Flinch]

Moral of King Arthur and his Noble Knights: DON'T SLEEP WITH YOUR SISTER.

If you sleep with the sister who is older than you by 6-7 years, who ended up taking care of you, bad things will happen. Ironically, Arthur didn't even know he slept with Morgana until after she was caressing his head afterward. He then remembered that his sister did it the exact same way when he was a child (Arthur was still quite young when he did this, late teens to early twenties)

He sister gave birth to Mordred, Arthur tried to kill all the babies born around that time by putting them on a boat. Only Mordred survived, and was found by a fisherman. Ironically, the fisherman gave Mordred to another of Arthur's sisters, Morgause (Queen of Orkney, wife of Lot, motheer of Gawain, Agravain, Gareth, and Gaheris).


Also, another point that can be stressed: DON'T LISTEN TO YOUR WIFE.

Had Arthur not listened to Gwenwyvere (can never decide how I want to spell her name, seen it too many different ways), he would be in the good graces of Avalon. Had that happened, Morgana wouldn't have seen fit to court Accolon (Son of her current husband, Sir Uriens) or to steal Arthur's scabbard from him. Sadly, she threw it into a lake so that no one could have it if Arthur wouldn't let it go back to the rightful owners.

If you look at it, Morgana plays more of a role in Arthur's life than any other person.

[Aqua Knight]

What CG do you think was the best in the whole VN?

I give my vote to the one where Shirou kills Saber in HF. The colours there were nicely done and Shirou's red cloth on the dark scenery looked awesome.

[sona-nyl]

My favorite is the one where dark Sakura stands in front of the great holy grail