Code Geass - General Character Discussion

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Jekyl

You mix up different things. Motivation is motivation. His internal motivation was egoistic, though he didn’t like to admit it, but his aim wasn’t. If you think that wanting to stop pointless bloodshed is selfish reason then there is something wrong with your definition of selfishness.

I think he was referring to his wish to die throughout the show in terms of what was selfish.

In Turn 18 he actually was trying to resist geass command, but at that point his only options were either to die or to fire FLEIA.

He didn't even try to resist the Geass in that episode in the least. Infact, he saw the moment Kallen was about to kill him as his opportunity to die, not thinking about the Geass for one moment.

The only time he ever tried to resist it was in Turn 20 when he was battling Bismarck.

Lelouch cared about Nunnally, period. He was ready to drop his world liberating crusade in Turn 7 after Nunnally said she don’t want it. He didn’t try to escape from FLEIA when he understood that Nunnally is dead.
Maybe Kallen’s words in Turn 7 changed something, but in takes another 10+ episodes and Nunnally’s ‘death’ for him to see that he was ‘shortsighted’.

You're not thinking deeply enough. Nunnally was one of the most important things to her in the world, and he had suddenly went into an emotionally catatonic state when he thought he lost her. Just because Lelouch was still human and therefore prone to emotion doesn't mean he didn't care about other things.

Suzaku as stubborn as every normal human would be about his views if it really worth something for him.

Suzaku's problem was that he was so fixated on his own beliefs, especially given that he was taking such a lopsided approach to them, that he couldn't see things logically, period.

[synaesthetic]

Well the main reason he was fixated on those beliefs is because he killed his father and wanted to die to atone...

So yeah, not exactly a rational thought process there.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Jekyl

You mix up different things. Motivation is motivation. His internal motivation was egoistic, though he didn’t like to admit it, but his aim wasn’t. If you think that wanting to stop pointless bloodshed is selfish reason then there is something wrong with your definition of selfishness.

It is selfish when you do not care why that blood is being shed, only that it is.

Originally Posted by Jekyl

If there is no ifs, no ands and no buts for you then it’s pointless to argue about characters, acts, motivations and stuff, because even with fictional characters you should deal with all ifs, ands and buts of life and human’s mind in order to understand them. There was ‘if’ for Charles, Suzaku, Schniezel, Naoto and whoever else, because they are characters, not decorations in play about Lelouch fighting Britannia.

You've addressed nothing. Please address the point.

Originally Posted by Jekyl

He acted on his own because he was trusted enough. If the word ‘trusted’ doesn’t fit you then change it to ‘allowed to act on his own because, in spite of his reputation, no one expected his betrayal’.
Nunnally didn’t have to put up with him. Her business was to administrate Area, his – to settle military questions (or something like this), but she asked Suzaku for help.

You confuse trust for autonomy. KoR have autonomy when not given specific orders.

Originally Posted by Jekyl

In Turn 8 even though he opened himself to attack, he already knew that it’s pointless. This one doesn’t count like serious suicide attempt (let alone that with such excuse he could shoot himself anytime, well, before geass happened). In Turn 18 he actually was trying to resist geass command, but at that point his only options were either to die or to fire FLEIA.

As azul notes, he didn't try to resist anything. He saw an opportunity to die a righteous death and took it. He even lowered his guard to let it happen. Turn 8 is a suicide attempt to matter how you rationalize it. Suzaku aims for "suicide by cop", as it were, and forgets all about his Geass when he gets the chance.

Originally Posted by Jekyl

There is nothing to ignore because he did not participate in massacre actually. He was sent to Shinjuku to find a bomb, which he was doing until meeting with Lelouch. When Clovis commanded to start massacre Suzaku was already busy lying unconscious with fake wound.

*bzzz* Wrong. The massacre is announced before Suzaku ever goes looking for the poison gas, and is still in effect (and he knows it) when he's blowing up Knightmares in the Lancelot. Nice try, but there's no excusing his actions. He's participating in that massacre, willingly.

Originally Posted by Jekyl

So he was honest to himself and maybe Nunnally, hypocritical to whole other world, I still don’t see what to praise here, though it’s probably the matter of taste.
Lelouch cared about Nunnally, period. He was ready to drop his world liberating crusade in Turn 7 after Nunnally said she don’t want it. He didn’t try to escape from FLEIA when he understood that Nunnally is dead.
Maybe Kallen’s words in Turn 7 changed something, but in takes another 10+ episodes and Nunnally’s ‘death’ for him to see that he was ‘shortsighted’.

He didn't try to escape from FLEIJA because he was too shocked too move, not as some suicide attempt.

It took those ten episodes for him to lose any qualms about the limits to which he should use his Geass and go all out. His plan before that was in no way shortsighted.

Originally Posted by Jekyl

More like it snapped him out of his mind, because situation became so bad that he didn’t know what to do anymore.

He knew exactly what he was doing. He realized waiting wasn't working and decided the quick road was better.

Originally Posted by Jekyl

Suzaku as stubborn as every normal human would be about his views if it really worth something for him.

Suzaku is far more stubborn than that. He was just put on trial unfairly and set to be executed, then walks back to be executed just because he wants to follow the rules.

Originally Posted by Jekyl

Right, and it takes only 40+ episodes…

And your point is? He still does things the way that works, even if Suzaku's method is "right."

[Nobodyman9]

Moved from the Kallen Thread.

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Okay, I think I've finally figured out exactly why it is that Ougi is such a douche, why he betrayed Zero, and why he is so universally hated.

All right, we all know that Ougi sounds like Yogi, right? Thus the connection between the two is obvious. But here's the key part, according to Space Ghost, Yogi Bear is Satan. So...

Satan=Yogi=Ougi

So Ougi is Satan. It all makes sense!

Originally Posted by incorrupts

On the other hand, if you want discussion about Ougi nobody, you can to go general-charas discussion, i shall gladly join if it is about him, haha.

So yeah, that's my theory. And if you have any further doubts.

[bladeofdarkness]

as odd as these words feel coming out of my mouth
i wanted to talk for a second about gino

i dont really care all that much about him as a character (nor did the writers it seemed ) but rather about him as a pilot

i know we often tend to look down on him because he gets out classed by suzaku and kallen, but i think we might be ignoring the man's actual skill

other then his fights with kallen and suzaku, he has been shown to
1)take out asahina with bearly an effort
2)pretty much play around with xing-ke
3)more or less play with gilford, and later fight both gilford AND jeremia at the same time (i'll remind you all that gilford alone can fight toudo to a standstill)
4)after suzaku gets the albion, and gino gets the divider, gino lasts more time against suzaku then xing-ke AND toudo did combined

he might be overshadowed by suzaku and kallen
but gino might actually be the 3rd best pilot in the show

[azul120]

And he also kills Ryoga Senba of the Four Holy Swords.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by azul120

And he also kills Ryoga Senba of the Four Holy Swords.

yeah
but he killed him with a sucker punch
the others he faced in actual combat

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

other then his fights with kallen and suzaku, he has been shown to
1)take out asahina with bearly an effort
2)pretty much play around with xing-ke
3)more or less play with gilford, and later fight both gilford AND jeremia at the same time (i'll remind you all that gilford alone can fight toudo to a standstill)
4)after suzaku gets the albion, and gino gets the divider, gino lasts more time against suzaku then xing-ke AND toudo did combined

1. Asahina was grounded and unfamiliar with his opponent. Element of surprise.
2. Xingke was likewise distracted, for different reasons, and he was only holding his own as long as Xingke was paying attention.
3. Guilford was flying an inferior unit. Jeremiah's unit is terribly inaccurate when it comes to weapons, and Gino was running, not fighting.
4. Gino lasts because he sat inside and kept the Albion on level terms. As soon as they got outside, he lost quick.

None of these instances prove he's the third best pilot.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

he might be overshadowed by suzaku and kallen
but gino might actually be the 3rd best pilot in the show

Lol, not really. For whatever morbos said as well. The third best pilot, might probably be Toudouh, Urabe and maybe Xing-ke on the mix as well. Resolve to fight + no fear to die = extra "ability" points. Something that Gino lacked a lot, while he was only looking for "fun-rabu-ha-hu."

[bladeofdarkness]

who's better then ?
he's better then xing-ke or gillford (who is toudo's equal)
who's better ?

[Nobodyman9]

Are we talking about just Knightmare pilots who survived? Because if not I'll gladly throw Bismarck out there.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

who's better then ?
he's better then xing-ke or gillford (who is toudo's equal)
who's better ?

I do not know blade, how the hell am i supposed to answer a question like this? I stopped knowing, since i stopped talking to Okouchi on the phone.
I am just saying, given the situations, that Gino, no, is not the third best pilot on the show. That is totally giving him a lot more credit than he deserves, since there were certain circumstances that allowed him to "survive" all the battles. {not even winning, the key is "surviving"}

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

who's better then ?
he's better then xing-ke or gillford (who is toudo's equal)
who's better ?

He's never proven himself better than Xingke, nor Guilford for that matter (he blindsided Guilford to cut that arm off). Gino fights for fun. More importantly, he also doesn't fight head to head that often. Gino takes advantage of opponents who aren't paying attention. Their fault, of course, and in war it's certainly a helpful tactic, but it doesn't make him a better pilot.

[bladeofdarkness]

he is shown more or less PLAYING with xing-ke (who has VERY strong reason to win the fight, since his people are getting killed)

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

he is shown more or less PLAYING with xing-ke (who has VERY strong reason to win the fight, since his people are getting killed)

And the only reason he's doing that is because Xingke is not concentrated on fighting him. The few moments he does, Gino only holds his own.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

And the only reason he's doing that is because Xingke is not concentrated on fighting him. The few moments he does, Gino only holds his own.

what else is he doing then (xing-ke i mean)
he is trying to get past him because he needs to save the tianzi and his men
about gillford
gillford can fight toudo to a standstill in a gloceter (while toudo is piloting his costum gekka, which is like the zangetsu without wings)

and yet gino can fight him AND jeremia, WHILE COMPLAINING THAT HE'D RATHER FIGHT KALLEN

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

what else is he doing then (xing-ke i mean)
he is trying to get past him because he needs to save the tianzi and his men
about gillford
gillford can fight toudo to a standstill in a gloceter (while toudo is piloting his costum gekka, which is like the zangetsu without wings)

and yet gino can fight him AND jeremia, WHILE COMPLAINING THAT HE'D RATHER FIGHT KALLEN

He isn't trying to get past him, Gino is behind him. He's trying to attack the loyalist (for lack of a better word) Chinese forces that are bombing the Ikaruga.

Guilford fought Tohdoh evenly because he had an MVS and the Glouster is pretty close to the Gekka, which is not the Zangetsu (far from it). He's in a Vincent in the other battles, and that's nothing compared to the 8th gen Tristan.

And, as I said before, he wasn't fighting either of them. He snuck in, chopped off an arm, then ran like hell when Jeremiah popped in. He's not shown fighting back, and his desire to fight Kallen is voiced well before the battle starts up, so you're exaggerating his complaining. He says one line during the actual fighting, that's it.

[bladeofdarkness]

so this does raise an interesting question
who IS the 3rd best
only live ones (otherwise it would be bismark)

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

so this does raise an interesting question
who IS the 3rd best
only live ones (otherwise it would be bismark)

Bismarck without a doubt, even without the Geass. With the Geass, he's first. Sure, he's flying a tank with a BFS, but he's still pretty good to take Xingke with no effort, and if his ground battle with Suzaku is any indication, he's a much better fighter.

[bladeofdarkness]

like i said, only live ones