Does fansubbing/scanslations hurt sales??

[Ermes Marana]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

I didn't mean to say that raws are a replacement for TV in English speaking countries, and if my wording came out that way then I apologize. Ermes Marana termed fansubs as a replacement for TV. What I took him to mean was that fansubs are sort of a logical extension of Japanese television for people who can't watch Japanese TV. I've heard that line of reasoning before - people state that they'd watch Japanese TV if they could, but since it isn't offered here they just download fansubs.

I never said that.

I said that fansubs perform the same function here as tv does in Japan, not that one was an extension of the other.


The function of both tv and fansubs is that people watch a show, and hopefully become a fan and support it by buying dvd/merchandise.

Anime companies don't really make money directly off either one.


As long as the fansub is only SD tv quality, they have the same function. Once the quality goes to dvd level, then they take over the function of collectible dvds as well, which hurts sales. That doesn't mean they have to have the same content at all, different things can perform the same function.

[SinsI]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

As for your remark about DVD rips vs. fansubs, it's getting difficult to distinguish the two in terms of quality. Please examine series like Gundam 00 and look at the resolution and quality of those releases. In the past DVDs were far and above the best quality, but technology has changed the game. An NTSC DVD has a resolution of 720x480. Mendoi's release of Gundam 00was released at 1280x720 - and it isn't upscaled! That's essentially HD-quality, if you want to go by marketing terms. The last DVD rips I came across were probably from a few years ago, but Mendoi's releases put those to shame. The only benefit that DVD rips would have over fansubs are the official translations (although you're stuck with the crappy DVD subtitles - fansubs can use more stylized fonts, which can contribute to the viewing experience/ease of viewing) and the dub soundtrack as well.

I hate to say it, but those insane quality fansubs put DVDs to shame. Releases like those aren't the majority of fansubs yet, but you can bet it's coming. Blu-ray isn't yet a viable competitor in consumer marketspace. Fansubbers are going to be slaughtering DVDs in terms of quality, which used to be at least one point that DVDs had over fansubs.

If they put up QUALITY - no need to indulge them. Adapt Matroska and h264 already, or just go down and die out. Gonzo way is OK too.

As a side note - technology doesn't stand still, soon we'll have a decent automated translation available that would essentially make fansubs unnessesary. What would you all say at that time?

[tripperazn]

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

As long as the fansub is only SD tv quality, they have the same function. Once the quality goes to dvd level, then they take over the function of collectible dvds as well, which hurts sales. That doesn't mean they have to have the same content at all, different things can perform the same function.

You do realize that most of the consumption of fansubs via torrenting is on the SD or lower XviD releases right? Very few people choose h264 as it is, HD is even rarer when SD is an option. Quality is clearly not the deciding factor here.

Also, I dare say the majority of people bypass torrenting altogether and go straight to the streaming sites with ridiculously poor quality that doesn't even compare to SD.

The point is, you can say that, but it greatly marginalizes your claims of fansub's damage as so few people download the only thing you deem "hurts sales".

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by tripperazn

My point is that the actual content really doesn't matter, it's the role as a promotional vehicle is what Japanese TV and fansubs share, IMO. Regardless of content, they serve the same purpose in the chain of events that comprise the cumbersome and outdated anime distribution system.

I have a slight disagreement with this but overall I agree with it.

Well, yes, I agree, generally, as in that fansubbers are outperforming their professional counterparts at every turn. However, Japanese companies are no longer charging an upfront licensing fee, I hear (don't quote me on this and correct me if I'm wrong). Also, there really isn't a reason why DVDs cannot come out sooner, companies only choose to for sales reasons. The subs certainly shouldn't take long (look at Gonzo and fansubbers), and packaging/distro should take days/a week, not months.

So, what does that leave us? The industry can try to outdo the fansubbers on extras, quality (Blu-Ray and professional translators), and the thrill of physical ownership even at the status quo of their business model. The simple fact is that they simply transplanted the Japanese system wholesale across the Pacific, so it's not a wonder that they are failing miserably. If they tried, even once, to improve their business model instead of bitching at fansubbers, I'd be a little more sympathetic, but as it stands, I can only see them as passive entities in the dynamic world of business.

I don't know that status of licensing, either. Even if the cost isn't up-front and it's on, say, a per-episode basis, that doesn't mean that a company could dive into a series the way that a fansub group can. What if they ever pull out of a series? People will hate them, and the company might develop a reputation for not finishing what they started. If they do that, who will want to buy from them?

Without knowing the internal workings of what's involved for the companies, I don't think that we can really make a statement about how quickly they could or could not release. For my work I currently do conversion of tape to DVD. To go from start to finished product I take about a week. Some things to note: I'm batch processing, I lose most of my time on the video encode, I don't design DVD case covers, I do design DVD labels (largely from a template), and our DVD menus are largely just pulled from templates that were designed a long time ago. The biggest part: I'm one guy, and all parts of the process are performed by me. There are more processes involved with anime (translation, editing, timing of subtitles, designing new DVD menus each time, designing new covers each time, obtaining extras, fitting all of that onto a DVD, encoding at the right bitrate) and worse, they go between different people. That generates lag time right there. With my loose understanding of the process I could easily see the process taking a full month with staff that aren't overloaded and are working even relatively quickly.

With fansubbing it was different. Most of us were idle until our specialty was called up. If we were overloaded, it was just a matter of dropping a series or recruiting more. We could have recruited dozens of people, we had no salaries to pay after all. With the companies, if they're understaffed they should hire more, but they can't hire more if they don't have the revenue to support quality people. (But against fansubs, perhaps they can't generate that revenue unless they release faster, which would require hiring more people... chicken and egg.)

Blu-ray and such represent a nasty investment at this point. There's no longer a risk of losng money by choosing Blu-ray over HD-DVD, but is there a market for Blu-ray? Does Blu-ray really offer massive benefits over DVD? Supporting both is costly - you can't use the same DVD menu for an HD format like Blu-ray, so your DVD designer is going to be requiring more money to do almost double the work by supporting both formats. I don't know what DVD authoring factories are charging for Blu-ray production, but I'd imagine that it isn't cheap. So you're probably going to have to sell your Blu-ray discs at a higher cost than your DVDs. Are the consumers going to go with DVD instead because they don't see the benefit? Do the Japanese companies even have footage available in HD format, or are you just using Blu-ray as a big DVD so that you can fit 11x as many episodes on a disc? If you go with Blu-ray exclusively, knowng that Blu-ray penetration is nowhere near as vast as DVD, is the gamble of cutting out some solid sales going to be won by early adopters who are willing to pay a bit more for their anime in HD?

I think that the HD segment is a clear loss for the companies at this point in time. The cost of entering HD products into the market is very high at this point which will result in lower returns, even if Blu-ray eventually penetrates as far as DVD and the fans pick up what you released today at that time (by then it'll be an older series of course - time to reduce the price due to the age of the title). No, that's a terrible investment. But I'm just an armchair CEO at this point

Lastly, how do extras work? Do the companies even have extras ready during series production, or are those things that are put together near the series end? My point with that is to say, if companies are able to release very quickly but the extras simply aren't there until the end, then the American company simply won't be able to release extras (and by no fault of their own).

It's a challenging problem, to be sure.

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

I never said that.

What you said was this:

Fansubs from tv source are a necessary replacement to tv in America for these shows to get any recognition.

I used the term "extension" but I was referring to the same thing that you were; the wording difference doesn't matter. Furthermore, I disagreed with you.

The function of both tv and fansubs is that people watch a show, and hopefully become a fan and support it by buying dvd/merchandise.

Strictly in that sense, I agree with you. But fansubs are very different from watching anime on TV.

Anime companies don't really make money directly off either one.

Advertising is huge business these days. Don't you remember the big issues that companies had with Tivo? As if it wasn't bad enough that customers were able to record their own copies of shows, Tivo started filtering out the advertising! Unless you're watching paid programming, shows rely heavily on advertising for funding. Advertisers have to pay for their advertisements to be shown. Advertisers won't waste their money if they know that nobody's going to be seeing their advertisements in a certain area.

What does this have to do with fansubs? There are a lot of implications. If we focus on advertising, then note that fansubbing is essentially stealing advertising capability in the foreign markets. The Japanese advertisers probably don't care about us foreigners - we're not their target audience and we're probably not going to be able to buy their stuff even if we wanted to. But what if anime were available on foreign TV? The anime companies could potentially be making more money through those advertising markets. But if anime is going to be shown on TV, there's a good chance that it's going to be dubbed. Most of us hate dubs - we're going to watch fansubs instead, and we're not contrbuting to advertising revenues. Of course, to say that we're stealing away advertising revenue would go against what I said earlier about assuming that if fansubs didn't exist then we'd be doing these other things instead.

What I really take issue with is your idea that fansubs are fulfilling the same function as regular TV. In one sense you're right, but you're denying that fansubs are, by doing the work of localization, performing a critical function of American (foreign) anime companies. Since we have it localized for us, why should we care much for the work of the companies? (see my banter with tripperazn for some discussion about issues over what advantages companies can offer over fansubs)

[SinsI]

Although advertisements are cut out in the TV rips (it's not a problem of fansubs!), the biggest advertisement is still there - you don't remove the anime itself. What they should do is remove all those Phoney players and Poca-Cola and get the money from Sony and Coca-Cola instead. Pizza Hut supports the Rebellion!

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

As long as the fansub is only SD tv quality, they have the same function. Once the quality goes to dvd level, then they take over the function of collectible dvds as well, which hurts sales. That doesn't mean they have to have the same content at all, different things can perform the same function.

SD fansubs and DVDs are basically the same quality at this point. I would bet for most series, the majority of people could not tell the difference if we made them the same resolution and file size.*

*In fact, they can't. I have seen DVD rips/DVD rip groups referred to as fansubs in countless forum posts. The so called "Dual audio fansubs".

Originally Posted by tripperazn

Also, there really isn't a reason why DVDs cannot come out sooner, companies only choose to for sales reasons.

There are at least three reasons:
Firstly, Japan takes a while to get the materials to the US companies.
Secondly, there is a blackout period after Japanese airing. Nothing can be released or aired until the end of this period.
Thirdly, the B&M retailers, through which the majority of the sales are done, would prefer 6-8 weeks between releases. They will accept one month for some titles though. It should also be pointed out that if the item does not "fly off" the shelves before it is time to order volume 2, they may lower their order from the companies or even drop the title.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by bayoab

I've known people who were members of group 2 or hardcore R1 DVD buyers who never watched fansubs. Then one of their friends convinced them to actually watch a fansub or two and they stopped buying DVDs entirely and just download fansubs now.

Thanks for the info.

Actually, I tend to think that it's the Group 2 "Wait's until anime is available on local TV until watching it, and perfers it dubbed in their own language" anime fan that probably is more into DVD purchasing now than the more hardcore fansub fan.

[Ermes Marana]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Advertising is huge business these days. Don't you remember the big issues that companies had with Tivo? As if it wasn't bad enough that customers were able to record their own copies of shows, Tivo started filtering out the advertising! Unless you're watching paid programming, shows rely heavily on advertising for funding.

You are thinking of the American business model.

Anime companies pay to have their show aired in order to promote the show. They count on fans wanting to collect dvds/merchandise.


Until recently, anime companies have accepted fansubbing as pretty much free advertising, creating demand for anime in America where it wouldn't have been.


They allowed fansubs to act as "airing their show" without having to pay to have it aired.


But now they are realizing their business model doesn't work here (and is working less well in Japan). It isn't fansubs that are hurting sales, in fact anime companies have been using fansubs this whole time to build a market. The problem is a flawed and outdated business model.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

You are thinking of the American business model.

Anime companies pay to have their show aired in order to promote the show. They count on fans wanting to collect dvds/merchandise.

You do realize that there is a sponsors section for anime series, right? Someone mentioned that the companies listed under the sponsors are the companies that pretty much exclusively show their advertisements during the anime showtime. A sponsor like SONY makes sense - perhaps the series was derived from a SONY game, or perhaps SONY will be releasing a game that has to do with the series. The same may be true for some of the other sponsors. But those sponsors aren't just donating money to the anime series. That aside, have you ever watched a Japanese drama and compared the sponsors list? Even compared with the most popular anime series, the sponsors list was easily double the length. Why do you think that is? I don't know for certain, but I'd presume that it's at least partly due to the fact that anime is a niche market and is generally showing at odd hours, while a regular TV drama plays when more people are watching and has a wider viewership.

The model may not work exactly the way that it does in America, but advertising is relatively the same wherever you go. That aside, you missed my point. I stated that foreign audiences aren't the target of Japanese adverts anyway. Fansubs are competing with TV. TV is a vector for advertising - the companies could theoretically make money from advertisements in the American segment, at the very least. But there is competition from fansubs (which are commercial-free, of course).

Until recently, anime companies have accepted fansubbing as pretty much free advertising, creating demand for anime in America where it wouldn't have been.

They allowed fansubs to act as "airing their show" without having to pay to have it aired.

I don't really know about that. Most of us fansubbers liked to think so, and cease and desist (C&D) letters from American companies were not surprising. When MFI, a Japanese company, started sending out C&D letters it was a bit more surprising. I'd imagine that the Japanese companies largely viewed fansubbing as more of a pesky thing that would be too difficult and too expensive to try and extinguish.

But now they are realizing their business model doesn't work here (and is working less well in Japan). It isn't fansubs that are hurting sales, in fact anime companies have been using fansubs this whole time to build a market. The problem is a flawed and outdated business model.

Companies haven't exactly been using fansubs - fansubs exist outside of them, there isn't a partnership with the companies or even communication (unless the company threatens legal action with a C&D letter - which isn't exactly friendly). The idea that the industry is happy with fansubs is purely a fantasy, perhaps created by fans or fansubbers who would otherwise feel guilty about what they're doing.

I don't know that I'd say that the business model doesn't work. What makes you say that?

[Triple_R]

Question: If what I read here about the Japanese business model is true (that anime companies actually pay TV stations to air their material instead of getting paid by TV stations for the rights to air their material - which seems financially insane to me, but whatever), then why would Japanese anime companies care about fansubs?

If anything, fansubs are wonderful free advertising going by the Japanese business model. You can argue that it's poor free advertising if it fails to get many fansubbers/fansub-watchers to buy the DVDs, but nonetheless, it's still free advertising.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Question: If what I read here about the Japanese business model is true (that anime companies actually pay TV stations to air their material instead of getting paid by TV stations for the rights to air their material - which seems financially insane to me, but whatever), then why would Japanese anime companies care about fansubs?

To answer the underlying question, they do care, and it's not just GONZO. Why would they care, you ask? Fansubs have the following negative consequences:

• Devaluation, loss of control over the anime product
• Less people are being exposed to the product via official distribution channels that are designed to bring in (more) money. This includes TV broadcasts, legal streaming sites and screening events.
• Loss of foreign home video consumer market

I've already discussed the first point in my last few responses in this thread, but they seem to have gone ignored. ^^; Other points have been discussed by other folks in this thread.

BTW, Japanese anime companies paying broadcasters to get their anime on air isn't financially insane at all. Most anime are niche products marketed to a narrow demographic of Japanese people willing to pay exorbitant ammounts of money to sustain their hobby. I'd rather think of the broadcasters being batshit crazy for airing content designed for outcasts of Japanese society. Airing porn might be more profitable in those late-night hours, don't you think?

[Vexx]

The short answer is that its hard to tell when the distributors hold pertinent data privately.

All I can add is anecdotal: my anime purchases prior to discovering fansubs? $0/yr, period. my anime purchases now that I have a way to watch them (fansubs) so I'm not buying blindly? averaging $1000-$1500/yr and that doesn't include the additional manga and figure purchases.

Obviously, other people's mileage may vary but remove fansubs or the functional equivalent and my purchases will fall back to near zero. The chosen crap they do air on cable/tv in my area does not reflect even a fraction of whats available nor is it material I'm interested in.
I don't spend a couple of hundred dollars on the basis of a few misleading trailers.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Toua

To answer the underlying question, they do care, and it's not just GONZO. Why would they care, you ask? Fansubs have the following negative consequences:

• Devaluation, loss of control over the anime product
• Less people are being exposed to the product via official distribution channels that are designed to bring in (more) money. This includes TV broadcasts, legal streaming sites and screening events.
• Loss of foreign home video consumer market

I've already discussed the first point in my last few responses in this thread, but they seem to have gone ignored. ^^; Other points have been discussed by other folks in this thread.

BTW, Japanese anime companies paying broadcasters to get their anime on air isn't financially insane at all. Most anime are niche products marketed to a narrow demographic of Japanese people willing to pay exorbitant ammounts of money to sustain their hobby. I'd rather think of the broadcasters being batshit crazy for airing content designed for outcasts of Japanese society. Airing porn might be more profitable in those late-night hours, don't you think?

Outcasts of Japanese society?

The impression I've gotten from almost all of the anime experts that I've talked to is that the animated entertainment medium is much, much more mainstream in Japan than it is in North America.

North American TV stations are nonetheless willing to pay to gain the rights to air animated material (i.e. Justice League, Justice League Unlimited, Teen Titans, Danny Phantom, etc...).

So, shouldn't Japanese TV stations, that exist within a culture that's much more friendly towards the animated entertainment medium than North America currently is, be at least equally willing to pay to gain the rights to air animated material?

Also, why would that animated material need to be aired at late hours?

Animated shows could be aired at virtually all hours of the day.

I have to admit that I just don't get it... not unless an awful lot of what I've been told about Japan's approach to anime/manga is wrong.

Thank you for your take on things nonetheless.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I have to admit that I just don't get it... not unless an awful lot of what I've been told about Japan's approach to anime/manga is wrong.

You're not alone in this line of thinking. Only certain shows like Shounen Jump series (Naruto, Bleach etc.) and series that were designed to be marketable to children, perhaps some Sunrise series (Gundam, Code Geass), Noitamina timeslot anime, family-oriented series (Sazae-san, Doraemon, Major), anime made after works of nationally famous mangaka (Osamu Tezuka etc.), and some classic anime remakes get non-late-night TV broadcasts where sponsors can actually make some money with commercials alone. Those would also be anime that have wider viewership and are generally not looked down upon. The majority of all anime series air in late-night hours, after midnight. They are meant for otaku audiences that are looked down upon by normal Japanese people (whether their reasons for doing so are valid is a different discussion altogether). Consequently, late-night anime producers cannot secure commercial revenue, so they turn their whole paid-for timeslot into one giant commercial for their show and the show's incestuous sponsors. Fansub groups strongly focus on late-night anime.

[Quarkboy]

I did a bit of self research on the advertising shown during a couple of recent anime, which I'll cross post to this thread since I think it is relevant.

You might see a trend here, that makes it clear that the majority of advertising is done by people _who helped fund the anime production itself_, and therefore isn't "outside money" that's coming in, but instead designed to use the anime as promotion for a product.

The ads for Pretty Cure (airs 8:30 AM in tokyo, anyway) consist currently of

After opening:
1. a pretty cure plastic drawing table playset
2. pretty cure portable puzzle
3. Achilles LMX sneakers
4. Pretty Cure gogo dream live (cardass system)
5. pretty cure underclothes "henshin set" (it's like shorts and an undershirt with the anime clothes patterned on them

Middle break:
1. Yamaha children's music classes
2. Cure-mo (the current henshin device for the series)
3. An ad for a "pretty cure hensin picture contest" (take a picture of your kid dressed up in all the merchandise and win... get this... a chance to be in a commerical! for you kid, that is)
4. Joyfull family restarant <- seems normal, except there's a giant cross promotion with pretty cure and the current kamen rider series that airs right before pretty cure. In fact cure dream and her actress are IN THE AD shilling for the restaurant. i don't want to see magical girls selling kids meals, thank you.)

Before ending credits:
1. The cure-mo ad again
2. Ad for the "rose-pact", the overall henshin item collection thingy this season.
3. Tanoshii youchien (fun kindergarten), a magazine company that publishes a bunch of manga mags that come with toys for the kindergarten crowd. The ad features a ton of crappy pretty cure toys that come with the magazines.

So let's see, the ONLY ad that doesn't have to do with the show is the one for Yamaha music school and the sneaker commercial.

Episode 21 of Gundam 00 ads:

Middle break:
1. Gundam 00 DS game
2. Gundam 00 models
3. Keroro Gunsou movie
4. Keroro ace (gundam themed manga mag)
5. Golden Compass (hollywood movie!)
6. Gyao, featuring golden compass (streaming movie site saying you can watch previews and clips of the movie)
7. Super robot wars DS game
8. Summon Night DS RPG

End break:
1. More gundam model ads
2. Keroro gunsou stamp promotion ad
3. Gundam PS2 game
4. seika study books ad. (actually the same company as did the "tanoshii youchien" ad for pretty cure... it seems out of place here.

So for big prime-time show, we have 3 non-gundam related ads.

And to round things out, lets look at a late night anime, since I have them all on my tv hard disc recorder anyway

Spice and wolf:

after opening:
1. Spice and wolf DVD
2. Shugo Chara DVD
3. True tears DVD
4. Blue man group in Tokyo. (performances sponsered by tvk)

mid break
1. dengeki bunko (the manga magazine that serialized spice and wolf)
2. Spice and Wolf Ds game
3. juice tv+ music tv (sponsered by tvk, again)

end break
1. OST for spice and wolf
2. ad for opening song artist new album
3. ad for anime festival event (sponsered by tvk)
4. animate! (otaku goods store)

so late night anime has basically 2 sponsers, this tvk group and good ole' animate!. (note, the tvk group is listed on the production committee for the anime)

[Seditary]

Now I'm not going to get into all the overreaching topics that I've enjoyed reading for the last 6 pages that everyone has discussed, as I am only one guy who can only see things from my perspective, recounting my views, experiences and thoughts.

For me, fansubs have totally and completely destroyed my DVD purchases. (except for a few movies here and there like Tokyo Godfathers, but that's much of a muchness) Ever since I got a decent speed/volume internet connection, I have not bought a single anime series DVD.

However the industry has not lost all my money. I went the path of my greatest enjoyment, so now I download many many fansubs, enabling me to watch 10-20 times more series than when I was buying DVDs (and VHS tapes back further in time), and spending all the money I used to use on that on anime merchandise. (looks lovingly at my Nanoha A's Alter Fate figure, Ai Yori Aoshi cushion, Tohsaka Rin towel, Noizi Ito artbook etc)

Now if fansubs disappeared completely, I would revert back to my previous habits of buying DVDs here and there (I have been around anime most of my life, and thanks to having extremely broad tastes, I can tell if I'll like a series from its title, as unrelated and nonsensical as they are, and a picture of at least 2 of the series' characters) and spending more time doing completely non anime related things, such as reading novels.

I would also more likely spend even more time than now on sites such as this, conversing and listening to other anime fans who would have seen more than I have due to my then reduced consumption. I still remember years and years ago spending days on primitive forums and chatrooms talking to people about Serial Experiments Lain because that was the only series I had watched for nearly a month.

However if fansubs disappeared, my word of mouth generated sales with my friends would be incredibly diminished (I can easily tally up well over $2000 worth of dvd purchases my friends have made over the years based on my recommendations)

So in my small and limited world, fansubs are helping generate more profit for the industry.

[Rengemaru]

2 years ago, I wouldn't pay a cent for anime DVD or manga. But after getting into anime and becoming a fansubber, I started spending about 30-60$ per month on manga and anime products. Actually, a few days ago, I spent 70$ on manga I ordered from amazon. And I'm not the only one, most of my friends do that too after getting exposed into fansubs.

So yeah, fansubbing DOES increase sales. If it wasn't for fansubs, many people wouldn't have been engrossed into this world.

[Ledgem]

Just as a reminder, your experience and the acts of the people around you do not necessarily represent the trends of society as a whole (I personally like to how fansubs have affected other people, but we can't make any conclusions based off of their habits). I don't know what the anime industry is rated at these days but if it's eve a multi-million dollar industry, a few people spending a hundred dollars here or there doesn't make a dent. What are the masses doing, and what are the trends shifting toward? After all, if thousands of people spend even $10 less per month than they normally would have, even ten people spending $100 won't make that a net gain for the industry.