Fate/ Series Q&A

[Lukannon]

Well that's why I say we're on different channels. And I think using a gun isn't a good example for it. For modern weapons, the power of the weapon actually depends on the ammo you feed in. Some weapons are more powerful because they are capable of firing more penetrating bullets and can guide them better--which is similar to my theory. Excalibur = AK 47, mana = bullet, Saber = barrel of gun.

It's actually a perfect example. The 'bullet' would be the circumstances fed to the weapon; the wielder, mana capacity, etc. Bullet aside though, all guns do inherently have their own pros and cons. Unless you're willing to disagree either with this statement or my view that says 'a weapon is not only a conduit for power' which is tied into that, we're still pretty much agreeing.

Shouldn't a longsword be more powerful than a katana...People often have this misunderstanding: only those very well made katana are as strong as you imagine. If both longsword and katana are made by smiths of the same level, a longsword will be stronger, due to their structures. A longsword is in general thicker and heavier than a katana in feature. Although not as sharp, it is more suited for clashing with other weapons, and its attack zones are much bigger than that of a katana. While katana has its advantage on sharpness, its weight prevents it to be wielded with extreme speed like those Chinese swords, so using a katana to duel with a longsword wielder is not ideal, as longsword users are often trained with a shield. A katana can cut through armors, but it is only limited to the joints: it is not capable of cutting through solid metal. That is, if the opponent of the katana is a knight wearing a plate armor on a battle field, the katana will be even less useful than in a duel. While the wielder can use thrusting patterns for this case, it is better if they switch to a rapier. (Of course the Japanese doesn't have rapiers, but a rapier is the best weapon for foot swordsman to fight a knight in plate armor. I personally don't have knowledge how a katana user in the past battle those English knights. Afterall, I'm not a weapon user)

there there, getting all fired up in my specialty again...forgive me...

I'm well aware that katanas are not inherently better in structure than a well-made longsword, which was I specified 'fielded;' the general situation when both weapons were being used was that in Japan, iron and steel were in relatively short supply, so it was more efficient for the most part to have a high quality sword, whereas in Europe, the supply was higher, so it was actually more efficient to have a more cheaply made one. I have no doubt that a longsword made by, say, the swordsmiths in Toledo or something(and I have just demonstrated my supreme ignorance of the subject) would be equal to a katana made under the same conditions. Or, at least, not clearly inferior.

EDIT: And because of 'the sword is a man's soul!' stuff.

As to the question of 'katana-wielding samurai VS a European knight...' I don't really disagree with your assessment, mainly because I can't think of any counter-arguments. I'd expect it wouldn't be quite so cut and dried, though, and plate armor wasn't really all that common due to cost.

*cries* Waa...I'm being laughed at...

WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

If the weapon has some sort of added attribute, that attribute is added during Projection by imagining the effect.
That being said. If the weapon inherently have power, Shirou is to will need mana to also replicate them.

So...what's your point?

Hmm...Projections are inefficient because the weapon has to be created from scratch, not because not everything is internalized. The later is the reason for the projected weapon to be weaker than the original one. The word inefficient is used when comparing with reinforcing.

Oh, I see.

As for Shirou's uniqueness in projecting...play the game, it'll take too long to explain here...

I really should, but I'm lazy. I'll probably just play the entire thing when UBW and Heaven's Feel are out. :x

My uncle works in a metal molding factory and I've seen him make the holder for a table lamp. You won't believe how much process it takes to just make the dome shape...The piece of metal sheet first gets cut, then holes a punched into it and then it's fed into a 30 meters tall gundam...woops I mean machine to be punched in shape--and that takes 3 steps. Well we can compare that with the outershell of the heater...Now let's dont mind the wiring...

That's the point, though. Sheets of metal; they're not going to be specially folded or somesuch, just for the sake of uniform quality. As I said, it's a matter of construction(fitting together the wiring) and composition(the way the steel was folded).

Of course, as I said, as the steel is only folded to remove impurities, the end result could just be a very fine sheet of steel. I don't know if that would still result in things like a temper line, but whatever. I already gave up this argument. :x

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by Lukannon

It's actually a perfect example. The 'bullet' would be the circumstances fed to the weapon; the wielder, mana capacity, etc. Bullet aside though, all guns do inherently have their own pros and cons. Unless you're willing to disagree either with this statement or my view that says 'a weapon is not only a conduit for power' which is tied into that, we're still pretty much agreeing.

Never disagreed with you for a moment. I believe both our theories are correct to some extent.

I'm well aware that katanas are not inherently better in structure than a well-made longsword, which was I specified 'fielded;' the general situation when both weapons were being used was that in Japan, iron and steel were in relatively short supply, so it was more efficient for the most part to have a high quality sword, whereas in Europe, the supply was higher, so it was actually more efficient to have a more cheaply made one. I have no doubt that a longsword made by, say, the swordsmiths in Toledo or something(and I have just demonstrated my supreme ignorance of the subject) would be equal to a katana made under the same conditions. Or, at least, not clearly inferior.

Well...it actually really depends on the situation when which weapon is stronger...A longsword is generally not suitable for mounted combat while a katana is an anti-horse weapon...(In China katanas are called 'zhanmadao' which means 'horse slashing blade', where it is used by swordsman to slice off the leg of the horses)Also it is a fact that when both user's skill reaches a high level, the katana use has the upperhand.

EDIT: And because of 'the sword is a man's soul!' stuff.

...I'm a girl

So...what's your point?

Well...Shirou doesn't exactly have much mana to begin with...

I really should, but I'm lazy. I'll probably just play the entire thing when UBW and Heaven's Feel are out. :x

Join the translation project to help speed it up! Help us!

[Lukannon]

Well...it actually really depends on the situation when which weapon is stronger...A longsword is generally not suitable for mounted combat while a katana is an anti-horse weapon...(In China katanas are called 'zhanmadao' which means 'horse slashing blade', where it is used by swordsman to slice off the leg of the horses)Also it is a fact that when both user's skill reaches a high level, the katana use has the upperhand.

Sorry, but you're wrong this time. The 'zhanmadao' is a name for a Chinese weapon; the only Japanese derivation it could have would be the 'zanbatou,' but even that's a stretch.

The katana was originally a weapon used from horseback, back when it was still the longer and more sharply curved tachi. After ground combat became more common, the katana as we know it was developed because it was better than the tachi on the ground. It was never meant as an anti-horse weapon.

I'd also argue against the katana being a better weapon at higher levels of skill.

...I'm a girl

Which is very much pointless because I wasn't referring to you. ^__^ Interesting to know, though.

IIRC, from what I've read, the katana was revered as an embodiment of the bushido code, and so it was a lot more respected than their equivalents in Europe. It also seems to be one of the reasons why guns never really gained a huge influence in the general population as they did in Europe and America.

[quote]Well...Shirou doesn't exactly have much mana to begin with...{/quote]

Mmkai.

Join the translation project to help speed it up! Help us!

Can't read a foreign language. If it's a translation from Chinese, and you can provide me the pinyin script, I could maybe do a little bit, but if you've already got it in pinyin, what's the point? <

I could proofread or something, I suppose, but meh.

So, yeah, no.

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by Lukannon

Sorry, but you're wrong this time. The 'zhanmadao' is a name for a Chinese weapon; the only Japanese derivation it could have would be the 'zanbatou,' but even that's a stretch.

The katana was originally a weapon used from horseback, back when it was still the longer and more sharply curved tachi. After ground combat became more common, the katana as we know it was developed because it was better than the tachi on the ground. It was never meant as an anti-horse weapon.

Ug nononono, I'm just saying the horse slaying blade in the past Chinese wars are shaped of a katana.

Which is very much pointless because I wasn't referring to you. ^__^ Interesting to know, though.

-.- I only meant that to be tsukoimi

Can't read a foreign language. If it's a translation from Chinese, and you can provide me the pinyin script, I could maybe do a little bit, but if you've already got it in pinyin, what's the point? <

...
what's the point...?

[Lukannon]

Ug nononono, I'm just saying the horse slaying blade in the past Chinese wears are shaped of a katana.

Oh, well, that could be true enough.

-.- I only meant that to be tsukoimi

I don't think my statement was boke, though. ^_^

...
what's the point...?

...?

[iamandragon]

This conversation is starting to die out...looking back where we spend hours writing paragraphs of essays, it's fun debating with you, Lukannon.

[Lukannon]

Indeed. ^__^ I didn't spend hours, tho. :P

On topic: I remember reading in the fuyuki that Ea worked by compressing air to the point where when it was released, it opened up the space to a different plane of existence? I remember that apparently, Gilgamesh said something about it being 'absolute truth' and that it was similar to opening a portal to hell.

Is that true, and if it is, is it stated in-game, or from another source?

And obviously, I should just play the fucking game, but meh.

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by Lukannon

Indeed. ^__^ I didn't spend hours, tho. :P

On topic: I remember reading in the fuyuki that Ea worked by compressing air to the point where when it was released, it opened up the space to a different plane of existence? I remember that apparently, Gilgamesh said something about it being 'absolute truth' and that it was similar to opening a portal to hell.

Is that true, and if it is, is it stated in-game, or from another source?

And obviously, I should just play the fucking game, but meh.

Even I have no idea--I like Gil and his Noble Phantasm, but Ea is just the sole exception...

And it's absolutely funny when you say 'fucking game' when F/SN really is a 'fucking game' (actually only less than 2 percent but hey...)

[kureshii]

LOL, that kinda reminds me of the dub posted on Youtube, where Shirou called Rin "toesucka (Tohsaka)", and I laughed because, well, she is a toe-sucker (in Fate)...

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by kureshii

LOL, that kinda reminds me of the dub posted on Youtube, where Shirou called Rin "toesucka (Tohsaka)", and I laughed because, well, she is a toe-sucker (in Fate)...

Hm? I don't remember that scene? I'm sure Tohsaka didn't suck anyone's toe, at least not in the game.

[kureshii]

She did, when she was priming Saber up for Shirou, didn't she? Unless my memory's failing me... T_T

[dominic226]

Lol kureshii's right I think the dub is in the music vid thread...
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=117

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by dominic226

Lol kureshii's right I think the dub is in the music vid thread...
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=117

No, I'm talking about when Tohsaka sucked anyone's toe.

P.S. The English dub...is not to my liking...

[Lukannon]

Originally Posted by iamandragon

Even I have no idea--I like Gil and his Noble Phantasm, but Ea is just the sole exception...

And it's absolutely funny when you say 'fucking game' when F/SN really is a 'fucking game' (actually only less than 2 percent but hey...)

I'm actually surprised that Gilgamesh's Gates of Babylon strategy is just swordspam when he could actually beat anyone at mid-range/short-range if he was just a bit smarter in his use of it. Hell, Shirou could use the same strategy with UBW. Seeing as he can fire it instantaneously, he basically has an unlimited amount of 'arms' he can guard or attack with. Theoretically, it's impossible for him to be forced on the defensive since no matter what you do, he can always attack, and he can take advantage of any opening, regardless of where his arms actually are.

And it's not like he's stupid or anything. But of course, he's stupidly arrogant.

Another question for y'all: is a Heroic Spirit just the image humanity has of a person? For example, 'Noble Phantasms' are the anecdotes that surround a Heroic Spirit and add to its legend. From that explanation, it would seem as though they're totally reliant on what legends say they are. But this doesn't make any sense at all, since nobody actually has an image of Excalibur as the nuke of Ye Olde Englande. :\

Basically, I need someone to explain how much the legends about a Heroic Spirit alter what is summoned by the Holy Grail. Obviously, the world has a record of what people like King Arthur and Gilgamesh actually were like; but is it that record that is duplicated to be summoned forth in the Grail War, or is the Servant's abilities altered by the legends about the original?

Another question: just theoretically speaking(and this links to the above question), would it be possible to summon Gilgamesh before the Epic of Gilgamesh was found? Like, say someone used the first snake skin in the world just hoping for a powerful Epic Spirit. What would be the result? Would a full-powered Gilgamesh(limited by mana constraints, obviously) sprout forward? A decrepit one? Or would it default to an Epic Spirit with the most association with snakes?

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by Lukannon

I'm actually surprised that Gilgamesh's Gates of Babylon strategy is just swordspam when he could actually beat anyone at mid-range/short-range if he was just a bit smarter in his use of it. Hell, Shirou could use the same strategy with UBW. Seeing as he can fire it instantaneously, he basically has an unlimited amount of 'arms' he can guard or attack with. Theoretically, it's impossible for him to be forced on the defensive since no matter what you do, he can always attack, and he can take advantage of any opening, regardless of where his arms actually are.

Well Gilgamesh only 'own' the swords, but he can't use them. Therefore the only thing he can do with his swords are to shoot them, and therefore his Archer class. Also one funny thing about Gilgamesh's power is proportional to his master's wealth, so one can say that Gilgamesh's power is diminished in the 5th HG war.
However, Shirou also has a weakness: mana. He has an unlimited amount of swords only if he has enough mana. Unlimited Blade Works requires 500 mana, but all it does is provide materials for tracing and storage of traced weapons. If he havn't traced that weapon before, he'll still need mana to put the materials together, which costs 5 instead of 15. Shirou is actually very limited in terms of 'ammo' compared to Gilgamesh. And no, Shirou can't fire his weapons. The ability of shooting those swords only come after one become an Archer class servant.

And it's not like he's stupid or anything. But of course, he's stupidly arrogant.

Classic.

Another question for y'all: is a Heroic Spirit just the image humanity has of a person? For example, 'Noble Phantasms' are the anecdotes that surround a Heroic Spirit and add to its legend. From that explanation, it would seem as though they're totally reliant on what legends say they are.

Noble Phantasm is just a property added to the weapon. Think of it as a poison capable of killing spiritual being added to the blade of a sword. (but it isn't, this is just a metaphor)

since nobody actually has an image of Excalibur as the nuke of Ye Olde Englande. :\

Nasu does. ^^

Basically, I need someone to explain how much the legends about a Heroic Spirit alter what is summoned by the Holy Grail. Obviously, the world has a record of what people like King Arthur and Gilgamesh actually were like; but is it that record that is duplicated to be summoned forth in the Grail War, or is the Servant's abilities altered by the legends about the original?

When a hero dies, they turn into a heroic spirit and is removed from the timeline and enter the throne of heros. Copies of these heroic spirits are created whenever a counter guardian is needed. The HGwar system summons a counter guardian and give them restrains to turn them into servants. Saber and Archer are exceptions ad their being themself is a counter guardian instead of their copy.

Another question: just theoretically speaking(and this links to the above question), would it be possible to summon Gilgamesh before the Epic of Gilgamesh was found? Like, say someone used the first snake skin in the world just hoping for a powerful Epic Spirit. What would be the result? Would a full-powered Gilgamesh(limited by mana constraints, obviously) sprout forward? A decrepit one? Or would it default to an Epic Spirit with the most association with snakes?

Yes. The throne of heros are outside timeline, so yes you can. It is even possible to summon two Gilgameshes in the same time, if given correct conditions.

[Lukannon]

Well Gilgamesh only 'own' the swords, but he can't use them. Therefore the only thing he can do with his swords are to shoot them, and therefore his Archer class. Also one funny thing about Gilgamesh's power is proportional to his master's wealth, so one can say that Gilgamesh's power is diminished in the 5th HG war.
However, Shirou also has a weakness: mana. He has an unlimited amount of swords only if he has enough mana. Unlimited Blade Works requires 500 mana, but all it does is provide materials for tracing and storage of traced weapons. If he havn't traced that weapon before, he'll still need mana to put the materials together, which costs 5 instead of 15. Shirou is actually very limited in terms of 'ammo' compared to Gilgamesh. And no, Shirou can't fire his weapons. The ability of shooting those swords only come after one become an Archer class servant.

A few things here:

A) The point about Gilgamesh's theoretical close/middle-range superiority stems from the fact that he can shoot the weapons stored in his vault apparently at will and without requiring any external cue(ie the snapping of his fingers being a requisite rather than an optional thing). The entire point is that he can utilize his swords as swords, regardless of the Noble Phantasm abilities attached, and at the same time fire his other weapons.

In case you don't understand, it's basically something like this: Gilgamesh, using a sword normally, can seal his opponent's weapon; when the opponent blocks his attack, he can instantly follow up that attack while occupying the opponent's weapon, and when the opponent attacks, he can instantly counterattack while simultaneously blocking. It's basically like having eight arms, only his other 6 can only attack in a straight line.

B) Lol, that's awesome, the bit about Gilgamesh's power being proportional to wealth.

C) The Shiro point stems from the impression I had that he could also swordspam when UBW was expanded? Or is that an EMIYA-specific ability?

Noble Phantasm is just a property added to the weapon. Think of it as a poison capable of killing spiritual being added to the blade of a sword. (but it isn't, this is just a metaphor)

But that doesn't make sense. For some it does(like Excalibur's blast being the actual Noble Phantasm rather than the sword itself or something like that), but for others it doesn't; Enkidu is specifically stated to be a Noble Phantasm, unless it's 'Noble Phantasm' trait is its effectiveness against divinity...which is rather stupid.

When a hero dies, they turn into a heroic spirit and is removed from the timeline and enter the throne of heros. Copies of these heroic spirits are created whenever a counter guardian is needed. The HGwar system summons a counter guardian and give them restrains to turn them into servants. Saber and Archer are exceptions ad their being themself is a counter guardian instead of their copy.

Didn't know about the Counter Guardian bit, but other than that, it's nothing I didn't know.

My question was whether or not the myths about a Heroic Spirit actually affects what is summoned by the Holy Grail. >__>

Yes. The throne of heros are outside timeline, so yes you can. It is even possible to summon two Gilgameshes in the same time, if given correct conditions.

Well, I understand the 'outside of timeline' bit, but as I said, it links into the above question. If a Heroic Spirit is reliant on legends, would legends unknown in the contemporary world have an effect?

I was also under the impression that EMIYA was summoned because he directly made a pact to become a Counter Guardian rather than just being an Epic Spirit and dying and then becoming a Counter Guardian. So it was like the world's memory of him that allowed him to be summoned rather than humanity's collective memory.

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by Lukannon

A) The point about Gilgamesh's theoretical close/middle-range superiority stems from the fact that he can shoot the weapons stored in his vault apparently at will and without requiring any external cue(ie the snapping of his fingers being a requisite rather than an optional thing). The entire point is that he can utilize his swords as swords, regardless of the Noble Phantasm abilities attached, and at the same time fire his other weapons.

Gilgamesh has far/middle range superiority, but not close range. And the snapping of his fingers, in my own opinion, is like a incantation. He clicks his fingers to make his magic circuits perform the mystic which makes the swords shoot.
I need to clarify that Gilgamesh does not have close range superiority. The shooting of the swords, although fast at speed, requires a long preparation time. Also those sword are quite explosive upon impact. In Fate/Zero, Gilgamesh took out the worst 4 swords and shot them at the sea monster. Apparently they blew up one third of the monster, which Saber used her Excalibur at full power to completely wipe out later. So if he is to use those swords in close range, he's more likely to hurt himself rather than his enemy, since the others close combat based servants have their own means to defend against them. (well except for the current Berserker, who's too slow...)

In case you don't understand, it's basically something like this: Gilgamesh, using a sword normally, can seal his opponent's weapon; when the opponent blocks his attack, he can instantly follow up that attack while occupying the opponent's weapon, and when the opponent attacks, he can instantly counterattack while simultaneously blocking. It's basically like having eight arms, only his other 6 can only attack in a straight line.

Gilgamesh can't wield a sword properly. Notice how he only swung his sword at Shirou, who is rubbish at close combat(only compared to servants. He can kick yours and my ass anytime). Other times he have to rely on the shooting of swords to prevent other servants from closing in. Once they enter close combat range, Gilgamesh can only defend with his armor. He can't even use a sword to properly block a servant's attack.

B) Lol, that's awesome, the bit about Gilgamesh's power being proportional to wealth.

And even more funny fact, the master of Gilgamesh is bound to get rich. Gilgamesh is born to be rich, and this richness is strong that it leaks out, making everyone around him rich.

C) The Shiro point stems from the impression I had that he could also swordspam when UBW was expanded? Or is that an EMIYA-specific ability?

No. Shooting swords, although possible for Shirou, puts a great strain on his mind. UBW does not allow one to shoot sword. It only provides materials. Nothing more. I don't know if Archer can shoot swords like Gilgamesh. He often prefers close combat so we never saw him doing it.

But that doesn't make sense. For some it does(like Excalibur's blast being the actual Noble Phantasm rather than the sword itself or something like that), but for others it doesn't; Enkidu is specifically stated to be a Noble Phantasm, unless it's 'Noble Phantasm' trait is its effectiveness against divinity...which is rather stupid.

Excalibur itself is a Noble Phantasm. The laser beam is the phenomenon created due to the release of a Noble Phantasm's power. A Noble Phantasm is just a status of a weapon. (a better metaphor than the previous one...it's just so hard to explain. Maybe someone else who know better can help?)

My question was whether or not the myths about a Heroic Spirit actually affects what is summoned by the Holy Grail. >__>

Yes. Having a myth is the minimum requirement to become a counter guardian for most of the time. The HG usually summons counter guardians to become servants. However, there's an exception for Saber's case, who directly become a servant without turning into a heroic spirit in first place.

Well, I understand the 'outside of timeline' bit, but as I said, it links into the above question. If a Heroic Spirit is reliant on legends, would legends unknown in the contemporary world have an effect?

You mean in another parallel universe? That I have no idea. Nasu never once mentioned parallel universe in detail.

I was also under the impression that EMIYA was summoned because he directly made a pact to become a Counter Guardian rather than just being an Epic Spirit and dying and then becoming a Counter Guardian. So it was like the world's memory of him that allowed him to be summoned rather than humanity's collective memory.

Emiya made a pact with the world. (Called out Gaia somehow.) His situation is very similar to Saber's(the HG in Saber's case). They both did not rely on anyone's memory to become a servant.

[Lukannon]

Gilgamesh has far/middle range superiority, but not close range. And the snapping of his fingers, in my own opinion, is like a incantation. He clicks his fingers to make his magic circuits perform the mystic which makes the swords shoot.
I need to clarify that Gilgamesh does not have close range superiority. The shooting of the swords, although fast at speed, requires a long preparation time. Also those sword are quite explosive upon impact. In Fate/Zero, Gilgamesh took out the worst 4 swords and shot them at the sea monster. Apparently they blew up one third of the monster, which Saber used her Excalibur at full power to completely wipe out later. So if he is to use those swords in close range, he's more likely to hurt himself rather than his enemy, since the others close combat based servants have their own means to defend against them. (well except for the current Berserker, who's too slow...)

Long-range superiority is debatable; he's an Archer, but he hasn't displayed any of the massive long-range power that EMIYA can generate. So he seems more like a far-middle-range fighter to me.

There are a couple instances where Gilgamesh has fired swords without the snapping of fingers, though they may or may not be canon(notably during his assault on Caster), and he's also fired a weapon without actually opening his vault(y helo thar Shiro). There's also a doujin that depicts the same(snapping his fingers, but not opening his vault), but that's hardly to be taken as canon.

The explosiveness of the swords isn't consistent, btw; looking at the game, the CG of when Caster gets pizzowned by Gilgamesh has her getting stabbed by swords, not getting blown up by them. I can't explain the explosiveness of the swords he used in F/Z(unless they were Broken Phantasms, but you'd have probably caught that), but unless the CG is a mistake/prelude to a later explosion, then there's no way that's a rule.

Gilgamesh can't wield a sword properly. Notice how he only swung his sword at Shirou, who is rubbish at close combat(only compared to servants. He can kick yours and my ass anytime). Other times he have to rely on the shooting of swords to prevent other servants from closing in. Once they enter close combat range, Gilgamesh can only defend with his armor. He can't even use a sword to properly block a servant's attack.

F/SN anime says otherwise; it'd be stupid to take it as fact, but at the same time, i don't think they'd extrapolate to such a point. Gilgamesh held off Saber; though Saber did disarm him after a little while. I don't expect Gilgamesh to be able to win in a show of swordsmanship; he only needs to be able to hold his own at close-range in a normal battle.

And even more funny fact, the master of Gilgamesh is bound to get rich. Gilgamesh is born to be rich, and this richness is strong that it leaks out, making everyone around him rich.

"Hey, Master, you're poor."
"Yeah."
"That means I'm going to be weak."
"What!?"
"But my wealth leaks out. So you'll be rich and my power level will be OVER 9000!"
*ownage ensues*

It's really a rather interesting situation. :|

No. Shooting swords, although possible for Shirou, puts a great strain on his mind. UBW does not allow one to shoot sword. It only provides materials. Nothing more. I don't know if Archer can shoot swords like Gilgamesh. He often prefers close combat so we never saw him doing it.

I know what UBW does...I'd heard that while expanded, Shiro/EMIYA could manipulate the swords without actually touching them, tho. Oh well.

Excalibur itself is a Noble Phantasm. The laser beam is the phenomenon created due to the release of a Noble Phantasm's power. A Noble Phantasm is just a status of a weapon. (a better metaphor than the previous one...it's just so hard to explain. Maybe someone else who know better can help?)

...>:| This is quite aggravating.

So...Excalibur the sword is a sword. The Noble Phantasm aspect of it is just an aspect added on by...what?

Yes. Having a myth is the minimum requirement to become a counter guardian for most of the time. The HG usually summons counter guardians to become servants. However, there's an exception for Saber's case, who directly become a servant without turning into a heroic spirit in first place.

Do you mean EMIYA's case? Though I suppose it's applicable to Saber.

You mean in another parallel universe? That I have no idea. Nasu never once mentioned parallel universe in detail.

Nononono. The Epic of Gilgamesh was discovered in like 1835 or something, and it was only translated in the 1870's. Before 1835, when Gilgamesh, as a myth, did not exist in the world, would it have been possible to summon him? His Epic existed; humanity remembered him, but at the time, there was no knowledge of him.

Emiya made a pact with the world. (Called out Gaia somehow.) His situation is very similar to Saber's(the HG in Saber's case). They both did not rely on anyone's memory to become a servant.

When I say 'memory,' I mean the 'myth' you say is a prerequisite for summoning. >__>

EDIT: Another question about Gilgamesh. On the subject of the Gates of Babylon; does he possess everything, or a limited amount of stuff?

It can't be the treasures that only existed in his lifetime(or even in the history of Sumeria), due to having stuff like Balmung and Houtengeki; he's never taken out a Noble Phantasm belonging to any of the more recent Servants, tho. I'm curious; does his treasury possess a copy of every Noble Phantasm in existence, or what? Somehow, I don't think it's the former.

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by Lukannon

Long-range superiority is debatable; he's an Archer, but he hasn't displayed any of the massive long-range power that EMIYA can generate. So he seems more like a far-middle-range fighter to me.

They both have massive long range power. With Emiya having a longer range but less damage while Gilgamesh has more explosive rounds. You can also blame Kotomine for being poor.

There are a couple instances where Gilgamesh has fired swords without the snapping of fingers, though they may or may not be canon(notably during his assault on Caster), and he's also fired a weapon without actually opening his vault(y helo thar Shiro). There's also a doujin that depicts the same(snapping his fingers, but not opening his vault), but that's hardly to be taken as canon.

I don't remember the anime well, but in the game, Gilgamesh always open the Gate of Babylon and clicks his finger before shooting swords.

The explosiveness of the swords isn't consistent, btw; looking at the game, the CG of when Caster gets pizzowned by Gilgamesh has her getting stabbed by swords, not getting blown up by them. I can't explain the explosiveness of the swords he used in F/Z(unless they were Broken Phantasms, but you'd have probably caught that), but unless the CG is a mistake/prelude to a later explosion, then there's no way that's a rule.

That's 'cause Caster's barrier was supressing Gilgamesh's power. In her final moments, there're a few explosions. Also the fact that Gilgamesh's master is poor makes his power diminish.

F/SN anime says otherwise; it'd be stupid to take it as fact, but at the same time, i don't think they'd extrapolate to such a point. Gilgamesh held off Saber; though Saber did disarm him after a little while. I don't expect Gilgamesh to be able to win in a show of swordsmanship; he only needs to be able to hold his own at close-range in a normal battle.

Gilgamesh's horribleness in swordsmanship is obvious. He's even slightly worse than Shirou in swordsmanship. Only reason he got Shirou is because he got a superior sword and Shirou learnt western swordsmanship from Saber, so he tends to let their swords clash--it's more like Shirou breaking his sword on a harder object on his own. If Shirou's swordsmanship is a bit more like assassin then the only thing Gilgamesh can do against Shirou in close combat is to cover his faces in arms and get defend.

"Hey, Master, you're poor."
"Yeah."
"That means I'm going to be weak."
"What!?"
"But my wealth leaks out. So you'll be rich and my power level will be OVER 9000!"
*ownage ensues*

It's really a rather interesting situation. :|

Well it still takes time for the master to get rich...but funny conversation nevertheless.

I know what UBW does...I'd heard that while expanded, Shiro/EMIYA could manipulate the swords without actually touching them, tho. Oh well.

Mislead by others then. They can't manipulate the swords without holding them. And their ownly way of manipulating swords is just reading the memories of the sword and extract skills of the previous owners to use as their own. These memories and skills disappears as soon as they let go of the sword.

...>:| This is quite aggravating.

So...Excalibur the sword is a sword. The Noble Phantasm aspect of it is just an aspect added on by...what?

I'm sorry -.-'
Excalibur in history is a sword. But when the owner turned into a servant, the status of Excalibur the sword is upgraded to that of a Noble Phantasm.

Do you mean EMIYA's case? Though I suppose it's applicable to Saber.

Ya. Their cases are identical. Emiya made a pact with the world to become a counter guardian in exchange for attaining a miracle. Saber made a pact with the world to become a servant in exchange for attaining the HG.

Nononono. The Epic of Gilgamesh was discovered in like 1835 or something, and it was only translated in the 1870's. Before 1835, when Gilgamesh, as a myth, did not exist in the world, would it have been possible to summon him? His Epic existed; humanity remembered him, but at the time, there was no knowledge of him.

Yes. Although the master can say 'who the hell is Gilgamesh? I've never heard of you!' But as long as Gilgamesh exist in any time plane(past/present/future, doesn't matter), he can be summoned. One cannot deny another just because their existance is not known to them. But tremendous luck is really needed to summon Gilgamesh without knowledge of him...

When I say 'memory,' I mean the 'myth' you say is a prerequisite for summoning. >__>

People's memories create myths. However some servants' myths are so weak that it's not passed down so I picked my words more carefully and used memory instead.(angry mayo, for instance)

EDIT: Another question about Gilgamesh. On the subject of the Gates of Babylon; does he possess everything, or a limited amount of stuff?

When I said Gilgamesh's power is proportional to the master's wealth, I actually mean the weapons he possess. The richer the master, the more weapons he can take out from the Gate of Babylon. Notice when I say more weapons I don't mean more weapons he can take out at a time.

It can't be the treasures that only existed in his lifetime(or even in the history of Sumeria), due to having stuff like Balmung and Houtengeki; he's never taken out a Noble Phantasm belonging to any of the more recent Servants, tho. I'm curious; does his treasury possess a copy of every Noble Phantasm in existence, or what? Somehow, I don't think it's the former.

His treasury possess the 'origin' of every Noble Phantasms. E.g. Gilgamesh possess Merodach in his lifetime. After years Merodach was trurned into Caliburn through time and various modifications. Gilgamesh won't have Caliburn himself, but he has Merodach, the 'origin' of Garm. It's safe to say that Gilgamesh has the 'origin' of ALL weapons in the world. Of course, this doesn't count.

Spoiler for this:

Originally Posted by iamandragon

Hopefully not a repose:

Spoiler:

Translation:
Title
UBW is a very powerful thing

Panel 1:
Gil: Are you prepared?
Panel 2:
Shirou: Huh?

Panel 3:
Gil: Even with your reality marble...to trace an object that's more powerful than its parent...that's impossible
Panel 4:
Shirou: That will be decided after the fight! Old geezer!

Panel 5:
Gil's eye: Grrrr
Panel 6
Gate of Babylon!

Pangel 7:
Unlimited Blade Works!
Let's see how you're going to bring out the parent of this toy!
(Made in ZAFT. Zankenken(ship slashing blade) S.E.
Length: 25metre
Production date: CE/73
(Arrow: This is Shirou)

Final panel:
This is Gilgamesh.
(The HG war, a story about people disappearing in a flash)

Side caption: The reason Gilgamesh lost is because he didn't watch gu**am.

[Lukannon]

They both have massive long range power. With Emiya having a longer range but less damage while Gilgamesh has more explosive rounds. You can also blame Kotomine for being poor.

EMIYA has Broken Phantasms, which instantly pwn anything Gilgamesh can launch. Sword-rain's not that good when Saber can instantly deflect them all. D:

I think our definitions of 'middle' and 'long' range may differ.

I don't remember the anime well, but in the game, Gilgamesh always open the Gate of Babylon and clicks his finger before shooting swords.

Oh I see. Well then.

That's 'cause Caster's barrier was supressing Gilgamesh's power. In her final moments, there're a few explosions. Also the fact that Gilgamesh's master is poor makes his power diminish.

If her barrier was suppressing his power, wouldn't the explosions just be external?

Oh well, you've played the game, not me.

Gilgamesh's horribleness in swordsmanship is obvious. He's even slightly worse than Shirou in swordsmanship. Only reason he got Shirou is because he got a superior sword and Shirou learnt western swordsmanship from Saber, so he tends to let their swords clash--it's more like Shirou breaking his sword on a harder object on his own. If Shirou's swordsmanship is a bit more like assassin then the only thing Gilgamesh can do against Shirou in close combat is to cover his faces in arms and get defend.

...Excuse me, wut? I'm confused now. Are we still talking about Fate?

...I need to play the fucking game. >:|

Mislead by others then. They can't manipulate the swords without holding them. And their ownly way of manipulating swords is just reading the memories of the sword and extract skills of the previous owners to use as their own. These memories and skills disappears as soon as they let go of the sword.

Oh, I see.

I'm sorry -.-'
Excalibur in history is a sword. But when the owner turned into a servant, the status of Excalibur the sword is upgraded to that of a Noble Phantasm.

That makes even less sense. What about Fragarach?

Yes. Although the master can say 'who the hell is Gilgamesh? I've never heard of you!' But as long as Gilgamesh exist in any time plane(past/present/future, doesn't matter), he can be summoned. One cannot deny another just because their existance is not known to them. But tremendous luck is really needed to summon Gilgamesh without knowledge of him...

Mmkai. I gotcha.

When I said Gilgamesh's power is proportional to the master's wealth, I actually mean the weapons he possess. The richer the master, the more weapons he can take out from the Gate of Babylon. Notice when I say more weapons I don't mean more weapons he can take out at a time.

Shouldn't he not have had that many weapons with Kotomine?

Or is he just that rich that it makes a negligible difference?

His treasury possess the 'origin' of every Noble Phantasms. E.g. Gilgamesh possess Merodach in his lifetime. After years Merodach was trurned into Caliburn through time and various modifications. Gilgamesh won't have Caliburn himself, but he has Merodach, the 'origin' of Garm. It's safe to say that Gilgamesh has the 'origin' of ALL weapons in the world. Of course, this doesn't count.

But Gilgamesh also has Gram itself, and there's no way he ever possessed that in his lifetime. Hell, there's no way he possessed even half of the weapons he has in his vault.

I'd actually bet on him having every origin(therefore only not having the Noble Phantasms that never spawned another Noble Phantasm), because it makes more sense that way.