Was Destiny a purely black and white show?

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by D a m i e n

people still talk about that gundam serie? it s rated even lower than G gundam (at least G gundam could make you laught, this serie was so horrible i think i stoped by episode 15ish and only keept up with summaries in order to at least know what the plot was).

Actually, Destiny is quite a bit more popular than G Gundam, so why should you be surprised?

Originally Posted by coba

I just prove to you how valuable it is to have a good propaganda or at least to show that you are a "good/right" side while your enemy is the "bad/wrong" guy

That only works if I had made the same kind of argument. Otherwise, it looks an awful lot like a strawman attack.

Originally Posted by coba

Still if they don't accept DP, they will reject it right away. Othere countries like Eurasian, Republic of East Asia, etc are willing to make an agreement with Dullindal that they will try the DP. If the leaders of those countries feel that Dullindal's idea of DP is not acceptable, they will reject it right away like what Orb and Scanadanavia do. Furthermore, the fact that Dullindal manages to get help from them during the Heaven's base means that at that moment they already make an agreeement as allies.

Is there any indication that those countries wanted to sign up with the Destiny Plan? Note that this is very different from giving aid against the Atlantic Federation.

Your argument fails largely because you set up a false dilemma: either a party rejects a plan or they accepted it. The reality is that not only is there a third option of fence-sitting, but parties can make their decision for very different reasons.

Originally Posted by coba

Cagalli has higher position than the Serian for god sake. She is the leader of Orb while Umato Seiran is only PM. It is a fact at that point that Cagalli is presumed missing and that's why Yuuna temporarily becomes the highest commander. Yuuna - utilizig his status - makes claim that the pilot of Strike Rouge is a fake and Cagalli did nothing to show to people that Yuuna's accusition is not true at all. If Cagalli step out of Strike Rouge (so that everyone can be a witness that the pilot is truly Cagalli) and Yuuna still orders the Orb's soldiers to attack her, it means Yuuna commits a treason by ordering assasination against the Orb's leader (that is if she is still the leader)

Furthermore, you are the one who claim that Cagalli is the political and military leader of Orb. If that is the case, then why do Orb soldiers dare to attack their own leader ? I will answer it for you: it is because either they can confirm that the pilot of Strike Rouge is Cagalli or she officially has been lifted from her position as Orb's leader (which means that your argument that AA = orb vessel since the leader of Orb is on board is not valid anymore).

I'm just going to repeat my earlier post since it already addresses your points:
"As I said, authority and power are totally different things. As long as the Seirans were against her, despite what she believed, Cagalli had no way of exercising her authority. If she did, then her troops would have listened to her and broken off combat from the very beginning.

As to your first point, at no time did any of Cagalli's officers ever doubt that it was indeed her in Strike Rouge."

At no point did anybody formally strip Cagalli's rank, either political or military. Heck even if someone did, all she would have to do is not acknowledge it. You're not going to get anywhere without addressing my points.

Originally Posted by coba

It is still better than your argument that as a leader of country you can do what you want .I will make sure if you run for presidential campaign, I will vote against you.

What the heck are you babbling about?

Originally Posted by coba

Right. So basically you claim that Orb's soldier are shooting against their own leader. Good job

Exactly. Heck, Kira was shooting at Orb forces as well.

Originally Posted by coba

BS. Check this website: http://www.nvr.navy.mil/. I am getting skeptical since you didn't check your argument first before claiming sometihng.

You will note that vessels meant for black ops aren't listed.

Originally Posted by coba

Sure, except they all have the ID code from their respective Navy. Even the laundry ship for US navy is assigned a code annd use a name of USS something. Similarly Canada and Brittain with HMS, and Indonesia with KRI respectively.

Why the heck would a commandeered vessel have any kind of ID? You do know what "commandeer" means, don't you?

I'm not even really sure what the point of this is given that the Orb fleet had no difficulty whatsoever in identifying Archangel.



Off-topic:

Originally Posted by coba

No, they suddenly invade Kuwait city. That's why most nations criticized Saddam and took part in coallision (including Indonesia who always have good diplomatic relationship with Iraq). I know they are in conflict, but there is no indication that those two countries were in war. Indonesia are currently engaging Australia in territorial conflict regarding one small island. Sometimes there are clashes in the border between those two countries. However, neither side doesn't dare too invade others since they are not in the war.

While the timing of the invasion might have surprised people, hostilities had been building up for months before then. Iraq itself consulted with the U.S. over how it would react over a potential conflict, and the American ambassador's response was non-commital (another example of why a false dilemma fails real life tests). And as I said before, the outrage of the world was directed at Iraq's act of naked agression. Why do you assume that it was because of how they declared war? You've already dodged this point once - can you actually address it?

Originally Posted by coba

I skeptical about it. You even dare to claim you know about history of Indonesia while in fact you don't even know

Where have I mistaken any historical facts? Note that I've pointed out all of your mistakes - do I need to list all of them?

Originally Posted by coba

Sure some of them are also adopted by other conventions. But like I said before, there are some rules that are not included in any other conventions like how you are trying your best not to shoot the enemy's paramedics, etc.

That's covered by the First Geneva Convention:

"Article 19
Fixed establishments and mobile medical units of the Medical Service may in no circumstances be attacked, but shall at all times be respected and protected by the Parties to the conflict. Should they fall into the hands of the adverse Party, their personnel shall be free to pursue their duties, as long as the capturing Power has not itself ensured the necessary care of the wounded and sick found in such establishments and units."

Originally Posted by coba

They manage to unload 50 % of the Sherman tanks within three days of D-Day. That's why experts argue that if Germany sent their reserves panzers right away, they can prolong the battle by at least 1 year.

Source? If I recall correctly, the Mulberrys weren't in place until June 9, and the majority of the tanks were offloaded some time after. If we take your "facts" at face value, they would have still been outnumbered by the German tanks. On June 9, there were what - two Allied armored divisions on Normandy? At 50% strength, this would be the equivalent of one whole armored division as compared to Rommel's three Panzer divisions.

Originally Posted by coba

The explanation how important communication is during the war since someone undersetimate its importance.

Please show where I said otherwise.

Originally Posted by coba

Dude, counting the number of the causalties doesn't say much.

So what are basing your claim of the effectiveness of fighters strafing infantry formations on then? By the way, you'll find that fighter aircraft typically don't have anywhere near an hour of loiter time.

Originally Posted by coba

It can only prolong the battle since Germany also lacks of manpower and material to built their weapons. However, it can make life easier for Germany since aircraft can conduct counter-attack aginst enemy base behind their defence line.

Which wouldn't have helped much - that's sort of my point.

Originally Posted by coba

Firs t of all, I arrive on Canada in 2002. I am originally not from Canada that's why I am not so sure about Canadian history prior to 2002. I born in Indonesia and I spent my education up to high school in Indonesia. So if you aren't so sure about history of Indonesia, don't claim it as if you know. I will believe in you if you cna translate this words to english :

When you arrived in Canada isn't particularly important since 1) you're the one who brought up the points, and 2) the events you referred to took place on 2002 or afterwards.

I've never tried to pass myself off as Indonesian, so I'm not sure what your point is with that language thing. Just because you spent your high school education there doesn't mean a whole lot if you can't apply that here.

As for history, the effectiveness of an argument is dependent on the accuracy of the facts presented and the strength of the reasoning. And again, I repeat myself as it addresses this situation quite well: "Why should I care where you're from? All I care about is the strength of your arguments and whether you get your facts right."

Originally Posted by coba

Who is your source ? All my family members are born and grow up in Indonesia and you dare to think that you know Indonesia more than I do. My grandfathers and grandmothers had first hand experience since they were born prior to 1930. They know more than your sources on how Indonesian people feel at that time.

My sources are general history books on World War II. However, they're in agreement both that the Indonesian people hated their Dutch overlords, and that the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere went nowhere. I'm making the assumption that the Indonesians weren't stupid enough to either need the Japanese to tell them that they were oppressed by the Dutch, or to believe that the Japanese had their interests at heart while ignoring how they were actually being treated. So far, you've offered no evidence to the contrary.

Originally Posted by coba

Who said they never tried to convince others ? US ambassador for Indonesia tried over and over again to convince Indonesia's government that Saddam is part of Al Qaeda and that's why Indonesia should not voice their displeasure against US's actions.

Really? That's the first I've ever heard about the Americans resorting to this sort of idiocy. Do you have a source?

[coba]

That only works if I had made the same kind of argument. Otherwise, it looks an awful lot like a strawman attack

Well it is up to you decision, but one thing for sure, it does work in the real world. For example, Japan's propaganda in Indonesia during WW II, how Majapahit became the strongest kingdom in SE Asia in the past, etc.

Is there any indication that those countries wanted to sign up with the Destiny Plan? Note that this is very different from giving aid against the Atlantic Federation.

Sure, but there is no indication too that they are against it either. Dullindal manages to convince some people that he is a saviour. He successfully covers his actions. I don't know why Lacus doesn't use the notebook that they found in ep 39 to show how Dullindal is not what people think he is.

The reality is that not only is there a third option of fence-sitting, but parties can make their decision for very different reasons

Sure, some people will follow other just becuase they are afraid. But remember, there are some peoplelike those in the desert (ep 18) who are not afraid to go against EA even though they are losing. However those same people do support Dullindal since they think he is the saviour

As to your first point, at no time did any of Cagalli's officers ever doubt that it was indeed her in Strike Rouge."

At no point did anybody formally strip Cagalli's rank, either political or military. Heck even if someone did, all she would have to do is not acknowledge it. You're not going to get anywhere without addressing my points

I agree with you that they know it is Cagalli who is inside the SR. I do realize the difference between power and authority. It is almost similar with the setup of Indonesia government. Basically we have president and the head of senate. If the president is till president (i.e he doesn't commit treason), even the head of senate can't order army to shoot the president. Heck even the soldier will not follow the command coz if he shoots

If Cagalli still has her rank and all those Orb's soldiers know it is her, how come they still attack her ? She never did anything wrong against Orb, her rank is higher than Yuuna and as you claim, she is on board Military vessel. How come they prefer to follow Yuuna's order. not hers ? Just answer my question first.

"Article 19
Fixed establishments and mobile medical units of the Medical Service may in no circumstances be attacked, but shall at all times be respected and protected by the Parties to the conflict. Should they fall into the hands of the adverse Party, their personnel shall be free to pursue their duties, as long as the capturing Power has not itself ensured the necessary care of the wounded and sick found in such establishments and units."

I'll give you another example (at least in Indonesia and Singapore) where it is not listed in geneva: If soldier encounters children who participate in hostilities and it is not possible to disarm them, they have to do their best to aim to non-vital parts.

What the heck are you babbling about?

Back at you.

Exactly. Heck, Kira was shooting at Orb forces as well.

Well that's new. So basically we got comrades fight against each other without any apparent reason since I believe no one commit any treason whatsoever against Orb.

You will note that vessels meant for black ops aren't listed.

Give me proofs of their existence first ? Even Delata Force and US Navy Seals are still dispatched from USS prior to conduct any missions. Also, if you are talking about ships used for top secret spying (CIA) mission, US will not acknowledge that ships as theirs. So technically they are not part of US Navy.

Why the heck would a commandeered vessel have any kind of ID? You do know what "commandeer" means, don't you?

I'm not even really sure what the point of this is given that the Orb fleet had no difficulty whatsoever in identifying Archangel.

Sure, but Yuuna as commander don't admit it is part of Orb's fleet at all in ep 23. Also, if your claim that they acknowledge Cagalli as the leader of Orb, why don't those soldier follow her command ? It doesn't makes sense at all. For analogy, it is like US Nimitz carrier battle ships (Takemikazuchi) deliberately attack USS Kitty Hawk (AA).

I've never tried to pass myself off as Indonesian, so I'm not sure what your point is with that language thing. Just because you spent your high school education there doesn't mean a whole lot if you can't apply that here.

You claim that Indonesian people didn't believe Japanese propaganda. BS, all histroical text books in Indonesia claims the other way around and my grandpa and grandma confirm that fact. And you still dare to claim that your source is accurate

While the timing of the invasion might have surprised people, hostilities had been building up for months before then. Iraq itself consulted with the U.S. over how it would react over a potential conflict, and the American ambassador's response was non-commital (another example of why a false dilemma fails real life tests). And as I said before, the outrage of the world was directed at Iraq's act of naked agression. Why do you assume that it was because of how they declared war? You've already dodged this point once - can you actually address it?

Because never claim that they are in open-war against Kuwait. Did Iraq declare the war against Kuwait ? I don't think so. If it is about hostilities, Indonesia is in the middle of dispute over small island with Australia. Some hostilities happens between Indonesian Navy and Australian Navy. But no one dares to invade other's territory because they are not in the war. One thing for sure, Indonesia and Singapore both condemned Saddam Husein's action on invading Kuwait especially since there were no indication regarding the war broke out in Iraq-Kuwait. For comparison, Indonesia did not criticize Uni Sovier invasion of Afgan since they did announce the military action prior to their official deployement. Heck, Indonesia (who were suppose to be pro communism in the 50s) doesn't criticize US's involvement in Vietnam since US did release statement regarding their military action (even if the reason is arguable at best).

I've never tried to pass myself off as Indonesian, so I'm not sure what your point is with that language thing. Just because you spent your high school education there doesn't mean a whole lot if you can't apply that here.

Well you are the one who claimed that you know Indonesian history better than someone who was born there. You can't even read Indonesian language so how come you claimed you are more accurate than me ?

My sources are general history books on World War II. However, they're in agreement both that the Indonesian people hated their Dutch overlords, and that the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere went nowhere. I'm making the assumption that the Indonesians weren't stupid enough to either need the Japanese to tell them that they were oppressed by the Dutch, or to believe that the Japanese had their interests at heart while ignoring how they were actually being treated. So far, you've offered no evidence to the contrary.

Can you read Indonesian ? I will give you as many proofs as you want. Heck if you want to talk with my grandma, she will tell you what you want to know and how they think Japanese were there to hel them. I don't know who the author of your book is , but one thing for sure, my grandps and grandma live through that era. Japanese wesren't stupid. They gained people's trusts in the first year by really helping them. They built road, school, and hospital. They introduced a better irrigation system, provided blanket and food for people. in addition, they tricked people by intentionally setting up structure for future government and armed forces as if Indonesia would gain their independence. That's how they gained symphaty before they did the cruel things

Source? If I recall correctly, the Mulberrys weren't in place until June 9, and the majority of the tanks were offloaded some time after. If we take your "facts" at face value, they would have still been outnumbered by the German tanks.

Right, that's why I said within three days after Operation Overload started (they have two Mulberrys). I didn't create a good statement. I should put it more accurately: the number I mentioned about includes not only US sherman tank, but also Canadian and British tank. Remember that Germany believed that the invasion would happen near Calais. As the result, some of their tanks will not involve in the battle until some later time. Also, some of German tanks were destroyed by the combination of brave allies soldiers (which didn't have any significant problem losing several soldiers since German soldiers were heavily outnumbered by allies) and aircrafts too. Also, The 21st Panzer Division (Generalmajor Edgar Feuchtinger) -deployed near Caen- was so close to the coastal defenses that, understanding orders in case of invasion, several of its infantry and anti-aircraft units would come under the orders of the fortress divisions on the coast, reducing the effective strength of the division.

Please show where I said otherwise

So you do agree with me. Then how come you belittle the involvement of the resistance in operation Overload ? They were the one who conducted massive campaign of sabotage with the purposes of attacking railway lines, ambushing roads, or destroying telephone exchanges or electricity sub-stations

So what are basing your claim of the effectiveness of fighters strafing infantry formations on then?

They bought more time for land soldiers to take over several important bridges or points. It looked simple, but it did make differences in the outcome of the war.

When you arrived in Canada isn't particularly important since 1) you're the one who brought up the points, and 2) the events you referred to took place on 2002 or afterwards.

Did you here Steven Harper's statement on CBC regarding Iraq's war in early January 2007 when he tried to justify Canadian's involvement in Afgan? That's also the reason why Ididn't comment much on Jean Chrétien since I don't know much about him except that he hates Bush.

Really? That's the first I've ever heard about the Americans resorting to this sort of idiocy. Do you have a source?

I am not joking about it. Can you speak Indonesian ? You can read it on Kompas. That's also one of the reasons why they lifted the military embargo toward Indonesia recently so that Indonesia will at least stop to voice their displeasure. One of the reason they used is to claim on how the militants also took one Indonesian as hostage in the past (even though he was already released and not hurt at all). Frankly speaking, Indonesia is one of the countries that has official diplomatic relationship with Iraq so the government usually are never against what Saddam did in the past except during the Kuwait invasion ( I still remember it since President Soeharto especially read statement in front of TV and other media at 6 am to condemned the attack).

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by coba

Well it is up to you decision, but one thing for sure, it does work in the real world. For example, Japan's propaganda in Indonesia during WW II, how Majapahit became the strongest kingdom in SE Asia in the past, etc.

And what does any of this have to do with the fact that it's totally unrelated to anything I wrote?

Originally Posted by coba

Sure, but there is no indication too that they are against it either. Dullindal manages to convince some people that he is a saviour. He successfully covers his actions.

And there's still no indication that anyone bought into his plan either. Lacus' reason for never showing what she was up to was largely because she was attacking his strategy for putting the Destiny Plan into the public consciousness. If he could channel it under the auspices of "Lacus Clyne" gradually, it had a much higher chance of being accepted. Instead, he had to outright announce what he planned, and the reaction was largely skeptical.

Originally Posted by coba

Sure, some people will follow other just becuase they are afraid. But remember, there are some peoplelike those in the desert (ep 18) who are not afraid to go against EA even though they are losing. However those same people do support Dullindal since they think he is the saviour

That was because they were being oppressed - people have a habit of doing that under such circumstances, but it's hardly a universal response. Note that even they weren't exactly enthusiastic about the Destiny Plan.

Originally Posted by coba

If Cagalli still has her rank and all those Orb's soldiers know it is her, how come they still attack her ? She never did anything wrong against Orb, her rank is higher than Yuuna and as you claim, she is on board Military vessel. How come they prefer to follow Yuuna's order. not hers ? Just answer my question first.

That's because Yuna had the power and they didn't want to mutiny. There were other issues to consider as well: the security of the troops' families back in Orb, the EA fleet trailing them, the prospect of fighting in Orb itself, and Cagalli's chances of actually winning. Under the circumstance, it's not completely unreasonable that they decided to stick with Yuna.

Originally Posted by coba

I'll give you another example (at least in Indonesia and Singapore) where it is not listed in geneva: If soldier encounters children who participate in hostilities and it is not possible to disarm them, they have to do their best to aim to non-vital parts.

I'm not sure what your point is. There's lots of things that were never covered by the Geneva Conventions.

Originally Posted by coba

Well that's new. So basically we got comrades fight against each other without any apparent reason since I believe no one commit any treason whatsoever against Orb.

What do you mean by "no reason". Or don't you think that it's significant that the two Orb groups were supporting different leaders?

Originally Posted by coba

Give me proofs of their existence first ? Even Delata Force and US Navy Seals are still dispatched from USS prior to conduct any missions. Also, if you are talking about ships used for top secret spying (CIA) mission, US will not acknowledge that ships as theirs. So technically they are not part of US Navy.

I think that you're starting to get the point.

Originally Posted by coba

Sure, but Yuuna as commander don't admit it is part of Orb's fleet at all in ep 23. Also, if your claim that they acknowledge Cagalli as the leader of Orb, why don't those soldier follow her command ? It doesn't makes sense at all. For analogy, it is like US Nimitz carrier battle ships (Takemikazuchi) deliberately attack USS Kitty Hawk (AA).

That's pretty much what I'm getting at.



Off-topic:

Originally Posted by coba

You claim that Indonesian people didn't believe Japanese propaganda. BS, all histroical text books in Indonesia claims the other way around and my grandpa and grandma confirm that fact. And you still dare to claim that your source is accurate

You've still offered no proof of this; besides, my argument isn't that nobody believed in the Japanese propaganda at all. It was that the propaganda had no lasting effect. There's a very big difference between believing something when you know nothing about the issue, and believing the same thing when all the available evidence argues against it.

Originally Posted by coba

Because never claim that they are in open-war against Kuwait. Did Iraq declare the war against Kuwait ?

Read up on what the American Coalition's grievances were before making that assumption.

Originally Posted by coba

If it is about hostilities, Indonesia is in the middle of dispute over small island with Australia. Some hostilities happens between Indonesian Navy and Australian Navy. But no one dares to invade other's territory because they are not in the war.

More likely, neither country thought that a minor territorial dispute was worth expanding into a larger conflict.

Originally Posted by coba

Well you are the one who claimed that you know Indonesian history better than someone who was born there. You can't even read Indonesian language so how come you claimed you are more accurate than me ?

That's because your nationality is utterly irrelevant. As I wrote earlier, "All I care about is the strength of your arguments and whether you get your facts right." If both are strong, you could be from Mars for all I care, and if you get them wrong, it doesn't matter if you were actually present for the events in question.

By the way, you've done a much better job of stating the facts behind your arguments this post. However, none of what you brought up actually refuted what I said.

Originally Posted by coba

Can you read Indonesian ? I will give you as many proofs as you want. Heck if you want to talk with my grandma, she will tell you what you want to know and how they think Japanese were there to hel them. I don't know who the author of your book is , but one thing for sure, my grandps and grandma live through that era. Japanese wesren't stupid. They gained people's trusts in the first year by really helping them. They built road, school, and hospital. They introduced a better irrigation system, provided blanket and food for people. in addition, they tricked people by intentionally setting up structure for future government and armed forces as if Indonesia would gain their independence. That's how they gained symphaty before they did the cruel things

There's no need for further proof - I have no problem with accepting your facts. In fact, they're in fair agreement with my impression of the events. As I said earlier, "the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere had any significant or lasting effect whatsoever".

Originally Posted by coba

So you do agree with me. Then how come you belittle the involvement of the resistance in operation Overload ? They were the one who conducted massive campaign of sabotage with the purposes of attacking railway lines, ambushing roads, or destroying telephone exchanges or electricity sub-stations

Of course I agree that the French Resistance had an effect. This is what I said from the get-go: "the activity of the French Resistance certainly slowed the German counterattack down". Where I disagree is that there's no indication that they had any role in actually helping the Allies advance.

Originally Posted by coba

They bought more time for land soldiers to take over several important bridges or points. It looked simple, but it did make differences in the outcome of the war.

Ground strafing is probably among the least effective forms of supression possible, so it likely made very little difference.

Originally Posted by coba

Did you here Steven Harper's statement on CBC regarding Iraq's war in early January 2007 when he tried to justify Canadian's involvement in Afgan? That's also the reason why Ididn't comment much on Jean Chrétien since I don't know much about him except that he hates Bush.

How are Harper's comments relevant?

Originally Posted by coba

I am not joking about it. Can you speak Indonesian ? You can read it on Kompas. That's also one of the reasons why they lifted the military embargo toward Indonesia recently so that Indonesia will at least stop to voice their displeasure.

Ah. So that's why the Americans did it - they bribed Indonesia. One would have thought that the U.S. could have thought up of better camouflage for their bribe; then again, no one's ever accused the current U.S. State Department of subtlety.

[coba]

And what does any of this have to do with the fact that it's totally unrelated to anything I wrote?

It started with our argument on why Lacus never shows the proof of how Dullindal is a shaddy character if she has one. You mentioned that it is impossible for her to drag out Dullindal to the court. What I want to say is that by showing a proof that Dullindal is truly "a bad guy", AA can open the eyes of those innocent people who support Dullindal since they didn't know his evil agenda. I just take an example on those people in the dessert (from ep 18) on how they keep thinking that Dullindal is their saviour and Orb is part of Logos even though he was caught lying about Meer's Lacus.

I am pretty sure that Dullindal's accusition of Orb as supporter of Orb is not true. However, if Orb doesn't try to at least defend himself (especially if they have distinctive proof), people from outside won't be able to see the truth.

And there's still no indication that anyone bought into his plan either.

Like I told you before, no one is against it either. Most people are shocked and confused regarding DP, they are NOT skeptical. Their status is just like Shinn's, Luna's and other Minerva's crews'. And look how easy it is to appeal DP against them. It is easy for Dullindal to make them accept DP since most people still believe he is a good guy. On the other hand, the leftover from ep 43 clearly destroy Orb's name. Most people still think that Orb is a supporter of Logos. you watch how most people react about Logos in the previous episode. That's why in the end only one nation -Scandanavia- support Orb in the final battle since they are the only one who know well about the Orb.

That was because they were being oppressed - people have a habit of doing that under such circumstances, but it's hardly a universal response. Note that even they weren't exactly enthusiastic about the Destiny Plan.

Not really. Remember in Seed how people on desert are also against Zaft even thogh the civilians are not being oppressed. If you read Destiny Astray, South Americans are against EA for their independence. Similar thing happens in East Timor and Aceh. They just want their independence.
Back to the topic about those people on the desert, they are the worst case scenario in GSD. They still think Dullindal is a good guy, their saviour, etc, etc even though it is just proven that Dullindal is a liar (about Meer). Also, we don't even know how their reaction on DP since it is not shown. The reaction of most people like I mentioned above are just surpised and confused. IIt is easier for Dullindal to influence confused people compared to skeptical people. The only one shown who directly feel skeptical about DP is Talia.

That's because Yuna had the power and they didn't want to mutiny. There were other issues to consider as well: the security of the troops' families back in Orb, the EA fleet trailing them, the prospect of fighting in Orb itself, and Cagalli's chances of actually winning. Under the circumstance, it's not completely unreasonable that they decided to stick with Yuna.

Well if that is the case then officially, Yuuna is the leader of Orb and Cagalli no longer hold that position. In fact, you can think as if there is a power struggle in Orb and the winner is Yuuna. If that is the case, you can't say that Cagalli officially represents government of Orb.

In Indonesia, the highest powers in the governement are held by both president and head of senate. If both of them officially still hold their respective position, it is not possible for one of them to order military action against the other. However, if let say the head of senate can prove that the president did an act of betrayal, he can order the military to arrest or even conduct military action against him since the president is no longer holding his status as president. Do you get my point ?

I'm not sure what your point is. There's lots of things that were never covered by the Geneva Conventions.

That's just an example of simple unwritten rules of engagement applies by most military in the world.

I don't you think that it's significant that the two Orb groups were supporting different leaders?

Of course, and the winner of power struggle in Orb is Yuuna.He is with the official Orb fleets. He is out there to represent the government of Orb. If this incident happens in the real world, one side will always represent the official government while the other is a traitor.

I think that you're starting to get the point.

I don't get whatyou mean with this one. For example, Indonesia special force sometimes conducted shaddy (spying) operation in the disputed island. However, they use unnamed speed boat to infilterate the island and of course, that boat is not listed in Indonesia navy's (i.e it is not part of Indonesian Navy). Why ? Because if the mission is a failure, Indonesia will claim that they have nothing to do with it and Australia can't prove Indonesia's involvement either. The bottom line is that

The bottom line is that the speed boat is not part of Indonesian's army because it is not KRI (meaning Indonesia's ship). In the war, Indonesian Navy will not use that ship since there is no point of hiding their involvement. Also, I surely never head incident where some Indonesia's soldiers in the unnamed speedboat attack Indonesia's ship (KRI) during the battle.

That's pretty much what I'm getting at.

Okay, if that is the case please give me one example where you have let say US Nimitz carrier battle ships (or whatever nation you want to use) deliberately attack USS Kitty Hawk while the government still admits that both ship are still part of their military.

You've still offered no proof of this; besides, my argument isn't that nobody believed in the Japanese propaganda at all. It was that the propaganda had no lasting effect. There's a very big difference between believing something when you know nothing about the issue, and believing the same thing when all the available evidence argues against it.

Dude what is the evidence that you have to argue against my point ? You only read one single book who I believe is written by non-Indonesian author. And don't act as if you know Indonesia at all. Have you been there ? Have you lived there ? Do you have any relative that lived through the war in Indonesia ? Heck you can't even read Indonesian language. I will believe you if you can speak Indonesian's language at least.

Of course I agree that the French Resistance had an effect. This is what I said from the get-go: "the activity of the French Resistance certainly slowed the German counterattack down". Where I disagree is that there's no indication that they had any role in actually helping the Allies advance.

What expect them to do, give the allies soldier a piggy back ? You said it yourself that their action slowed down Germany counter-attack. Just use your logic, US will of course advance slower in the beginning of the operation Overload if they have to face Germany's counter attack sooner.

Read up on what the American Coalition's grievances were before making that assumption.

I don't care about the grievances. I believe Iraq said nothing about war against Kuwait. Indonesia is a non block, so we usually doesn't give any reaction as long as it is fair. That's why Indonesia's government didn't issue any statement regarding the Iraq's invasion to Iran because the government acknowledged the state Of Iraq-Iran war. We react to Iraq' invasion to Kuwait since there is no indication that all-ot war broke out prior to the invasion.

More likely, neither country thought that a minor territorial dispute was worth expanding into a larger conflict.

So, that's the reaosn why neither countries dares to even cross to other's territory. As long as they are not in the war, you don't have right to invade other nation's territory. At least that's the idealism used by Indonesia's army. I belive Australian think similarly.

As I wrote earlier, "All I care about is the strength of your arguments and whether you get your facts right." If both are strong, you could be from Mars for all I care, and if you get them wrong, it doesn't matter if you were actually present for the events in question.

So what is the strength of your claim that you know Indonesia's better than someone who was born down there, has relatives who have first-hand experiences in that matter and read a lot of history book about Indonesia. Don't tell me that your books know all. If that is the case,who is the one who sewed the first Indonesia's flag ?.

Ground strafing is probably among the least effective forms of supression possible, so it likely made very little difference.

Do you mind to give me the name of the book that claim how air superiority in Europe didn't play importnat role. I would really love to read it to gain more knowledge about it.

How are Harper's comments relevant?

To show that one of the main reason why Canadian didn't commit to war in Iraq but involve in Afgan.

Ah. So that's why the Americans did it - they bribed Indonesia. One would have thought that the U.S. could have thought up of better camouflage for their bribe; then again, no one's ever accused the current U.S. State Department of subtlety

Also, that's to show how stupid to use war on terrorism in justifying war in Iraq. They really need to stop using it since I believe no one bougt it.

[JagdPanther]

Oooo. ^_^

Nice long topic for me to read now that I've returned from vacation.

Hoo-ah!

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by coba

I am pretty sure that Dullindal's accusition of Orb as supporter of Orb is not true. However, if Orb doesn't try to at least defend himself (especially if they have distinctive proof), people from outside won't be able to see the truth.

I was asking how "Still, you can always argue about other nations leaving EA for ZAFT, but you can't argue how they still support Dullindal even though ZAFT just lost to Orb and Dullindal's Meer plan is backfired. Supporting countries doesn't only means whether they are going to win or lose, but also whether you consider them "good" or "bad"." was relevant to all of that.

As for swaying other countries, that's only necessary while their opinion is of any consequence. Since Durandal effectively made it into a contest of arms, the likelihood of any other Earth nations joining is quite unlikely. Moreover, nobody was really in much shape to help either - even Scandinavia couldn't contribute militarily.

Originally Posted by coba

Like I told you before, no one is against it either. Most people are shocked and confused regarding DP, they are NOT skeptical. Their status is just like Shinn's, Luna's and other Minerva's crews'.

How the heck do you interpret that as not being skeptical? Heck, even Minerva's crew (specifically Talia) wasn't entirely in favor of the Destiny Plan. They fought regardless, but that's more a case of duty than of sympathy.

Originally Posted by coba

Not really. Remember in Seed how people on desert are also against Zaft even thogh the civilians are not being oppressed. If you read Destiny Astray, South Americans are against EA for their independence. Similar thing happens in East Timor and Aceh. They just want their independence.

How does this argue against my statement? A major reason why people want independence is because they feel that they've been oppressed.

Originally Posted by coba

Back to the topic about those people on the desert, they are the worst case scenario in GSD. They still think Dullindal is a good guy, their saviour, etc, etc even though it is just proven that Dullindal is a liar (about Meer). Also, we don't even know how their reaction on DP since it is not shown. The reaction of most people like I mentioned above are just surpised and confused. IIt is easier for Dullindal to influence confused people compared to skeptical people. The only one shown who directly feel skeptical about DP is Talia.

They don't necessarily think of Durandal as a good guy, but he's largely seen as an improvment on the previous management. Note that everyone that we saw was skeptical about his plan - nobody thought that it was the kind of instant solution that Durandal tried to present it as.

Originally Posted by coba

Well if that is the case then officially, Yuuna is the leader of Orb and Cagalli no longer hold that position. In fact, you can think as if there is a power struggle in Orb and the winner is Yuuna. If that is the case, you can't say that Cagalli officially represents government of Orb.

Nope. That things don't work that neatly either in real life or in Destiny. Cagalli was the titular Representative of Orb, and that authority was never taken away from her. In fact, it was in the Seirans' advantage to maintain the illusion that she was still in charge. While Cagalli may have lost her power, the transition wasn't done through the proper procedures, so there's no particular reason for any Orb citizen to acknowledge it. The only way to resolve this power split was for either one side to accede voluntarily, or for them to fight a civil war.

Originally Posted by coba

Do you get my point?

Your point is irrelevant. Nobody was doing anything under official auspices, so the legality of their actions isn't important.

Originally Posted by coba

Of course, and the winner of power struggle in Orb is Yuuna.He is with the official Orb fleets. He is out there to represent the government of Orb. If this incident happens in the real world, one side will always represent the official government while the other is a traitor.

Not quite. The legal fiction is that both factions would claim that they were acting legitimately. When it comes down to internal disputes of this nature, it's almost never cut and dried, so this kind of ambiguity can be quite common. Our case is quite straightforward though - Cagalli was the legitimate leader, and Yuna was the usurper. I believe you recall that they ended up arresting him for treason.


Off-topic

Originally Posted by coba

That's just an example of simple unwritten rules of engagement applies by most military in the world.

Not really. If it's unwritten, it's probably not a rule of engagement.

Originally Posted by coba

The bottom line is that the speed boat is not part of Indonesian's army because it is not KRI (meaning Indonesia's ship). In the war, Indonesian Navy will not use that ship since there is no point of hiding their involvement. Also, I surely never head incident where some Indonesia's soldiers in the unnamed speedboat attack Indonesia's ship (KRI) during the battle.

Maybe not, but it's hardly impossible if Indonesia were to fight a civil war.

Originally Posted by coba

Okay, if that is the case please give me one example where you have let say US Nimitz carrier battle ships (or whatever nation you want to use) deliberately attack USS Kitty Hawk while the government still admits that both ship are still part of their military.

It's quite possible in civil war situations.

Originally Posted by coba

Dude what is the evidence that you have to argue against my point ? You only read one single book who I believe is written by non-Indonesian author. And don't act as if you know Indonesia at all. Have you been there ? Have you lived there ? Do you have any relative that lived through the war in Indonesia ? Heck you can't even read Indonesian language. I will believe you if you can speak Indonesian's language at least.

Uh... even using your points, it amounts to exactly the same thing: the Co-Prosperity Sphere didn't have lasting results. Heck, isn't that what "that's how they gained symphaty before they did the cruel things" means?

Originally Posted by coba

What expect them to do, give the allies soldier a piggy back ? You said it yourself that their action slowed down Germany counter-attack. Just use your logic, US will of course advance slower in the beginning of the operation Overload if they have to face Germany's counter attack sooner.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.

Originally Posted by coba

I don't care about the grievances. I believe Iraq said nothing about war against Kuwait. Indonesia is a non block, so we usually doesn't give any reaction as long as it is fair. That's why Indonesia's government didn't issue any statement regarding the Iraq's invasion to Iran because the government acknowledged the state Of Iraq-Iran war. We react to Iraq' invasion to Kuwait since there is no indication that all-ot war broke out prior to the invasion.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to get at here either. You seem to be making assumptions without proof again. The reason that grievances are important is because they're the stated reasons why the Coalition was willing to use force to eject Iraq from Kuwait. UN resolution 660 is the basis for these grievances, and it details actions under the auspices of UN Charter Articles 39 and 40. Not too surprisingly, there's no mention of how countries are supposed to declare war in any of these documents. I suggest you look up the relevant documents before making any more baseless assumptions.

Originally Posted by coba

So, that's the reaosn why neither countries dares to even cross to other's territory. As long as they are not in the war, you don't have right to invade other nation's territory. At least that's the idealism used by Indonesia's army. I belive Australian think similarly.

Not quite. It's more that they don't want to invade the other's territory because their grievances aren't worth the political fallout.

Originally Posted by coba

So what is the strength of your claim that you know Indonesia's better than someone who was born down there, has relatives who have first-hand experiences in that matter and read a lot of history book about Indonesia. Don't tell me that your books know all. If that is the case,who is the one who sewed the first Indonesia's flag ?

It's not even a question who knows more, it's all about the strength of your arguments and the quality of your facts. And no, just because you were born in Indonesia doesn't mean that your facts will be superior to that of a foreigner.

Originally Posted by coba

Do you mind to give me the name of the book that claim how air superiority in Europe didn't play importnat role. I would really love to read it to gain more knowledge about it.

I'm afraid that you've misinterpreted my statements. Air superiority in Europe did play an important role; however, it's effectiveness is often overstated and their influence is a bit different than might be imagined. In any case, air superiority would have helped the Germans less at Normandy than having a couple of extra Panzer divisions. I'm not sure how much I can help with books that led me to those conclusions - I mostly read them over a period of about 10 years, and I haven't read much there in the last five. However, you'd do best to be skeptical of any work that bases its analysis on claims of kills rather than confirmations.

Originally Posted by coba

To show that one of the main reason why Canadian didn't commit to war in Iraq but involve in Afgan.

And how could he do that in 2007, when it was largely Chretien who made the decision in 2002?

Originally Posted by coba

Also, that's to show how stupid to use war on terrorism in justifying war in Iraq. They really need to stop using it since I believe no one bougt it.

Quite a few Americans bought it, but that's about it.

[coba]

I was asking how "Still, you can always argue about other nations leaving EA for ZAFT, but you can't argue how they still support Dullindal even though ZAFT just lost to Orb and Dullindal's Meer plan is backfired. Supporting countries doesn't only means whether they are going to win or lose, but also whether you consider them "good" or "bad"." was relevant to all of that.

It is relevant. If Orb wants to get more supporter, they have to proof that they are not part of Logos. Dullindal cleverly sets up that Orb is a supporter of Logos. Most people in CE universe detest Logos. So whetherr you like it or not, they will detest Orb as well.

You claimed that people will only follow the winner. It is not true at all. I just take an example on how desert people are brave enough to fight those EA (in GSD) and Zaft (in GS) because they know how ruthless noth EA and Zaft are respectively. The problem we are facing right now is that those desert people in GSD think that Dullindal is a good guy / their saviour while Orb is a supporter of Orb. We all know that it is not true, but if no one stands up and says otherwise, those desert people will never know the truth.

Since Durandal effectively made it into a contest of arms, the likelihood of any other Earth nations joining is quite unlikely

It is not only related to other earth's nation. It is also related to Plant . If Lacus can proof that what Dullindal did is "bad", I bet there will be some counsil members who will also try to stop Dullindal (e.g Canaver (sp ?) revolts against Patrick Zala and co. in Seed)

How the heck do you interpret that as not being skeptical? Heck, even Minerva's crew (specifically Talia) wasn't entirely in favor of the Destiny Plan. They fought regardless, but that's more a case of duty than of sympathy.

Because they are not skeptical. People who are skeptical. Skeptical people will have doubt on DP and likely reject it. However, in ep 48, the report in Orb clearly states that most nations are confused on what effect DP will create and what are the advanatges/disadvantages of DP. You can even see that most Minerva's crew are discussing about the DP each other and they didn't react against it at all. That's why I only point out Talia as skeptical person since she clearly doubts Dullindal's intention.

It is easy to influence confused people. I just take Shinn as an example. He is as confused as any other crews. However, Dullindal uses his "marketing" skill to sell out the idea of DP in ep 49 to him. As the result, he prematurely accepts the DP (even if he still has a lot of questions in his mind). For comparison, skeptical people will likely deny the DP.

How does this argue against my statement? A major reason why people want independence is because they feel that they've been oppressed.

Not necessarily true. Nobody oppresses people in Aceh. But they want their independence cause they want to built a country based on Muslim ideology. Similarly, in sout America in CE universe, they are against EA coz they want to be separated from EA. There is no indication that EA oppress them in Destiny Astray.

Note that everyone that we saw was skeptical about his plan - nobody thought that it was the kind of instant solution that Durandal tried to present it as.

Beside AA, and Talia, (and Luna to some extent) who feels skeptical about Dullindal ? If your claim is true, then there should be at least one person from Plant's counsil member who are against Dullindal (just like Canaver in seed) or even worse, someone tries to argue with Dullindal in his fortress (just like a person who shot Patrick Zala) . No one in ZAFT are against him or even question his motive. ZAFT soldiers like Arthus, Youlan, etc are definitely confused. Remember in ep 49 on how those ZAFT commanders use the reason that Orb is the remnant of Logos. Why ? Because they feel skeptical toward Logos (Orb) more than toward Dullindal.

Nope. That things don't work that neatly either in real life or in Destiny. Cagalli was the titular Representative of Orb, and that authority was never taken away from her. In fact, it was in the Seirans' advantage to maintain the illusion that she was still in charge. While Cagalli may have lost her power, the transition wasn't done through the proper procedures, so there's no particular reason for any Orb citizen to acknowledge it. The only way to resolve this power split was for either one side to accede voluntarily, or for them to fight a civil war

Okay. Orb is definitely not in civil war.

Nope. That things don't work that neatly either in real life or in Destiny. Cagalli was the titular Representative of Orb, and that authority was never taken away from her. In fact, it was in the Seirans' advantage to maintain the illusion that she was still in charge. While Cagalli may have lost her power, the transition wasn't done through the proper procedures, so there's no particular reason for any Orb citizen to acknowledge it. The only way to resolve this power split was for either one side to accede voluntarily, or for them to fight a civil war.

No, it means Cagalli already lost all of his authority. If she is still has authority, no one dares to shoot at her. I will believe you if you can give me one example where a soldier is shooting at a president in front of the public but he is still considered as part of military ? <-- I will accept your explanation if you can answer this question. Also, I am not talking about the situation where you have civil war since Orb is definitely not in the sate of civil war.

Not quite. The legal fiction is that both factions would claim that they were acting legitimately. When it comes down to internal disputes of this nature, it's almost never cut and dried, so this kind of ambiguity can be quite common. Our case is quite straightforward though - Cagalli was the legitimate leader, and Yuna was the usurper. I believe you recall that they ended up arresting him for treason

Yes, it is quite straightforward. Cagalli no longer has an authority in Orb in ep 23 (I am not talking about ep 43). In fact, those Orb soldier no longer respect her as Orb's leader. At that point, she no longer represents Orb's government especially since Yuuna can order

In 1966 there is a power struggle too in Indonesia. Soekarno was a president and Soeharto was a general. Sokerna was sick at that time so Soeharto manage to gain control of Indonesia's military. However, even at that time Soeharto never ordered Indonesian soldiers to shoot at Soekarno and the generals who are loyal to him.

Nobody was doing anything under official auspices, so the legality of their actions isn't important.

Could you elaborate more ? I am pretty sure Yuuna and the Takemikazuchi fleet is in the middle of military works representing Orb government. One thing for sure, you always claim that AA is Orb's ship. So, could you give me an example an incident (not a civil war case) where you have a navy ships (from some nation) who deliberately attacks another ship form the same navy but the navy still claim that the action are acknowledged by the Navy?

Not really. If it's unwritten, it's probably not a rule of engagement.

You can say that it is an unwritten rule. But it is a general unwritten rules followed by most countries. If it is not followed properly, it will cause negative reactions from other countires.

It's quite possible in civil war situations

I am not talking about civil war since Orb is definitely not in civil war.

Heck, isn't that what "that's how they gained symphaty before they did the cruel things" means?

Still the propaganda works. Indonesian did help Japanese since they believe in their propaganda. They manage to make people believe that Japanes came to liberate Indonesia from Netherland (well technically they did except that there was a continuation that Japanese will in turn become the new ruler )

Not too surprisingly, there's no mention of how countries are supposed to declare war in any of these documents. I suggest you look up the relevant documents before making any more baseless assumptions.

I don't care about the real grievance. I just want to show you on how disappointed some nations were with Saddam's decision to invade Kuwait while they are not in all-out war. That's why I take Indonesia's reaction toward the Kuwait's invasion and compared it to Iraq's invasion to Iran. I am pretty sure Indonesia will not like his neighbour like Australia to suddenly invade our territory. We have small conflict in our border, but as long as it is not a war, Indonesia will not invade Australia coz it is a coward action and neither will Australia.

I'm afraid that you've misinterpreted my statements. Air superiority in Europe did play an important role; however, it's effectiveness is often overstated and their influence is a bit different than might be imagined. In any case, air superiority would have helped the Germans less at Normandy than having a couple of extra Panzer divisions

Similar thing will happen with extra Panzers division. Even if they have a nextra panzer, it can only prolong the battle, nothing more. Germany lost because they lack man-power and materials.
Also, the aircraft did alot of small unnoticed things that can't be recorded by statistical stuff, but they were important. That's one of the reason why America started to firther realize on how important it is to create a special ground support attack aircraft. You probably notice on how A10 is the only aircraft exculively used by US.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.

Coz I don't get it on how you claim that the resistance's efforts in blowing up the communication line doesn't help much of Allies' advancement.

And how could he do that in 2007, when it was largely Chretien who made the decision in 2002?

It is to justify his reasoning why it is important to keep Canadian's involvement in Afgan . He is facing a pressure from some people to pull Canadian soldier from their mission.

Quite a few Americans bought it, but that's about it.

Really

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by coba

You claimed that people will only follow the winner. It is not true at all. I just take an example on how desert people are brave enough to fight those EA (in GSD) and Zaft (in GS) because they know how ruthless noth EA and Zaft are respectively. The problem we are facing right now is that those desert people in GSD think that Dullindal is a good guy / their saviour while Orb is a supporter of Orb. We all know that it is not true, but if no one stands up and says otherwise, those desert people will never know the truth.

Huh? When did I ever say that people would only follow the winner? The most I ever said was that, in general, people were more likely to back a winner, and that they were unlikely to back the side that was certain to lose. I'm not sure how any of what you posted refutes that statement.

Originally Posted by coba

It is not only related to other earth's nation. It is also related to Plant . If Lacus can proof that what Dullindal did is "bad", I bet there will be some counsil members who will also try to stop Dullindal (e.g Canaver (sp ?) revolts against Patrick Zala and co. in Seed)

She didn't need "council members"; she had her own supporters within the ranks of ZAFT itself, and they turned on Durandal. Moreover, Durandal had changed the stakes so that there was no such thing as a political situation.

Originally Posted by coba

Because they are not skeptical. People who are skeptical. Skeptical people will have doubt on DP and likely reject it. However, in ep 48, the report in Orb clearly states that most nations are confused on what effect DP will create and what are the advanatges/disadvantages of DP. You can even see that most Minerva's crew are discussing about the DP each other and they didn't react against it at all. That's why I only point out Talia as skeptical person since she clearly doubts Dullindal's intention.

Beside AA, and Talia, (and Luna to some extent) who feels skeptical about Dullindal ? If your claim is true, then there should be at least one person from Plant's counsil member who are against Dullindal (just like Canaver in seed) or even worse, someone tries to argue with Dullindal in his fortress (just like a person who shot Patrick Zala) . No one in ZAFT are against him or even question his motive. ZAFT soldiers like Arthus, Youlan, etc are definitely confused. Remember in ep 49 on how those ZAFT commanders use the reason that Orb is the remnant of Logos. Why ? Because they feel skeptical toward Logos (Orb) more than toward Dullindal.

Wrong. People who are skeptical will first stop and think about the implication of what Durandal said. Their first response will likely be inaction. Orb and Scandinavia probably had foreknowledge of the Destiny Plan, so they could plan their response ahead of time. That's exactly what we saw.

Everyone had doubts, and their reactions reflected it. Try naming a single character who bought into it wholeheartedly.

Originally Posted by coba

Not necessarily true. Nobody oppresses people in Aceh. But they want their independence cause they want to built a country based on Muslim ideology. Similarly, in sout America in CE universe, they are against EA coz they want to be separated from EA. There is no indication that EA oppress them in Destiny Astray.

It's not a question of whether there's strictly any oppression going on, but whether the people feel that they're oppressed. This feeling may or may not be based on fact.

Originally Posted by coba

No, it means Cagalli already lost all of his authority. If she is still has authority, no one dares to shoot at her. I will believe you if you can give me one example where a soldier is shooting at a president in front of the public but he is still considered as part of military ? <-- I will accept your explanation if you can answer this question. Also, I am not talking about the situation where you have civil war since Orb is definitely not in the sate of civil war.

Nope. She lost her power, not her authority. In Destiny, the fighting between the Orb fleet and Archangel wasn't public at all. It was in a far corner of the world where nobody was watching. As a real-world comparison, a much more public display would be Yeltsin's tanks shelling the Russian Parliament in 1993. Like with Orb, Russia wasn't in a full-blown civil war, but it wasn't that far from one.

Originally Posted by coba

Yes, it is quite straightforward. Cagalli no longer has an authority in Orb in ep 23 (I am not talking about ep 43). In fact, those Orb soldier no longer respect her as Orb's leader. At that point, she no longer represents Orb's government especially since Yuuna can order

Incorrect. Cagalli was still the titular Representative of Orb, and the troops respected her quite a bit. Hence, she very much represented Orb's government. The only thing that she lost was her power. As I said earlier, it was in the Seirans' interest to have her as a figurehead, and they'd lose out if they tried to remove her title.

Originally Posted by coba

Could you elaborate more ? I am pretty sure Yuuna and the Takemikazuchi fleet is in the middle of military works representing Orb government. One thing for sure, you always claim that AA is Orb's ship. So, could you give me an example an incident (not a civil war case) where you have a navy ships (from some nation) who deliberately attacks another ship form the same navy but the navy still claim that the action are acknowledged by the Navy?

Uh... my point was that they [i]weren't doing anything officially.

Originally Posted by coba

I am not talking about civil war since Orb is definitely not in civil war.

Perhaps, but what kept it from being one was the intensity of the conflict, not the political situation. Alternatively, a mutiny can have similar consequences.



Off-topic:

Originally Posted by coba

You can say that it is an unwritten rule. But it is a general unwritten rules followed by most countries. If it is not followed properly, it will cause negative reactions from other countires.

Correction: you're the one that said that it's an unwritten rule. In general, a transgression of an unwritten rules carries little consequence, especially from other countries.

Originally Posted by coba

I don't care about the real grievance. I just want to show you on how disappointed some nations were with Saddam's decision to invade Kuwait while they are not in all-out war. That's why I take Indonesia's reaction toward the Kuwait's invasion and compared it to Iraq's invasion to Iran. I am pretty sure Indonesia will not like his neighbour like Australia to suddenly invade our territory. We have small conflict in our border, but as long as it is not a war, Indonesia will not invade Australia coz it is a coward action and neither will Australia.

I'm afraid that you're going to have to cite your source. Moreover, I don't think that Indonesia's opinion of the Kuwait invasion is particularly important compared to the rest of the world's view. I'll reiterate that the world's opinion had absolutely nothing to do with declarations of war, and you should have no difficulty in looking up my sources.

Originally Posted by coba

Similar thing will happen with extra Panzers division. Even if they have a nextra panzer, it can only prolong the battle, nothing more. Germany lost because they lack man-power and materials.

In the first week of Normandy? A well-orchestrated attack with extra divisions might have collapsed one of the beachheads.

Originally Posted by coba

Also, the aircraft did alot of small unnoticed things that can't be recorded by statistical stuff, but they were important. That's one of the reason why America started to firther realize on how important it is to create a special ground support attack aircraft. You probably notice on how A10 is the only aircraft exculively used by US.

Are you kidding me? The U.S. Air Force hates the A-10, and they've been trying to kill it for years. The reason why other countries don't field it is because they have no real need for it - the A-10 is too inflexible for anything other close air support. And the countries that are interested in it can buy the Su-25 instead.

Originally Posted by coba

Coz I don't get it on how you claim that the resistance's efforts in blowing up the communication line doesn't help much of Allies' advancement.

It doesnt. The Resistance's main efforts were expended a full month before the Allies managed to break out of Normandy (Operation Cobra started on July 25).

Originally Posted by coba

It is to justify his reasoning why it is important to keep Canadian's involvement in Afgan . He is facing a pressure from some people to pull Canadian soldier from their mission.

Well, what is it supposed to be, the reason to not participate in Iraq in 2003, or the reason to keep Canada in Afghanistan in 2007?

Originally Posted by coba

Really

Yep. In the last few polls, a large portion of Americans (around 50% if I recall correctly) still associate Saddam Hussein with Osama bin Laden.

[D a m i e n]

4tran and coba i really think you should hook up RL.

[Eidolon Sniper]

@ 4Tran and coba

I'm pretty sure you guys have a lot to talk about in this thread, but as always, there are the spoiler tags...they're put in there for a reason...or Mr. Paper might trim this thread down to size...^^;; and if you still want to talk about it, there is always the PM...

[wingdarkness]

^Ah...Mr_ Paper...Where could he be??

No way in God's name could I begin to even attempt to read whatever that is they're talking about...But I bet it's pretty much what they want...

[Crusader]

Well i couldn't even keep up with most of this, and i doubt any of this has anything to do with black and white. For shame 4Tran i thought you knew better than that.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Crusader

Well i couldn't even keep up with most of this, and i doubt any of this has anything to do with black and white. For shame 4Tran i thought you knew better than that.

I for one think 4-chan is doing a great job arguing for something I agree with. Fight-on!
(will rep you again when I can)

[4Tran]

I guess I got a little carried away there. However, this thread is about "black and white" as pertaining to character's actions and options, so the stuff I didn't label as off-topic is still quite relevant. If you want to see the thread progress differently, then I suggest that you do so by contributing your thoughts. Only coba and I have seemed to have been interested in that in the last week or so, so I can't see a whole lot of cause for complaint.


Off-topic:
By the way, Mr. Paper hasn't posted at Animesuki for over six months so I don't think that we'll see him any time soon. I do hope that he's doing okay, and that we'll see him here again.

Oh, and Vallen Chaos Valiant, I picked my handle long before I ever heard of 4chan. Its origin is a much older computing term.

[JagdPanther]

Fortran ftw. ^_^

Though I'm more of a C++ guy... Probably because that's the only higher-level code that I know.

Anyway....

Destiny didn't make much sense to me in terms of the Gray-Area thought. I don't think that there is wide acceptance that there was any good in the EA in Destiny. That made it pretty black and white to me... Except ZAFT was definitely had some less-than-stellar points to it. Yet EA seemed totally evil...

I guess it was gray-area, but the writers tried to make the EA totally unlikable. SEED seemed much more of a gray-area show to me.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Oh, and Vallen Chaos Valiant, I picked my handle long before I ever heard of 4chan. Its origin is a much older computing term.

Oops!
Sorry, that was just a typing error on my part. I was in the middle of my exams at the time and didn't pay attention...