2010-09-10, 02:07 | Link #1 |
Onee!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Auckland, NZ
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Embryonic stemcell research
Well in our biology class recently we were learning about gene technology and it seems that stem cell research is both the fastest developing field of research as well as being one of the most controversial. While the potential benefits are widespread, there have been many issues raised such as the 'right to life' and whether or not an embryo is at that point an actual 'person'.
With the recent lifting of restrictions on funding for research in the USA, it is possible that research will take off now that it can be performed openly and in a wider array of facilities. Of course adult stem cell research is also progressing, but there are greater possibilities with embryonic stem cells due to their natural pluripotency. Overall I think the issue was summed up pretty nicely by this cartoon our teacher provided (and which was also conveniently on the net): Personally my view is if it hasn't got a brain it doesn't have any feelings yet- a bit of a double standard I suppose, as I am also Christian and pretty anti-abortion, but my view is that as long as there are potential benefits with only hypothetical ethical issues there should be no problems. But there you go. So what do you guys think?
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2010-09-10, 02:18 | Link #2 |
I don't give a damn, dude
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Despair
Age: 38
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I think this will start like the Abortion thread before it, with liberals and faithheads arguing over what constitutes a "baby", and end with me throwing the Book of Fallacies at the faithheads, causing them to raeg hard because of it.
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2010-09-10, 02:51 | Link #4 | |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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A lot of research are focusing and jumping the gun on embryonic stem cell research mostly because of: 1. Higher pluripotential capacity of embryonic line stem cells for differentiation. In other words, these cells have a greater ability to differentiate and specialize to serve the needs of the problem in question. At least compared to the ones found in adults. 2. Relatively easier... way of getting the cells from an embryo rather than getting your stem cells from an adult. It's a lot easier to take some cells from a month-old embryo than say aspirating some from adult bone marrow and picking out the viable ones. 3. And yes, you can get embryos just about anywhere. It's easier to just pump out embryos from "baby factories" than to study the potential uses of stem cells from adult tissue. I have never and will never support the explicit use of embryos for the sole purpose of stem cell pharming. If you had to use embryos for research and/or treatment, you could at least take ones that have naturally aborted rather than telling entire groups of people to go procreate just to have embryos and fetuses for scientific research. There is still so much potential in using and researching pluripotential stem cells from adult tissue to throw in the towel to immediately favor embryonic stem cell research. At the very least it doesn't involve the death of a distinct cellular organism (so as to avoid the subjectivity of using the term "life"), and you could easily avoid the ethical questions and pitfalls the previous research is always going to generate elsewhere. @Seitsuki TvTropes is probably not a good reference link for the subjectivity of the begnnings of human life.
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2010-09-10, 03:12 | Link #5 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Australia
Age: 32
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2010-09-10, 03:27 | Link #6 | |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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Bone-marrow transplantation. To cut out the medical terminology, it's essentially the same: after you nuke out the diseased bone marrow with radiation, you replace it with bone marrow from a donor, which is basically transplanting someone else' hematopoietic stem cells (RBC, WBC and platelet precursors) into your bone marrow to replace the diseases blood cells you have. This concept of replacing diseased/dead tissue with cells that will eventually transform to replace it is the core concept of stem cell implantation, which boggles me that we've successfully been doing it to treat advanced leukemia for years but now people are shying away from it in favor of the easy way out.
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2010-09-10, 04:04 | Link #7 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Australia
Age: 32
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2010-09-10, 04:06 | Link #8 |
Onee!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Auckland, NZ
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Meo, I do believe that most embryos in use for reasearch atm are surplus embryos from fertility treatments such as IVF. Not sure if they're "donated" with permission or not, but fairly certain they don't have factories filled with vats of eggs swimming in sperm pumping out embyros
Whilst it is true that pluripotency can be engineered in adult stem cells, the main method being used (using viruses to introduce the DNA sequences into the cell genes) carries dangers with it (other stuff may be introduced/altered that you don't want yet may not pick up on.) I do believe that safer methods are being developed but it's still a work in progress, leaving adult cells being mainly used for multipotent purposes and embryos still the main source of pluripotent research.
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2010-09-10, 04:18 | Link #9 |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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I guess fertility treatment surpluses of non-viable embryos are fine. It's just that I really dislike the baby factory method of supplying embryos for the sole purpose of embryo research. I find it extremely dehumanizing.
Embryos will always have the advantage of not needing induction into the pluripotential state which will always be its advantage over adult lines. A recent popular source of embryonic stem cells have shifted towards the fetal placenta. The placenta still maintains a lot of pluripotentiality in the tissue more in line with embryonic lines than adult lines, even when the fetus has reached term. Plus, it's not like anyone has any objections with a placenta. Heck it's being touted as a beautifying treatment by having placental cells replace aging and dying skin to make you look younger. If it works on the face then maybe you could make it work elsewhere.
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2010-09-10, 04:26 | Link #10 |
Onee!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Auckland, NZ
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Mm, but then there are problems with that as well.
The idea of using adult stem cells is that they are cells from your own body and therefore have a far lower rejection rate. Using stem cells from the placenta therefore cuts out pre-pubescent girls, women past menopause and uhm every single man. Or of course you could use donated placentas, but then the whole rejection issue crops up again. Which raises another question: what will the source of those placentas be? It wouldn't be too hard for hospitals to ask women if they don't mind donating their placenta, but then there are problems with transport and compatibility or diseases which would require screening and that just adds complications. Although of course if it's just for research there wouldn't be as many problems I suppose.
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2010-09-10, 05:10 | Link #12 | |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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2010-09-10, 06:00 | Link #13 |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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About whether or not it's okay to use embryos for stem cell research if it kills the embryo, honestly, I don't think this debate will ultimately get anywhere since it depends entirely upon a persons belief of whether or not the embryo has the value of a human life: An entirely subjective viewpoint and the criteria we use to judge this can themselves be controversal topics in their own right. I'm more concerned with getting people to understand the other viewpoint better so that there's no needless conflict.
Anyway, as a muslim, I believe that the embryo in the stage used for Stem Cell research doesn't have the value of a life equivalent to a human being so I don't think there is anything wrong in doing this research, especially if this research has a potential to cure diseases. And if they are surplus embryos from fertility treatments then they're not going to become human beings anyway so their potential for human life is removed. Though like Meo, I am concerned about this method being abused. I don't like the idea of using embryos for the sole purpose of stem cell research either.
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2010-09-10, 06:05 | Link #14 | |
Rawrrr!
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: CH aka Chocaholic Heaven
Age: 40
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Now regarding the bone-marrow, adult stem cell and embryonic stem cell research. I see a little confusion, or at least imprecision in the exchanges above. First, bone marrow is a transplant, generally involving a live donor, which has to be compatible, and is generally assumed to be consenting. Of course in this category we could expand the debate on the potential minefield of discussing the issue of designer babies: conceived, selected and born for the expressed purpose of providing a transplant (bone marrow, or umbilical cord blood) in order to save a sibling (done in Europe, dunno about America). Adult stem cell research, on the other hand, is more geared toward the self transplant approach, and its obvious compatibility benefits: it's all about regrowing you own tissues. Of course, some would want to extend to this approach the benefits of embyonic stem cells (greater versatility), by developing therapeutic human cloning. Now, on embryonic stem cells research: it is conduced mainly on a few lines of stem cells, i e cultures of stem cells kept in a pluripotent state, and derived from a few IVF-surplus embryos. The focus of the research is mainly about understanding cell specialization in order to reconstitute tissue. And the limitations so far have been precisely on the creation of new lines (which are expensive to develop). For the same reason we do not do random organ transplant, use of embryonic stem cells face huge problems. So far their purpose is mainly on pure research: understanding how tissue specialize and develop. Thus, claiming that so many illnesses will be cured with embryonic stem cells research, for me is akin to those 50's talks on nuclear-everything technologies. The big ethic problem nowadays, is that for embryonic stem cells therapies to truly answer the promises which have been made, that would essentially imply short circuiting the designer baby approach: purposely conceiving and selecting a precise embryo for a therapy. Another approach, with bigger ethical issues, is of course the one of therapeutical human cloning: creating you own clone embryo to use it's stem cells.
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2010-09-10, 06:49 | Link #15 | |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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One of the purported advantages of stem cells is that some supposedly do not present surface antigens that allografted hosts can recognize as foreign and thus mount an immune response against it, which gives us the usual organ rejection scenario. From this idea it would theoretically do away with the need to Human Leukocyte Antigen matching, which makes grafting/transplanting less risky and matching all the more easy.
Though I read that in some journal a few years back so don't quote me on it. In the as JMvS says the safest way for organ and tissue grafting will always be from the self because of the absence of tissue rejection since they will recognize the tissue as from the self. The most you'll likely see is a local inflammatory reaction. Quote:
Now we have multiple drug resistant tuberculosis on the rise, resistant against Isoniazid and Rifampin, the two most effective (and cheapest!) anti-TB drugs on the market. You have Methicillin resistant S. aureus on the rise, making them resistant to the penicillin/beta-lactam class of drugs, which eliminates almost half the effective drugs used to treat it. Even malaria is becoming resistant to the quinine series drugs. There's a lot of hype surrounding stem cell research but again, hype is hype, and it's only once the scientific consensus comes in that we'll know the truth of what they can do. As it stands it's simply prudent not to let all the hype take control and then everyone feels let down once we realize that stem cells can't do everything we thought they can do. There is no such thing as the wonder drug and the cure-all as long as the battle between humans and disease is a war. And war? War never chan- *is shot with a Gauss Rifle*
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2010-09-10, 09:48 | Link #16 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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You don't have to be "liberal" to be scientific about it... but its a non-starter for that faction of people who emotionally believe there's a soul assigned to a two-cell zygote on initiation. I tend to fall into the "is there a functioning nervous system yet" group and view termination after that point as a 'choice of last resort' for the woman that should be available. Its an option practiced by many species (though in their case, its usually after birth).
Stem cell research of all kinds offer possibilities - without studying the possibilities none can be realized. I'm betting self-cloning of organs wins out on the transplant front... and it may be that use of one's own stem cells enhanced is the best outcome for fixing various human ailments. We're seeing how the US has basically screwed itself over while the rest of the world leaped ahead in research. Of course, we're seeing the same leapfrogging by others in telecommunications and green energies - thanks to various forms of resistance to changing the status quo. Quote:
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2010-09-10, 10:06 | Link #17 | |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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I'll bet you my future medical practice that the benefits of stem cell research will majorly benefit the rich and extravagant, and Big Pharma will likely attempt to keep patents in their complete control for a good many years.
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2010-09-10, 10:31 | Link #18 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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Yeah, I was thinking more of the super-bugs we're "creating" in tech-advanced countries where we use anti-biotics as seasoning, wallpaint, and fashion wear. They're not really "super-bugs"... just bugs that evolved around the killzone of present anti-biotics and the pharma corps see no profit in addressing them. There's all that Cialis competing stuff to develop... much more profitable.
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2010-09-10, 10:52 | Link #19 | |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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Stem cell research won't make much of a difference in life unless there are test subjects willing to put their lives on the line of science. In that case, I would think that cybernetic augmentations and nanotech-medicine will come faster than any form of genetic engineering. Still, the best motivation for stem-cell research is still to genetically engineer cat-girls with zerg bio-architecture, making them stuck at the age of just-post maturity (16-20).
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2010-09-10, 11:15 | Link #20 | |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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Back on topic, it's actually going to be a bit tricky on making patents on stem cell products because the ultimate source of the stem cells are still going to be human cells, and lest I be mistaken there is no way in hell a patent over a human being (or product thereof) is going to pass without controversy. The most they can probably do is patent the process, but aren't likely to have a patent on the actual cell "product" in question.
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