[GS/GSD]coordinators and naturals

[dimdog]

Hi, i've been wondering something.
We all know that coordinators have better reactions, brains, etc, then naturals, right? So why are Windams relatively equal to Zakus, and why are the pilots of the Daggers and such also relatively equal to the Coordinators? can someone please try to explain this to me?

It was impossible to search for a previous thread due to "natural" and "coordinator" being used on litterally every post (almost).

[kikko_s]

Originally Posted by dimdog

Hi, i've been wondering something.
We all know that coordinators have better reactions, brains, etc, then naturals, right? So why are Windams relatively equal to Zakus, and why are the pilots of the Daggers and such also relatively equal to the Coordinators? can someone please try to explain this to me?

It was impossible to search for a previous thread due to "natural" and "coordinator" being used on litterally every post (almost).

Even among coordinators, there's varying degree of talents. Kira and Athrun being an example of the best of the best. Coordinators are just humans with modified genes for stuff. So it depends on what your genes were modified for...and that's just if you're a 1st generation. Even then, if your genes were modified so you were good at basketball, but you never practice, you'll still be bad.

If you're 2nd generation, you basically just inherit whatever your parents had. Also, I think coordinators are all modified so that they aren't succeptible to the same kind of illnesses as naturals. Their immune systems are better.

Naturals are just like us...you're get what you get. Some people are better suited for athletics, some are better suited for academia. But if you're a coordinator, you can modify your genes so you're good at both.

Anyway...so conceivably, a natural who was just born good at fighting and stuff could fight a coordinator and stand toe to toe (I.E. Mwu LaFlaga). The thing is, in PLANT, if you're genes are good for fighting, they'll put you in ZAFT. If your genes are good at science and math, they'll put you in a lab. That sort of thing...apparently Kira's the ultimate coordinator so he can do anything and everything.

I think it also may have something to do with the operating system that controls the mobile suits. Coordinators can use much more complex stuff than naturals. A good analogy would be... ZAFT mobile suits run on Linux, EA mobile suits run on Windows. But they both pretty much do the same thing.

[[DOT].L]

the producers do not want the show/story to be too one sided.. if u just have naturals dying then the story gets boring and repetitive and thats not good for ratings..

[Scherazade]

That's mostly right, but no one is put in ZAFT. ZAFT is a volunteer militia. If you don't want to join, you don't have to. No one in PLANT is "assigned" to do any certain task. PLANT is just where most coordinators live, it isn't as regimented as you might think.

Ease of use on ms depends on the operating system. The naturals use an OS designed in part by Professor Jean Carrey and in part by the Alliance's combat coordinator program. The OS in use by Orb and the Three Ship Alliance is made primarily by Kira Yamato. The main difference between a coordinator and natural OS seems to be the amount of automation in the operation of the system. A coordinator OS seems to require faster reflexes than the natural OS.

One important thing to remember though is that an OS doesn't know if the pilot is a coordinator or a natural. A natural can use a machine with a coordinator OS, but it's a rare occasion. Lowe Gear does it in Astray when he pilots Blue Frame. Rau Le Creuset is also probably a natural, he states it in episode 43, I believe, to Flay [of course it depends how literally you want to take what Creuset says: "I am a normal human being" could be a mistranslation by the sub group]. However, since he is the clone of a natural, there is no indication that his genese have been modified.

[pyu]

You can read about how the enimity between Naturals and Coordinators started at other sites. Its quite dumb really, if George Glenn had kept his trap shut, nothing would have happened. Obviously, the First Coordinator was not a student of human nature.

[Raxtenko]

I would just like to note that it is possible that not every coordinater receives the full-five star gene mod. treatment. Presumably the doctors that performed the procedure on the first coordinaters charged an arm and a leg for the procedure, and it is possible that a few people would opt for the economy gene packages.

Btw, I'm pretty sure, too lazy to check my sources though, that Elijah Kiel from the Astray manga doesn't have coordinater relfexes and strength, so yeah if I'm right there's my point.

[Dark Crusader]

kikko_s is correct dimdog (well except for the ZAFT militia thing which Scherazade ellaberated on) there are varring degrees to coordinator talents and human talents it's just that the seed universe seems to ignore the naturals for the most part.

But since Seed draws heavily upon earlier gundam continuities we can look at them for a better example. The UC is chalk full of Normal people who can mop the floor with most Newtype pilots (unless they're main characters then they're invincible). For example:

Gundam 0079: The Black TriStars, The Guy who shows of the Gouf 1st time, Dozol Zabi, Macuve all give Amuro a run for his money.

Gundam 0080: There are no Newtypes to speak of. The gundam falls to an every day zaku.

Gundam 0083: Once again all of the main char MS/MA pilots are normal humans.

8th MS Team: Still just every day humans.

I really don't the fact that the seed universe ignores the natural pilots and makes look like they're all nothing but incompetent morons.

[kikko_s]

Gomenasai...haha. I forgot ZAFT was a volunteer army. Of course what I intended to say was that those with the greatest talent in fighting are the people who wear Red. Although I'm not so sure that's true. Lunamaria wears red and she's got worse aim than at least one natural (Cagalli).

If I remember, Cagalli actually hit a moving Athrun from pretty far away.

[pyu]

You must remember that a large portion of both ZAFT and EA forces were wiped out in the battles starting from the destruction of JOSH-A.

For ZAFT, it went down hill for them from JOSH-A, where over 80% of their assualt forces were destroyed by the Cyclops system. Subsequently, they lost control of Victoria and in the space battles, we also have the climatic battle of Yakin Due.

For the EA, a large portion of their forces were destroyed at Panama and also when Genesis took out the entire moon base with one shot. A large part of their experienced leadership were also killed at Yakin Due.

For the cynical, you might call the signing of the Junius Treaty as nothing more as a stop gap as both the PLANTs and the Earth Alliance sought to rearm, retrain and fill their ranks once again.

Lunamaria and Shinn might wear the elite red, but it means nothing really when you compare them to Kira, Athrun (arguably the two best MS pilots in the SEED universe) and company.

[Mgz]

anyone know the population of PLANT and EA? Equatorial Alliance? ORB?

and anyknow how many Stampeders does Plant have? I have the impression from the chairman that they have ONLY one system . Come on, it is just a regular -class ship with couple glass shields... Everyone singles PLANT colony/city (12 of'em) should have at least one.... it is not that hard to build with current PLANT technology, right?


and arhhh, the show get boring already... it is not a fair fight at all, Yzak and Dreaka alone OWN EA big time...come on, bring some druggies, EA, so the shooting can last at least for 10s..plz..

And BTW what the point to have the mother ship? The Orange Zaku took one down just by firing 2 or 3 regular everage joe green beams (equivalent to AK-47 fighter takes down a M1 Abram)... the damn thing should at least hanging there fighting for a while (like those in Last Exile)..grhhh

[Scherazade]

Originally Posted by Mgz

anyone know the population of PLANT and EA? Equatorial Alliance? ORB?

and anyknow how many Stampeders does Plant have? I have the impression from the chairman that they have ONLY one system . Come on, it is just a regular -class ship with couple glass shields... Everyone singles PLANT colony/city (12 of'em) should have at least one.... it is not that hard to build with current PLANT technology, right?

It's unknown how many Stampeders they have. It probably wasn't produced heavily because it was never tested until the nuclear strike was launched by the Earth Alliance. Also, there's a bit more involved than just some glass shields. I don't even think they were made of glass.

and arhhh, the show get boring already... it is not a fair fight at all, Yzak and Dreaka alone OWN EA big time...come on, bring some druggies, EA, so the shooting can last at least for 10s..plz..

Yzak and Dearka are two people, they can't be everywhere at once. Not only that, Kira alone owned everyone in the first series, so I don't really see your point. ZAFT and the Earth Alliance are primarily filled with the ranks of relatively inexperienced pilots. The pilots that have recieved ZAKUs are likely survivors of the last war. They're going to be better than the average newbie pilot. As the saying goes: in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

And BTW what the point to have the mother ship? The Orange Zaku took one down just by firing 2 or 3 regular everage joe green beams (equivalent to AK-47 fighter takes down a M1 Abram)... the damn thing should at least hanging there fighting for a while (like those in Last Exile)..grhhh

Well, transport is the primary reason to have capital ships. However, to cite them being destroyed by a beam rifle shot is an error in judgement. Beams cut through anything, a handful of beam rifle shots is really all you need to take out a ship. The comparison to a machine gun against a tank is not valid, because an Ak-47 bullet isn't sufficient to puncture armo. A beam rifle blast has been shown to be able to punturce most types of armor in won shot. When it comes to beams, there are slight variations in power, but it's important to remember that even a "weak" beam can still punch through ordinary armor with no trouble.

[SuperKnuckles]

Originally Posted by Mgz

and anyknow how many Stampeders does Plant have? I have the impression from the chairman that they have ONLY one system . Come on, it is just a regular -class ship with couple glass shields... Everyone singles PLANT colony/city (12 of'em) should have at least one.... it is not that hard to build with current PLANT technology, right?


and arhhh, the show get boring already... it is not a fair fight at all, Yzak and Dreaka alone OWN EA big time...come on, bring some druggies, EA, so the shooting can last at least for 10s..plz..

I feel the same frustration when it comes to the realism in Gundam series myself, but Gundam anime as a whole were never about realism anyway.

As for the few coordinators defeating EA forces all the time, I agree that the premise is getting a bit thin atleast in my book. Sure, coordinators are supposed to be superior humans, just like Zeon soldiers were compared to the Federation soldiers, but in Mobile Suit Gundam, the fight seemed a bit more fair on how well normal humans held out in a battle.

And personally, I wish the goodie-two-shoes part of the Earth Alliance surfaces and goes against Blue Cosmos. That faction will probably end up being Orb again (Which is funny, since it's assumed that most people of Orb are enhanced humans as well) , but I'd rather see normal humans win in underdog situations than some beefed up Newtypes, Druggies and Coordinators taking the stage for themselves. But then again, enhanced humans have almost always taken the center stage in Gundam series.

[Raxtenko]

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

I feel the same frustration when it comes to the realism in Gundam series myself, but Gundam anime as a whole were never about realism anyway.

As for the few coordinators defeating EA forces all the time, I agree that the premise is getting a bit thin atleast in my book. Sure, coordinators are supposed to be superior humans, just like Zeon soldiers were compared to the Federation soldiers, but in Mobile Suit Gundam, the fight seemed a bit more fair on how well normal humans held out in a battle.

And personally, I wish the goodie-two-shoes part of the Earth Alliance surfaces and goes against Blue Cosmos. That faction will probably end up being Orb again (Which is funny, since it's assumed that most people of Orb are enhanced humans as well) , but I'd rather see normal humans win in underdog situations than some beefed up Newtypes, Druggies and Coordinators taking the stage for themselves. But then again, enhanced humans have almost always taken the center stage in Gundam series.

Go watch Gundam X, if you want to see a normal human beat on a Newtype. Seriously though you raise a valid point, some naturals have aleady proven that they can be just as good, if not better, than coordinaters.

It would be interesting to see naturals as the focus of the series, instead of super-coordinaters that can do anything. *cough*Marysue*cough*

[neodrag38]

Originally Posted by Raxtenko

Go watch Gundam X, if you want to see a normal human beat on a Newtype. Seriously though you raise a valid point, some naturals have aleady proven that they can be just as good, if not better, than coordinaters.

It would be interesting to see naturals as the focus of the series, instead of super-coordinaters that can do anything. *cough*Marysue*cough*

I also find it annoying that we are at most times stuck with "perfect" coordinators that always pwn everyone.

Why is it that a Gundam Seed Astray anime wasn't made; as in a full fledge series instead of just 2 short OVAs? I would think that such a great manga series would be adapted into being an anime series instead of us stuck with what looks like a repeat of the original Gundam Seed with characters that are basically the same, as in being coordinators and the whole crying thing.

I would enjoy seeing a Gundam Seed anime where the main character isn't some super human, along with this character acting like more like a normal guy who doesn't cry like every one or two eps.

[kikko_s]

Well, it's like Athrun said. "You can't go to war with a smile on your face."

No one who goes to war, wether he be incredible on the battlefield or just a normal grunt, goes through the experience and still be normal. If you went through weeks, months, and years on end...not knowing if you or your friends will survive the next day...it'll take its toll.

But I agree about having more focus on naturals. They should definitely be able to hold their own more often, and not just have a few (like Mwu...who died anyway) be on par with them. Man, I had to watch ep. 49 again...Mwu got pretty good in the short time he had Strike. He could dodge all the remote beam lasers...well, for awhile at least. But yeah, even just to survive underdog situations, instead of making them all look like assholes that just nuke others without thought.

Like I said before, coordinators are just humans who've been modified to have some talents or advantages that naturals don't have...i.e., beautiful features, increase in intellectual capacity, increase in athletic ability. Even then, sometimes the increase won't be that much. Remember, that 1st generation coordinators still take genes from their parents. It's not like the babies are being made from scratch. You're still taking the basic "building block" genes from the parents, but only taking the best genes, the best talents--- the ones that help to create a unique individual, while modifying ones that increase immunity and physical health as well. So technically, naturals and coordinators shouldn't be that vastly different.

[ZeusIrae]

Are you sure it'sonly that?I had the impression that they made more modifications.
Of course it's the most realistic explaination but I had the impression that they could add new genes.

[JokerD]

Well, coordinators are supposed to have better reflexes and can better withstand g-forces so I guess they should have better perforance than the average EA trooper. And if the troops of the other side are all of better breed than your's and only your aces can match them then it's natural for them to kill more of your troops. Also troops in defence especally of their homeland generally fight better.
If you want to see EA troops defeating ZAFT, go see the Parnama assault, EA the Daggers were winning until the EMP weapon.

[Scherazade]

The main reason the Earth soldiers get decimated for most of the series has more to do with inferior weaponry rather than the operators being inferior. Even with the disadvantage, naturals did ok. Morgan Chevalier was a tank commander and he mangaged to duke it out with Andrew Waltfeld and come out just fine. Anyway, until the Alliance started fielding the Daggers, they were using inferior equipment and that's why they were getting their asses handed to them. Had OS development progress faster [read: if the Alliance had more than a handful of coordinators, like Jean Carrey, and combat coordinators, Gai before he escaped and the Socius series, to develop a natural OS]the Dagger units would have been fielded much faster.

I have every reason to believe that the design for the Daggers was completed by around the time Archangel descended to Earth. Astray vol. 3 tells us that the M1 Astrays were in production before Heliopolis was destroyed, they just lacked an OS that naturals could easily use. There is very little reason, other than that the Alliance may not have had the facilities to build units like what Morgenroete can churn out, that the Daggers couldn't have been finished except for OS by the time that Archangel falls into the desert. The Azrael Conglomerate probably assists in cranking out the Dagger units.

Anyway, once the Atlantic Federation has weapons on par with ZAFT's weapons, the battlefield changes drastically. In one to one combat, a Dagger can crush a GINN. The only thing that keeps ZAFT ahead is that their pilots generally have more experience with their machines. ZAFT survivability rates were much higher than their Alliance counterparts [it took about 5 Mobius units to equl the combat strangth of 1 GINN]. As Phase 6 of Destiny shows us, experience goes a long way. The Alliance catches up eventually, in Destiny we see that Alliance pilots have aclimated to mobile suit combat quite well.

[ryogax]

Originally Posted by Scherazade

The main reason the Earth soldiers get decimated for most of the series has more to do with inferior weaponry rather than the operators being inferior. Even with the disadvantage, naturals did ok. Morgan Chevalier was a tank commander and he mangaged to duke it out with Andrew Waltfeld and come out just fine. Anyway, until the Alliance started fielding the Daggers, they were using inferior equipment and that's why they were getting their asses handed to them. Had OS development progress faster [read: if the Alliance had more than a handful of coordinators, like Jean Carrey, and combat coordinators, Gai before he escaped and the Socius series, to develop a natural OS]the Dagger units would have been fielded much faster.

I have every reason to believe that the design for the Daggers was completed by around the time Archangel descended to Earth. Astray vol. 3 tells us that the M1 Astrays were in production before Heliopolis was destroyed, they just lacked an OS that naturals could easily use. There is very little reason, other than that the Alliance may not have had the facilities to build units like what Morgenroete can churn out, that the Daggers couldn't have been finished except for OS by the time that Archangel falls into the desert. The Azrael Conglomerate probably assists in cranking out the Dagger units.

Anyway, once the Atlantic Federation has weapons on par with ZAFT's weapons, the battlefield changes drastically. In one to one combat, a Dagger can crush a GINN. The only thing that keeps ZAFT ahead is that their pilots generally have more experience with their machines. ZAFT survivability rates were much higher than their Alliance counterparts [it took about 5 Mobius units to equl the combat strangth of 1 GINN]. As Phase 6 of Destiny shows us, experience goes a long way. The Alliance catches up eventually, in Destiny we see that Alliance pilots have aclimated to mobile suit combat quite well.

I agree with everything you just said!

Its one of those moments!

[Raxtenko]

Originally Posted by Scherazade

Anyway, once the Atlantic Federation has weapons on par with ZAFT's weapons, the battlefield changes drastically. In one to one combat, a Dagger can crush a GINN. The only thing that keeps ZAFT ahead is that their pilots generally have more experience with their machines. ZAFT survivability rates were much higher than their Alliance counterparts [it took about 5 Mobius units to equl the combat strangth of 1 GINN]. As Phase 6 of Destiny shows us, experience goes a long way. The Alliance catches up eventually, in Destiny we see that Alliance pilots have aclimated to mobile suit combat quite well.

That's all true, but it doesn't change the fact that Kira was able to beat up military personnel that have hand to hand combat training, whereas he does not. Or the fact that he threw a gun and hit his target dead on. I think the main complaint is that the coordinaters that are the main focus of the show are too damn perfect, and are unrealistic.

Originally Posted by Scherazade

The main reason the Earth soldiers get decimated for most of the series has more to do with inferior weaponry rather than the operators being inferior. Even with the disadvantage, naturals did ok. Morgan Chevalier was a tank commander and he mangaged to duke it out with Andrew Waltfeld and come out just fine. Anyway, until the Alliance started fielding the Daggers, they were using inferior equipment and that's why they were getting their asses handed to them. Had OS development progress faster [read: if the Alliance had more than a handful of coordinators, like Jean Carrey, and combat coordinators, Gai before he escaped and the Socius series, to develop a natural OS]the Dagger units would have been fielded much faster.

Damn, that must have been impressive. I would much rather have seen Morgan and Andy dueling it out, instead of, oh I dunno, Kira and his overpowered MS, push my suspension of disbelief to its limit.