Gundam ZZ Discussion

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Rawinder

It is if one show is a direct sequel to another. Why do you think the Ewoks in Return of the Jedi got such a bad rap?

There are many different kinds of sequels. Just because a show directly follows up with another one, doesn't mean that it should do everything the same way.

In this case its especially true, because Gundam ZZ by all intents and purposes should have been Zeta 2, considering the fact that it aired directly after Zeta. But it isn't. The creators meant for it to be a different show with different tone. So no matter how you feel sequels should be, fact is that ZZ is a new show, features mostly a new cast and tells a new story that only has a tiny bit to do with the last one.

No, just a stupid kid.

Uso is by no means stupid though. He's one of the most creative pilots in the franchise.

I think I was pretty clear with what I was getting at, but I was half-joking anyway, so it's not like it's that big a point of contention for me.

Just because it had some different people working on it doesn't make it any less of a sequel. Like I said, the first episode of ZZ is entirely a recap of Zeta and the second episode picks up right after Zeta. If that's not an indication of ZZ being a sequel, I don't know what is.

ZZ is a sequel AND a new show. Its actually quite possible, believe it or not.

MSG was plenty serious too, it's not like Zeta is that much of a departure in tone; and personally, with the exception of the last handful of episodes, I didn't think Zeta was all that much darker anyway. And no, Zeta isn't "MSG Season 2," but that's because it came out several years afterward (and even with that gap in time, it was still consistent with MSG's characters). ZZ, on the other hand, started immediately after Zeta, which makes its inconsistencies with MSG/Zeta's characters all the more glaring.

MSG has plenty of silly moments and slap-stick. In fact it got quite bizarre sometimes. And no, it was no fan of melodrama, at least not to the level that Zeta did it.

And again, ZZ's characters were quite consistent with Zeta's. They were placed in a different situation, but that does not change their personalities no matter how you look at it.

I also find it hard to believe that Zeta was at all unpopular with viewers. All I've ever heard is praise for Zeta, many people calling it the best Gundam series. The fact that the movies were as successful as they were, 20 years after the series came out, is a testament to how popular the show is.

I am stating things that Tomino said when the Zeta movies were being made, which were offered as an explanation to why a number of changes were made in the movies. If you don't believe it I don't know what to say to you.

All I can say is that Zeta isn't considered the best series at all in its motherland. Why do you think there are so many RX-78/Zaku II models being made? So many spinoff OVAs and games of the OYW? Because the original MSG is.

The only change in how Char was depicted was that he became one of the "good guys" (and that has more to do with the show's role reversal in the Earth vs space conflict than anything else). The show never trampled over his character, or made him into the butt of jokes for the sake of some lame humor, the way ZZ did with its characters.

Right, which is why IMO you need to lighten up. Bright and Yazan's dignities aren't serious business, no matter how seriously you took Zeta.

Anyway, at this point I'm just repeating myself. I can't really make myself any clearer than I already have, and if you can't even acknowledge something as simple as ZZ being a sequel to Zeta, then there's no point in me continuing.

Of course I do. But you need to understand that a "sequel" does NOT mean the SAME EXACT SHOW, DIFFERENT NAME. ZZ does things differently from Zeta does NOT make it a bad show. You can point out various elements of it that may, but IMO, "disrespecting" characters or placing them in situations that they weren't in aren't it.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by brightman

That's not true though. The shift in tone in ZZ was planned from the beginning, and Tomino's original planned story for it doesn't vary much until way past the supposed "shift" to the more Zeta-like tone...

I was referring to the plot of ZZ changing; not its tone. I actually agree with you that the tone didn't shift all that much - although I do think that it was pretty uneven throughout the show.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

I actually thought Judau was one of the more "realistic" main characters in terms of piloting.

Amuro and Kamille (hell, even Uso) were taking out or at least matching some aces even early on in their respective series with what limited knowledge they had of things (Kamille with slightly more than Amuro), but Judau's early victories were more or less flukes and pure luck even though he DID, presumably, have more knowledge on MS in general from the get-go. (Being a Junk Dealer, he probably saw his fair share of busted MS that he could've looked at while also piloting middle-size MS for collecting and all.)

Not to mention making basic mistakes like forgetting to have the Zeta's beam rifle charged up before going into battle and such, lol.

He gained experience through his various battles against various Neo Zeon pilots, including dangerous ones like Puru and Puru Two which would help explain why he was able to fight so well against Haman. And considering Haman didn't really do much besides sit on the Command Ships and shout orders throughout ZZ, well, that'd cause anyone's skills to dull, if only slightly. We also can't forget that, compared to the Zeta Gundam in general, the ZZ is a BIG step up in each area of general performance while Haman is still using just the normal Qubeley. Sometimes MS performance CAN make up for difference in piloting skill. Amuro shows us that with the Gundam in MSG after all. Not to mention Judau has his own experience from fighting (slightly better) Qubeley's with Puru and Puru Two. Fighting even MORE powerful MS like the Psyco Gundam Mark II and the Quin Mantha and others would help too.




...and for the age difference thing...Uso and most of the Shrike Team? XD

[Nvis]

I was kind of when the new Argama was run by kids. Then I thought, no other series has a ship run by kids.

But I'm confused as to why Judau and Roux went to Jupiter?

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Originally Posted by Nvis

I was kind of when the new Argama was run by kids. Then I thought, no other series has a ship run by kids.

But I'm confused as to why Judau and Roux went to Jupiter?

Well, quite a bit of the White Base crew could be considered "kids" given several of the character's ages. And the Nahel Argama still had some "veteran" Argama crew members on board that knew what they were doing too (like Torres, Astonage and such) so they weren't ALL kids, lol.

As for Judau and Roux going to Jupiter...who knows?

I guess part of the reason could be to get away from the Earth Sphere, given Judau's witness to the greed and selfishness of the Federation (as shown with Bright's meeting of some bigwig officers) and even the AEUG at points (with how they and the Federation fleet arrived SO late that the Neo Zeon War was all but over already with Haman and Glemy's deaths). Or perhaps it could've been some Newtype calling of some sorts.

[chanchimi]

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

I actually thought Judau was one of the more "realistic" main characters in terms of piloting.

Exactly! That's what I was thinking as well. In terms of personality, the ZZ Argama kids I'd say (as goofy as they are) are pretty realistic. When I think of most kids I know, and putting them on a warship wouldn't make them serious and or depressed. They'd probably be just like the ZZ group, which is easy-going and goofy for the most part.

But yeah, Judau was pretty realistic in piloting. He still picked it up rather quickly, he didn't start off as good of a pilot as Amuro was when he first piloted the Gundam.

[yusawateva]

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

We also can't forget that, compared to the Zeta Gundam in general, the ZZ is a BIG step up in each area of general performance while Haman is still using just the normal Qubeley. Sometimes MS performance CAN make up for difference in piloting skill.

i thought haman's quebeley in ZZ is a MK.II, in her colors

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

Originally Posted by yusawateva

i thought haman's quebeley in ZZ is a MK.II, in her colors

The Qubeleys that Puru and Purur two pilot are both MK II models built after Haman's Qubeley.

Haman - AMX-004 Qubeley
Puru - AMX-004-2 Qubeley Mark II
Puru Two - AMX-004-3 Qubeley Mark II

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Yep, Pie and Pie Two's Qubeley Mark IIs were the only canon ones made. The rest were Qubeley Mass Production Types. Haman's was her original one from Zeta.

Even if she did have a Mark II painted in her colors, it wouldn't have made that big a difference as the ONLY differences the Mark IIs has over the original were 2 more funnels and, with Pie Two's Mark II, a Psycommu Controller Headset to be able to control it from outside the cockpit. Otherwise, performance-wise, they're exactly the same.

[elindir]

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

I actually thought Judau was one of the more "realistic" main characters in terms of piloting.

I wouldn't say realistic. In my opinion he was only made to look like an amateur to put even more emphasis on the comedic atmosphere of the show.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Originally Posted by elindir

I wouldn't say realistic. In my opinion he was only made to look like an amateur to put even more emphasis on the comedic atmosphere of the show.

Despite that, it actually makes much more sense overall considering how "expertly" night-newbie MS pilots pilot MS at first.

[justavisitor]

ZZ was probably my first gundam series...and my favorite gundam was zz gundam (it still is my top 5 XD)

I think the series is actually quite good...the first half is fun and the second half has more serious drama...and we see many character development from the series

the only element that is not good enough (in my opinion, of course) is the ending...it's like Zeon has to find a way to lose ...I expected a huge battle between AEUG and Zeon

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

ZZ was probably my first gundam series...and my favorite gundam was zz gundam (it still is my top 5 XD)

I think the series is actually quite good...the first half is fun and the second half has more serious drama...and we see many character development from the series

the only element that is not good enough (in my opinion, of course) is the ending...it's like Zeon has to find a way to lose ...I expected a huge battle between AEUG and Zeon

Well, when you think about it, it's pretty reminiscent of how the original Zeon and the Titans after more or less began crumbling; internal power struggles, except ZZ made it much greater in scale rather than simply the members and made it a full-scale civil war.

[elindir]

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

Despite that, it actually makes much more sense overall considering how "expertly" night-newbie MS pilots pilot MS at first.

It does, I agree. However, due to the "comicness" of the scenes I never considered this an attempt to make ZZ more realistic than the earlier shows. If they did, probably they would have done it in another fashion, not like this.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Yeah, but at least the comical parts help lighten up people from how Zeta ended (though, admittingly, some I didn't care that they really died like Katz XD).

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

The comical aspect of the show is what makes it one of my favorite Gundam shows. I grew to like many of the characters because of their lighthearted goofy qualities. That made the deaths of some of those characters harder on me.

As for negatives, some comedy seemed forced and unnecessary at times, and the deaths of certain characters were poorly handled. For instance no one seemed to show much emotion after Puru sacrificed herself for Judau. Also Puru Two (My favorite character) seemed ignored, just slumped over in that chair dead.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Part of it is probably related to why ZZ was changed at the end because of Char's Counterattack getting the ok to produce.

Judau definitely did show emotion since, in ways, Pie did worm her way into his heart as a little sister-type...otherwise, I doubt he'd get SO pissed off that the bio-sensor would completely re-energize AND supercharge the ZZ to such an extent.

But yeah, Pie Two definitely was all but ignored in the end x_x.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

Part of it is probably related to why ZZ was changed at the end because of Char's Counterattack getting the ok to produce.

Judau definitely did show emotion since, in ways, Pie did worm her way into his heart as a little sister-type...otherwise, I doubt he'd get SO pissed off that the bio-sensor would completely re-energize AND supercharge the ZZ to such an extent.

But yeah, Pie Two definitely was all but ignored in the end x_x.

I was more refering to the fact that Judau kind of got over Puru's death pretty fast. I mean the emotional impact didn't give as much of a punch as I would have expected, but yes there was some there as you pointed out.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

I guess he's not quite like Kamille in that emotional aspect bit where Kamille was so upset that people on the Argama weren't all tearing up and mourning over people's deaths earlier in the series.

I guess Judau learned to accept it earlier on since there were bigger problems right in front of them, but when it came to his real little sister dying, that would definitely leave an impact on pretty much anyone themselves. x_x

[justavisitor]

Talking about Pie II...did Pie II survive at the end?? I really hope she did...she either fainted or died in the last episode...I hope it's the former