Gundam ZZ Discussion

[Rawinder]

Carried over from the 0079 discussion thread:

Originally Posted by brightman

I disagree in calling the tone "childish"... Something light-hearted or slap-sticky does not mean "childish"... I find shows that tend to be preachy and lack subtlety much more childish, and that even applies to some of the other Gundam series.

I also don't think it "disrespects" anything. Its meant to be a different show from Zeta, and just because that particular show took itself way too seriously, doesn't mean its sequel have to. After all, even MSG itself had its fair-share of slapstick and laughs.

I would consider ZZ's treatment of characters like Bright, Haman, Yazan--and just the whole situation in general--as both disrespectful and a betrayal of what happened in Zeta. If you didn't feel the same, then more power to you for being able to enjoy the show.

[elindir]

[QUOTE=Rawinder;2606016]Carried over from the 0079 discussion thread:



I would consider ZZ's treatment of characters like Bright, Haman, Yazan--and just the whole situation in general--as both disrespectful and a betrayal of what happened in Zeta. /QUOTE]
I feel the same. When I think about ZZ, the first thing that comes to my mind is Bright chasing chickens.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Rawinder

I would consider ZZ's treatment of characters like Bright, Haman, Yazan--and just the whole situation in general--as both disrespectful and a betrayal of what happened in Zeta. If you didn't feel the same, then more power to you for being able to enjoy the show.

Power to me? I just wish that you don't have to take everything in life as seriously as this.

I found the idea of a super uptight guy like Bright chasing chickens quite hilarious, thank you very much. And a spiteful guy like Yazan deserved being the butt of jokes. And what's wrong with what they did to Haman? The fact that she got overly attached to Judau? Well, she got overly attached to Char too, so its not exactly new.

I don't find any of that "disrespectful". In fact, I find it quite silly that one can "disrespect" a fictional character.

[Rawinder]

Originally Posted by brightman

Power to me? I just wish that you don't have to take everything in life as seriously as this.

Uh...it was just an expression.

And I don't think it's silly to say you can disrespect a fictional character. If you have a character act a certain way, and then put them in a situation where they're acting stupidly or out-of-character for the sake of humor/plot contrivance/whatever, then it feels like a slap in the face to both the character and the person invested in that character. I'm not talking about just Gundam here, but any tv show.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Rawinder

Uh...it was just an expression.

I know, but IMO its not me, its you.

And I don't think it's silly to say you can disrespect a fictional character. If you have a character act a certain way, and then put them in a situation where they're acting stupidly or out-of-character for the sake of humor/plot contrivance/whatever, then it feels like a slap in the face to both the character and the person invested in that character. I'm not talking about just Gundam here, but any tv show.

How did they act out of character? Bright for example had always been a silly guy when placed in circumstances that he isn't used to, even back in MSG... Actually, he had always been a silly guy in general, slapping and punching everybody like no tomorrow. Yazan in Zeta was just a one-dimensional asshole and its nice to see his more barbaric hoboness take over in ZZ. Haman? I already said why she didn't act out of character.

[Rawinder]

I don't think Bright beating the insubordination out of people can really be construed as silly. Yazan was a straight up killer in Zeta, so watching him monkey around in ZZ (parachuting with a jacket?) was out of character. And as for Haman, I don't think her relationship with Char is all that comparable to the one with Judau, but that wasn't really what I was getting at in the first place. While her having any sort of relationship with Judau is stupid, it's the way she goes out that disappoints me more; it was a pretty anti-climactic end to her character and to the show.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Rawinder

Yazan was a straight up killer in Zeta, so watching him monkey around in ZZ (parachuting with a jacket?) was out of character.

We never saw what Yazan was like outside of the battlefield in Zeta... Plus he's still the same killer in ZZ that he was, he did killed Saegusa, a survivor of Gryps and Bright's punches. So his personality in ZZ fits his nutcase persona.

And as for Haman, I don't think her relationship with Char is all that comparable to the one with Judau, but that wasn't really what I was getting at in the first place. While her having any sort of relationship with Judau is stupid, it's the way she goes out that disappoints me more; it was a pretty anti-climactic end to her character and to the show.

Why is her having a relationship with Judau stupid? Its no different from the relationship between Amuro and Lalah, for example. Newtypes can connect with each other, and Judau happened to be a powerful one that Haman connected with.

As for the anti-climatic ending, that goes for most of Tomino's villains, unfortunately. I wouldn't single out Haman when Char just abruptly disappears in CCA with the stupidest last line, Katejina just disappears from the final battle after Uso waves his shiny wings (only to resurface as a blind begger for no reason), and Gym Ghingnham decides to duel Loran for no reason and stupidly gets wrapped up in a cocoon, also seemingly for no reason.

[SonOfHeaven]

I don't think the staff were disrespectful in the treatment of Haman. She just happened to be very attached to Judau, it happens to newtypes all the time(She kept trying to get Judau to join her many times even during the last fight). Her end was an disappointment but hey she died with an smile.

[Rawinder]

Originally Posted by brightman

We never saw what Yazan was like outside of the battlefield in Zeta... Plus he's still the same killer in ZZ that he was, he did killed Saegusa, a survivor of Gryps and Bright's punches. So his personality in ZZ fits his nutcase persona.

But that's the thing, Yazan wasn't a nutcase in Zeta, he was a soldier. He may have enjoyed taking out his enemies, but he never acted out and out crazy like he did in ZZ.

Originally Posted by brightman

Why is her having a relationship with Judau stupid? Its no different from the relationship between Amuro and Lalah, for example. Newtypes can connect with each other, and Judau happened to be a powerful one that Haman connected with.

Haman is a completely different person from Lalah though. Besides, Haman having any sort of attraction to Judau is totally unbelievable, she's 7 years older than him!

Originally Posted by brightman

As for the anti-climatic ending, that goes for most of Tomino's villains, unfortunately. I wouldn't single out Haman when Char just abruptly disappears in CCA with the stupidest last line, Katejina just disappears from the final battle after Uso waves his shiny wings (only to resurface as a blind begger for no reason), and Gym Ghingnham decides to duel Loran for no reason and stupidly gets wrapped up in a cocoon, also seemingly for no reason.

I haven't finished Turn A, so I can't comment on that. But in CCA and Victory, you still had a final battle where the two went all out against each other. Amuro and Char's battle reaches a climax in CCA, and Uso's battle with Chronicle and Katejina reaches a climax. Judau and Haman's final battle just kind of fizzled out; Haman didn't really go all out and Judau didn't even really defeat her. It was just a really weak ending to the whole thing.

And that anti-climactic remark goes for the whole finale. In addition to the Judau/Haman fight, I was also disappointed with how the Mark II and Zeta go down so easily and lamely. Though at least the Zeta still got one last shot off, which was badass.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Rawinder

But that's the thing, Yazan wasn't a nutcase in Zeta, he was a soldier. He may have enjoyed taking out his enemies, but he never acted out and out crazy like he did in ZZ.

Again, he wasn't shown outside of the battlefield in Zeta. And while the nutcase comment was a jab at him, he wasn't exactly "crazy" in ZZ either.

Haman is a completely different person from Lalah though. Besides, Haman having any sort of attraction to Judau is totally unbelievable, she's 7 years older than him!

Age doesn't mean crap in anime nor in real life, especially when your dealing with mental attraction/Newtype understanding. This ain't sexual attraction.

[jonli]

But all in all, back on topic. I don't think naming something worse can justify the mistakes of ZZ. The fact remains that it built a certain atmosphere and developed characters in a certain way in Z, just to completley change the mood of it in ZZ. That doesn't always mean bad writing, but it always alienates your original fans, and that's never a good thing.

Speaking of Haman, I really didn't enjoy the way she went out as well. In fact I didn't think Judau was a worthy final boss for her.

[brightman]

But all in all, back on topic. I don't think naming something worse can justify the mistakes of ZZ. The fact remains that it built a certain atmosphere and developed characters in a certain way in Z, just to completley change the mood of it in ZZ. That doesn't always mean bad writing, but it always alienates your original fans, and that's never a good thing.

Again it's a different show. It's not meant to be Zeta continuation. It basically have a totally different cast. It involves totally different people. So what you guys are complaining about is basically the same as complaining that Zeta ruined MSG because Char is no longer a badass antagonist who love to doublecross people.

Speaking of Haman, I really didn't enjoy the way she went out as well. In fact I didn't think Judau was a worthy final boss for her.

She certainly didn't go out well, but I think the finalbattle really put her in a good light and made her a lot more likeable. You can't say the same for every final battle..

[jonli]

Originally Posted by brightman

Again it's a different show. It's not meant to be Zeta continuation. It basically have a totally different cast. It involves totally different people. So what you guys are complaining about is basically the same as complaining that Zeta ruined MSG because Char is no longer a badass antagonist who love to doublecross people.


She certainly didn't go out well, but I think the finalbattle really put her in a good light and made her a lot more likeable. You can't say the same for every final battle..

While I agree that Double Zeta is a different show than Zeta. Zeta actually continues the themes provided in the first Gundam. Char was kept in character, he still had his charming vibe, and his menacing attitude. He was every bit the same Char we saw at the end of MSG. He didn't double cross because he didn't have any Zabis left to kill at all costs, he's fighting for a different cause now, less personal. Besides we also have to note that Zeta although is basically a sequel of MSG, came a lot later. While Double Zeta came immediately after Zeta, the audience still had that bitter cliff-hanger-ending at the edge of their lips.

Even if it wasn't intended as a sequel, it sure is advertised as one. If it wasn't a sequel at all then it is a trap.

Double Zeta also tried to change the tone of the series in the second half, making it more dark and gritty like Zeta. I don't know what the real reasons of the sudden change is for, but from what I can tell it seems like Tomino is just trying to salvage what's left of the show.

[4Tran]

Deleted comments referring to the endings of non-ZZ shows.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Rawinder

I would consider ZZ's treatment of characters like Bright, Haman, Yazan--and just the whole situation in general--as both disrespectful and a betrayal of what happened in Zeta. If you didn't feel the same, then more power to you for being able to enjoy the show.

I didn't mind the ZZ treatment of Yazan, but I do mind the way that Haman and Bright were treated - not so much because of any comedic roles they were given, but more because the show portrayed them as basically incompetent while simultaneously trying to say that they were very capable. Admittedly, I sort of feel that way about Haman in Zeta as well.

Originally Posted by brightman

Age doesn't mean crap in anime nor in real life, especially when your dealing with mental attraction/Newtype understanding. This ain't sexual attraction.

The age bit should be irrelevant, but Newtype relationships have always been stupid. They're basically a technique of positing character development without the actual development. As a result, they've always been as inauthentic as hell, and the Haman-Judau connection is no exception.

Originally Posted by jonli

But all in all, back on topic. I don't think naming something worse can justify the mistakes of ZZ.

That's quite true. The only place that making comparisons to other works has is to counter any accusations that ZZ is unique in having a poor ending. As I don't think that anyone is positing that, there's no need to elaborate on the topic.

Originally Posted by jonli

The fact remains that it built a certain atmosphere and developed characters in a certain way in Z, just to completley change the mood of it in ZZ. That doesn't always mean bad writing, but it always alienates your original fans, and that's never a good thing.

While that is true, it's also within the perogative of the creator to make something different. While I thought that the light-hearted early parts in ZZ weren't all that funny, I don't think that there's anything fundamentally wrong with them either.

Originally Posted by jonli

Double Zeta also tried to change the tone of the series in the second half, making it more dark and gritty like Zeta. I don't know what the real reasons of the sudden change is for, but from what I can tell it seems like Tomino is just trying to salvage what's left of the show.

The most likely reason was that the creators got the go-ahead for Char's Counterattack, and so they scrapped the plans for what they had originally intended for the ZZ ending and went with something new. The other side of the equation is that the early Gundam shows weren't particularly planned out to begin with. If we go by Zeta, ZZ and even Victory, it looks like the creators just build bare skeletons of what the plot will sort of be like, and then just make sure that the episodic content doesn't conflict with that skeleton too much. Mobile Suit Gundam is the exception to this as it seems to have some real progression planned out from the beginning.

[Rawinder]

Originally Posted by jonli

The fact remains that it built a certain atmosphere and developed characters in a certain way in Z, just to completley change the mood of it in ZZ. That doesn't always mean bad writing, but it always alienates your original fans, and that's never a good thing.

If the writers are inconsistent with tone and characterization, then I would call that bad writing.

Originally Posted by brightman

Again, he wasn't shown outside of the battlefield in Zeta. And while the nutcase comment was a jab at him, he wasn't exactly "crazy" in ZZ either.

I refer back to my "parachuting with a jacket" example.

Originally Posted by brightman

Age doesn't mean crap in anime nor in real life, especially when your dealing with mental attraction/Newtype understanding. This ain't sexual attraction.

A 21-year-old woman interested in a 14-year-old boy? Like I said, totally unrealistic.

Originally Posted by brightman

Again it's a different show. It's not meant to be Zeta continuation. It basically have a totally different cast. It involves totally different people. So what you guys are complaining about is basically the same as complaining that Zeta ruined MSG because Char is no longer a badass antagonist who love to doublecross people.

Of course ZZ is meant to be a continuation of Zeta. It involves and builds off the same characters, same plot points, and same setting left at the end of Zeta. The first episode is a recap of Zeta. The second episode picks up immediately where Zeta left off. Hell, "Zeta" is even in the name of the show!

And as jonli pointed out, I don't think your example works. Char is still fighting against the Earth on the behalf of spacenoids; the only people he double-crossed were the Zabis, who are all dead; and he's still quite the badass.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Rawinder

If the writers are inconsistent with tone and characterization, then I would call that bad writing.

But given that they are different works and that their respective narratives are different, why do you demand that ZZ be lockstep with Zeta?

[Rawinder]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

But given that they are different works and that their respective narratives are different, why do you demand that ZZ be lockstep with Zeta?

Because ZZ doesn't happen in a vacuum. It is a sequel to Zeta. The fact that it occurs in the same setting as Zeta and uses some of the same characters as Zeta, but is inconsistent with Zeta in tone and characterization, is a detriment in my eyes.

I'm not sure why you're disagreeing with me here, though, I thought we were on the same side! :P

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Rawinder

If the writers are inconsistent with tone and characterization, then I would call that bad writing.

Inconsistent with tone over two shows is not bad writing. As for inconsistent characterization, I disagree, as already pointed out.

I refer back to my "parachuting with a jacket" example.

Uso did something similar in Victory. Is he crazy?

A 21-year-old woman interested in a 14-year-old boy? Like I said, totally unrealistic.

Newtypes are not realistic, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Of course ZZ is meant to be a continuation of Zeta. It involves and builds off the same characters, same plot points, and same setting left at the end of Zeta. The first episode is a recap of Zeta. The second episode picks up immediately where Zeta left off. Hell, "Zeta" is even in the name of the show!

It features a new cast, concerns a totally different conflict and by all intents have a totally different plotline. It has different writers, a different character designer, different mecha designers, etc., and most of all, its NOT "Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam, Season 2", so its a different show.

Of course, you can say the same exact thing about Zeta being a continuation of MSG too. But Zeta is not MSG, Season 2 either, even though its also got a totally different tone from it. Its noticably darker and overly serious, and in fact, that was a big complaint of TV viewers back then, and a big reason why it wasn't as popular with viewers as the first MSG (according to Tomino)

And as jonli pointed out, I don't think your example works. Char is still fighting against the Earth on the behalf of spacenoids; the only people he double-crossed were the Zabis, who are all dead; and he's still quite the badass.

Right, but there was a change in how he was depicted, just like Haman and Yazan and so on. Again, I don't think their personalities or what they stood for have changed either. I was directly addressing your criticism that their change in depictions have somehow "disrespected" them.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The most likely reason was that the creators got the go-ahead for Char's Counterattack, and so they scrapped the plans for what they had originally intended for the ZZ ending and went with something new. The other side of the equation is that the early Gundam shows weren't particularly planned out to begin with. If we go by Zeta, ZZ and even Victory, it looks like the creators just build bare skeletons of what the plot will sort of be like, and then just make sure that the episodic content doesn't conflict with that skeleton too much. Mobile Suit Gundam is the exception to this as it seems to have some real progression planned out from the beginning.

That's not true though. The shift in tone in ZZ was planned from the beginning, and Tomino's original planned story for it doesn't vary much until way past the supposed "shift" to the more Zeta-like tone...

IMO there was really not much of a Zeta-like atmosphere in the show anyway. Characters were still resorting to slapstick. A lot of sneaking around and playful antics that were noticably more light-hearted. The Tigerbaum arc was anything but Zeta-like. Just because there was a noticibly darker tone, doesn't mean they were trying to recreate Zeta. In fact, Tomino already said one of the reasons why ZZ isn't more like Zeta was because he didn't like that it was way too depressing for people.

[Rawinder]

Originally Posted by brightman

Inconsistent with tone over two shows is not bad writing.

It is if one show is a direct sequel to another. Why do you think the Ewoks in Return of the Jedi got such a bad rap?

Originally Posted by brightman

Uso did something similar in Victory. Is he crazy?

No, just a stupid kid.

Originally Posted by brightman

Newtypes are not realistic, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

I think I was pretty clear with what I was getting at, but I was half-joking anyway, so it's not like it's that big a point of contention for me.

Originally Posted by brightman

It features a new cast, concerns a totally different conflict and by all intents have a totally different plotline. It has different writers, a different character designer, different mecha designers, etc., and most of all, its NOT "Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam, Season 2", so its a different show.

Just because it had some different people working on it doesn't make it any less of a sequel. Like I said, the first episode of ZZ is entirely a recap of Zeta and the second episode picks up right after Zeta. If that's not an indication of ZZ being a sequel, I don't know what is.

Originally Posted by brightman

Of course, you can say the same exact thing about Zeta being a continuation of MSG too. But Zeta is not MSG, Season 2 either, even though its also got a totally different tone from it. Its noticably darker and overly serious, and in fact, that was a big complaint of TV viewers back then, and a big reason why it wasn't as popular with viewers as the first MSG (according to Tomino)

MSG was plenty serious too, it's not like Zeta is that much of a departure in tone; and personally, with the exception of the last handful of episodes, I didn't think Zeta was all that much darker anyway. And no, Zeta isn't "MSG Season 2," but that's because it came out several years afterward (and even with that gap in time, it was still consistent with MSG's characters). ZZ, on the other hand, started immediately after Zeta, which makes its inconsistencies with MSG/Zeta's characters all the more glaring.

I also find it hard to believe that Zeta was at all unpopular with viewers. All I've ever heard is praise for Zeta, many people calling it the best Gundam series. The fact that the movies were as successful as they were, 20 years after the series came out, is a testament to how popular the show is.

Originally Posted by brightman

Right, but there was a change in how he was depicted, just like Haman and Yazan and so on. Again, I don't think their personalities or what they stood for have changed either. I was directly addressing your criticism that their change in depictions have somehow "disrespected" them.

The only change in how Char was depicted was that he became one of the "good guys" (and that has more to do with the show's role reversal in the Earth vs space conflict than anything else). The show never trampled over his character, or made him into the butt of jokes for the sake of some lame humor, the way ZZ did with its characters.



Anyway, at this point I'm just repeating myself. I can't really make myself any clearer than I already have, and if you're not going to acknowledge something like ZZ being a sequel to Zeta, then there's no point in me continuing. No offense intended, it just seems that the debate is going in circles now.