Why do some manga fans blatantly lie about what is in a manga?

[Question]

Not sure if this is the right forum to post this...

Here's an example : I ask whether a particular series is a harem series. People tell me its not. I look at the first few chapters and the MC instantly gets a party full of scantily clad hot girls who are all fawning over him.

When i go back to the original people and say "hey, you said this series isnt a harem, but it has all these hot girls fawning over the MC in the first few chapters, whats up with that?", they get upset and start attacking me, saying things like "you must be blind", "stop lying!" or they just move goal posts with "stop complaining, if you dont like it, dont read it!!!".

Another common example is when people tell me that "the MC isn't OP at all", and then in the first three chapters, he gets a "cheat" which instantly makes him stronger than veteran adventurers. Same thing happens when I point out that the MC is OP...I get attacked.

Sometimes i get weird responses like "oh the MC isnt OP because...God (or some other background charater) in the setting is much stronger than him" or "its not a harem because the MC doesn't have sex with the girls". It's like they are doing mental gymnastics or something.

This happens with random people on manga sites, its not like the same 3 guys that I know IRL or anything like that. I just dont get why these people do this? Its not like they are making money by selling the manga, they have no incentive to lie about a manga's content...

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Question

Not sure if this is the right forum to post this...

Here's an example : I ask whether a particular series is a harem series. People tell me its not. I look at the first few chapters and the MC instantly gets a party full of scantily clad hot girls who are all fawning over him.

When i go back to the original people and say "hey, you said this series isnt a harem, but it has all these hot girls fawning over the MC in the first few chapters, whats up with that?", they get upset and start attacking me, saying things like "you must be blind", "stop lying!" or they just move goal posts with "stop complaining, if you dont like it, dont read it!!!".

Another common example is when people tell me that "the MC isn't OP at all", and then in the first three chapters, he gets a "cheat" which instantly makes him stronger than veteran adventurers. Same thing happens when I point out that the MC is OP...I get attacked.

Sometimes i get weird responses like "oh the MC isnt OP because...God (or some other background charater) in the setting is much stronger than him" or "its not a harem because the MC doesn't have sex with the girls". It's like they are doing mental gymnastics or something.

This happens with random people on manga sites, its not like the same 3 guys that I know IRL or anything like that. I just dont get why these people do this? Its not like they are making money by selling the manga, they have no incentive to lie about a manga's content...

Pretty sure this belongs in General Anime.

Anyway it may just be a difference of standards. I'd like to know just what series people "lied" to you about for reference. I mean, some might not think it "harem" if the hero is only interested in one specific girl and the rest are just interference, or it could really be a pseudo-harem like GJ-bu, where there is no romantic content at all aside from one or two spots (a guy and a girl doesn't on its own amount to a romance, and two guys or girls don't automatically amount to BL/yuri, so a guy and several girls doesn't on its own amount to harem). Same goes with OP, it could be a matter of perspective. In most worlds Goku and Vegeta would be considered OP, but in the Dragon Ball universe the enemies/obstacles they're consistently faced with are so far beyond them that they have to grow even stronger to manage. Are they absurdly strong? Yes. Are they OP? Depends on your definition. I'd say a guy with a minor amount of magic would be OP if the power is rule-breaking for that world and he never/rarely faces any threat that can't easily be stopped. On the other hand, I wouldn't consider a person with the power to level mountains to be OP if it's hardly uncommon for him to face enemies who eat stars.

Ultimately, it's a matter of perspective. Rather than treat them like liars or something, maybe just try and be a bit more clear about what you feel does and doesn't constitute "OP", "harem", etc. It swings both ways after all; if you suggested those shows to someone who wanted an OP harem protagonist they might've come back to you complaining that the guy never has any relationships with the girls and is constantly getting beaten up by God.

[stray]

Harem and power fantasy have a lot of negative connotations these days, so it makes sense people want to distance from those labels.

[Question]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Pretty sure this belongs in General Anime.

Anyway it may just be a difference of standards. I'd like to know just what series people "lied" to you about for reference. I mean, some might not think it "harem" if the hero is only interested in one specific girl and the rest are just interference, or it could really be a pseudo-harem like GJ-bu, where there is no romantic content at all aside from one or two spots (a guy and a girl doesn't on its own amount to a romance, and two guys or girls don't automatically amount to BL/yuri, so a guy and several girls doesn't on its own amount to harem). Same goes with OP, it could be a matter of perspective. In most worlds Goku and Vegeta would be considered OP, but in the Dragon Ball universe the enemies/obstacles they're consistently faced with are so far beyond them that they have to grow even stronger to manage. Are they absurdly strong? Yes. Are they OP? Depends on your definition. I'd say a guy with a minor amount of magic would be OP if the power is rule-breaking for that world and he never/rarely faces any threat that can't easily be stopped. On the other hand, I wouldn't consider a person with the power to level mountains to be OP if it's hardly uncommon for him to face enemies who eat stars.

Ultimately, it's a matter of perspective. Rather than treat them like liars or something, maybe just try and be a bit more clear about what you feel does and doesn't constitute "OP", "harem", etc. It swings both ways after all; if you suggested those shows to someone who wanted an OP harem protagonist they might've come back to you complaining that the guy never has any relationships with the girls and is constantly getting beaten up by God.

I dont remember the exact titles off hand but they were the usual isekai titles. You know the type, ordinary japanese highschooler gets isekaied and gets a cheat and a party full of hot girls in 3 chapters and he is stronger than s-ranked adventurers or something. And every arc is about him beating up some "bad guy" and adding a new girl to his harem who instantly falls in love with him.

The strange part is when i go back to these people and tell them that the series isnt what they described, they lose their shit and start screaming insults at me, accusing me of lying, etc. Its impossible to have an actual discussion with them where we give examples to backup our arguments, etc. And if its on some place like reddit with a voting system, i just get mass downvoted as well.

Edit : Oh one title i can think of is "The Exiled Reincarnated Heavy Knight Is Unrivaled In Game Knowledge", so i looked at the first few chapters and even though he's supposed to be "weak", in one afternoon he leveled up and became strong enough to tank a raid boss. When i pointed that out and said "hey, you said he wasnt OP, but he became this strong in just one afternoon while everyone else trains for way longer to reach the same level...", i just got attacked, accused of lying, blind, etc.

[Question]

Originally Posted by stray

Harem and power fantasy have a lot of negative connotations these days, so it makes sense people want to distance from those labels.

Then why recommend it in the first place though, since that would give them away?

Its like, you want to pretend that you dont like fish...yet you recommend people to go to a fish n chips shop and lie by telling them that its a burger place...and of course when they get there, they will realise its actually a fish n chips shop...and when they come back and tell you that its a fish n chips shop, you start attacking them....

Does that make sense to you?

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Question

I dont remember the exact titles off hand but they were the usual isekai titles. You know the type, ordinary japanese highschooler gets isekaied and gets a cheat and a party full of hot girls in 3 chapters and he is stronger than s-ranked adventurers or something. And every arc is about him beating up some "bad guy" and adding a new girl to his harem who instantly falls in love with him.

The strange part is when i go back to these people and tell them that the series isnt what they described, they lose their shit and start screaming insults at me, accusing me of lying, etc. Its impossible to have an actual discussion with them where we give examples to backup our arguments, etc. And if its on some place like reddit with a voting system, i just get mass downvoted as well.

Edit : Oh one title i can think of is "The Exiled Reincarnated Heavy Knight Is Unrivaled In Game Knowledge", so i looked at the first few chapters and even though he's supposed to be "weak", in one afternoon he leveled up and became strong enough to tank a raid boss. When i pointed that out and said "hey, you said he wasnt OP, but he became this strong in just one afternoon while everyone else trains for way longer to reach the same level...", i just got attacked, accused of lying, blind, etc.

Haven't read that one, but just going by that title I again suspect it might be a difference of perspective. Like, did he have an ability that let him level, or did he just have knowledge of some workarounds that let him grow fast? Makes me think of Mother's Basement's analysis of isekai. Instead of just saying OP, he refers to multiple "difficulty modes". There's "God Mode", the one we see most these days where the hero is just given some sort of ability at the start that makes him unstoppable, "Grind Mode", where the hero has the potential to gain that kind of power if he works hard enough (see Mushoku Tensei), "Cheat Mode", where some knowledge, talent or ability that the hero even had in the real world makes him unstoppable in this world, regardless of whether he was strong or not in the previous one, and "No Mode", where the hero doesn't have any ability he lacked in the previous world and doesn't experience any benefit from things he could already do (see Now and Then, Here and There for a dark example). Going purely by the title and the fact that he leveled fast I'd guess that that one was a cross between Grind and Cheat modes, with him gaining power through hard work with some boost from gaming knowledge that helped him out. Honestly though, if your problem is being unrivaled, that word on its own should've warned you off.

In some cases it can be a little hard to judge though, if you ask me. Take, for instance, The Wise Mana's Grandchild. This one does very quickly have the hero become absurdly powerful, partly by skipping his grinding years. However, it also makes it clear that this isn't some God-given special talent but just something gained through training under great teachers along with scientific knowledge that let him try things others hadn't thought of; furthermore, it makes it clear that he's far from special by not only having enemies that he has to work hard to face but also showing others with talent rapidly catching up with him just by changing their training to match that used by the Wise Man and Guru who trained the MC. I could see you considering him OP since he's still the strongest character in the story, surpassing even his teachers. But I could also easily see people arguing against the OP categorization since there's not the slightest hint of "God Mode" unearned power and it's made clear that he's not really any more special than his peers.

And again, the same goes for harem. There are a lot of variants to harem series. There may be some that wouldn't consider The World God Only Knows to be a harem, since the majority of the girls forget him immediately after they're "conquered" and even after a few remember he still never shows any actual romantic interest in any save one.

[stray]

Originally Posted by Question

Then why recommend it in the first place though, since that would give them away?

To be honest a lot of people are kinda shit when it comes to recommendations. Though in fairness there's not that many fantasy or isekai series that don't have a power fantasy element.

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

And again, the same goes for harem. There are a lot of variants to harem series. There may be some that wouldn't consider The World God Only Knows to be a harem, since the majority of the girls forget him immediately after they're "conquered" and even after a few remember he still never shows any actual romantic interest in any save one.

Galge rules are an exception but in general almost every isekai and romcom has harem elements, some heavier than others. I think the SAO rule applies; it doesn't matter what the MC thinks if there's 3+ thirsty girls after him - its a harem.

Harem as a genre has really sort of faded, though I guess there's a few traditional ones still going like Date-A-Live.

[DragonOsman]

Has the harem genre really faded? I'm reading and have read some True Harem LNs, after all, and there's also an Isekai manga I'm reading that looks like it'll be a True Harem. Trinity Seven is likely a True Harem too.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by stray

To be honest a lot of people are kinda shit when it comes to recommendations. Though in fairness there's not that many fantasy or isekai series that don't have a power fantasy element.Galge rules are an exception but in general almost every isekai and romcom has harem elements, some heavier than others. I think the SAO rule applies; it doesn't matter what the MC thinks if there's 3+ thirsty girls after him - its a harem.

Harem as a genre has really sort of faded, though I guess there's a few traditional ones still going like Date-A-Live.

That's fine. As I said, it's a matter of perspective. I'd generally agree, but I could understand if people said otherwise, and as such I can see two people arguing and feeling that they're completely right and the other's either lying or blind. My best advice to OP would be to be a bit more explicit in what you do and don't mean. Don't just say "no harems, no overpowered protagonists", make it clear what's not OK. For instance, maybe say that you want the protagonist to be strong and heroic, but not stronger than veterans or able to catch up to them easily.

But I kind of wonder about how Question said they responded. If you come in saying "Hey, you said this wasn't X but it's obviously X", then people are going to feel like they're being accused, called liars, or blind, or in general "attacked", in which case it's not surprising that they'd respond in kind.

Either way, I'm going to have to call BS on the genre having faded. It's still popular and getting new stuff very frequently. It may be expanding a bit, growing a little more creative or taking on new varieties, but it's still very much present.

[stray]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

That's fine. As I said, it's a matter of perspective.

Someone did some surveys on r/anime pretty recently and its sort of shocking that some people consider Date-A-Live and Bakarina something other than a harem... and a few think Tsuki ga Kirei IS a harem...

I'm not talking about borderline cases, I'm talking about people specifically downplaying elements or obfuscating genres. Something like OreGairu is a good example of a series that more people than not would call a harem but fans sometimes get really offended if anyone calls it that.

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

Has the harem genre really faded? I'm reading and have read some True Harem LNs, after all, and there's also an Isekai manga I'm reading that looks like it'll be a True Harem. Trinity Seven is likely a True Harem too.

Do you mean "true harem" in terms of polygamy?

I'm comparing to harems of like 5-15 years ago; people's expectations are different and you can't really do an open ending after 15 years of syndication nowadays. And stuff like SAO and Monogatari made it possible to be a harem while the MC was in a monogamous relationship.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by stray

Someone did some surveys on r/anime pretty recently and its sort of shocking that some people consider Date-A-Live and Bakarina something other than a harem... and a few think Tsuki ga Kirei IS a harem...

I'm not talking about borderline cases, I'm talking about people specifically downplaying elements or obfuscating genres. Something like OreGairu is a good example of a series that more people than not would call a harem but fans sometimes get really offended if anyone calls it that.Do you mean "true harem" in terms of polygamy?

I'm comparing to harems of like 5-15 years ago; people's expectations are different and you can't really do an open ending after 15 years of syndication nowadays. And stuff like SAO and Monogatari made it possible to be a harem while the MC was in a monogamous relationship.

Well, honestly I could understand with SNAFU as well. I mean, you yourself said there have to be at least three love interests, and I don't think there are any significant love interests besides Yui and Yukino. Sure, there may be a couple other girls who crush on him, but to my recollection they're quite frequently absent and play a much more minor role in the story. If people don't see them as being serious love interests then it becomes a love triangle and nothing more.

It again comes down to perspective. If it's enough for a certain number of girls to like him, then it's harem. If they have to play a sufficient role in the story or have a sufficient amount of screen time or interaction, maybe not.

[Nachtwandler]

OreGairu has at least Iroha, who is also pretty prominient in later parts of the story.


I have a different issue related to the initial topic. Recently I had a couple of cases when I bumped into obviously false spoilers while skimming information regarding a few titles.

One example was when someone on TV-tropes blatantly made up that Hori got teen pregnancy and dropped from school in HoriMiya. I get that moderation of tropes/info added to title pages is pretty lax there but what was the reason to even do it to deceive the people?

[stray]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Well, honestly I could understand with SNAFU as well. I mean, you yourself said there have to be at least three love interests, and I don't think there are any significant love interests besides Yui and Yukino.

I never mentioned "significance" -- that's your goalpost, not mine -- but its kinda sad that chain smoking best girl Shizuka-sensei isn't "significant" enough for you. And there's Iroha too. Hachiman spends like half the series being flirty with girls other than Yui and Yukino, and if its on the fringe like that its probably not something to suggest to someone who absolutely doesn't want a harem, especially if you're going to be belligerent about labels after the fact.

You've always had first girl bias and such in harems but what you've got a lot of nowadays is a harem element without harem stakes. There's zero chance of Kirito going for Alice or Sinon over Asuna but you can still sell plenty of their merch. As I see it stuff like Oregairu is really built to fit into that grey area, as well as Rental Girlfriend and similar series. Maybe harems haven't died but they've definitely changed quite a bit.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by stray

I never mentioned "significance" -- that's your goalpost, not mine -- but its kinda sad that chain smoking best girl Shizuka-sensei isn't "significant" enough for you. And there's Iroha too. Hachiman spends like half the series being flirty with girls other than Yui and Yukino, and if its on the fringe like that its probably not something to suggest to someone who absolutely doesn't want a harem, especially if you're going to be belligerent about labels after the fact.

You've always had first girl bias and such in harems but what you've got a lot of nowadays is a harem element without harem stakes. There's zero chance of Kirito going for Alice or Sinon over Asuna but you can still sell plenty of their merch. As I see it stuff like Oregairu is really built to fit into that grey area, as well as Rental Girlfriend and similar series. Maybe harems haven't died but they've definitely changed quite a bit.

That's my point though: different people have different goalposts. To some, some character might not play a big enough role or be central enough to the storyline to be serious love interests/rivals. Some people might not include a character as a real love interest if they're not a "primary character". And some might include or exclude characters if they do or don't feel like that character has a crush on the hero (like, to the extent that I personally saw, I never saw any indication of romantic interest from Sensei to Hachiman). Either way, I haven't seen past the second season and it's been a while, so I won't claim to be an expert.

And SAO is also a good example of how different people might have different perspectives, since Kirito has a lot of admirers but he's clearly a one-woman man. This's especially true in the Aincrad arc, where those admirers don't stick around long. I even heard they have even less presence in the LN, though I haven't read it.

In any case, the point remains. Different people have different standards for what does and doesn't qualify as a harem, or OP, or any number of other terms. Thanks to this, people could completely agree about story but argue incessantly because their terminology differs. Thus why I said it might be better to be clear and specific on what one wants and simply say that something doesn't quite fit rather than accusing people of lying or not knowing what they're talking about, then getting mad when they respond with the same accusations.

[stray]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

In any case, the point remains. Different people have different standards for what does and doesn't qualify as a harem, or OP, or any number of other terms. Thanks to this, people could completely agree about story but argue incessantly because their terminology differs.

We're talking about recommendations here, your goal should probably be to recommend someone what they might like, not pushing your personal opinions onto as many people as possible. If there's not a consensus maybe don't recommend something that a lot of people could interpret as a harem to someone specifically looking to avoid harems, though in general you should really probably rethink giving recommendations at all if you can't be objective.

Whether that debate is meaningful or not the place for that debate is NOT with someone asking for recommendations.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by stray

We're talking about recommendations here, your goal should probably be to recommend someone what they might like, not pushing your personal opinions onto as many people as possible. If there's not a consensus maybe don't recommend something that a lot of people could interpret as a harem to someone specifically looking to avoid harems, though in general you should really probably rethink giving recommendations at all if you can't be objective.

Whether that debate is meaningful or not the place for that debate is NOT with someone asking for recommendations.

You do realize that people who have different perspectives won't automatically realize other people's perspectives right off the bat, right? I'm saying if you ask for a character that is or isn't OP or harem, then they'll respond based on how they define the terms unless they either know the asker's standards or the asker specifies it. Debate only happens when they realize that someone else thinks they're wrong, and in the recommendation page they may very well not realize this. And just because you see something as a certain thing doesn't mean that "a lot of people" see it the same way, or that they've conversed with enough people who see things differently to realize that their perspective isn't "standard". It's not "pushing your opinions on others", it's just going off of the standards you have: your own. And it's just as bad to respond to a person's attempt to offer appropriate material with accusations of dishonesty, delusion, attempts to force supposedly niche viewpoints on others, or just plain trolling. Most people who make recommendations are trying to earnestly help and give people something they'd like; they just don't necessarily realize that someone else would see the material differently. Not to mention that, even in debate, accusing people of lying or something is going to invite the same response back.

That said, I would agree you should be a little conscious if something might be seen differently. Like maybe "I know the hero here is powerful and grows powerful quickly, so it might not be what you're looking for, but because of X, Y and Z I thought it might be acceptable" or something. IF you feel like it's a great recommendation despite the questionable aspects, that is.

[stray]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

You do realize that people who have different perspectives won't automatically realize other people's perspectives right off the bat, right? I'm saying if you ask for a character that is or isn't OP or harem, then they'll respond based on how they define the terms unless they either know the asker's standards or the asker specifies it.

How is it your hypothetical recommender seems to be completely outside the anime/manga community? I'm not sure what you're picturing but the people giving recommendations tend to be genre savvy.

That said, I would agree you should be a little conscious if something might be seen differently. Like maybe "I know the hero here is powerful and grows powerful quickly, so it might not be what you're looking for, but because of X, Y and Z I thought it might be acceptable" or something. IF you feel like it's a great recommendation despite the questionable aspects, that is

I do agree with recommendations that come with a disclaimer like this.

Some of the crowd on Reddit can get a bit self important when it comes to recommendations, though the flowcharts they do on r/anime are pretty entertaining. I don't really do recommendations anymore unless people are looking for something specific like a yuri eroge with a yandere love interest or something.

[relentlessflame]

As others have said, I think the main point here is the difference between a connoisseur of a genre who makes very subtle distinctions in "sub-traits" and someone who is just trying to avoid broad themes entirely and doesn't care about these kinds of minute distinctions.

In other words, there's "harem anime" as a broad category that probably encompasses hundreds of works that can all be vaguely defined as "many eligible suitors fight over the romantic attention of one protagonist."

But then for people who people who've watched many of these shows, calling them all "harem" isn't precise enough because there are differences in the way the stories progress and resolve that make them distinct from one another. So this is where "harem" can actually be a "sub-category." (For people who really get into it, you get into distinctions between "true harem" vs. "false harem," whether it's really a love triangle or a harem, and so on.) People on this level don't think of these shows as belonging to a "harem anime" super-category anymore because they look at things in a much more granular way.

I think the problem with the premise here is that, when you ask for recommendations, some people might assume that you've already done broad research and understand the overall nature of the work enough to have accepted the "big picture" of what it's about. So when asking about a trait like "harem" or "OP protagonist" or whatever, they may assume you're not talking about the broad "super-category" level, but about the sub-trait minutia level -- the level of detail they are interested in as connoisseurs of the genre that distinguish broadly similar works from each other. I doubt it's out of some sort of intent to mislead or deceive. At worst people might not want to scare you off by having you assume it falls into the worst stereotypes of the traits someone's concerned about, but they may discount how bad it still is to people who really dislike that trait.

In the end, if you want an objective judgement on something, probably need more diversity of opinion than just existing fans of the work. You'd probably also want to hear the opinion of people who didn't like it, just to understand their reasons and see if it seems like a concern for you or not. Otherwise, can do more research on your own or give it the classic three-episode try. You're the only real judge of whether something will annoy you or not.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by stray

How is it your hypothetical recommender seems to be completely outside the anime/manga community? I'm not sure what you're picturing but the people giving recommendations tend to be genre savvy.I do agree with recommendations that come with a disclaimer like this.

Some of the crowd on Reddit can get a bit self important when it comes to recommendations, though the flowcharts they do on r/anime are pretty entertaining. I don't really do recommendations anymore unless people are looking for something specific like a yuri eroge with a yandere love interest or something.

I'm sorry, but I can't help but find it amusing that I'm being accused of making up recommenders who don't agree with you on what constitutes an OP or Harem story in a thread asking why so many recommenders respond to "give me a non-OP non-harem hero" with guys that easily outperform everyone, beat bad guy after bad guy and gain a rapidly-growing crowd of women begging for his hand.

And honestly, I generally don't even make requests unless they're specific enough that I couldn't find them on my own (for instance, stories with an older brother and younger sister with bad blood who manage to patch things up without romance). And to Question, again, I'd recommend a more precise request that specifies what you're good and bad with.

[Question]

I mean if you use "perspective" as an argument then you can justify anything. For example, someone could say that "LOTR isnt an adventure story, its a homo erotic story and the sword fight scenes are clearly analogies for sex. why? because from my perspective it is".

If in the first three chapters the MC gets a cheat that makes him one of the, if not THE strongest people in the setting, and someone tells me "no no, the MC isnt OP at all", im going to have to call BS on that. I dont care if some background character is referenced in the LN 5 volumes later as being stronger, it doesnt change how OP the MC is.

Its not like a battle shounen situation, where luffy may be strong but he is constantly fighting enemies stronger than himself and then powering up. The MC in these stories don't do that (because its not a battle shounen), they fight enemies weaker than themselves 95% of the time so that the author can do the usual "impossible...!!!! how could you be so strong??? BLARGH im dead" scenes over and over.

I mean, look at the level 9999 gacha series, the MC is level 9999, his harem is level 9999, and he's fighting enemies that are level 3000 or below and they cant even scratch the MC and his harem. How is he not OP?

And the fact that these guys can never bring up any real counter arguments and just resort to spamming personal attacks is also a dead give away that theres something wrong here. A normal discussion would be something like :

Me : I think this character is OP

They : I dont think they are, and this is why...

The actual "discussion" is :

Me : i think this character is OP

They : omg stop lying!!! are you blind or something??? the MC isnt OP at all!!! Downvote, DOWNVOTE!!!

They clearly have no interest in actually discussing it when someone points out they are wrong, clearly, discussion isnt their actual goal here. Maybe they just want to troll?